Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

@Werner Werman What do you think about Hilda now that Wally is probably not scum (this is in response to "The only explanation I can see for scum is that someone pulled her to the side and told her WTF to do.  The only player who fits the "inactive on D1, active on D2" criteria is the guy you're voting, but that's quite the stretch.")?  My thoughts are that I don't think at least 2/3 scum players would be like "time to do nothing on D1 and then get better on D2", and in retrospect Hilda's improvement seems a lot more natural to me, but want a second opinion here since you're like the only other person who's read into Hilda.  Also uh maybe I missed something but how did you know that Honeybottoms was an outsider by this post?

Also I guess my issue with Captain being scum is that I don't see Scum!Captain being like "it's time to turbo my scumbuddy at the every end of D1" or being like "time to stop a lynch on Rumor by getting my other scumbuddy lynched instead" and if only one of them is scum, who the fuck is left?  Me/Wally/Beppi/Werner/Cagney/Cala/Grima/Hilda are all people I wouldn't want to lynch, which leaves like Baroness.  Baroness' interactions w/Captain don't read as scum/scum to me though, so that's where I am currently am at the moment.  Granted, I could be wrong about one of my townreads, but I can't see anything changing on that front.

@Wally Warbles Also dropped the Rumor suspicion because I thought she was town.  There's no value in me defending myself from associative reads, but people should be able to sus out that me being scum w/Rumor wouldn't make sense.

 

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

17 hours ago, Wally Warbles said:

Also will sue you, BBvB, Rumor and Grim for taking a long time I'm dying of boredom over here.

Revenge for you not posting for most of D1.

@Baroness Von Bon Bon For calling me out on not reading your posts, you didn't seem to read mine lol.  My very next post commented that I got your reasoning for your Cala vote.  What are your thoughts on the game now that Wally and Cala are most likely not scum?  I dunno, your post had a decent amount of reads that individually I understood, but felt off together?  Like, why was Cala scummier than Wally considering you had more issues with Wally?  Why were Grim or Sally on your list at all, at worse they seemed like null reads to me.  I mean, maybe you have null reads on your list, but I don't get why they're higher up than other null reads.

@Grim Matchstick Yeah, I can get that WRT lack of votes.  What are your thoughts on Captain/Baroness?  Which one do you think makes more sense as scum (if any, could be townreading them both as well)?  Do you think their D1 interactions make sense as scumbuddies?  Asking because I can get why Captain individually makes sense as scum w/Rumor but he doesn't make sense as scum w/other people that I think are scummy, and I dunno if it's because one of my townreads are wrong or Captain is just town.

[Marisa Kirisame]

man I really really should have known, I guess what threw me off is how rumor came in & agreed with like every case on them, didn't offer any resistance at all. I should have considered that weird but I didn't know if scum!rumor would have given up like. that easily

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

@Grim Matchstick You mentioned Sally's response to being turboed was townie, but it kind of bothers me that Sally townread Captain still despite that.  I know turboing isn't inherently scummy but it's like...if you know you're town and someone wants to lynch you without discussion, could you really brush it off so easily?  Also this point of yours ("The way Sally approaches the Cala/Rumor wagons is really bad, and it's kind of weird because I feel like her approach is suddenly a lot different from D1 (I don't think this is really alignment indicative it's just weird). Sally has gone from half-defending Rumor D1 to finding Rumor scummy D2 when very little for Rumor has changed, and has really nothing positive to say about Cala but ends up voting Rumor in what basically amounts to a pressure vote, as they don't want to put Cala at L-1.") makes Sally look a lot worse IMO...that last part was more of my own read than a response to you, whatever formatting is effort.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Calling it right now, it's Sally/Baroness.  Could be Captain/Hilda I guess but I'm not as bothered by Hilda overall.

3 minutes ago, Cagney Carnation said:

man I really really should have known, I guess what threw me off is how rumor came in & agreed with like every case on them, didn't offer any resistance at all. I should have considered that weird but I didn't know if scum!rumor would have given up like. that easily

i thought that was null (mostly because i've seen both town/scum do that) and was more convinced by the cala case whoops

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

30 minutes ago, Hilda Berg said:

Wait does this mean you didn't really see Rumor as scum?

I just noticed this but I mean...yeah, Rumor wasn't on my last lynch priority for a reason lol.

[Olivier]

My BvBB read hasn't really changed since the start of the day, in part because they only have one real post this phase and I feel it was pretty bad (I'm like 100% certain I've made a previous post on this). A recap is I feel their late day 1 was really scummy because of how they approached the djimmi wagon and people townreading her are giving too much credit to how hard it is to fake that as mafia

I still think Briney is town (I haven't actually reread him after Wally claimed though), nothing about his Rumor defense really stood out to me as wrong/bad from my memory and I feel he's overall been pretty town? Like, he's been very proactive, giving out reads, and engaging with people and it's all done in a way that's hard to fake as scum.

Also I agree that the part of Sally's actions you quoted is bad, I'm not 100% sure what your point is? If you think I mean everything in that paragraph is NAI, that's not what I meant (and looking back this was poorly worded on my part?). The NAI bit was I felt like the way Sally was analyzing people suddenly changed and that was weird. Her approach to the Cala/Rumor wagons was scummy

[Ochako Uraraka]

I think the Baroness is likely scum given the way she tries to dismiss Wally's case on Rumor in her last post and spends time talking about Grim and me without talking about Rumor at all. There's a lot to the post that IMO is scum motivated but I'd be writing a wall about that. I think it looks like a classic scum move of a chainsaw defense of her buddy. Doesn't even directly interact with Rumor.

 

The Captain makes sense as scum with Hilda or the Baroness but not with Sally for the reason that you mentioned, @Dr. Kahl. I still think that Sally and BvBB would be better lynches tomorrow than the captain because their play is a lot more scummy than the captain's and tbh a)no D1 problems with the captain except not pushing rumor hard

b)The Captain could've just tunneled on me as I was his buddy's counterwagon instead of hopping off and moving to Sally IMO.

 

Hilda Idrk she doesn't have any interactions with Rumor but my issues with her play in the game still hold.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

2 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

My BvBB read hasn't really changed since the start of the day, in part because they only have one real post this phase and I feel it was pretty bad (I'm like 100% certain I've made a previous post on this). A recap is I feel their late day 1 was really scummy because of how they approached the djimmi wagon and people townreading her are giving too much credit to how hard it is to fake that as mafia

I still think Briney is town (I haven't actually reread him after Wally claimed though), nothing about his Rumor defense really stood out to me as wrong/bad from my memory and I feel he's overall been pretty town? Like, he's been very proactive, giving out reads, and engaging with people and it's all done in a way that's hard to fake as scum.

Also I agree that the part of Sally's actions you quoted is bad, I'm not 100% sure what your point is? If you think I mean everything in that paragraph is NAI, that's not what I meant (and looking back this was poorly worded on my part?). The NAI bit was I felt like the way Sally was analyzing people suddenly changed and that was weird. Her approach to the Cala/Rumor wagons was scummy

Makes sense.

Agreed WRT Briney.  Biased but what stood out to me was I don't think he'd be like "yeah, I think Kahl's posts are good but I suck at reading him" as scum.  Also him defending Wally before Wally outed as cop didn't read as scum to me.  I didn't bother rereading either, though.

It wasn't really a point, it was more just me stating my own thoughts on rereading really.

2 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

I think the Baroness is likely scum given the way she tries to dismiss Wally's case on Rumor in her last post and spends time talking about Grim and me without talking about Rumor at all. There's a lot to the post that IMO is scum motivated but I'd be writing a wall about that. I think it looks like a classic scum move of a chainsaw defense of her buddy. Doesn't even directly interact with Rumor.

The Captain makes sense as scum with Hilda or the Baroness but not with Sally for the reason that you mentioned, @Dr. Kahl. I still think that Sally and BvBB would be better lynches tomorrow than the captain because their play is a lot more scummy than the captain's and tbh a)no D1 problems with the captain except not pushing rumor hard

b)The Captain could've just tunneled on me as I was his buddy's counterwagon instead of hopping off and moving to Sally IMO.

Hilda Idrk she doesn't have any interactions with Rumor but my issues with her play in the game still hold.

Well, have fun writing that post tomorrow!  I'll probably be voting Sally but that's a good point.

Why does Captain make sense as scum with Baroness?  Do you think that interaction was possibly faked?

Captain switching to Sally confused me because there were like two counterwagons to a scum wagon which still kind of baffles me.  If Sally is scum, it'll make a lot more sense to me (in that the second wagon was town).

Why do you want to lynch Baroness/Sally tomorrow if you're still bothered by Hilda?

[Cú Chulainn]

7 minutes ago, Grim Matchstick said:

My BvBB read hasn't really changed since the start of the day, in part because they only have one real post this phase and I feel it was pretty bad (I'm like 100% certain I've made a previous post on this). A recap is I feel their late day 1 was really scummy because of how they approached the djimmi wagon and people townreading her are giving too much credit to how hard it is to fake that as mafia

Hurr durr only one post and no other stuff regarding the day phase.  I mean things didn't really happen after I made that post.  I also did say I was very tired.

Glad for a guilty on Rumor I guess but that was one my town reads. Rip me.

@Cala MariaI didn't quite dismiss Wally's case on rumor but I didn't agree with his train of thoughts so we ha da disagreement of that read.  I actually commeneted on how he was tunneling Rumor a lot, I think I may have said it was overall weak imo, but I never dismissed it.  Also I didn't talk about Rumor because I was talking about what stood out to me the most and who I thought was scum, not primarily my town reads.

[Olivier]

I'm not saying it was scummy for you to not be around, it just didn't do you any favors

[Cú Chulainn]

15 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

Do you have any actual problems with my play other than me making meta reads? Or... half your reads, really. Your Sally read for example seems to be "I disagree with how they're playing so I'm okay with lynching them" vs. "I think what they're doing is scummy" and I feel like your Wally read is much the same.  You did a lot of this D1 too iirc

Also you claim I brought up the Cala read change after other people pointed it out and gutread this as scum but... I don't think anyone talked about it this phase until I brought it up as a towntell? This feels like something you just made up which is ???

man fuck it 

##Vote: bvbb

People really shouldn't be giving this slot a free pass for something easy to fake as scum (their argument with Briney D1) and I don't feel good about voting Sally without doing a proper analysis (which I haven't had the motivation for lul)

Also you didn't even read my post I think because I posted multiple problems with you in my post outside of you posting meta reads.  I still think how hard your leaning on meta reads is really bad though.  Defintely didn't make up anything.  I may have misread and thought someone else had stated the Cala read change.  I feel like that's a real stretch to say I made something up.

[Cú Chulainn]

I might be sick, so apologies if I randomly vanish.

[Ochako Uraraka]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Kahl said:

Well, have fun writing that post tomorrow!  I'll probably be voting Sally but that's a good point.

Why does Captain make sense as scum with Baroness?  Do you think that interaction was possibly faked?

Captain switching to Sally confused me because there were like two counterwagons to a scum wagon which still kind of baffles me.  If Sally is scum, it'll make a lot more sense to me (in that the second wagon was town).

Why do you want to lynch Baroness/Sally tomorrow if you're still bothered by Hilda?

Well I feel that interaction can be faked, tbh. Mostly because that frustration wasn't really taking any direction but also the discussion about turbos is a good way to derail the discussion wrt scumhunting so there's scum intent there. Also think that the change in read in his opening posts of D2 wasn't a very good explanation for Town!Baroness because there's obvious scum intent to doing what she did at EoD.

Yeah Captain switching makes less sense as scum and more as town.

With Baroness its more that a lot of her reads in the last posts don't make sense and her arguments for some players being scum are really just NAI. Like there's an instance where she talks about Grim not having a read on Hilda but having one on Beppi even though Hilda and Beppi have interactions, and thinks that's scummy. But that's really just...NAI? Like what's the scum intent here? Also Hilda barely had any interactions with anyone in the first place and she completely missed Grim's wallpost. She does the same with me except I've actually talked about their interactions so that point is false. She also doesn't like Wally stating that he doesn't want to re-read me but completely misses the point; Grim had already defended me earlier and Wally had agreed with that defense, so that's a clear reason for saying what he said, I feel like that's blatantly ignoring what Wally is doing. There were a lot of posts where Wally explained well and actually dissected arguments for Town!Rumor but she's painting him as someone just making a lazy case which is false. A pattern in that one post is that she's leaving out crucial context for the actions of the players she's talking about which is scummy IMO.

 

Sally on the other hand this one is straightforward. The way she treats me/Rumor is scummy, I already talked about it earlier. I'm struggling to see that mindset coming from town. I was waiting for some explanation didn't get any; was gonna vote her if Wally hadn't claimed the guilty.

Hilda doesn't have these things going against her so that's where I stand atm.

 

[Olivier]

Also, if Briney is scum with Rumor + one of the two other main suspects (Sally/Baroness), that would mean he either pretty hard defended both his buddies or hard defended one and hard bussed the other which is... sort of weird? Especially since in the case of Briney/Rumor/Sally he decided to bus the buddy under less suspicion which would be very questionable play

[Refakitty³]

How does that confirm town anyone who voted Rumor then? I don't see how.

 

## Unvote

[Cú Chulainn]

20 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

With Baroness its more that a lot of her reads in the last posts don't make sense and her arguments for some players being scum are really just NAI. Like there's an instance where she talks about Grim not having a read on Hilda but having one on Beppi even though Hilda and Beppi have interactions, and thinks that's scummy. But that's really just...NAI? Like what's the scum intent here? Also Hilda barely had any interactions with anyone in the first place and she completely missed Grim's wallpost. She does the same with me except I've actually talked about their interactions so that point is false. She also doesn't like Wally stating that he doesn't want to re-read me but completely misses the point; Grim had already defended me earlier and Wally had agreed with that defense, so that's a clear reason for saying what he said, I feel like that's blatantly ignoring what Wally is doing. There were a lot of posts where Wally explained well and actually dissected arguments for Town!Rumor but she's painting him as someone just making a lazy case which is false. A pattern in that one post is that she's leaving out crucial context for the actions of the players she's talking about which is scummy IMO.

I'd like you to expand on the bolded part more please.

Also I never said Wally's rumor case was bad nor did I say he wasn't doing anything, I commented on how hard he was tunneling, which now makes sense.  I saw him tunneling to the point that I, me personally, felt that he was ignoring other people far too much.

I just threw up but feel minorly better, hopefully that was all it was.

[C. C.]

rip my reads; will need to reread to figure out associative reads with Rumor other than that Cala is almost certainly town

@Cala- why do you think my reasoning for finding Baroness town is wrong? What's easily faked about it? I agree that just talking about turbos isn't townie but do you think that she would try turning it back on me? what's the scum intent there?

[Kamina]

I, um.

Sigh.

Going to post in a bit, I just wanted to acknowledge that I saw stuff that happened on previous page.

[Kamina]

Dammit, I'm so mad at myself for buying into the "new to SF" card. I shouldn't have second guessed myself. I feel dumb.

That said, I don't want to risk hammer so I'll leave my vote where it is for now (I'm almost certain I will be around at phase end; hold me to it).

Werner: Do you still my thoughts on Wally, or should we just throw out anything before he claimed >_> I was going to reread him when I got on this afternoon, only for the first post I see to be him claiming, so I'm not sure if there's much use in a reread anymore.

So, remember when I said I felt there was one scum between Maria and Rumor? Well, now that Rumor's basically outright claimed to be scum, I feel better about Maria. Looking back at their scuffle, it looks much less like a bus and more Rumor overreacting to Maria's post about them, which is probably why I had a bad feeling about it -- the premise of the argument seemed a bit odd.

Matchstick is probably town. Unvoting the guy at L-1 seems like a townie move, especially since Rumor was cop-confirmed as scum. There's no benefit for scum to drag out the day phase any longer.

Kahl it's good let's feel stupid together lol

As for the person my vote is currently on ... well, my thoughts doesn't change much. I think at the time Sally voted Maria, the latter was at L-2 already (and I would've yelled even harder if someone put Maria at L-1 that early into the phase), so from their initial post they had to vote for Rumor by virtue of not actually talking about anyone else besides those two. I think Rumor was also a bit of a safe vote at that point in the game, but looked less likely to be lynched then Maria. So it comes off as Sally expecting Maria to be the D1 lynch, but still putting their vote on Rumor would make them look better if Rumor flipped scum, while still trying to justify switching over to Maria at the end of the day if the votes between Rumor and Maria came too close. I could still see Sally as a potential scum buddy for Rumor.

[Violet Evergarden]

4 hours ago, Dr. Kahl said:

@Wally Warbles  I never got the impression that Rumor backpedaled on her cases D2 because she didn't really have anything to backpedal on from D1 (and yes, I already mentioned her D1 play bothered me).  What reads of Rumors were inconsistent (you don't have to answer because of the current gamestate, but I'm genuinely curious because I want to know where I messed up)?  Like, the Cala read was tunnel visiony (pretty sure I called this out already), but the progression on it made more sense from someone who knows they're town over someone who's scum.  You mention that Captain is the most likely scumbuddy but that doesn't explain the No Kill then.  Do you think someone else got docced (or a BPV, I guess)?  Also please don't cop Hilda, I'd rather confirmed town be someone who can influence the game and I don't think they're scum.

I didn't mean she backpedaled I meant she erased everything. I don't think she was necessarily inconsistent. Someone else stated (Beppi I think) stated that she swapped on some of her scum reads into townreads I think.

Some people can just randomly think someone else is definitely town and then end up doccing them. Doc Wifom can be very weird. It could also have been a BPV, a roleblock or a weird factional night variant (e.g. poison). It's not unthinkable that something else happened other than Captain getting docc'd. 

@Captain Brineybeard Can you explain what made you think Rumor changed her mind about her reads?

[C. C.]

@wally- I thought she changed her mind about her reads because she literally changed her reads? like her biggest push on D1 was on matchstick and she opened D2 by saying she thought matchstick was town off his ED2 posts. I didn't like her matchstick suspicion from the beginning (one of the reasons I voted her on D1). so the fact that she moved off that read didn't bother me in and of itself. but i disliked that she didn't say why she changed her mind and asked for more reasons from her, which she didn't reply to.

dunno man I still feel like because you knew she was scum you just threw the kitchen sink at her with regards to your case and made every single thing she did out to be scummy when that wasn't the case. shrug

[C. C.]

meh not sure what to make of the sally interactions. I still feel like she was cheerleading the cala wagon while saying the votes on them weren't good, which makes sense with cala being town. but not sure why she would go with a rumor vote in that situation. at the time of her vote, the wagons were 5-3 in favour of cala, and she brought them to 5-4. even if she didn't want to be the L-1 vote on Cala, picking her buddy and making it more likely they'll get lynched is at the least a suboptimal choice.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

Read everything so far, just don't really have anything to say.  Is anyone waiting on a particular person to post?  Ideally, Sally would post, but I don't think it's that important in the grand scheme of things and anything she could say today she can say tomorrow.  I don't really care about anything else and it doesn't feel like anything is getting done anymore.

[Violet Evergarden]

"Captain: Yeah but was there anything in particular that made you say that she "changed her mind" because you claimed she said as such when I can't find any such thing?