Former Guest vs. Swordsalmon

[Former Guest]

Mass opinion holds Treck to be a pain in the ass to recruit. I don't. With some pretty rudimentary strategy your two cavaliers, Marcus and Roy can bust their humps over there in three turns to talk to Zealot so he can yoink Treck from the AI's control and stop his suicidal nonsense. All this said, Lot had the wits to bypass a joining situation like this entirely. Haha Treck!

As fairly as possible, let's compare:

A. their support partners

B. their promotion situations

C. their in-game performances

A.

Lot

Dieck: Pretty raep and the support is a decent speed. If Clarine or Rutger don't happen to get in enough turns pressed against Dieck for some reason (yes, their services could be needed elsewhere by the enemy phase), Lot may very well get Dieck or at least C Dieck, as Clarine and Rutger are sex-starved for A.

Echidna: She offers full defensive benefits, and she's really good. She requires no promotion item, so you're better off fielding her than levelling up some unpromoted unit in her stead that's most likely inferior at fighting or staying alive and stays that way for the entire game. Lalum is only getting benefitted behind the front lines where enemies shouldn't even be reaching her. We don't want them reaching her. What's the harm in an A here?

Lance: Alan is basically a given for his A support, but Lord Roy sucks and cramps his style a lot by having far less movement and staying 20/0 until four chapters are left - the fact he's forced on you is beside the point, he has bad offense. We want him MIA even more than Lalum when he caps, and we're using Lot here, so I'm thinking dual Anima B plz, even if it is slow, it'll beat the Fire that's getting squandered.

Thany: Ehhhhhhh..........in order for her to score kill EXP so something can eventually happen with her stats, you need to get enemies down to a sliver of their life for a long time. Or real real close to it if she's being weighed down by just an iron lance. Early on, the field is rife with WTD for her. Inconvenient much? She's pretty mediocre, but we're going to Ilia (Sacae can get fucked) so this support isn't out of the question.

Ward: Even though he's Lot's fastest support, his ghastly AS is enough to make him blow. Deployment past ch. 5 means building up long-term suck and instances of getting double attacked I want to avoid.

Don't forget at least four of these supports would be getting ignited before any of Treck's. Lot is reaping his support bonuses earlier.

Treck

Gonzales: OMGWTF. He evolves from a good class to an amazing class. He starts out with a whopping 15 constitution and some of the best durability among your unpromoteds that are almost never one-rounding, so hits not connecting occasionally is a miniscule price to pay. Before one-rounding becomes frequently doable, offense takes a backseat to staying alive and you know it. And getting supported only makes his minor at best accuracy problem dissipate further.......

Juno: Massive suck prepromote bases. Not sure why you'd vouch for her as even a last resort.

Miledy: Fears bows and Aircalibur, but lots of durability otherwise, and has a very good class which is also mounted. Definitely not to be ruled out.

Noah: Probably Treck's surefire A. Well matched since they're both mounted.

Zealot: His class is peerless, not much else about him is. He can fit into your deployments a little while after he joins if you so desire as a guardian figure, but plenty of units average better than him in many areas and start trashing his offense once they level up more and more later on, so........are the odds of this support lasting all campaign particularly high? Zealot's not too likely going to be handed the perfect chapter attendance award, so I think not.

Looks like there's at least two top tierish people among each of their supporters. And Echidna may be top tier as far as I'm concerned, you can't really say the same for Noah. Unfortunately, the two worst units on Treck's list (Zealot+Juno) are worse combined than Lot's (Thany+Ward), so in the emergency event said top tiers have no room for our characters, Lot (and in turn, my squad) is still better off in finding a secondary partner.

Lot's affinity is obviously superior to Treck's. Anima grants concrete power and all three defensive parameters. Wind subs accuracy and critical for defense and avoid, an inferior tradeoff in general.

Since Treck's defense and avoid are hardly slack, but his skill rating never breaks 20 - given HM enemy stats and axe/lance hits suffering accuracy nerfage, Treck admittedly welcomes Wind, but none of this makes the sheer advantages of Lot's Anima go away.

Lot isn't insanely weak or anything and mains the weapon type with the most might, but he's not known to excel in strength - his supports make that carping even more futile.

Luck has never been one of the more vital FE stats, but Lot's critical avoid isn't his strongest suit (indeed, it's his weakest) - yet his supports do plenty to remedy that.

B.

Alan and Lance may well snag the first two knight crests before Treck (or Noah).

Dieck and Rutger are almost certainly promoting before Lot. Then there's Gonzales, Fir, Geese, Oujay who want crests.

Treck's prospects are shining brighter than Lot's for promotion, you think? Nah. They're equal if anything. Who are the cavaliers competing with for promotion items? The gallant knights? That latter trio is made of stupefying fail. While cavaliers -> paladins are top of top tier as far as class, the group that promotes via hero crest is all around the most solid in the entire game (minus Ward), not the knight crest or any other group, so adding more of those members to my team than any others can only mean prosperous returns. Berserkers and swordmasters for instance develop amazing critical rates so they're not often taking counters and this greatly lowers my need for healing as I play, which is awesome. Lot is overshadowed by others among his group? I suppose. Who cares? Don't forget Treck's in the same boat, esp. since he was underlevelled to begin with. You acquire more than enough in the way of funds plus the silver card to make acing the corresponding rank of no concern AND buy a lot of promotion items from the first secret shop, and above all else I want me some hero crests.

C.

All our units are meant to do is rout, but how does each fare?

Lot will have a level lead on Treck and has been helping out the team more. He's been a decently durable fellow for quite some time among your growing roster who can be thrown against knights, soldiers etc. whereas Treck is anything but on ch. 7. When it comes to taking care of all the cavaliers on ch. 4, for example, he's your halberd dude. Massive suck Ward is likely to be one-rounded if he misses, and let's be realistic, Marcus isn't going to have the rank required to wield it. The halberd's inaccurate, but better than nothing since Lot can actually OHKO stuff with it, and the cavaliers must be eliminated ASAP, so I'll take my middling chances.

Treck has WTA plus a superior mounted class on paper to combat all the axemen on the Western Isles and Lot doesn't, but Treck lacks 1-2 range that's not impractical. "What about the Light Brand?" No such luck. Treck has a piddling E rank in swords when he's recruited and doesn't usually want to stoop to iron swords for his first two chapters, it's in no way helping his offense. When it becomes C, it's not going to be for a while, certainly not once you start sludging through the Western Isles. The Light Brand is a rarity with weak fixed damage, besides. On the other hand, Lot can whip out a hand axe to avoid counters from those axemen on player phase, which is nice if an enemy is being weakened by our characters and not finished off. The drawback of course for Lot there would be the drop in accuracy, but drawbacks like to accompany handy features in FE for balance issues, and the hand axe vs. a fighter/pirate/brigand doesn't amount anywhere close to the drawback of hurling a javelin.

Treck's resistance is not only lower than Lot's, he's going to get less from his supports. Avoid can backfire, especially when you don't have WTA against any magic, and Treck only gets less of that supported too.

I shall expand on this section more in my next post.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Former Guest

[Swordsalmon]

Mass opinion holds Treck to be a pain in the ass to recruit. I don't. With some pretty rudimentary strategy your two cavaliers, Marcus and Roy can bust their humps over there in three turns to talk to Zealot so he can yoink Treck from the AI's control and stop his suicidal nonsense. All this said, Lot had the wits to bypass a joining situation like this entirely. Haha Treck!

Blame Zealot for being an awful commander, not Treck. ;)

Lot

Dieck: Pretty raep and the support is a decent speed. If Clarine or Rutger don't happen to get in enough turns pressed against Dieck for some reason (yes, their services could be needed elsewhere by the enemy phase), Lot may very well get Dieck or at least C Dieck, as Clarine and Rutger are sex-starved for A.

Echidna: She offers full defensive benefits, and she's really good. She requires no promotion item, so you're better off fielding her than levelling up some unpromoted unit in her stead that's most likely inferior at fighting or staying alive and stays that way for the entire game. Lalum is only getting benefitted behind the front lines where enemies shouldn't even be reaching her. We don't want them reaching her. What's the harm in an A here?

Lance: Alan is basically a given for his A support, but Lord Roy sucks and cramps his style a lot by having far less movement and staying 20/0 until four chapters are left - the fact he's forced on you is beside the point, he has bad offense. We want him MIA even more than Lalum when he caps, and we're using Lot here, so I'm thinking dual Anima B plz, even if it is slow, it'll beat the Fire that's getting squandered.

Thany: Ehhhhhhh..........in order for her to score kill EXP so something can eventually happen with her stats, you need to get enemies down to a sliver of their life for a long time. Or real real close to it if she's being weighed down by just an iron lance. Early on, the field is rife with WTD for her. Inconvenient much? She's pretty mediocre, but we're going to Ilia (Sacae can get fucked) so this support isn't out of the question.

Ward: Even though he's Lot's fastest support, his ghastly AS is enough to make him blow. Deployment past ch. 5 means building up long-term suck and instances of getting double attacked I want to avoid.

Don't forget at least four of these supports would be getting ignited before any of Treck's. Lot is reaping his support bonuses earlier.

Dieck A is basically undisputable, I have to give that. Fastest support and best bonuses for Dieck. Now, onto the other supports.

Echidna could make a B support, but she does have several other options. Obviously Lalum A for having similar Movement and giving full Defense/Avoid, which both characters need. Echidna also benefits from this support as by A, the two can just be within three spaces and still get the bonuses. Lot A is too slow for Echidna to use. For a B support, Lot would be viable...but Echidna has both Geese and Gonzales vying for that support. All three are the same speed, but Gonzales needs the Hit Echidna gives him. Though that makes Echidna slightly weaker, she's making Gonzales considerably better than if he didn't get the support.

Lance would prefer Roy over Lot. RoyxLance B takes only 40 turns, while it's 120 for LotxLance. Getting bonuses much earlier is the best option. And since Roy is always running to the Gate/Throne, he and Lance can be in support range at most times. Finally, the extra 10% Avoid, 2 Attack, and 1 Defense benefits Roy offensively, so he doesn't suck for the first eight chapters and is then two-rounding in the Western Isles.

Even Thany, if used, has other options. Dieck B is an option for Thany, and she can wait for Tate A. And especially in the early chapters, Thany is necessary to visit villages and other flier utility, so building up a Lot support would be too much work. Besides, she's pathetically frail as-is (lol base 17 HP), so it's best just to drop her immediately and build enough experience with Tate to get Ilia route.

Ward sucks, but he sucks less early-game with Lot B, mainly for the 10% Avoid. Lot's B support will be Ward B.

Treck

Gonzales: OMGWTF. He evolves from a good class to an amazing class. He starts out with a whopping 15 constitution and some of the best durability among your unpromoteds that are almost never one-rounding, so hits not connecting occasionally is a miniscule price to pay. Before one-rounding becomes frequently doable, offense takes a backseat to staying alive and you know it. And getting supported only makes his minor at best accuracy problem dissipate further.......

Juno: Massive suck prepromote bases. Not sure why you'd vouch for her as even a last resort.

Miledy: Fears bows and Aircalibur, but lots of durability otherwise, and has a very good class which is also mounted. Definitely not to be ruled out.

Noah: Probably Treck's surefire A. Well matched since they're both mounted.

Zealot: His class is peerless, not much else about him is. He can fit into your deployments a little while after he joins if you so desire as a guardian figure, but plenty of units average better than him in many areas and start trashing his offense once they level up more and more later on, so........are the odds of this support lasting all campaign particularly high? Zealot's not too likely going to be handed the perfect chapter attendance award, so I think not.

Looks like there's at least two top tierish people among each of their supporters. And Echidna may be top tier as far as I'm concerned, you can't really say the same for Noah. Unfortunately, the two worst units on Treck's list (Zealot+Juno) are worse combined than Lot's (Thany+Ward), so in the emergency event said top tiers have no room for our characters, Lot (and in turn, my squad) is still better off in finding a secondary partner.

Lot's affinity is obviously superior to Treck's. Anima grants concrete power and all three defensive parameters. Wind subs accuracy and critical for defense and avoid, an inferior tradeoff in general.

Since Treck's defense and avoid are hardly slack, but his skill rating never breaks 20 - given HM enemy stats and axe/lance hits suffering accuracy nerfage, Treck admittedly welcomes Wind, but none of this makes the sheer advantages of Lot's Anima go away.

Lot isn't insanely weak or anything and mains the weapon type with the most might, but he's not known to excel in strength - his supports make that carping even more futile.

Luck has never been one of the more vital FE stats, but Lot's critical avoid isn't his strongest suit (indeed, it's his weakest) - yet his supports do plenty to remedy that.

Gonzales and Miledy both want Treck A. With Treck A, Echidna B, Gonzales' hitting problems are almost completely null with the 25% Hit given. He gets the best offense in the game by far with that support match-up. Miledy is desperate for any supports, as seen by her awful list.

Zeiss- Sucks.

Ellen- Dissapears after Clarine and Saul joins, and if still used, would prefer Lugh and Chad for supports. Both provide some Avoid, which Ellen needs just to survive.

Lugh- Has Chad, Rei, and Ellen. Chad A is very early, and Ellen B takes 90 turns. By the time Miledy joins, Lugh will be fully supported.

Yodel- He joins far too late to support anything other than Niime and maybe Dayan.

Treck is her only option for an A support. So Treck is basically guaranteed an A with someone. He can then B support with Noah, as it's fast and gives a nice Attack bonus. Fir would like Noah A anyways, but a B is still viable.

Of course Lot's affinity is clearly better, but Treck's problems in hitting are reduced from Gonzales/Miledy A, Noah B.

Alan and Lance may well snag the first two knight crests before Treck (or Noah).

Dieck and Rutger are almost certainly promoting before Lot. Then there's Gonzales, Fir, Geese, Oujay who want crests.

Treck's prospects are shining brighter than Lot's for promotion, you think? Nah. They're equal if anything. Who are the cavaliers competing with for promotion items? The gallant knights? That latter trio is made of stupefying fail. While cavaliers -> paladins are top of top tier as far as class, the group that promotes via hero crest is all around the most solid in the entire game (minus Ward), not the knight crest or any other group, so adding more of those members to my team than any others can only mean prosperous returns. Berserkers and swordmasters for instance develop amazing critical rates so they're not often taking counters and this greatly lowers my need for healing as I play, which is awesome. Lot is overshadowed by others among his group? I suppose. Who cares? Don't forget Treck's in the same boat, esp. since he was underlevelled to begin with. You acquire more than enough in the way of funds plus the silver card to make acing the corresponding rank of no concern AND buy a lot of promotion items from the first secret shop, and above all else I want me some hero crests.

Both promote at the same time; Chapter 16. Lance and Alan get the two Knight Crests, and Dieck and Rutger get the two Hero Crests. That gives Treck plenty of time to catch up.

Which brings my next point. Treck joins at level four in Chapter 7. That's actually a benefit. Treck is boosting more Experience than any other character while still fighting effectively (Chapter 8 has tons of Loldiers, and 8x-12 are weighed-down Fighters). A large benefit for the team after Marcus hurting the rank by necessity to be fielded.

All our units are meant to do is rout, but how does each fare?

Lot will have a level lead on Treck and has been helping out the team more. He's been a decently durable fellow for quite some time among your growing roster who can be thrown against knights, soldiers etc. whereas Treck is anything but on ch. 7. When it comes to taking care of all the cavaliers on ch. 4, for example, he's your halberd dude. Massive suck Ward is likely to be one-rounded if he misses, and let's be realistic, Marcus isn't going to have the rank required to wield it. The halberd's inaccurate, but better than nothing since Lot can actually OHKO stuff with it, and the cavaliers must be eliminated ASAP, so I'll take my middling chances.

Treck has WTA plus a superior mounted class on paper to combat all the axemen on the Western Isles and Lot doesn't, but Treck lacks 1-2 range that's not impractical. "What about the Light Brand?" No such luck. Treck has a piddling E rank in swords when he's recruited and doesn't usually want to stoop to iron swords for his first two chapters, it's in no way helping his offense. When it becomes C, it's not going to be for a while, certainly not once you start sludging through the Western Isles. The Light Brand is a rarity with weak fixed damage, besides. On the other hand, Lot can whip out a hand axe to avoid counters from those axemen on player phase, which is nice if an enemy is being weakened by our characters and not finished off. The drawback of course for Lot there would be the drop in accuracy, but drawbacks like to accompany handy features in FE for balance issues, and the hand axe vs. a fighter/pirate/brigand doesn't amount anywhere close to the drawback of hurling a javelin.

Treck's resistance is not only lower than Lot's, he's going to get less from his supports. Avoid can backfire, especially when you don't have WTA against any magic, and Treck only gets less of that supported too.

Indeed Lot is fairly useful at join. However, the Halberd in Chapter 4 is terrible for Lot. Besides his terrible Hit with it, level 6 Lot has 2 AS. He'll be doubled by the Cavaliers he's trying to attack, with their 6+ AS.

Treck's lack of indirect attacks on the Isles is less of a problem. The most common enemies are Steel Axe Fighters. Treck can build up a Sword weapon level while still defeating the Fighters easily (Like everyone else. XD). Lot's use of a Hand Axe is very inaccurate and will more likely than not damage Combat. At Chapter 9, level 10 Lot w/ Hand Axe and Dieck A has 68% Hit. With an Iron Axe, it's 83%. Level 7 Treck w/ Iron Sword and Noah C, on the other hand, has 104% Hit, and WTA. Any Archers can still be countered with a Javelin, where Treck has 89% Hit. Treck is having fewer problems in the Western Isles.

Indeed. Treck's weapon command and 8 Movement more than make up for it after promotion, however.

Oh, and here's a promotion comparison of both characters at Chapter 16. All stat decimals are rounded to the nearest number.

Lot, level 20/1 w/ Steel Axe

HP: 51

Atk: 27

Hit: 88%

Crt: 14%

AS: 15

Def: 17

Res: 7

Avoid: 48%

Dodge: 22%

Dieck A

Treck, level 20/1 w/ Steel Sword/Lance/Axe

HP: 42

Atk: 27/29/30

Hit: 117/92/87%

Crt: 16%

AS: 15/13/11

Def: 17

Res: 6

Avoid: 46/42/40%

Dodge: 33%

Gonzales B, Noah B

So other than Lot's large HP lead, their stats are nearly the same. However, Treck can WTA everything but magic and Bows and has a Movement lead. Treck can fight more often and is overall benefitting more characters, and thus the team, more than Lot does.

Sorry for the rather short post. Good luck! :)