lucina

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Truthblade said:

Fewer differences do not equal less difference. In fact, the lack of the tipper allows Lucina to do things that Marth would get killed trying to do, as he can pretty much only kill with the tipper. It is one difference but far from a small one. Unlike Pit and Dark Pit for example, as while they do have differences, they are so miniscule that it hardly differentiates their playstyles.

Well, in any case, I still feel both would be better off as alt models/costumes. And as I said, this is coming from a Dark Pit fan. He's my favorite Kid Icarus character. But for the sake of variety, I feel he should be an alt costume for Pit and Viridi ought to be a newcomer if there are any.

[dmurr]

1 hour ago, Anacybele said:

Well, my honest opinion is that despite how popular she is, if she's going to just be a Marth clone, she should go. She's another sword character who doesn't really bring anything unique. And people complain too much about how many reps this series gets. I'm thinking the FE Switch lord will get into promote that game, and that would be a LOT of FE characters if Marth, Ike, Robin, Lucina, and Corrin all stayed too. Corrin I can see staying because she's a bit more unique in the fact that she has her dragon thing as well as a sword, but not Lucina.

And imo, Ike, Marth, and Robin are the only ones I feel are 100% staying.

I don't know if I agree with this statement. Masahiro Sakurai is confirmed to be directing this Smash Bros. again, and while he does value uniqueness, especially in Smash for 3DS/Wii U, he also tends to work directly with Intelligent Systems a lot when it comes to the selection of Fire Emblem characters. Knowing that they pushed Koei Tecmo to include Lucina in Warriors when they weren't going to, for example, says to me that they think highly of Lucina. They know she, Ike and Lyn killed the Choose Your Legends survey before Heroes released as well. I expect Marth, Ike and Lucina are all pretty safe bets for Smash Switch.

Edited March 9, 2018 by dmurr

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, dmurr said:

I don't know if I agree with this statement. Masahiro Sakurai is confirmed to be directing this Smash Bros. again, and while he does value uniqueness, especially in Smash for 3DS/Wii U, he also tends to work directly with Intelligent Systems a lot when it comes to the selection of Fire Emblem characters. Knowing that they pushed Koei Tecmo to include Lucina in Warriors when they weren't going to, for example, says to me that they think highly of Lucina. They know she, Ike and Lyn killed the Choose Your Legends survey before Heroes released as well. I expect Marth, Ike and Lucina are all pretty safe bets for Smash Switch.

Nothing said he was directing it. Only that he's involved in it. He may just be a consultant. And Lucina at least shouldn't be so cloney then. They should find something she can bring that hardly anyone else in the roster has. But that's tough because she's another generic sword character. So that's why I feel the way I feel.

[Truthblade]

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well, in any case, I still feel both would be better off as alt models/costumes. And as I said, this is coming from a Dark Pit fan. He's my favorite Kid Icarus character. But for the sake of variety, I feel he should be an alt costume for Pit and Viridi ought to be a newcomer if there are any.

To quote Sakurai:

"whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot."

The problem is that there were very specific reasons why the clone characters got their own slots rather than as alts. Dr Mario because Melee fans would feel cheated if he were demoted, Lucina because of her different attributes such as smaller size (hence the above quote) and Dark Pit because of the possible oddity of him using the TST as his Final Smash. Along with the fact that they take little time to develop (Dark Pit even less so) there is little to justify demotion, let alone a roster cut.

[Dai]

If Dark Pit returns, he should, at the VERY LEAST, get different weapons. Uprising has, what? A few dozen or so? Sharing the same abilities barring some minor aesthetics is kind of...lame.

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, Truthblade said:

To quote Sakurai:

"whenever there is even a small difference in abilities, that character gets an actual roster slot."

The problem is that there were very specific reasons why the clone characters got their own slots rather than as alts. Dr Mario because Melee fans would feel cheated if he were demoted, Lucina because of her different attributes such as smaller size (hence the above quote) and Dark Pit because of the possible oddity of him using the TST as his Final Smash. Along with the fact that they take little time to develop (Dark Pit even less so) there is little to justify demotion, let alone a roster cut.

Well then, I guess that's one piece of Sakurai logic that I won't ever agree with. Which is weird, because I tend to agree with him a lot. I just feel if there's only a small difference between two characters, then they might as well just be exactly the same and therefore alts of one another.

Edited March 9, 2018 by Anacybele

[Truthblade]

1 minute ago, Dai said:

If Dark Pit returns, he should, at the VERY LEAST, get different weapons. Uprising has, what? A few dozen or so? Sharing the same abilities barring some minor aesthetics is kind of...lame.

Well, he is a literal clone so its not like it doesn't make sense. I do see where you're coming from however.

[dmurr]

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

Nothing said he was directing it. Only that he's involved in it. He may just be a consultant. And Lucina at least shouldn't be so cloney then. They should find something she can bring that hardly anyone else in the roster has. But that's tough because she's another generic sword character. So that's why I feel the way I feel.

Ohh you're right. I missed that. Consulting, directing or whatever, I do feel like likely had significant impact over the roster decision.

It's tough to make too much speculation about this roster because there's no way it'll expand the same way that all the previous ones have. They'll likely not exceed 60-70 characters, so I expect lots of cuts, and Fire Emblem having 6 characters makes it one of the easiest targets. Because of that, this may finally be the Smash game where they base the FE selections based on pure popularity instead of recency.

[Truthblade]

2 minutes ago, dmurr said:

Ohh you're right. I missed that. Consulting, directing or whatever, I do feel like likely had significant impact over the roster decision.

It's tough to make too much speculation about this roster because there's no way it'll expand the same way that all the previous ones have. They'll likely not exceed 60-70 characters, so I expect lots of cuts, and Fire Emblem having 6 characters makes it one of the easiest targets. Because of that, this may finally be the Smash game where they base the FE selections based on pure popularity instead of recency.

That is something I have been worrying about lately. Unless they are willing to go really crazy, they will probably try to bring the roster down to a smaller size.

[NoirCore]

49 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Well then, I guess that's one piece of Sakurai logic that I won't ever agree with. Which is weird, because I tend to agree with him a lot. I just feel if there's only a small difference between two characters, then they might as well just be exactly the same and therefore alts of one another.

I imagine they could improve character customization to add options for slightly tweaking the mechanics of movesets beyond just special moves and Lucina could exist as an alt for Marth there too. That being said, Lucina taking up a "slot" means nothing; she's already been developed for a modern Smash game. It's not like her existence is going to prevent a character from getting in (though "too many FE" arguments could arise again), so I wouldn't say cutting her is the most ideal (well, except for your personal interests).

[Water Mage]

57 minutes ago, Truthblade said:

That is something I have been worrying about lately. Unless they are willing to go really crazy, they will probably try to bring the roster down to a smaller size.

I think the opposite. Crossovers like this thrives in a large rooster. I can see them going for 100 characters in future Smashes.

[LucinaRobin]

9 hours ago, Truthblade said:

Well, he is a literal clone so its not like it doesn't make sense. I do see where you're coming from however.

Is there anyway to confirm about lucina?

For example, asking to sakurai.

10 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Nothing said he was directing it. Only that he's involved in it. He may just be a consultant. And Lucina at least shouldn't be so cloney then. They should find something she can bring that hardly anyone else in the roster has. But that's tough because she's another generic sword character. So that's why I feel the way I feel.

Yes. New lucina with lance "brave lucina" can be added.

But even if it will not happen, large roster is their power.

They don't have to remove lucina i think.

Edited March 10, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Truthblade]

21 minutes ago, LucinaRobin said:

Is there anyway to confirm about lucina?

For example, asking to sakurai.

.

not exactly sure what your asking

[LucinaRobin]

5 minutes ago, Truthblade said:

26 minutes ago, LucinaRobin said:

Is there anyway to confirm about lucina?

For example, asking to sakurai.

.

not exactly sure what your asking

I want to make a contact to sakurai.

Or anyway to confirm about lucina.

[peener weener]

16 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

Then, who will replace her moveset?

I know, her moveset is similar to marth. But it's completely different when i use them. 

she has the exact same moveset. her sword just has slightly different properties. marth hits harder at the tip, and lucina doesn't have that mechanic. they are otherwise identical characters.

[NoirCore]

2 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

I want to make a contact to sakurai.

Or anyway to confirm about lucina.

Er, good luck talking to someone who seems to only know Japanese, let alone a very popular person who likely gets so many messages from fans that he likely will ignore them. Besides, he wouldn't tell you even if you asked; that information is secret until it is revealed or the game comes out and there's no trace of it. Nintendo isn't going to tell one thing unknown to everyone but themselves to a random fan.

As for Lucina, no chance they're going to use her Brave variant from Heroes. It HAS to be her regular appearance.

[LucinaRobin]

23 minutes ago, NoirCore said:

3 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

I want to make a contact to sakurai.

Or anyway to confirm about lucina.

Er, good luck talking to someone who seems to only know Japanese, let alone a very popular person who likely gets so many messages from fans that he likely will ignore them. Besides, he wouldn't tell you even if you asked; that information is secret until it is revealed or the game comes out and there's no trace of it. Nintendo isn't going to tell one thing unknown to everyone but themselves to a random fan.

As for Lucina, no chance they're going to use her Brave variant from Heroes. It HAS to be her regular appearance.

It's really hard for me to wait.....

Robin and lucina are my favorite character....

28 minutes ago, fartboi said:

she has the exact same moveset. her sword just has slightly different properties. marth hits harder at the tip, and lucina doesn't have that mechanic. they are otherwise identical characters.

Same moveset doesn't mean same gameplay.......

If you try, you will feel that. It's completely different character.

12 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Well, in any case, I still feel both would be better off as alt models/costumes. And as I said, this is coming from a Dark Pit fan. He's my favorite Kid Icarus character. But for the sake of variety, I feel he should be an alt costume for Pit and Viridi ought to be a newcomer if there are any.

Still lucina and marth lack their alt costume.

If they combine, each character will have only 4 costumes.

Edited March 10, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Reality]

On the one hand, I think that "clone" charathers do have a place in fighting games overall, with Street Fighter and Soul Calibur probbably demonstrating how very small differences between chatethers can have major effects on the "feel" of the charather

On the other hand, I'm not really sold on most of the smash bros clones. I think that there is too often a clear cut winner (whether melee or smash 4). In the case of mario/ dr. mario, the clone was even better than the original in one smash game, and then the inferior the next time they both re-appeared  

In the case of Lucina vs, Marth, I tend to see non-tipper gameplay as a downside because 1: fighting people at your maximum range also keeps yourself safer for spacing reasons. 2: a charather with tipper and non-tipper attacks can take advantage of the reduced knockback of his sour-spotted attacks to combo longer in some situations. I know that Lucina mains have won and placed in many differnt regional events and there are a lot of resources out there on smashboards and other places, but I've always seen her as a bit weaker.  In any case, I think that Lucina as a Marth clone would be more interesting with multiple tweaks, akin to Ken or Sakura as a Ryu clone in street fighter. 

For other charathers (such as dark pit and lucas) I can argue that clone and non clone play fairly diffent from each other even when their main difference is specials rather than normal attacks/aerials. But for these charathers, (again using a street fighter example) I feel like they play less like (street-fighter style) clones, and more like the difference between picking the I  and the II ultra combo on the same charather. 

[LucinaRobin]

10 minutes ago, Reality said:

On the one hand, I think that "clone" charathers do have a place in fighting games overall, with Street Fighter and Soul Calibur probbably demonstrating how very small differences between chatethers can have major effects on the "feel" of the charather

On the other hand, I'm not really sold on most of the smash bros clones. I think that there is too often a clear cut winner (whether melee or smash 4). In the case of mario/ dr. mario, the clone was even better than the original in one smash game, and then the inferior the next time they both re-appeared  

In the case of Lucina vs, Marth, I tend to see non-tipper gameplay as a downside because 1: fighting people at your maximum range also keeps yourself safer for spacing reasons. 2: a charather with tipper and non-tipper attacks can take advantage of the reduced knockback of his sour-spotted attacks to combo longer in some situations. I know that Lucina mains have won and placed in many differnt regional events and there are a lot of resources out there on smashboards and other places, but I've always seen her as a bit weaker.  In any case, I think that Lucina as a Marth clone would be more interesting with multiple tweaks, akin to Ken or Sakura as a Ryu clone in street fighter. 

For other charathers (such as dark pit and lucas) I can argue that clone and non clone play fairly diffent from each other even when their main difference is specials rather than normal attacks/aerials. But for these charathers, (again using a street fighter example) I feel like they play less like (street-fighter style) clones, and more like the difference between picking the I  and the II ultra combo on the same charather. 

I can understand. But Marth's sour spot can be perfect "destroy" to player. when damage is high.

Even though lucina is super clone to marth, player have to use them in 100% different ways.

We can accept semi-clone because it's different. But in reality what we aim is different play style to obtain fun.

So I think lucina and marth can exist together in different slot.

 

[Lau]

Lets do a rundown on what I will think will happen with the FE reps...

Marth is the mainstay FE rep, being in since Melee, and was supposed to be in the original, so cutting him is essentially a crime. Ike was so freaking popular in Brawl, and he plays very differently from Marth and any other sword fighter, plus he returned for Smash 4, so it's safe to say he is now a mainstay. I strongly believe that Robin will stay in. He's unique with his tomes, and represents the weapon breaking mechanic. Corrin is a tricky one due to how unique his moveset is, but also because he was only added to promote Fates. I can see him staying, but there is a slight chance that he could be cut.

Honestly, the two on the chopping block are Roy and Lucina. Roy was a clone of Marth, but come Smash 4, he received the Luigi treatment, so I'll be surprised and very upset if he got cut. Sakurai, you left him out of Brawl and Smash 4 until DLC, it'd be redundant to leave him out again. Plus, he was brought back due to popular demand, soooo.... As for Lucina...there really isn't any reason for her to stay other than to beef up the roster. She's just essentially a watered down Marth. She doesn't represent a FE mechanic like Robin, and she's not unique unlike the others sans Roy. I think she should be relegated to a Marth alt.

Though, if she is made a Marth alt, could it be possible for her to still have the balanced Falchion? The work is all there, it'd just be the case of merging her into Marth's slot, right? Or am I downplaying how difficult game programming is?

The way I see it though, we still don't know if this is a new Smash or just a port. I wouldn't worry too much about the roster just yet, wait until we get more information. And remember folks, don't believe anything that doesn't come directly from Sakurai or Nintendo. Don't remind me of the ESRB leak, oh, those were the days

Edited March 10, 2018 by Lau
words escape me unfortunately

[LucinaRobin]

9 minutes ago, Lau said:

As for Lucina...there really isn't any reason for her to stay other than to beef up the roster. She's just essentially a watered down Marth. She doesn't represent a FE mechanic like Robin

So, if lucina is watered down mode of marth how can lucina beat marth?

And why did they put lucina in different slot in ssb4?

This game mainly has large roster. If only one thing is different then, it can have its own slot like ssb4.

I think...

Edited March 10, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Lau]

2 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

So, if lucina is watered down mode of marth how can lucina beat marth?

And why did they put lucina in different slot in ssb4?

This game mainly has large roster. If only one thing is different then, it can have its own slot like ssb4.

I think...

Any character can beat any character in the hands of a skilled player.

By watered down Marth, I meant the way she's designed - she doesn't have the tipper mechanic, making her easier to use as you don't have to worry about spacing.

Sakurai said when Lucina was revealed that they separated Lucina and Marth because a) Marth is taller than Lucina, so hitboxes are different, and b) because they had some time left over and decided to beef up the roster, so they made her sword have different properties. B is also the reason why Dr Mario and Dark Pit are separate characters, as we can see from how they are separated from the other members of their franchise on the character select screen.

Honestly, if it's a port, don't worry about anyone being cut. If it's a new game, things will play out. We just have to wait and see.

[LucinaRobin]

44 minutes ago, Lau said:

Any character can beat any character in the hands of a skilled player.

By watered down Marth, I meant the way she's designed - she doesn't have the tipper mechanic, making her easier to use as you don't have to worry about spacing.

Sakurai said when Lucina was revealed that they separated Lucina and Marth because a) Marth is taller than Lucina, so hitboxes are different, and b) because they had some time left over and decided to beef up the roster, so they made her sword have different properties. B is also the reason why Dr Mario and Dark Pit are separate characters, as we can see from how they are separated from the other members of their franchise on the character select screen.

Honestly, if it's a port, don't worry about anyone being cut. If it's a new game, things will play out. We just have to wait and see.

Yeah. Reason A are the things i am talking about.

They are different character....

I wish it comes out as a port like mk8 deluxe...

And they don't have to remove even if it's not port....

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by LucinaRobin

[Water Mage]

7 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

So, if lucina is watered down mode of marth how can lucina beat marth?

And why did they put lucina in different slot in ssb4?

This game mainly has large roster. If only one thing is different then, it can have its own slot like ssb4.

I think...

Another important to thing to notice, is that Lucina was made to be a beginner’s Marth. Sakurai said that Lucina was made to make Marth’s moveset easier for beginners as she doesn’t rely on the tipper. Once you get to the moveset, you could use Marth more easily, since he was always character with a high skill gate.

[LucinaRobin]

2 hours ago, Water Mage said:

10 hours ago, LucinaRobin said:

So, if lucina is watered down mode of marth how can lucina beat marth?

And why did they put lucina in different slot in ssb4?

This game mainly has large roster. If only one thing is different then, it can have its own slot like ssb4.

I think...

Another important to thing to notice, is that Lucina was made to be a beginner’s Marth. Sakurai said that Lucina was made to make Marth’s moveset easier for beginners as she doesn’t rely on the tipper. Once you get to the moveset, you could use Marth more easily, since he was always character with a high skill gate.

Maybe you're right.. But i don't think exactly the same. You're telling lucina is "easy mode" of marth.

If I use example, you're telling lucina is sky blue while marth is blue. (lets think darker one need more skill than lighter one)

But in reality, lucina is skyblue while marth is red. lucina need lesser skill than marth but the color tone is 100% different.

Which means their play style is 100% different.

Marth is defensive character while lucina is offensive.

 

Edited March 10, 2018 by LucinaRobin