Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[Ochako Uraraka]

2 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

The role cop won't find me guilty considering i'm innocent. I'll follow up on my previous scumread on her and vote Sally.

##Vote Sally Stageplay

???

[Refakitty³]

4 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

???

???

[No Elimination]

^^They said role cop is a scum role so of course they're not gonna find you guilty.

Happy to lynch Baroness but really can't get a read on Sally to save my life.

[C. C.]

well also role cop doesn't find alignments

[Estelle]

To everyone that's unsure of Kahl's alignment, answer me this:

Why would he attempt to move the lynch to Honeybottoms near the end of D1?

[Rain Nijika]

Alright, I finished reading up on Grim. His overal posts feel good, in that the progression in his reads feels natural and he explains them well. two things struck me as odd though:
His interactions with Rumor don't read great though. He does mention why what Rumor is doing is scummy, but then proceeds to agree with Captain that it's too scummy to be scum. His interactions with BvBB don't feel like scum/scum though, and I suspect her a lot more.

Other then that, this comment kind of bothers me:

 

6 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Sally's cases are kind of whatever. idk I'll need to see what her posts today bring

This reads like not being sure what to make of me, which is kind of weird considering

6 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

idk I'm pretty demotivated right now, I feel like we just lynch Baroness+Sally and game is over easy easy 

he seems pretty sure I'm scum here. Would like him to expand on his current stance on me.

As I said, I suspect BvBB a lot more (I explained why at the end of last phase).

##Vote: Baroness von Bon Bon

Currently thinking the scumteam is her and Hilda, where Hilda is  because of PoE.

[Marisa Kirisame]

if Hilda were scum would Hilda make that mistake about the role cop

also do you really think no one else could be scum 

[Marisa Kirisame]

also do you think grim is scum or what

[Rain Nijika]

Also, I didn't manage to react to all the cases on me yesterday, so:

On 9-2-2018 at 8:06 AM, Grim Matchstick said:

how can mafia be real if our eyes aren't real

someone kill me so I can have the sweet release of death, and other such laments

it's time for the GRIM MATCHSTICK'S SALLY STAGEPLAY ANALYSIS which the thread slowed to a screeching halt in anticipation of this is a joke

I think what bothers me as I read Sally isn't that they feel indecisive or waffle-y, but that I don't feel like they're making a real effort to resolve their indecisiveness. They'll state stuff like "Werner's vote was fine but them emphasizing it as townie wasn't" and then just... leave it. It's difficult for me to put into words why this bugs me, but it makes me feel like they're not really trying to solve the game and are instead just making posts to blend in. However, they DO definitely change their mind on Werner when Werner is still the leading wagon. I'm a bit conflicted here, since on one hand if they tunneled and Werner flips town (which even ignoring my read on Werner would be the likely result if Sally's scum) I think it reflects kinda badly on them? On the other, they then proceed to kickstart the Djimmi wagon which was... also a mislynch? However, this one had some building consensus of "Djimmi might be lurkscum" in offhand remarks from a lot of players whereas the Werner wagon had pretty much died. It also bugs me that Sally doesn't really change their read on Werner for anything Werner actually did within the time frame of Sally's posts and they just thought about it a lot and came to a conclusion.

You say I don't really make an effort to resolve my indecisiveness, but changing my mind about Werner kind of does show that?

On 9-2-2018 at 8:06 AM, Grim Matchstick said:

Sally's towniest post is probably the response to Briney's attempt to turbo her.

But the Briney townread is also really ??? Sally seems to be basing this off role/actionspec which is super weird. I'm... not sure what to make of this honestly. I don't get what benefit town has for making this sort of post, I feel like maybe she's trying to appease/buddy with Briney?

The way Sally approaches the Cala/Rumor wagons is really bad, and it's kind of weird because I feel like her approach is suddenly a lot different from D1 (I don't think this is really alignment indicative it's just weird). Sally has gone from half-defending Rumor D1 to finding Rumor scummy D2 when very little for Rumor has changed, and has really nothing positive to say about Cala but ends up voting Rumor in what basically amounts to a pressure vote, as they don't want to put Cala at L-1.

I did explain why I changed my read on Rumor though.

On 9-2-2018 at 8:06 AM, Grim Matchstick said:

I also dislike how Sally approaches the Cala wagon. People are on her for not factoring it into her reads or trying to improve her reads on the people on the wagon (which I agree with), but I don't really have any idea who she finds scummiest of them or anything. She lists 3 names (Rumor, Cagney, and Kahl) and I'm not sure which she finds scummy of them? I have to assume Rumor is scummiest because Rumor is the only one Sally is actually pressuring, and then I guess Cagney because Kahl only got a parentheses remark? 

The reason Kahl only got a parentheses remark was that he was sheeping Cagneys case.

It was more a matter of me being paranoid about so much bad votes falling on a scum slot then me actually thinking the people making those votes were scum (granted, I thought Rumor was scum, but that was for different reasons), but I will agree I should have explained that better.

[Marisa Kirisame]

I guess thst point on kahl makes sense. going off of what I said earlier about brineybeard, would scum!brineybeard have tried to start a turbo on Sally 40 minutes to phase end

[Marisa Kirisame]

maybe I might switch my vote to baroness but idk what votals are 

[Rain Nijika]

6 minutes ago, Cagney Carnation said:

if Hilda were scum would Hilda make that mistake about the role cop

also do you really think no one else could be scum 

Scum having a rolecop isn't confirmed, so yes. As long as scum doesn't have one, her making that mistake is NAI.

2 minutes ago, Cagney Carnation said:

also do you think grim is scum or what

No, since his interactions with BvBB don't read like scum/scum, and I think BvBB is scum.

[Rain Nijika]

1 minute ago, Cagney Carnation said:

maybe I might switch my vote to baroness but idk what votals are 

I think my vote put her at L-2, so that might be a bad idea.

[C. C.]

1 hour ago, Werner Werman said:

To everyone that's unsure of Kahl's alignment, answer me this:

Why would he attempt to move the lynch to Honeybottoms near the end of D1?

this is fair I guess. he wasn't around in the last hour when I was trying to convince people to lynch Sally instead of Djimmi so earlier to me it kind of felt like he didn't really try that hard but he was trying up to about 2-3 hours left, which is closer to the deadline than I'd remembered.

[Rain Nijika]

15 hours ago, Werner Werman said:

I waffled yesterday because of this.  Sounded like a doc crumb.  But Honeybottoms turned out to be mafia.  Y'know who else said something similar?

Yeah.  And then:

So half my theory was correct, which was mafia rolecopped the doc on N1.  That's how they'd know it was a doc save, not something like a jailer/hooker/BPV.  Beppi did a great job of advertising that they had a power role, though.  Why is beyond me.

This whole part about mafia having a rolecop feels more like a consequence of me being scumread then a reason to scumread me tbh. I mean, sure I was dumb for believing the no kill came from a doc save (although I was totally right) but isn't the more likely explanation I said so because a doc is more common?

15 hours ago, Werner Werman said:

Honeybottoms flipping scum has the following implications:

- Grim is most likely clear for the last-minute unvote
- I'm slightly less convinced that Wally is an auto-clear, since we lynched a goon, but he's hardly first place in my lynch priority

I'm a bit suprised you find Grim's action more of an auto clear then Wally. Wally would need to have planned his whole D2 around faking a guilty on Rumor if he was scum (who was getting a free pass from several people), while Grimm just had to vote and unvote at the right time (note that it was Grimms vote that put Rumor at L-1 in the first place).

Just grabbing this opportunity to once again shout that even though I don't scumread Grimm, people really shouldn't give him a free pass for that unvote.

15 hours ago, Werner Werman said:

- Cagney is probably town, thanks to Beppi's last words

That leaves me, Brineybeard, Baroness, Sally, and Hilda.  I'm not going to case myself, and I'm not getting scum vibes from the pirate.  On reread, Wally wasn't the only not-really-there person on D1 - Sally and Baroness were also mostly no-shows.  Thus, I'm going to pair off every one of them.

- Sally/Hilda: Sally sorta-defends Hilda here based on Maria's case.  Hilda sees Sally as mildly scummy here.
- Sally/Baroness: Baroness mentions Sally as a minor scum read here.  Sally doesn't mention Baroness at all, from my short skim.
- Baroness/Hilda: I don't think they mention each other?  I'm getting tired.

On 10-2-2018 at 12:16 AM, Sally Stageplay said:

Reading up on the Baroness was quite intresting though. She mentions near the end of D1 that she finds Cala scummiest with Rumor being a big null, but Rumor will become a higher lynch priority if the mention of him still sitting on his RVS vote turns out true (it was true). She later comes back having reread Cala and states she finds them the most sus and Rumor remains a big null, with no mention of his RVS vote. (Just to clearify, she did mention other people in thse posts as well, I'm just ommiting it because it doesn't really impact my case.)
During D2, she doesn't mention Rumor at all, and after being asked about this after Wally's claim, she explains he has become a town read.
this feels like a very strange progression to me. She does mention not liking to talk about townreads much, but she also calls Wally out on not diving into Cala after townreading her, which is ????
This honestly makes me feel like she was planning to just focus Cala (and some other people) hoping the fuss about Rumor would die down, and townreading him was just an excuse to not talk about him.

15 hours ago, Cagney Carnation said:

@ Werner's case on Sally that was kind of my exact beef with them yesterday. that comment they made about scum mot having a strongman was fucking weird 

Strongman would have negated any ability that tries to block their kill, and it feels dumb to not use that in the first night when you have the option (since the first night is when you have the least amount of information about roles). Not really sure what's weird about that deduction?

@Hilda Berg What is your opinion on people other then me? In particular, I'd like to hear your read on BvBB, since she seems to be the biggest lynch intrest right now.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

TFW you have time to post and you're reading all of the posts but no one is posting anything so you just do nothing all day.

Hilda's post is confusing ( @Hilda Berg what are your reads in general?) and too minimalistic to read intent off of.  I agree w/ @Sally Stageplay or whoever said that the Rolecop thing is only telling if scum has a Rolecop, but at the same time it's like...Next to Goon and Roleblocker, Rolecop is the role that I'd expect the most.  I dunno, it's just weird post (it reads as Hilda mixing up what Role Cop and Cop do).  I'm not really bothered by any of Sally's recent posts though, so not sure who I'd peg as BnBB's scumbuddy.

I wish there was more resistance to the lynch, though.  It never feels good when everyone is like "yeah, this guy is definitely scum", even when you're pretty sure that most of those people are town.

[C. C.]

tbh if someone was defending Baroness in this situation and she flipped scum I'd be more likely to think they were town

[Olivier]

I just woke up like 30 minutes ago, go me

wrt my Rumor read I'll admit I was feeling they were town because their play felt too... obvious/brazen? I did try to get more details out of them D2 because I was uncertain though

Werner makes a good point about Kahl that I hadn't considered before. Briney's right they didn't push it but Kahl mentioned Day 2 they fell asleep before deadline so I'm inclined to give them a pass

[Estelle]

3 hours ago, Sally Stageplay said:

This whole part about mafia having a rolecop feels more like a consequence of me being scumread then a reason to scumread me tbh. I mean, sure I was dumb for believing the no kill came from a doc save (although I was totally right) but isn't the more likely explanation I said so because a doc is more common?

I'm a bit suprised you find Grim's action more of an auto clear then Wally. Wally would need to have planned his whole D2 around faking a guilty on Rumor if he was scum (who was getting a free pass from several people), while Grimm just had to vote and unvote at the right time (note that it was Grimms vote that put Rumor at L-1 in the first place).

Just grabbing this opportunity to once again shout that even though I don't scumread Grimm, people really shouldn't give him a free pass for that unvote.

You missed the part where I'd be scumreading you anyway, due to other past actions.

The Grimm unvote is a town move, because Honeybottoms tried to hammer and end the phase.  The more logical scum move would've been to leave that L-1 vote there, and let Honeybottoms hammer.  Given the amount of activity, he would've gotten away with it.

In Wally's case, Rumor was already on the hot seat, and she flipped goon.  The other lynch target was you.  I can see scum faking a cop result to get the lynch off of a scum power role and onto a foregone, vanilla conclusion.  That's why I'm less certain about Wally.

3 hours ago, Dr. Kahl said:

I wish there was more resistance to the lynch, though.  It never feels good when everyone is like "yeah, this guy is definitely scum", even when you're pretty sure that most of those people are town.

I've cleared literally half the living players in my mind due to a single scum flip.  Baroness' problem IMO is that she shows up once, then disappears for who-knows-how-long.  It's tempting to call for a hammer, but I want to see what else she has to say first.

1 hour ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

tbh if someone was defending Baroness in this situation and she flipped scum I'd be more likely to think they were town

PoE is a thing.  I'm not going to object to a Baroness lynch, because of associative reads.  My actual read on her is unmemorable.

[C. C.]

well my point was that I would be surprised if Baroness's buddy directly defended her here when odds are she's going to get lynched. I'd expect them to either bus her or try to start another wagon while not directly defending her. if somebody actually did defend her that would show more willingness to go against the grain, which would be townie.

also, kahl's point is that the grim unvote is a very easy thing to set up with your buddy and fake to get towncred, after Rumor was already sunk. In comparison Wally would have to have bussed Rumor all phase and then guiltied her... why?

[Cú Chulainn]

Sorry, got prodded, forgot night phase ended, let me get caught up.

[C. C.]

you should probably claim

[Cú Chulainn]

I'm currently in the middle of posting, so let me finish that.

But I'm a vanilla.

[Cú Chulainn]

On 2/10/2018 at 9:35 PM, Cala Maria said:

Yeah so this post feels scum motivated. I already explained some of the reasons yesterday but to recap:

-Grim scumread makes no sense. Why is Grim scum for not factoring in Beppi/Hilda interactions? Why is Grim using player guesses scummy? What is bad about saying that he wouldn't lynch Kahl?

-The one on me is also bad. What is or was scummy about my EoD thoughts? Why does my Hilda vote come from scum when I have a wagon on me and no one was willing to lynch Hilda before then? Since we know that you thought that Rumor was town, why did you push the scum/scum argument against Wally in this post? Since you apparently thought that it was a town vs scum, why does Wally townreading me and not reading me make him scum? Considering that you had a similar view on the wagons. A lot about this scumread is dismissive because it takes out of context my actions and also ignores the whole defense of me. Like I can't see how not voting in one of my posts is scummy considering I was still reading the thread and giving my thoughts, also wagon analysis is legit, please explain the scum intent there.

-Wally scumread mostly sounds like you didn't like his reads which doesn't mean he's scum. Also think that putting Wally over Grim looks suspicious AF but its hard to argue this when both reads were spun out of disagreeing with their play.

-You kind of brushed off Sally which is weird because I can't see how some guy dissecting posts and giving good arguments for why someone is scum(so Wally) is worse than someone waffling on two wagons when there's no reason to and not committing to a proper analysis(Sally).

 

In general this post looks like a classic chainsaw defense of Rumor. It attacks all the people possibly anti-Rumor without ever mentioning Rumor and the basis for the reads itself is shaky.

 

##Vote:Baroness Von Bon Bon

Grim scumread makes no sense apparently, I don't get that at all, I've posted thoughts and reasons as to why they are scummy a few times, part of the stuff maybe gut based but just because it's gut based you can't just brush it off like that.  Like seriously, there are people who play mafia HEAVILY based off of gut, you don't see people just ignoring their cases solely because they used gut do you?  Grim using player guesses is scummy because it's POINTLESS.  It doesn't do anything in the game thread, multiple posts of his were ONLY player guesses or information similiar in an ANONY game.  That literally means a fair amount of his posts hold ZERO scum hunting and ZERO effort towards helping town do anything.  Unless the name of the fucking game is "Name all the fucking players in this anony game."  The Kahl read he posted also came out of nowhere in my opinion unless I missed it, which is why in my opinion it was weird.  I also never stated it was bad(I think) Just weird.  How many fucking times am I going to get misrepped this game, if I get lynched because of being misrepped repeatedly I'm going to be extremely frustrated.

ALSO DOES NO ONE ELSE FIND IT WEIRD TO ME THAT HE SAID HE WAS SCUM READING BEPPI BUT THIS DAY PHASE HE FUCKING POSTED THAT HE SAW THE DOC CRUMB?

The case on you is bad? That's a load of bull, multiple people agree that you are/were scummy, apparently that just dropped off the face of the earth because of rumor's lynch and suddenly I'm on the chopping block because I was townreading him.  Man if we lynch people for townreading scum flips these games we be 90% scum wins I'd think.  Hilda vote was scummy and was already commented on how it was scummy, it was terribly weak imo.  Like right here in this whole fucking paragraph is a bunch of questions that have already been answered or explained and right now I'm getting fed up with it so I'm halfway debating on just not responding since it seems like people won't read this anyway.  I don't even quite understand the bolded part.  I also read the context of your actions and I don't think it was dismissive at all.  You not voting in that post was scummy as well because, even though you say you were reading the thread and giving thoughts, you were constantly posting and active at that time while just choose to not vote until a while later.

Wally scum read isn't a matter of not liking his plays, it's a matter of, he was being fucking scummy.  Not liking someone's plays doesn't make them scum, I don't like a couple of plays in this game but I'm not going around saying everyone is scum.  Neither fucking scumread between grim or Wally were disliking their plays so stop fucking saying that you prick.  That's so god damn annoying, just because you don't have the ability to see logic that is bad doesn't mean you can just brush it off as "I didn't agree with them."  Wally up until his cop claim didn't actively do much until most of the way through day 2.  He tunneled on rumor(for obvious reason now) but he wasn't as actively breaking down posts as you seem to make it out to be.  I still don't think Rumor was SUPER scummy, I've seen much scummier plays than what he did from people who are town.  Literally reading this post frustrates me to no end.

23 hours ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

idk I don't find Baroness's reasons for scumreading Wally super bad? it is generally kind of bad play, if not necessarily scummy play, to be so sure about a scumread that you already start thinking about associative reads before they flip, and that's what Wally was doing cuz of the cop guilty. it could be chainsaw defending, but what I actually find more suspicious is that she chose to vote you over Wally even though it seemed like she had more reasons to suspect Wally than you. It's possible it was because she wanted to ensure your lynch over her buddy's.

what's also suspicious is that she basically never talked about Rumor except tangentially when attacking Wally and then after the cop guilty was like "rip that was one of my townreads". also from the other side, Rumor in ED1 says she likes BvBB's posting because "no particular reason why tbh just GUT" and then puts her under the "no fucking clue" alignment category on D2

my reason for townreading her before seems silly now that I realize who she probably is :weary: ##Vote: Baroness von Bon Bon

would be dope if Wally came in with a Hilda guilty so we could get a surrender here.

You really couldn't tell who I was? /s  Here's also a bunch of reasons why my Wally read wasn't bad.  But the whole thing about me "Choosing to vote Cala over Wally is bad" is your opinion.  I had reasons to vote both of them but IN MY OPINION Cala was more scummy and also had more content, Wally hadn't done anything except for day 2 stuff so I was wanting to hear more out of him before he goes higher on a chopping block in my eyes.

Yeah I didn't talk about Rumor that much and I think I even commented on to why, his day posts read as very null to me and were big walls and I generally don't read fucking wall after wall after wall.  I lose a lot of motivation to do anything trying to read and break those down.  And then when it came to day 2 they were more or less a town read for me from PoE.  I had 4 people that were scum reads for me and I was confident in them, from that perspective, Rumor was town.  Yeah apparently townreading flipped scum is bad.

21 hours ago, Werner Werman said:

- Sally/Hilda: Sally sorta-defends Hilda here based on Maria's case.  Hilda sees Sally as mildly scummy here.
- Sally/Baroness: Baroness mentions Sally as a minor scum read here.  Sally doesn't mention Baroness at all, from my short skim.
- Baroness/Hilda: I don't think they mention each other?  I'm getting tired.

So my guess is that if we lynch between these three, we'll hit the scum team.  First place goes to the person that quoted the weird stuff on D2:

##Vote: Sally Stageplay

Funny how I did mention Hilda a few times and stated that I thought they were a town read, still do in fact.

19 hours ago, Werner Werman said:

Between Sally/Baroness, I feel that the latter would've figured out Beppi's crumbs more easily.

What does this even mean?  This wouldn't even matter in the context of what you are trying to point out.  A scum team would be a scum team so they have multiple people to see Beppi's crumbs, of which multiple people in this game fit the bill to easily do.  A couple of my scum reads are easily in that list of people able to see it.

13 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Bonbon's content still sucks, her reaction to cases yesterday was to accuse me of not reading her post and not really explain herself at all? You can't deny that a significant amount of your cases were predicated on "This person is playing in a way I disagree with, they must be scum" without connecting it from playing poorly to being scummy and the reaction feels like scum not knowing what else to do but act indignant and hope people buy the act

Sally's cases are kind of whatever. idk I'll need to see what her posts today bring

Feeling really confident that my Cala townread was accurate after Rumor flipped scum

Wally is obvtown imo, the only scenario where I see him being scum would be no godfather and town having an unclaimed PR and he bussed Rumor for the cred. I don't think this is a likely scenario since I also read his D2 as tonally town but I'm throwing it out there 'cause I don't want to die and see people throw lategame

Cagney is obvtown unless Beppi was the most obvious Doc in the world yet was also incredibly misleading about his save (less than 1% chance of this imo)

wouldn't lynch Werner, I don't really agree with a lot of their cases but this is standard for that player and they're towntelling really hard

Briney is obviously a good player, so even ignoring my meta read, I'll go into why I think they're town a bit despite bad Rumor interactions: Basically, I think Briney is smart enough to know that hard defending Rumor is going to look bad if Rumor flips scum, and would make some sort of effort to have a better interaction? It'd be pretty cocky to think he could just hard defend his scumbuddy who is barely doing shit and self-admittedly is a bad scum player (which no doubt Briney would've known from the start of the game), and while the person I'm thinking of has definitely made cocky scumplays in the past, this game doesn't really fit their MO. And if I'm wrong about their identity... well, then making cocky scumplays doesn't really fit anyone else's MO period.

I suck at reading new/inexperienced players so Hilda is just kind of someone who posts and I go "cool, I hope someone else can make heads or tails of your slot"

Kahl is in this weird spot where I don't really remember their posts other than nothing stood out to me as scummy and they generally felt pure/honest, so I've got a townread there and I don't feel like making a serious reread rn

idk I'm pretty demotivated right now, I feel like we just lynch Baroness+Sally and game is over easy easy 

Read the first paragraph and was really debating on making a big expletive in all caps bolded and nicely blown up just for you.  Both cala and Grim constantly doing this towards my posts and I find it interesting since they have been my two strongest fucking scum reads.  Let's see what else is in this fucking post.  No that's not what my cases were based on.

Brushes off sally case for zero reason?

Confident in a cala read when rumor flipped scum? Why? This makes no sense.

Posting about wally and cagney being obvtown is also pointless in this thread at the moment and is just putting needless words in your post to artficially inflate it.

Comments on who he wouldn't lynch and complains about being demotivated.  Also says that Kahl is now in a "Weird spot" after stating they were a town read and would not lynch previously.

This entire fucking post is just an attack on me and saying why he wouldn't lynch people.  There is zero actual scum hunting here and it's quickly followed up by an easy as hell vote on me that everyone seems to be doing.

This has literally been most of Grim's fucking posts but apparently people see something I don't?

Want to lynch Cala/Grim because I feel they are the scum remaining but if it came down to "anyone but me" would vote sally.

Voting in a second, I have to find two specific quotes.

[Cú Chulainn]

14 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

I don't think there's evidence of a scum role cop. I initially backed off Beppi in part because he heavily implied he was a power role. Later in the day he also made several comments heavily implying he was Doc specifically. Werner's case on Sally seems to be implying that Rumor and Sally both crumbed doc with a save on Briney, which means they're both mafia because... uh. 

I'm dumb it was right here, I don't wanna go dredge through day 2 to find the other post.  Grim was scum reading Beppi pretty sure all of day 2 yet he states he saw comments WRT a doc crumb.  This needs to be answered for.

##Vote: Grim matchstick

Grim > Cala > Sally