Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[Estelle]

1 hour ago, Dr. Kahl said:

##Unvote

##Vote: Wally Warbles

Lynch priority is kind of wack because I don't know who bothers me more between Wally/Sally (Sally is more in the background which fits the scum MO more but Wally is doing more things that are actively bothering me), I'm flipflopping on Hilda (what I mentioned earlier holds true but I dunno...something just seems off about her followups to her cases).  Maybe third scum is Baroness/Cagney, I don't even know.

Hilda's issue as of late is how she's reacting now that she's a town read. I have my theories, but they're centered around the person, not the role, so I'm keeping that to myself.  Her content is fine.

The only explanation I can see for scum is that someone pulled her to the side and told her WTF to do.  The only player who fits the "inactive on D1, active on D2" criteria is the guy you're voting, but that's quite the stretch.

47 minutes ago, Wally Warbles said:

  Reveal hidden contents

People react in all sorts of ways when there's perceived pressure on them.  I stated my suspicion on you, and your response was what I'd expect if I'd made a bad case against you, complete with a vote and a call for a turbolynch.  Emotion is a null tell.  Emotional overreaction is a scumtell, which is why I have any sort of scumread on you right now.  Honeybottom's issue was not-town reads, so a null on you.  Even if it looks head-slappingly obvious, it was more than she put out D1.  I had a problem with Grim presupposing Beppi was mafia, and that extends to you and Honeybottoms.  If she randomly drops dead during this phase and flips town, then what?

The bolded: "My response was complete with a vote and call for turbo lynch." This is just a lie. I don't really understand what you gain through this though. Is it all some reaction test? You must have known that I'd point this out?

I think you missed the "AS IF" qualifier.  Now you're reacting as if you've been outed by a cop.

45 minutes ago, Beppi The Clown said:

Rumor just ... doesn't look any better than before. They give off this air of not efforting as much as they could, while trying to put in the least amount of effort while still looking like they're trying? If any of that made sense. It bothers me that I really can't tell who they think is scummy (besides Maria). In their reads post, it doesn't sit very well with me that they only have one person they call outright scummy, while the next scummiest person is still only "null scum", one who essentially had a barely existent D1. I'm fine with my vote on here. Also I keep thinking you're Manix, but I swear I'm not letting this affect my read on you

Honeybottoms is somewhat of an outsider.

43 minutes ago, Dr. Kahl said:

Also reread Cala's responses to solidify my position there.  I definitely don't want to lynch there, I really can't see their followup and defense coming from scum.  People who are scumreading the slot should mention how their Page 15 posts make sense as scum because I'm not seeing it.  I'd still like some responses to my issues with the slot, but that's basically a formality at this point.

I know I do a lot of *words*, but I responded to Maria back on page 15.

43 minutes ago, Sally Stageplay said:

1) Captain felt like the only universal town read D1. While yes, scum could have decided to shoot someone else (either because captain is scum or because scum feared him being docced), but I find it unlikely that the doctor picked the same target in this case. It's possible, yes, but very unlikely, since I don't really see an obvious second place target for either. The chance of captain not being scum and the doctor deciding on a different target and guessing right feels very unlikely compared to the chance of both scum and the docter targetting Captain.

2) ....I had not considered that. I have never seen a BPV in a NOC game outside of it being on a SK, so the thought had not crossed my mind.

This really makes me want to lynch you.

It's D2, we have one flipped role plus a bit more info.  I'm making no assumptions about the roles and who targeted who, other than a theoretical BPV not being an idiot.  Maybe the doctor saved someone.  Maybe we have a jailer.  Maybe the mafia forgot to send in an action.

The certainty that you're stating this with is what I have issue with.

41 minutes ago, Beppi The Clown said:

That said ... Werner, do you think Rumor is still scum, and what do you think of Rumor and Maria's interactions?

Current read: Still waffling.  The quote burst made me feel a bit better about the slot, and there's something else that's making me hesitate.

I don't think Honeybottoms and Maria are scumbuddies.  If they are, hats off to the most convincing bus I've ever seen.

I have a theory that needs to be tested:

##Unvote
##Vote: Sally Stageplay

If my theory is correct, whoever was responsible for the lack of kill on N1 is going to die tonight.  Also, if my theory is correct, D3 should involve a lot less screaming, since I think said role is one of today's points of contention.  Can't believe I'm lynching for the sake of roles this early.

[Cú Chulainn]

I'm awake, catching up now but don't expect a post from me for a few hours probably.

[Ochako Uraraka]

@Sally Stageplay What I don't like about your post addressing me is that you say that I'm scum and also that with  bad cases on me mafia need to be bussing me here, but who then, according to you are my scumbuddies? Cagney was the first to push even if you say that his his cases doesn't interpret my words right. But according to you scum must be hopping on to me fast, then how does Cagney fit the bill here? Also when questioned about Rumor-my interactions you say that they don't look like scum. So who do you think should be scumbuddies with me, then? Hilda, Captain, Werner?

[Olivier]

5 hours ago, Dr. Kahl said:

 Cali probably dropped her case on you to vote Djimmi.  Why didn't you mention this earlier, though?  Hilda vote doesn't show any signs of reading a past game, just Cali going "this person didn't do shit on D1 and was scum, and so is Hilda" which reads more scum referencing a past game to me.

I hadn't taken a serious look at anyone D1 and no one but Cagney was really talking about them anyway. When I reread during N1 I found their early stuff suspicious but that felt a lot like a towntell to me. Their response makes me more confident that they did accurately guess my identity, and based on that I feel if they were scum they wouldn't have said anything. 

@Beppi The Clown I figure you are either gonna get NK'd or will be a late game PoE because of your comment about not being lynched. I'm still kind of uncomfortable with your slot but I feel like it will sort itself out?

Wally's posts today feel very town. It's difficult to fake this kind of engagement imo and his indignation with Werner and Briney feels legitimate. His suspicion on those slots is misguided imo but it doesn't feel scummy to me

I need to take a look at Kahl and Sally but I'm also hungry so that'll have to wait

if I missed anything else directed at me give me a shout

[Ochako Uraraka]

I  thought of responding to Kahl but that'll have to wait; I don't have time to post more.

[Marisa Kirisame]

if Cala and I are both scum that means I would have had to hard bus my buddy that had like no fire until my first vote on her. 

I'm back home and I have to catch up big time. give me a little bit.

[Marisa Kirisame]

On 2/5/2018 at 6:22 PM, Baroness Von Bon Bon said:

You acknowledge that someone has scummy play but would instead lynch someone else at complete random with a turbo instead?

????

am I the only one who thought this came off like an opportunistic potshot at Brineybeard? I've done stuff like this as scum & I don't know if this was supposed to be a "can you clarify" or "I think what you just said is scummy." I didn't have time yesterday to pull this out (I ended up having to do something right at phase end) but it's the little things like this that get me. I do think this is scummy and I haven't been paying enough attention to Bon Bon since I switched my vote on them so I'll revisit them later. And I swear I will and this isn't just a "hey this thing this person did is scummy" and not come back to it ever again. these bigger posts take a lot out of me

Quote

anyways I changed my mind about Cala after rereading the thread overnight. I said yesterday that they had the best vote on Djimmi because they were the only one who was suspecting Djimmi the whole time. While that lends credibility to the reasoning behind the vote, the timing is still suspect. I don't find it scummy that they didn't revote right after, unvoting Cagney but it is suspicious that they didn't vote Djimmi until other people did. Basically, I think it's plausible that the Djimmi thing was just supposed to be a side thing, and then once they saw that people were actually willing to lynch Djimmi they voted onto the wagon.

this is kind of still a whole lot of the reason I'm hung up on Cala but I told myself I would try and get through everyone else instead of make this whole thing about Cala because everyone knows I still think Cala is scum and I should focus my scumhunting elsewhere now.

(I will admit I did probably misinterpret Cala's wording wrt "you admitted your wording is bad" with my Grim vote but I still have enough reason to believe they're scum anyway.)

(also Cala digging up the old thread is null. this is reminding me of Persona 5 where BBM was like SUPER CONVINCED Marth was town solely on the fact Marth read through a previous game to solidify his townread on BBM. this is something scum could have picked up from that game and decided to use, which is why I'm super wary about it in this game, since it allowed Marth a pass like the whole game and although Marth was town in that scenario he could have ridden off that as scum so. yeah. null.)

I still don't know how I feel about Rumor. they don't seem like someone who is good at wallposts and I think that's what's been pinging people. I like to think I'm good at picking out weird playstyles considering I have one lol so when I keep that in mind they just don't really stick out to me, though I would like to see them put more effort into scumhunting because so far they haven't really been doing that, weird playstyle or not. they list reads but don't pursue any of them and they never like... vote anyone. now, listing their reads without explaining any of them is one matter (and a playstyle thing), but not doing ANYTHING with those reads is another matter. but would scum be this blatant about not doing much at all? I know a few people have asked that and I'm always the one pushing the "being bad town =/= being scum" agenda so I dunno man I don't know about this one. here's another, probably better question: would scum come in and basically just be like "all of these cases are good on me lol" "fair point" to all of the votes on them?? I would still have to end this in I can't really say I'm reading them as scum, but as always I'll consolidate if they end up being the lynch. I don't particularly want to lynch them though.

I HAVE been getting vibes from Sally, and at the time I didn't have time to read so I didn't feel like going "hey I got vibes on Sally" and not elaborating on it. Brineybeard had a good case on them (and their case on Sally is kind of why I'm townreading Brineybeard, because trying to start a turbo on someone with no votes on them like 40 minutes before phase end is a fucking ballsy move for scum to make, not that scum WOULDN'T do that and I'm pretty sure Brineybeard's player is experienced enough that something like that wouldn't be completely out of left field, but I'm going to try not to overthink it because I fuck up my reads when I overthink and I have no reason otherwise to think Briney is scum), & I've been reading them from the start of day 2 onwards.

(the following quotes are all from Sally)

Quote

Alright, seems like a lot is happening now. The no night kill solidifies my town read on the captain, since other scenarios where scum misses a kill seem unlikely. It also makes me pretty
certain scum doesn't have a strongman, or at least not one they could use last night for if that ever becomes relevant.

this is filler and something I could see scum churning out just for the purpose of having it out there. feigning ignorance in regards to the setup and throwing it out as content, for example.

also how could they have found Rumor's list helpful? did they just mean it helps them read Rumor better or what?

Quote

I don't really like this slot for the Hilda thing, but these cases are making me think scum is trying to jump on the wagon here. Can't really vote Cala though, since that'll put them on L-1,
so:

(rumor vote)

Really want to hear them answer my questions for now.

see this is weird because then they go on to vote Rumor anyway. I don't really get it. I don't like this vote because it's basically a pressure vote worded differently. they're not clear about whether they think Rumor is scum or not; they just park their vote on them with the "I want them to answer my questions" line. I don't like that.

Quote

I do think Cala is scum, but other scum could be trying to bus her (or I could be wrong). Obviously, not all of Honeybottoms/Cagney/Kahl can be scum as well as her, but should I leave one of their bad cases out then? That would make a lot less sense to me.

they think Cala is scum, but their vote is on Rumor. also really don't like the "should I not point out bad cases if I don't think the person who made the case is scum" rhetoric? both town and scum can make bad cases, & scum often do the "faux scumhunt" where they vote & case people for being "unhelpful" and having "bad logic" but not necessarily because they think they are scum, because scum knows they are scum. wording is important. I don't know if I'm explaining this right but I hope you get me. this is especially a thing newer scum are prone to do, but I don't know who Sally is, so that's kinda void I guess. it's not just new players though; people who are new to being scum are prone to doing it too.

I would put my vote here over Rumor. I still want to keep my vote on Cala but I'll probably end up switching if the Cala wagon loses steam again. I would like a Sally lynch today if possible, if only because I can't shake my vibes off them.

sorry about all the words. I hate making long posts but you know how it is.
btw the whole Cuphead OST is on Spotify and it's very good if you guys wanna give it a listen.
cagney OUT until tomorrow probably

[Marisa Kirisame]

since I switched my vote OFF them*

sorry typo

[Marisa Kirisame]

another thing about Rumor is I know some other maf forums aren't as frivolous with their votes, as in they are a lot more hesitant to vote and that's just the general playstyle of the environment. I dunno. I'm probably overthinking this. really wish Rumor would like push/vote someone though.

 

[C. C.]

@Wally- I don't think I'm inventing reasons on Rumor's behalf. I said that it looks like she just changed her mind about her reads, which is what she said as well. She just didn't say why very much (although she should). I think honestly that the main difference here between us is that because I'm a lot more suspicious of Cala, so I read Rumor's Cala case and I think it's okay. I do agree that it's based on just one or two posts and that's bad but I don't really agree with your actual analysis of her post. She's maybe exaggerating a bit but I think the general sentiment is right. I also don't really agree that it was a popular vote because she was only 3rd on the wagon.

7 hours ago, Sally Stageplay said:

I find Cala suspicious and would have voted there if it wasn't for her being at L-2.

My problem with the wagon is more the number of bad cases on it then that I actively scumread those cases individually. I'm somehow finding it hard to believe so many ended up on a scum slot by coincidence. Upon thinking more about it, it sounds more like me being overly paranoid though, so whatever. I should probably get of the idea everyone is playing good or something I guess.

This just seems so contradictory to me. If there are a lot of bad cases and you find it hard to believe that they all ended up on a scum slot by coincidence, you have to either think that Cala isn't actually scum, people are bussing. Why would first you assume that everyone is playing good if you think the cases are bad, rather than trying to determine who might be bussing?

@Cagney- I think Baroness just misread one of my posts at that point? don't really think you're right about that. I agree with most of the rest of what you said though

[Marisa Kirisame]

11 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

@Cagney- I think Baroness just misread one of my posts at that point? don't really think you're right about that. I agree with most of the rest of what you said though

feels like it could have been done in a different way though mrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Estelle]

3 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

 

@Beppi The Clown I figure you are either gonna get NK'd or will be a late game PoE because of your comment about not being lynched. I'm still kind of uncomfortable with your slot but I feel like it will sort itself out?

Beppi's comment was my-levels of cryptic - in other words, it'll be important later.  BTW, who's scum after that flurry of posts?

Bonbon needs to hurry up with her reread, because this is the second-to-the-last time I'll be here this phase.  Cagney, what's your thoughts on the bird?

@Dr. Kahl I think I figured out what's up with Hilda.

12 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

Honestly, mostly because this is your ONLY argument against me. I haven't seen any arguments besides ''Hilda played veeeery similiar to this player''. It feels like you are just picking a very easy target, because that is what it is. Easy. No effort went into it whatsoever. Another very sus post of you is this. 

''Sally>Wally and tbh Rumor's vote gave me cognitive dissonance but I still want to believe they're town. Anyway, I'm voting neither of Sally/Wally''

This was posted in the same post where you voted me. You mention they have suspicious behaviour but you still decide to not vote them, and instead vote for me, who you have way less arguments for. You still want to believe they're town? Why exactly? What have they done to deserve that in your book? It makes simply no sense.

A rather reflexive defense, which also pushes Maria.

11 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

I don't even know what you're trying to tell me here. Also note how Maria completely bypassed my response to her.

First sentence - that's fair.  Second sentence - "I'm going to keep shoving my case".  Wasn't really needed, since I was already voting Maria at the time.

The vibe I get is someone who's trying to persuade themselves.  It's not worth a case (or even a vote), but it's something to keep an eye out for in future phases.  There's another quote I can't find that was in this vein.

[Marisa Kirisame]

oh fuck i forgot about wally. he'll be another part of my reread tomorrow. i need to sleep

[Kamina]

I just ... got hit with a wave of feeling really unwell. Sorry, I was hoping to be able to read a bit more tonight, but I don't think that's going to happen. So for now I'll just dump a few things on my mind and I'll be around for a bit to answer any questions, but I probably won't be able to contribute much until tomorrow evening.

A few people seem to be throwing out that Rumor may be a player not from SF or something? I mean, okay? Not sure how people are aware of that unless I'm just misreading things, but whatever. I'm still not wholly okay on that slot just because their most recent reads post only had one strong scum read and one null-scum read. Actually, I think that someone else mentioned this earlier, but I seem to recall Rumor's D1 suspicion being on Matchstick (and never actually voting them), but at the beginning of this phase just dismisses Matchstick and me as "town" based on tone. Okay? Does that mean Matchstick and my interactions absolve him completely of your previous scum read on them?

There are things this slot is doing (and not doing) that just does not make me feel good.

Sally's recent posts just don't feel all that good to me. I feel like I already explained my reasons and why I don't like Maria rad, so I don't want to go over it again, but the rest of their stuff from D1 feels rather unmemorable as well, and noncommittal as well. Aside from Djimmi, a lot of their statements about people seem to be a bit open-ended like it's trying to avoid saying for sure they think a certain action is towny or scummy.

Rumor and Maria's interactions feel like there should be at least one scum between them (I think I also mentioned this). I don't think we can throw out the possibility of a bus, but I admit it doesn't seem likely both are scum. Between the two of them, who I think is more likely to be scum is ... well, it's still Rumor. I mean, I'm not at all wowed by Maria's content, but between her and Rumor I think I've found myself more consistently bothered by stuff Rumor does. Although, I have to question, do you really think Hilda is scum? Just ... ignore making comparisons to other players and other games. In the context of this game only, assuming you don't know the player's identity, do you still think that they are scum? And if you do, who else is scum?

Don't think I have an issue with Wally, although I am curious to know who else they think is scum besides Rumor. Also, if Captain and Werner dropped dead right now and were both town, who else makes sense as Rumor's scum buddies?

I think Cagney is town. Based on what I know, I currently have a pretty good reason to believe that they're town.

Baroness: It's been over six hours, where are you I keep forgetting this slot exists. Will need to reread them.

To anyone I didn't mention: you're cool, or I just forgot about you. Shout loudly if you want to know which one applies to you.

[Marisa Kirisame]

hey everyone I'm gonna be without a computer for a few days up to a week. I know I said I was going to sleep but this is a thing that just happened. I'll be phone-bound and my posts are probably going to be shorter and a little more spammy. sorry in advance

[C. C.]

@Beppi

21 hours ago, Rumor Honeybottoms said:

i'll admit to being an offsiter - i'm sure this was far from a grand revelation lmao

gimme a few to reread the cases on me and i'll get back to you

wally, what is your opinion about Sally? I don't think you've mentioned her much at all other than to say you don't have an opinion on her because she didn't post much on D1 until after you did

i'm at sally > cala > rumor out of the main lynch targets today. just a heads up that I'm super busy tomorrow and will probably only have time for a few small posts, if any at all, until late in the evening

[Violet Evergarden]

I wake up to see Rumor dissappeared and didn't comment on anything, super good.

3 hours ago, Beppi The Clown said:

I'm still not wholly okay on that slot just because their most recent reads post only had one strong scum read and one null-scum read. Actually, I think that someone else mentioned this earlier

*screams externally*

Cagney is VERY town because I don't think Rumor's scumbuddy would just sheep her super quick like he did on page 4.
Hilda is ???????? No read here hoping others can guide me a bit on this one tbh. @Hilda Berg Do you have any opinions on other people not named Cala?
Not sure about Sally either, her vote could be a bus as it's very open to being swapped later. Never really thought much of the cases though.
Captain's case on BBvB back on D1 was good. Eager to see what they will produce D2.

I think Kahl makes a good scumbuddy with Rumor as well because of this post:

Spoiler

14 hours ago, Dr. Kahl said:

Lynch priority is kind of wack because I don't know who bothers me more between Wally/Sally (Sally is more in the background which fits the scum MO more but Wally is doing more things that are actively bothering me), I'm flipflopping on Hilda (what I mentioned earlier holds true but I dunno...something just seems off about her followups to her cases).  Maybe third scum is Baroness/Cagney, I don't even know.

Where it has become apparent that he has dropped his rumor suspicion completely for reasons not explained. Could have been an attempted bus gone wrong today. I also think interjecting the Cala vs Rumor discussion regarding the self preservation comment was pretty weird. For the record I agree with what he said but there's no need for him to interject there and get in the way of the argument.

6 hours ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

@Wally- I don't think I'm inventing reasons on Rumor's behalf. I said that it looks like she just changed her mind about her reads, which is what she said as well. She just didn't say why very much (although she should). I think honestly that the main difference here between us is that because I'm a lot more suspicious of Cala, so I read Rumor's Cala case and I think it's okay. I do agree that it's based on just one or two posts and that's bad but I don't really agree with your actual analysis of her post. She's maybe exaggerating a bit but I think the general sentiment is right. I also don't really agree that it was a popular vote because she was only 3rd on the wagon.

Where did she say that she changed her mind about her reads?

You think the general sentiment is right?

Spoiler

Is this useless fluff?

Quote

I read the EoD votals and compared them with previous votals. I don't feel like Djimmi was being presented as a counterwagon as such to Beppi and Werner, but that's also because I townread both of them. I feel like if there are scum on the Djimmi wagon its probably the ones who changed their view on Djimmi or just went for consolidation. Mafia is probably more passive than not.

Is the following piggybacked read scummy in any way?

Quote

I agree with Captain Brineybeard that Sally's post wrt handling their rumor read was bad. Like she made an entire paragraph about why Rumor was not scum in her eyes, only to entertain the notion of her read being wrong. There's scum intent here because mafia try to avoid being 'wrong' and this is like she's trying to weasel out of a commitment to a read.

Explain how the following is waffling:

Quote

I think in vacuum Kahl sticking with the Rumor vote looks bad but Rumor's play hasn't changed or done anything different fro him to possibly change his read with her so I'm actually fine with his vote on her. I don't really have anything to say about Rumor because YES I don't see scum intent in scumreading someone but not voting them but if you're doing this continuously then you're avoiding associative tells which fucks the town over.

For the record, I think you can disagree with someone's case and think they are fine.

By the way, this is the ONLY post that Rumor based it off of, not "one or two posts".

Cala was a pretty widespread scumread though, I even got that feeling from the end of D1 as I skimmed it in a half-dead haze.

[Aizen]

Day 2.3 - Votals
Cala Maria (3): Cagney Carnation, Rumor Honeybottoms, Hilda Berg
Rumor Honeybottoms (3): Beppi The Clown, Wally Warbles, Sally Stageplay
Sally Stageplay (2): Captain Brineybeard, Werner Werman
Hilda Berg (1): Cala Maria
Wally Warbles (1): Dr. Kahl
Not Voting (2): Baroness Von Bon Bon, Grim Matchstick

You have 37 hours and 44 minutes left in the day. With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Edited February 8, 2018 by King Dice

[Refakitty³]

Cala is my main scumread, so naturally I'm going to focus on her. Doesn't mean I don't have opinions of others, I just don't have a lot to say about them. I would really like to hear more of Rumor, what they think about everything. Also Wally I don't see what about Cagney screams town to you? What has he done to deserve a townread? Please enlighten me Senpai. Slight scumread on Sally for not really having a lot of reads and kind of just following the flow. Other players i'm null on. No one really screams town to me honestly.

[Violet Evergarden]

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Cagney is VERY town because I don't think Rumor's scumbuddy would just sheep her super quick like he did on page 4.

 

[Refakitty³]

That's assuming Rumor is scum.

[Marisa Kirisame]

5 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

Also Wally I don't see what about Cagney screams town to you? What has he done to deserve a townread? Please enlighten me Senpai. 

damn son, do you think I'm scum?

[Refakitty³]

36 minutes ago, Cagney Carnation said:

damn son, do you think I'm scum?

No.

[Olivier]

14 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

I need to take a look at Kahl and Sally but I'm also hungry so that'll have to wait

this took longer than expected

[C. C.]

@wally- the wagon analysis isn't ~useless~ but it's also not very useful either. just a generalization about the type of people on the wagon who might be scum without then actually looking at those people to determine whether or not they're scum. the people who voted to consolidate were mostly Cagney and Beppi, does she think either of those two are scum? iirc no but I don't have time to check her posts atm, but regardless that's not presented there. that type of general wagon analysis is very easy to fabricate for scum because you're just talking about game theory essentially, not the alignment of an actual player. piggybacking isn't scummy in and of itself but it's not your own content that you're producing. that last paragraph is also obviously waffling on Rumor, though not on Kahl.

so as a whole the only original point that she produced in that post where she actually gave an opinion about a player's alignment was the bit about Kahl.