Cuphead In: Don't Deal With the Mafia (Game Over)

[Olivier]

neither of their actions make sense to me as scummy

like, I think Rumor's content has been entirely unhelpful to the rest of the town but I agree with Briney that it doesn't make sense for scum (except for the part Wally quoted, echoing that skepticism). I'm pretty torn which is why I'm asking them for more of an explanation. It's easy to bullshit "yeah this looks like town infighting" or "this is a good post" but my gut is telling me I'm wrong about that making him scum

and I feel I've explained my issues with scum!Cala 

I also still feel bad about BvBB but no one else seems to agree with me and they've not posted so I don't really have anything to add other than bitching about them not posting.

[C. C.]

it's not like Cala was totally blocking you off as a lynch? she just says she's waffling on you. she also never voted you and although there were one or two votes on you, you were never a serious wagon at any point afaicr.

actually rereading past games for meta instead of recalling it off the top of my head is way more effort than I would ever go to as town or mafia, but considering they're doing it to push a lynch it's not alignment indicative. I think generally rereading a past game to defend someone/townread them is town (this is something Marth does as town for example) but doing it to scumread them could come from either alignment.

@wally- not sure how willful your stubbornness is here. either way I'm not going to listen to a rumor case that's predicated on them not knowing how to play mafia

[Olivier]

ik but they've totally dropped me as a case today which is also weird? Plus they would know me well enough that they I would come down on them with the force of a thousand storms if they tried that shit after making a post claiming they know my meta? Like, regardless it doesn't seem to have any real reason as a scum motivation

[C. C.]

to clarify wrt Wally, I don't know whether his stubbornness is town tunneling or scum acting on bad faith.

@matchstick- maybe? I'm not really sure who you are and I'm not really sure who Cala is either. 

anyways I really do have to sleep now.

[C. C.]

that kind of reads like me copping out of the question. what I meant to communicate was that I don't know if Cala is even correct about who you are and whether she would in fact know you well enough to know that. I also think that while that action may not be scummy, it's not townie either, certainly not enough to cancel out everything else

[Olivier]

well

I know who I am

and while I'm not sure who Cala is I can narrow them down to like 5 people based on that remark assuming they're right

and while they might be wrong, I feel like they are right because my meta is generally easy to read, and so I feel by them saying this they're sort of committing to not lynching me

and I feel by doing this it's sort of towntelling

but this probably has to wait for Cala to follow up and give thoughts on my slot

[Refakitty³]

My main problem with Cala's case is not that she's rereading an old game (Well, partly), but that she takes a game that happened months back, instead of a more recent one.

[Violet Evergarden]

This is quickly turning into a quote dump so I'll put my Werner stuff here so it doesn't cramp the page up.

Spoiler

13 minutes ago, Werner Werman said:

Biggest scumtell from you is that last passive-aggressive sentence in the first quote.  My vote is elsewhere.  Why would it bother you so that there's maybe one other person besides me that doesn't see you as town?

Undermining someone without justification is super scummy. Still would love an "unnecessary words" explanation for this reason. I don't care if they don't see me as town, where are you getting this from? Are you just making stuff up for fun, or are you actually scum?

Quote

It's a town read on Briney and reasons why you're a null read.  Hardly padding.

A town read on a universal townread and explaining a null read through waffling is not good content it is padding.

Quote

You say sheeping isn't scummy, yet hold it as a point against Honeybottoms.

No I didn't? Honeybottoms used it against Cala and I said that's dumb.

Quote

That first paragraph could've been reduced to the first sentence.

You cannot be serious. There is no way that that paragraph can be reduced down to

Quote

I feel like that is a very dishonest misinterpretation of Cala's post.

This would be without explaining how it was a dishonest interpretation at all. Are you just trolling me or something?

Quote

Why was this necessary?

..It's necessary because it supports my case on her being scum. Am I supposed to omit it because the rest of my points are rock solid proof that Rumor has to be mafia? While I think so clearly there are unconvinced players here.

17 minutes ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

@wally- not sure how willful your stubbornness is here. either way I'm not going to listen to a rumor case that's predicated on them not knowing how to play mafia

Please explain why Rumors responses make you think this:

"like if rumor is scum who has trouble making cases, would they be able to rattle off the string of content they just did?"

What is good about this string of content? Besides that, you keep missing the point. The point isn't about cases it's about good, solid ones, it's about ones that stick in their own mind that they keep an eye on for the rest of the game. If town thinks that they have good reason to suspect someone else, that they have a solid case, then they don't just forget about them/that person. They don't leave them by the wayside and not push them, especially going into a new day. Even if they don't vote they don't forget and they don't blindly drop. Town have a tendency to remember and be watchful because they're not trying to come up with something that will appease the masses for a day they are trying to catch scum and that comes with scepticism that Rumor doesn't have. By the way the point about not having cases rings very true right now though.

But hey regardless, let's review my analysis of her actual content some more since you seem to want to handwave my arguments as tunneling and obsessing over the lack of reads. Let's look at her one and only scum case. It is a case based entirely around one post, and consists being overly dismissive of the content of that post and overgeneralising it or accusing them of being scummy for a bad and easy reason (sheeping i so bad guys amirite). Her others reads are padded non points like her null read on me, her town read on Captain is hardly breaking boundaries, and a couple of townreads, some of which need further explanation. So here is your case Captain that isn't entirely around the fact that Rumor is not committing to their cases.

Quote

scum usually tend to err towards the side of pushing mislynches over the side of not pushing anything

The important thing is that they can choose to do both, there is reason to not commit as I explained. You definitely get pushback for leading a failed wagon, you won't get pushback for being disconnected from your reads if everyone accepts your read and you lurk successfully in the background enough. Importantly, there is reason to behave in this way so I don't think the defence of "why wouldn't she push her reads?" is very valid.

She could have also just forgotten to vote at the end of her page 3 post anyway. It's not a big error and can definitely happen even if you know how to play mafia.

Cala is town making a bad case but Grim has explained that well and my thoughts on her vs Rumor are clear.

Rumor's most likely scum buddies imo are Captain and Werner as they're the only two that have really actively came in to defend her and both are being pretty dismissive/overgeneralising of my case. Who are Cala's scumbuddies in this scenario?

[Ochako Uraraka]

I didn't mention Cagney,Grim or BvBB so I should talk about them:

With Grim I feel like Grim is the player who struggles early in the game making cases but gets better as the game goes by and is very good at the endgame so I didn't want to vote him on chance that if he was scum it would show in his play since he wouldn't be able to come up with content or reads D2, I didn't feel like voting him would be correct since I had a good idea of his play. I also feel like the huge wall post he posted today is good although I disagree with his Beppi case. I agree with the BvBB case which I'll get to. I really don't know who Cagney is and don't know why some people townread him, not sure what I'm missing here. @Grim Matchstick I townread Beppi partly on an identity read but also Beppi I feel would have just used sickness as an excuse to not participate in the discussion as mafia at that point in the game. I also feel like Beppi in general being part of the discussion more often than the other players comes from a town mindset. I feel like his reads are vague in the sense that they all sound the same in the he handles them but I feel like he'd do this as either alignment. Also feel like he wouldn't talk about not being lynched today as mafia but I'd rather not expand on that.

 

With BvBB I agree with Grim that coming on at deadline and picking an argument with Briney is an easy out for scum, they get away with not contributing reads. I think the part where she go es from Djimmi being null to acknowledging the possibility of voting djimmi to saying that she wanted to vote djimmi only out of consolidation is really bad because their explanation doesn't really match up with their posts. If you thought of voting out of consolidation then why did you even think about being swayed in the first place?

 

Cagney tbh the only thing I have is a defence because most of his content after my initial vote on him has been related to me.

[Ochako Uraraka]

4 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

My main problem with Cala's case is not that she's rereading an old game (Well, partly), but that she takes a game that happened months back, instead of a more recent one.

I want to show that you are playing similar to a scum!player in a past mafia game. So I present the most recent game where said player was scum. He wasn't scum in any of the recent games. So why would I point to a recent game?

 

Are you solely scumreading me for this then? Because if you think my case is weak then your argument is just as weak if not worse.

[Refakitty³]

3 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

I want to show that you are playing similar to a scum!player in a past mafia game. So I present the most recent game where said player was scum. He wasn't scum in any of the recent games. So why would I point to a recent game?

 

Are you solely scumreading me for this then? Because if you think my case is weak then your argument is just as weak if not worse.

Honestly, mostly because this is your ONLY argument against me. I haven't seen any arguments besides ''Hilda played veeeery similiar to this player''. It feels like you are just picking a very easy target, because that is what it is. Easy. No effort went into it whatsoever. Another very sus post of you is this. 

''Sally>Wally and tbh Rumor's vote gave me cognitive dissonance but I still want to believe they're town. Anyway, I'm voting neither of Sally/Wally''

This was posted in the same post where you voted me. You mention they have suspicious behaviour but you still decide to not vote them, and instead vote for me, who you have way less arguments for. You still want to believe they're town? Why exactly? What have they done to deserve that in your book? It makes simply no sense.

[Marisa Kirisame]

I'm reading right now and realizing yeah I've been kinda tunneling on Cala, I just got super excited I finally had a confident scumread lol. when I get home from work I'm going to read through players I haven't been paying as much attention to. falling kinda behind because I've been a little lazy sorry bros. will put in effort when I get home

[Ochako Uraraka]

5 hours ago, Captain Brineybeard said:

what is sleep

I'm preeeetty sure Hilda is not Michelaar from that game. Firstly, Hilda's comments imply that they've only played NOC on this website once or twice, and normally play offsite and in a different format. Michelaar has played NOC on SF at least 3-4 times and afaik hasn't played on another site or played any OC/EiMM games. even if Hilda is lying, their grammar, typing style, and tone don't read like Michelaar.

this feels like a scum case honestly. going back through cala's posts afaics this is all they've said about hilda in the past: "I don't give  a fuck if this one gets lynched: Hilda Berg(yeah, I can't say anything about someone who refuses to contribute to the discussion)". this meta case about hilda playing like michelaar could have been made at any point on D1. why make it now when Hilda actually tried for the first time and apologized and started moving away from being defensive and frustrated and posted content? not to mention, there's no attempt at actually analyzing this content.

also, this might be bias on my part but I really dislike this: "I'm still holding to Town!Brineybeard because I haven't seen anything questionable from his play and the only thing I can even think of from scum!BB is not pushing Rumor harder as a counterwagon to Werner and Beppi since he didn't want to lynch either of them. This is tinfoil but I'd entertain this if he shows a history of pushing mislynches over he course of the game, would not lynch today."

this is the definition of trying to leave someone open to be a mislynch later on in the game. nobias but townies just say "yeah I really think this person is town and I would only vote them as a last resort". this is more like "yeah I think this person is town but actually there was this very slightly scummy thing they did and it's not important now but it might be important later if it keeps happening"

I don't see what you get from Hilda's comments but you're wrong about Michelaar not having played mafia before or OC. This is kind of derailing the discussion so I'll stop here but being dismissive like that is terrible.

I didn't make the meta point because I didn't make the connection to the identity before? Like this is the most obvious reason a town player would do this but you're just going to sidestep because in your eyes I fall outside of your PoE so of course you'd only  reason all arguments for me being scum. Also, EXACTLY,  Why would scum make a case based purely on meta on an inexperienced player when the player decides to do 'townie' things, when the scum has a gun to their head?  No really, what do I gain from making a case based on meta on someone 'attempting' to contribute to discussion? There was barely any support for a Hilda lynch D1, in fact more people gave her the newbie pass,why would I think that a Hilda vote would suddenly gain traction when I have my life on the line here.. Like where is the scum intent here? And I did analyze Hilda's recent post. What is townie about that? Like why does Hilda changing her stance on Beppi make her town? The support for the Beppi lynch died down sometime during D1, and I really don't see ANYTHING townie about the Grim vote, that shit is way too late for me to take that as a town vote. Like I don't even get the reason for the newbie pass, genuine frustration? Man I didn't know that being angry was a surefire ticket to signal to everyone that you're town.

If you're hurt that I talked about the possibility of you being scum, that's not my problem. I say that because in the chance that I die early and you are actually scum, town doesn't switch their brains off and think that you're obvtown just because you talk a lot. The whole leaving a person open to be a mislynch is a load of crap; you conveniently change your townreads and PoE shit left and right as is convenient to you regardless of your alignment, don't give me this.

 

[Ochako Uraraka]

On 2/4/2018 at 4:33 PM, Cagney Carnation said:

I mean Maria's initial reason for voting me is ok, I shouldn't have implied I was exclusively voting you for pressure when I wasn't. but I didn't feel like voting for Kahl and I don't feel like I gave enough reason or conviction to vote Kahl I literally just sat there & was like "I liked them until the vote switch" and Maria LITERALLY stated the same exact thing about Kahl, then followed that up with "I want to see more from them though" then sat her vote on me.

I don't know if I think Maria is scum off of just that though. I'm trying to look past the fact she's voting me.

@Cagney Carnation This is a late response but this is the post I was referring to when I said that you were admitting that you messed up. I don't see why the time of what you said matters because if you know that you fucked up then its totally valid for someone else to vote you for that. In any case, this was before I unvoted so you're wrong about this one.

 

You can call me hypocritical but the difference between our votes is that you voted Grim off of a sheep and tried to play it off as a pressure vote(according to me at that time anyway) while mine wasn't a sheep and I didn't try to make it out to be anything else. That's a big difference but you probably won't like this response because its against you. About conviction of my reads, no idea, that's a subjective claim I can't argue against.

 

My current read on you is that you kinda uh, tunneled on me since. I don't want to be biased here so yeah.

[Ochako Uraraka]

LIKE ok if this was some dumb 180 on Hilda I'd understand but she has been unhelpful and mostly just following the flow of the game and voting conveniently and I really think that it fits the bill for a scum!player I know. Excusing her actions as town is terrible; we had this stuff with Beast in the last game, I didn't even townread her yesterday and was fine with her lynch.

[Rain Nijika]

Alright, seems like a lot is happening now. The no night kill solidifies my town read on the captain, since other scenarios where scum misses a kill seem unlikely. It also makes me pretty
certain scum doesn't have a strongman, or at least not one they could use last night for if that ever becomes relevant.

I'm likely wrong with my assumption about Hilda's identity, since I'm pretty sure that person hasn't played mafia on a different site. I'll agree with the captain though, I doubt it's Michelaar.
I have a hard time believing that tone to come from him after more recent games. Minor nitpick though, Michelaar has played mafia on other sites. I'm happy they're putting in more effort now though, instead of trying to play the newbie card to high heavens like I'd have probably done as scum in their shoes.

@Rumor Honeybottoms's list of suspects is helpful, but I have one question:
Can you explain how Mathsticks went from your only scumread to a townread?
I understand his interaction with Beppi read town to you, but you do mention it only being on tone. I'm a bit suprised how that convinced you enough to not find his D1 relevant anymore
(since you don't mention it anywhere anymore).

I don't really think Cala digging up that thread is really a town tell in this case. The moment you relate Hilda to Michelaar (he has a very distinct playstyle), all you'd need to do is link
the thread of that game. It's not a lot of effort at all for anyone with a decent memory. Kind of agreeing with the Captain that this is a weird point in time to bring this up. It almost feels like they expected Hilda to get lynched eventually anyway, so they wouldn't need to push it, only to find them suddenly trying and getting away from being a misslynch.

@Cala Maria can you explain when and why you linked Hilda to Michelaar and why you brought it up when you did?

I feel a lot of cases on Cala seem to missinterpretations though. Rumor is voting them because not finding someone voting a towny scummy is a clear scumtell? That feels really dumb. For instance, The captain was trying to push a turbo on me last phase (I know I'm town), and I'm not scumreading him either. You can understand someone's logic without agreeing to it.
Cagney (and Kahl with him) seems to be interpreting the "You even said yourself your wording was bad, of course I'm gonna vote you for it" as meaning "I'm voting you because you admitted your wording was bad", even though I'm pretty sure it means "I'm voting you because you're wording was bad, you even admitted your wording was bad".

I don't really like this slot for the Hilda thing, but these cases are making me think scum is trying to jump on the wagon here. Can't really vote Cala though, since that'll put them on L-1,
so:

##Vote: Rumor Honeybottoms

Really want to hear them answer my questions for now.

[Estelle]

I don't feel like extracting quotes out of a spoiler.  People react in all sorts of ways when there's perceived pressure on them.  I stated my suspicion on you, and your response was what I'd expect if I'd made a bad case against you, complete with a vote and a call for a turbolynch.  Emotion is a null tell.  Emotional overreaction is a scumtell, which is why I have any sort of scumread on you right now.  Honeybottom's issue was not-town reads, so a null on you.  Even if it looks head-slappingly obvious, it was more than she put out D1.  I had a problem with Grim presupposing Beppi was mafia, and that extends to you and Honeybottoms.  If she randomly drops dead during this phase and flips town, then what?

5 hours ago, Hilda Berg said:

My main problem with Cala's case is not that she's rereading an old game (Well, partly), but that she takes a game that happened months back, instead of a more recent one.

So if she'd taken quotes out of the last anonymous game, it would be okay?  I'll have to disagree.

9 minutes ago, Cala Maria said:

That's a big difference but you probably won't like this response because its against you.

Being under pressure sucks, but this was uncalled for.

5 hours ago, Grim Matchstick said:

well

I know who I am

and while I'm not sure who Cala is I can narrow them down to like 5 people based on that remark assuming they're right

and while they might be wrong, I feel like they are right because my meta is generally easy to read, and so I feel by them saying this they're sort of committing to not lynching me

and I feel by doing this it's sort of towntelling

but this probably has to wait for Cala to follow up and give thoughts on my slot

Can you lay off the meta?  I appreciate being cleared because of it and all, but not everyone will come to the same conclusions about who's who in an anonymous game.  For example, Honeybottoms mentioned that she's not one of the regulars here.

1 minute ago, Cala Maria said:

LIKE ok if this was some dumb 180 on Hilda I'd understand but she has been unhelpful and mostly just following the flow of the game and voting conveniently and I really think that it fits the bill for a scum!player I know. Excusing her actions as town is terrible; we had this stuff with Beast in the last game, I didn't even townread her yesterday and was fine with her lynch.

She's been unhelpful this phase?  I can see her flow of logic, and she's no longer complaining about reading/contributing.

3 minutes ago, Sally Stageplay said:

Alright, seems like a lot is happening now. The no night kill solidifies my town read on the captain, since other scenarios where scum misses a kill seem unlikely. It also makes me pretty
certain scum doesn't have a strongman, or at least not one they could use last night for if that ever becomes relevant.

I'm likely wrong with my assumption about Hilda's identity, since I'm pretty sure that person hasn't played mafia on a different site. I'll agree with the captain though, I doubt it's Michelaar.
I have a hard time believing that tone to come from him after more recent games. Minor nitpick though, Michelaar has played mafia on other sites. I'm happy they're putting in more effort now though, instead of trying to play the newbie card to high heavens like I'd have probably done as scum in their shoes.

@Rumor Honeybottoms's list of suspects is helpful, but I have one question:
Can you explain how Mathsticks went from your only scumread to a townread?
I understand his interaction with Beppi read town to you, but you do mention it only being on tone. I'm a bit suprised how that convinced you enough to not find his D1 relevant anymore
(since you don't mention it anywhere anymore).

I don't really think Cala digging up that thread is really a town tell in this case. The moment you relate Hilda to Michelaar (he has a very distinct playstyle), all you'd need to do is link
the thread of that game. It's not a lot of effort at all for anyone with a decent memory. Kind of agreeing with the Captain that this is a weird point in time to bring this up. It almost feels like they expected Hilda to get lynched eventually anyway, so they wouldn't need to push it, only to find them suddenly trying and getting away from being a misslynch.

@Cala Maria can you explain when and why you linked Hilda to Michelaar and why you brought it up when you did?

I feel a lot of cases on Cala seem to missinterpretations though. Rumor is voting them because not finding someone voting a towny scummy is a clear scumtell? That feels really dumb. For instance, The captain was trying to push a turbo on me last phase (I know I'm town), and I'm not scumreading him either. You can understand someone's logic without agreeing to it.
Cagney (and Kahl with him) seems to be interpreting the "You even said yourself your wording was bad, of course I'm gonna vote you for it" as meaning "I'm voting you because you admitted your wording was bad", even though I'm pretty sure it means "I'm voting you because you're wording was bad, you even admitted your wording was bad".

I don't really like this slot for the Hilda thing, but these cases are making me think scum is trying to jump on the wagon here. Can't really vote Cala though, since that'll put them on L-1,
so:

##Vote: Rumor Honeybottoms

Really want to hear them answer my questions for now.

Here's the problem with this post:

Maria is either scum or she's not scum.  The people voting her are scum or they're not scum.  You're defending her via her wagon, yet saying that you'd want to vote her for her Hilda case.  Unless you think the scumteam is Maria/Honeybottoms/Cagney/Kahl (which is impossible), your logic makes no sense.

[Ochako Uraraka]

@Sally Stageplay ninja'd

[Refakitty³]

10 minutes ago, Werner Werman said:

 

So if she'd taken quotes out of the last anonymous game, it would be okay?  I'll have to disagree.

I don't even know what you're trying to tell me here. Also note how Maria completely bypassed my response to her.

[Rain Nijika]

4 minutes ago, Werner Werman said:

Here's the problem with this post:

Maria is either scum or she's not scum.  The people voting her are scum or they're not scum.  You're defending her via her wagon, yet saying that you'd want to vote her for her Hilda case.  Unless you think the scumteam is Maria/Honeybottoms/Cagney/Kahl (which is impossible), your logic makes no sense.

I can't call out people for having bad logic as long as they're voting someone I think is scum?

I do think Cala is scum, but other scum could be trying to bus her (or I could be wrong). Obviously, not all of Honeybottoms/Cagney/Kahl can be scum as well as her, but should I leave one of their bad cases out then? That would make a lot less sense to me.

@Cala Maria Okay, I guess you kind of responded to when now. Still though, what made you think of Michelaar after Hilda started cooperating? Did that switch and his new posts read like Michelaar as well to you?

[Estelle]

24 minutes ago, Hilda Berg said:

I don't even know what you're trying to tell me here. Also note how Maria completely bypassed my response to her.

Using another game as the basis for a case is bad, no matter how recent it is.  Each game has its own circumstances, so everyone's reactions will be different.

17 minutes ago, Sally Stageplay said:

I can't call out people for having bad logic as long as they're voting someone I think is scum?

I do think Cala is scum, but other scum could be trying to bus her (or I could be wrong). Obviously, not all of Honeybottoms/Cagney/Kahl can be scum as well as her, but should I leave one of their bad cases out then? That would make a lot less sense to me.

It reads like you're trying to give yourself a preemptive out, should Maria flip town.  Furthermore, your reason for disliking Cagney/Kahl is what reads to me like semantics.  I strongly dislike wording as a driving force for cases, because I can see what I'll post before I do so, and tailor my words accordingly.

If you think both Maria and Honeybottoms are scum, then the interactions a few pages back should be a bus in your books.  Is it?

[C. C.]

5 hours ago, Wally Warbles said:

This is quickly turning into a quote dump so I'll put my Werner stuff here so it doesn't cramp the page up.

  Reveal hidden contents

Undermining someone without justification is super scummy. Still would love an "unnecessary words" explanation for this reason. I don't care if they don't see me as town, where are you getting this from? Are you just making stuff up for fun, or are you actually scum?

A town read on a universal townread and explaining a null read through waffling is not good content it is padding.

No I didn't? Honeybottoms used it against Cala and I said that's dumb.

You cannot be serious. There is no way that that paragraph can be reduced down to

This would be without explaining how it was a dishonest interpretation at all. Are you just trolling me or something?

..It's necessary because it supports my case on her being scum. Am I supposed to omit it because the rest of my points are rock solid proof that Rumor has to be mafia? While I think so clearly there are unconvinced players here.

Please explain why Rumors responses make you think this:

"like if rumor is scum who has trouble making cases, would they be able to rattle off the string of content they just did?"

What is good about this string of content? Besides that, you keep missing the point. The point isn't about cases it's about good, solid ones, it's about ones that stick in their own mind that they keep an eye on for the rest of the game. If town thinks that they have good reason to suspect someone else, that they have a solid case, then they don't just forget about them/that person. They don't leave them by the wayside and not push them, especially going into a new day. Even if they don't vote they don't forget and they don't blindly drop. Town have a tendency to remember and be watchful because they're not trying to come up with something that will appease the masses for a day they are trying to catch scum and that comes with scepticism that Rumor doesn't have. By the way the point about not having cases rings very true right now though.

But hey regardless, let's review my analysis of her actual content some more since you seem to want to handwave my arguments as tunneling and obsessing over the lack of reads. Let's look at her one and only scum case. It is a case based entirely around one post, and consists being overly dismissive of the content of that post and overgeneralising it or accusing them of being scummy for a bad and easy reason (sheeping i so bad guys amirite). Her others reads are padded non points like her null read on me, her town read on Captain is hardly breaking boundaries, and a couple of townreads, some of which need further explanation. So here is your case Captain that isn't entirely around the fact that Rumor is not committing to their cases.

The important thing is that they can choose to do both, there is reason to not commit as I explained. You definitely get pushback for leading a failed wagon, you won't get pushback for being disconnected from your reads if everyone accepts your read and you lurk successfully in the background enough. Importantly, there is reason to behave in this way so I don't think the defence of "why wouldn't she push her reads?" is very valid.

She could have also just forgotten to vote at the end of her page 3 post anyway. It's not a big error and can definitely happen even if you know how to play mafia.

Cala is town making a bad case but Grim has explained that well and my thoughts on her vs Rumor are clear.

Rumor's most likely scum buddies imo are Captain and Werner as they're the only two that have really actively came in to defend her and both are being pretty dismissive/overgeneralising of my case. Who are Cala's scumbuddies in this scenario?

Okay, so I feel like your argument has changed from when you first made it. This was your argument when you first voted Rumor: "Anyway, main target of the day should probably be Rumor as they spent the entire time on their RVS post as someone else deftly mentioned. I don't think this is a case of "too scummy to be scum" either as struggling to come up with solid cases and reads is very common for scum. "

Although you use the word "solid cases" both in the original vote and here, the original vote implies that she's scum struggling to come up with content, because that's what people had talked about to that point wrt Rumor. That's what I've been arguing against. Here it's more about her having no consistency to her reads which is scummy because she's just making content to appease the masses as opposed to because she actually finds them scummy. This is a good point and I agree that this is possible and fits with her play, but it's not what you were saying at the beginning (or at least I didn't interpret it that way). If you're able to make content to appease people then you're not a person who would struggle to come up with reads. These are two totally different things that are done by two different types of scum. That was my point.

I just don't really agree with this bolded part. if she's just making cases to appease people then why wouldn't she have voted someone yesterday like she did today? Surely that's appeasing people more? not voting at all is not a good way to successfully lurk in the background. also imo you get more pushback for being lurky than pushing failed wagons, although it depends on the context obviously. there was a failed wagon yesterday and you're not pushing anybody on it; you're pushing somebody who was lurking D1. Also if you successfully pushed a lynch (and actually drove it, not just jumped on at the end), it means that people were actually listening to you (again, Cagney listened to Rumor!) and you're probably not going to get suspected.

i guess she could have just forgotten to vote but given that she had several posts on d1 where she could have voted and didn't I don't think this was the case? especially since people were asking her about this pretty frequently.

possible scumbuddies for Cala: you, Kahl, Sally, Matchstick. i'm not really sure if it's just coincidence or circlejerking that the people who have either defended Cala or not said much about her are all ones who I was already considering to be part of the possible scum pool. I would probably push Kahl on this first if Cala flipped scum because you, Sally, and Matchstick have all been actively defending Cala, whereas Kahl has not really said much about her at all other than one response to her self-preservation comment and saying that Rumor's Cala case is fine.

In fact regardless of Cala's alignment, given that she's been one of the two big wagons today, the fact that Kahl hasn't given a proper read on Cala is suspicious.

[C. C.]

to expand on the two different scum thing:

Scum A: has trouble generating content so they only have a few cases throughout the game. this person is NOT going to forget what those cases were because they're not good enough to just come up with new content on the fly

Scum B: They'll produce reads but won't commit to them too much, and their content will spike when under suspicion or when prodded, but otherwise they're just trying to stay under the radar and blend in.

although Rumor fits the scum B profile much better than she fits the scum A profile there are still some things that don't make sense, like not voting anybody yesterday. I think that's more likely to be town who's not confident enough to commit.

[Kamina]

Uhh that is a whole lot of posts cropping up during my off-time. This might take me a while to read through, give me some time.

[Refakitty³]

26 minutes ago, Werner Werman said:

Using another game as the basis for a case is bad, no matter how recent it is.  Each game has its own circumstances, so everyone's reactions will be different.

I can actually agree with this.