Mekkah vs 安室 奈美恵

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I've been waiting for this moment for a very long time. And now I purpose to challenge Mekkah into a debate. Winner takes all!

Normal rules, three posts each.

If your names not Mekkah or 安室 奈美恵 don't post.

Sophia VS Douglas

Choose your character and let's get it ON!

Edited November 3, 2008 by 安室 奈美恵

[Mekkah]

I honestly did not notice this thread earlier, or I would hav started ages ago. But it's ok. I got Sophia.

Both of those characters suck. And if a character sucks, then there have to be other motives to bring them into play, because if they don't have any, you're obviously better off just using a better combatant and be done with it.

First, we have supports. Supports benefit other units regardless of how much you suck, so these are obviously good reasons to use bad units.

Sophia has Fa, Igrene, Ray, Roy and Niime.

Fa is often in play due to her EXP rank hax, and when trained, she doesn't die to everything in the Mamkute chapter, where she's forced. And her attacking power is amazing, and after 4-5 extremely quick levels, she doesn't die that quickly anymore. This support is 30+3, so extremely fast (for comparison, Roy x Lance/Alan is 20+2, and Alan x Lance is 30+2), and Fa hardly has any other supports, so this one will definitely happen.

Igrene is Fa's only other realistic option, and also happens to be a support option for Sophia, and her second fastest support at that. Igrene herself is not amazing, but not bad either. At the very least, she provides you with an opportunity to use Miulgre without going to Sacae, and she doubles fairly well, including on those Ch21 Dragon Knights.

Ray is kind of an average unit, but if he's in play, he might want Sophia, despite the support being slow. Why? Because all he has is Lugh, and Lugh might even be full (or if he isn't, then Ray's only realistic option is Chad, who runs around looting things).

Roy probably doesn't want her, so I won't argue that. Niime is too late to really do anything with for her. Doesn't matter, Sophia can easily get full supports.

Douglas, however...has Elphin, Geese, Igrene, Percival, Cecilia and Lalum.

Elphin obviously won't be in play on a ranked run, since Echidna > Bartre, A route is easier than B route, L5 Gonzo > L11 Gonzo, and Lalum herself > Elphin, so he's out.

The support with Geese is rly slow, and Geese himself isn't extremely likely to be in play. The dude has to wait until Ch16 to promote (due to everyone wanting a Hero Crest), he has Spd issues, and heck, even if he were in play, he supports Lalum and Echidna earlier...so him being in play actually hurts Douglas, since he'll snag that B Lalum away.

Percival, at least, is a good unit, but he's too busy riding around the country with his 3 more mov and mov again to notice that he's supporting this turtle-turd.

Cecilia blows monkey dick, obviously. If we're going to use units like Sophia and Douglas, compounding the suck with someone like Cecilia is not a brilliant idea.

Finally, there's Lalum, who would definitely want her adopted father...too bad, she's full with A Echnida + B Geese if he's there, or else, C Roy. Yeah, Roy is missing a C, and all the other C options he has are terrible (except Marcus, who is only better than terrible because of early on). And Lalum happens to get nothing out of a Douglas support anyway. Olol, she's better in combat now, except she should never fight to begin with.

Sophia: A Fa/B Igrene or A Igrene/B Fa, doesn't matter much which.

Douglas: Maybe C Lalum, maybe some kind of support with Percival, but either way, it doesn't help anyone.

Advantage? Sophia.

What else do these characters do for you? Well, Sophia finds you a Guiding Ring in the desert, which pretty much cancels out her needing a promo item at all.

You might want to harp on Sophia's durability, but she doesn't care. All she has to do is get to 13/0 or so, and then promote. This is about the time that Douglas joins. (he joins at the start of 16x, Sophia promotes at the end of 16)

13/1 Sophia - B Igrene, B Fa

Flux: 25.6 atk, 9.6 AS, 110.0 hit, 19.1 crit - - 39.6 avo, 24.2 hp, 7.4 def, 18.6 res, 20.4 critavo

Nosferatu: 27.6 atk, 8.6 AS, 110.0 hit, 19.1 crit - - 37.6 avo, 24.2 hp, 7.4 def, 18.6 res, 20.4 critavo, sucks ur HPs

20/8 Douglas

Iron Axe: 31.0 atk, 11.0 AS, 100.3 hit, 7.3 crit - - 33.0 avo, 48.0 hp, 22.0 def, 7.0 res, 11.0 critavo

Now, you will undoubtly go "zomg Douglas wins",,,but that's because these stats are one side of the coin. First, we will look at offense.

Douglas has a 4-5 win in raw Atk, 2-3 if Sophia goes for Nosferatu. However, enemies in this game have huuge Def-Res gaps. Like Wyverns have almost maxed Def, but they fail to get past 4-5 Res. So it'll be Sophia doing more blow per blow. And one blow is all these characters are getting. Yes, Douglas is faster, but it's not going to help him double anything. Maybe Knights, but Sophia can double those as well, and they are famous for their extravagant Def-Res gaps. And Sophia wins Crt, and has more Hit...if Douglas wishes to use other weapons, he'll have to lower his Hit even more. Which sucks, since enemies have Avo in FE6.

Defense. Douglas wins normal parameters BUT BUT BUT Sophia has Nosferatu, which is an awesome tome in FE6. First, it's buyable in the desert map, where you just got Silver Card. Second, it only weighs her down by one. Third, it has as much hit as Flux. And obviously it drains HP. An enemy needs like 26 Atk to do more damage than Sophia can heal back, and they need like 32 to one-shot her. Those enemies are there, but they won't make up the vast majority, which means Sophia can use her second advantage: flexibility. With her 1-2 range and 6 mov versus Douglas' 1-range and 5 mov, she can simply look for a better position to attack from on player phase, to make sure she doesn't get attacked. Douglas is lucky if he keeps up with the group. And against magics, Sophia is never ever gonna die, and she has a 11 Res lead there, plus WTA against Sages.

Also, Sophia heals other people with staves. She makes them more durable by being near. Douglas can only provide a durability boost if he prevents others from being attacked, but that's hard when you only have 5 mov while some others have 6 and most other good units (Miledy, Alan, Lance, Percival, Clarine, whoever has your Boots) even have 8. Also, staves provide free EXP and such. Which is just another stacked win for Sophia...she helps the EXP rank massively, while Douglas hurts it.

One more factor: this game's Ch16 Secret Shop has Angelic Robes in store. You're going to visit it anyway because you will be short on promo items for everyone, so may as well buy some Angelic Robes eh? They're only 4000G with Silver Card, and Funds is mad easy in this game. The availability of those things dimnishes Douglas' concrete physical durability some more (as if it's needed).

In endgame, it only gets better for Sophia. She is 7 levels lower, and has staves plus better offense, so naturally she'll grow more levels, and her growths are much better. If Douglas lost before, he will get crushed now.

helping supports, EXP rank, staves, better offense, Nosferatu, higher Res > better concrete physical durability

Sophia > Douglas

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Something tells me that this isn't going to end well. w/e, I'll give it my best shot.

First, we have supports. Supports benefit other units regardless of how much you suck, so these are obviously good reasons to use bad units.

And this matter's because...? Since I predict that she would even get those supports.

Sophia has Fa, Igrene, Ray, Roy and Niime.

Thanks for pointing the obvious, why on earth would you use either of them on the field of battle anyways? They're not that great anyways.

And as for Roy's support, he's better off supporting with Alan and/or Lance.

Douglas, however...has Elphin, Geese, Igrene, Percival, Cecilia and Lalum.

At least they're better than the one's you listed up top for Sophia's support. Percival would most likely have to be supported anyways if your gonna have to use him.

What else do these characters do for you? Well, Sophia finds you a Guiding Ring in the desert, which pretty much cancels out her needing a promo item at all.

Expect she won't be hitting anywhere near promotion.

You might want to harp on Sophia's durability, but she doesn't care. All she has to do is get to 13/0 or so, and then promote. This is about the time that Douglas joins. (he joins at the start of 16x, Sophia promotes at the end of 16)

13/1 Sophia - B Igrene, B Fa

Flux: 25.6 atk, 9.6 AS, 110.0 hit, 19.1 crit - - 39.6 avo, 24.2 hp, 7.4 def, 18.6 res, 20.4 critavo

Nosferatu: 27.6 atk, 8.6 AS, 110.0 hit, 19.1 crit - - 37.6 avo, 24.2 hp, 7.4 def, 18.6 res, 20.4 critavo, sucks ur HPs

20/8 Douglas

Iron Axe: 31.0 atk, 11.0 AS, 100.3 hit, 7.3 crit - - 33.0 avo, 48.0 hp, 22.0 def, 7.0 res, 11.0 critavo

Now, you will undoubtly go "zomg Douglas wins",,,but that's because these stats are one side of the coin. First, we will look at offense.

Douglas has a 4-5 win in raw Atk, 2-3 if Sophia goes for Nosferatu. However, enemies in this game have huuge Def-Res gaps. Like Wyverns have almost maxed Def, but they fail to get past 4-5 Res. So it'll be Sophia doing more blow per blow. And one blow is all these characters are getting. Yes, Douglas is faster, but it's not going to help him double anything. Maybe Knights, but Sophia can double those as well, and they are famous for their extravagant Def-Res gaps. And Sophia wins Crt, and has more Hit...if Douglas wishes to use other weapons, he'll have to lower his Hit even more. Which sucks, since enemies have Avo in FE6.

Defense. Douglas wins normal parameters BUT BUT BUT Sophia has Nosferatu, which is an awesome tome in FE6. First, it's buyable in the desert map, where you just got Silver Card. Second, it only weighs her down by one. Third, it has as much hit as Flux. And obviously it drains HP. An enemy needs like 26 Atk to do more damage than Sophia can heal back, and they need like 32 to one-shot her. Those enemies are there, but they won't make up the vast majority, which means Sophia can use her second advantage: flexibility. With her 1-2 range and 6 mov versus Douglas' 1-range and 5 mov, she can simply look for a better position to attack from on player phase, to make sure she doesn't get attacked. Douglas is lucky if he keeps up with the group. And against magics, Sophia is never ever gonna die, and she has a 11 Res lead there, plus WTA against Sages.

Also, Sophia heals other people with staves. She makes them more durable by being near. Douglas can only provide a durability boost if he prevents others from being attacked, but that's hard when you only have 5 mov while some others have 6 and most other good units (Miledy, Alan, Lance, Percival, Clarine, whoever has your Boots) even have 8. Also, staves provide free EXP and such. Which is just another stacked win for Sophia...she helps the EXP rank massively, while Douglas hurts it.

One more factor: this game's Ch16 Secret Shop has Angelic Robes in store. You're going to visit it anyway because you will be short on promo items for everyone, so may as well buy some Angelic Robes eh? They're only 4000G with Silver Card, and Funds is mad easy in this game. The availability of those things dimnishes Douglas' concrete physical durability some more (as if it's needed).

In endgame, it only gets better for Sophia. She is 7 levels lower, and has staves plus better offense, so naturally she'll grow more levels, and her growths are much better. If Douglas lost before, he will get crushed now.

helping supports, EXP rank, staves, better offense, Nosferatu, higher Res > better concrete physical durability

Sophia > Douglas

Except there are few major problems with this:

1: Sophia ain't going to hit anywhere near lv. 7.

2: She requires a Guiding Ring to get in touch with the rest of your teams. Whereas Douglas doesn't need a promotion item because he's a pre-promote.

3: She's motherfucking hard to train. Even in normal mode.

Therefore, she requires TONS of babying to try and get her even slightly on par with the rest of your team, she even turns out much worse than the majority statistically to begin with considering she starts out at Lv. 1.

And another thing I would like to point out:

HP: 15

Mag: 6

Skill: 2(lolwut?)

Spd: 4

Luck: 3

Def: 1(WTF?)

Res: 8

She can't kill and dodge, IN THE BEGINNING. And ALSO, 3 Con? She starts off with the tome Flux which weigh like 5 wt, subtracting that would result -2 speed loss. That doesn't help her there rather than making things even worst. Even upon promotion, she only gain's 1 more additional Con which still doesn't help. Any Dark tome, she uses would result to huge amounts of speed losses and won't benefit when playing HM.

Even when she hit promotion...why would you give her staff anyways? She's basically provoking even more enemies to come to her.

She's so slow even when you get her to Lv. 20/20 promoted. In other words, she can't double and gets doubled often. She could probably kill Armour Unit's but that's it.

Edited November 7, 2008 by 安室 奈美恵

[Mekkah]

And this matter's because...?

Because, regardless of how much Douglas or Sophia sucks, they will be giving the same bonuses to other units as anyone with their affinity would. This means they get to do something positive to the team, regardless of the fact that their stats are down the drain.

Or, in another way: would you prefer using a unit that sucks on the battlefield and does nothing else, or a unit that sucks on the battlefield, but makes other units you're using stronger?

Thanks for pointing the obvious, why on earth would you use either of them on the field of battle anyways? They're not that great anyways.

You accuse me of being Captain Obvious, but did not address the points I made about her supports anyway. So I suppose you agree with me.

I don't know for sure who you are referring with "either of them", but if it's Sophia and Douglas, then I think this "pointing out the obvious" part involves pots, kettles and the colour black.

If you are referring to Sophia's support partners, I've given you plenty of reasons why they would be fielded and supporting Sophia. All you've done now is say "no u", which is not exactly a convincing argument.

And as for Roy's support, he's better off supporting with Alan and/or Lance.

Heh, I have no problem surrendering this point. After all, I already said it:

Roy probably doesn't want her, so I won't argue that.

Though let it be said that Roy does have room for a C with anyone on his list, since you obviously would support Lance and Alan to an A (I won't elaborate further on this since it's obvious, but if you want me to, I will). So Roy is stuck with 2 Bs, and everyone else on his support list is terrible. Except Lalum, she's just likely to be full, and gets less out of a support than Sophia does.

At least they're better than the one's you listed up top for Sophia's support. Percival would most likely have to be supported anyways if your gonna have to use him.

How are they better? I explained why he's worse off support wise, I don't know why you're so keen on skipping over that. For Percival, no, nobody "has" to be supported. It's about how much Percival benefits from being supported, and he doesn't benefit from Douglas at all. Percival's selling point is that he can cross Elibe in two turns without dying. Having Douglas' can of suck hooked to him means he can't do that, or they won't have a bonus. Either way, it's not doing anything.

Quote: Expect she won't be hitting anywhere near promotion.

Why? If you're going to say it without backing it up, that won't convince me or anyone. So here's my counter:

She will be hitting 20/20 on Ch15 and outperform everyone, including Douglas.

I predict "but shes not blablan umbers look how bad"

See, that's backing up your argument properly. Do that more often when making outrageous statements.

Also, you were responding to a statement about Sophia getting you a Guiding Ring. A free 10k. That's not relevant to Sophia's leveling at all.

huge portion of text that largely went uncountered

Except there are few major problems with this:

Quote: 1: Sophia ain't going to hit anywhere near lv. 7.

Why? FYI, Sophia gains nearly a level for everything she kills.

Quote: 2: She requires a Guiding Ring to get in touch with the rest of your teams. Whereas Douglas doesn't need a promotion item because he's a pre-promote.

Yeah, and she's the only one who gets you the Ch14 Guiding Ring, so this is no problem...

Quote: 3: She's motherfucking hard to train. Even in normal mode.

Another statement in itself with no value as long as it's backed up. Also, Douglas isn't around until Ch16x, and at that point, Douglas is doing worse than her (as explained in my statistical comparison, which you didn't address, or even point out an alternative comparison).

Therefore, she requires TONS of babying to try and get her even slightly on par with the rest of your team, she even turns out much worse than the majority statistically to begin with considering she starts out at Lv. 1.

Level has no relevance on performance by itself. All it does is determine how fast you grow and whether you're capped or not. Her low level is actually a positive. Her low stats are a negative, but Douglas isn't doing any better, and everyone else does not matter (since this is Sophia vs Douglas, not Sophia vs Everyone Else).

Quote: She can't kill and dodge, IN THE BEGINNING.

Guess what? Douglas cannot either. Anything else you said, I don't care much about, because I already took it into account in my comparisons...and Sophia came out better (better offense, more Avo and more Hit ftw).

Quote:Even when she hit promotion...why would you give her staff anyways? She's basically provoking even more enemies to come to her.

How is this relevant? Staves are useful regardless of your stats. The only stat that affects staff usefulness is Mag, and even that is hardly relevant since whatever amount of HP healed is enough to get a unit out of death range. The fact remains that having staves > not having staves.

For provoking enemies, Sophia doesn't even have to be near enemies to heal. All she has to be is next to PCs who want her healing, so she can hide behind them. All that could reach her are ranged attacks, but she's not afraid of those at all - Javelins and Hand Axes get dodged or Nosferatu'd back to full health, and magic does shit to her.

Quote: pictures of enemies

Um...yeah...what's the point? Really? Those stats seem to be plucked from several points in the game too, judging by the levels, so they don't even reflect any point of time at all. They're just that - pictures of enemies in the game.

Quote:She's so slow even when you get her to Lv. 20/20 promoted. In other words, she can't double and gets doubled often. She could probably kill Armour Unit's but that's it.

And again and again and again, Douglas isn't doing any better. In fact, he has 11-12 AS at 20/20. Sophia hits that at 20/1 or so, or if you go with my promotion route, ~13/8.

I recommend you actually address my points made instead of making anti-statements at some, skipping over some others and leaving it at that. Regardless of how ridiculous my points may be, if they are not properly challenged, they stand. If I gave a huge ass explanation about why the sky is green, and you counter by saying "no it's blue", I'm being the more convincing one.

Edited November 7, 2008 by Mekkah

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

O man...that was the most terrible defeat I've ever had...

Mekkah I hate to admit it, but you overkilled me really badly. You left me completely speechless. And I'd bet you didn't even try your best in this debate...wow.

I have nothing to say, you win...

[Mekkah]

Quickest debate ever.

[Reikken]

Pfff. I've seen faster.

[Rei]

Pfff. I've seen faster.

lol, I think it goes like this...

Reikken vs *random person*

Random person opens.

"fuck it's Reikken... You win"

[Sniper]

Pfff. I've seen faster.

You've DONE faster.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

And now it's time to say goodbye to this topic.

*closing*