Tino vs. 安室 奈美

[Tino]

oh snap :o

hot stuff right there

HHM, three posts each, I open.

for rlz

[Tino]

We be ballin' dood.

Good luck ^_^

I'll start off with supports.

They are, ironically, their best A support partners >_<

Dorcas can get A Oswin/B Geitz for 4 Atk, 25 Avo, 2 Def and 17 Crit.

Oswin gets A Dorcas for 3 Atk, 15 Avo, 1 Def and 7 Crit.

But then there's also the following possible scenario.

Dorcas gets A Bartre/B Oswin for 3 Atk, 25 Avo, 2 Def and 20 Crit

Oswin gets B Dorcas for 2 Atk, 10 Avo, 1 Def and 5 Crit.

Or the following.

Dorcas gets A Bartre/B Geitz for 2 Atk, 25 Avo, 2 Def and 25 Crit.

Oswin gets nothing.

Dorcas has far superior supports, and the second one is the best support combination.

Okay, I lied. Apparently, they aren't their best A support partners.

I mainly expect some kind of attack on Bartre being an incredibly fragile earlygame unit. True. However, his Dorcas support is uber fast, and this gives him pretty sweet boosts in the form of 1 Def and 10 Avo very quickly. Not to mention that he can also throw Hand Axes from behind Dorcas if he wants, so that they can still build their support while Bartre doesn't.

The fact that you have to use four Hero Crests is also bull, when you use Bartre. Why? Because no unit is guaranteed to be used. This also applies to Raven and Guy, who are the other units who will be using Hero Crests. Not to mention that Dorcas is most likely hitting lv 20 first anyway, giving him the first. Then it's a contest between Guy and Bartre for the second and third, while Raven gets the last, if all four of them are being used. And even if Bartre would promote last, then he can also use an Earth Seal.

And yes, I realize that Bartre gets doubled by some enemies early on, but note that these are only sword users and lv 3 Brigands, of which there are a grand total of two in Birds of a Feather (1 Merc, 1 lv 3 Brigand). And even then, he only gets doubled in the first few chapters, if even at all. He'll only get doubled by Mercs and Myrms after that. Eventually, he won't even get doubled by those. I'd say, let's see how utterly fail Bartre truly is.

In ch.16, he'll be lv 10 with B Dorcas.

10 Iron Axe Bartre, B Dorcas

22 Atk, 6 AS, 101 Hit, 14 Crt -- 36 HP, 28 Avo, 7 Def, 3 Res

10 Iron Lance Sain

20 Atk, 10 AS, 93 Hit, 3 Crt -- 26 HP, 27 Avo, 8 Def, 2 Res

Bartre is pretty easily comparable to a high/god tier unit. That's pretty awesome. I'm not saying Bartre is statistically superior than Sain, but he is definitely comparable to him.

Lucius is also generally referred to as a high/higher mid tier unit.

12 Iron Axe Bartre, A Dorcas

23 Atk, 7 AS, 103 Hit, 19 Crt -- 38 HP, 36 Avo, 8 Def, 4 Res

7 Lightning Lucius

13 Atk, 12 AS, 112 Hit, 9 Crt -- 20 HP, 27 Avo, 1 Def, 8 Res

Aight. Bartre has double Crt, almost doubles Lucius' Atk and HP and has a whopping 7 more Def as well, as well as some Avo. What does Lucius have? lolHit and some AS and some Res. Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Lucius can actually double, but does this make him superior?

Let's say we have some Cavalier dood. He has 8 Def and 1 Res. Lucius doubles, Bartre does not. Bartre can thus switch to a Steel Axe for 3 more Atk, while he doesn't get doubled. Bartre deals a sweet 19 damage and thus two-rounds, while Lucius deals 24 damage and thus two-rounds. But then, the gap between enemy Def/Res only needs to be 2-3 points less to make them pretty much equal if lucius doubles when Bartre does not. If both double, Bartre obviously wins. If neither double, Bartre also obviously wins.

So Bartre is indeed not as bad as you might think, and therefore has perfectly valid reasons to grab that A support with Dorcas.

Anyway, Dorcas has Lyn Mode to kill things in. He'll be gaining some good levels there, since you'll only be using a few units. Using most/all LM units is bad, since it will reduce efficieny in Hector Mode, due to having overall worse units. Dorcas will be able to get to level 10, if not 11 once he rejoins.

And since I expect some arguments against this, let me elaborate on this whole thing.

"there iz no hai lv enemie in lm"

True, most enemies are lv 1 in Lyn Mode. So? That doesn't mean he can't gain about a level per chapter.

Also, I'd like to point out that Dorcas is arguably the worst Lyn Mode unit. Perhaps Wil is worse upon joining, but that's pretty much it. Point is, this doesn't matter at all. Since we're debating Dorcas, we decide that he's on our team. It doesn't matter that he's worse than others. He's on our team, so he can get just as much Exp as your other unit. You can give some Exp to Sain, Kent, Florina or whoever you want, but it doesn't matter much, since both Dorcas and the other unit gain Exp and gain stats when they gain a level. Indeed, the net benefit towards the team is pretty much the same.

So, time for some comparing the two of them.

16 Iron Axe Dorcas, A Bartre/B Oswin

26 Atk, 9 AS, 115 Hit, 26 Crt -- 40 HP, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 4 Res

14 Iron Lance Oswin, B Dorcas

23 Atk, 6 AS, 109 Hit, 10 Crt -- 33 HP, 29 Avo, 17 Def, 6 Res

Why is Oswin only a miserable lv 14? Because he can barely keep up with the team. All he does is reduce efficieny when it comes to beating chapters quickly.

Now, let's see how they fare against some lv 5 enemies.

5 Steel Lance Cavalier

18 Atk, 3 AS, 82 Hit -- 27 HP, 8 Def

Dorcas doubles and kills. Oswin can switch to a Steel Lance if he wants, but he won't one-round with it. Dorcas wins offense.

Dorcas gets five-rounded at 5% true hit, survives 100 rounds.

Oswin gets 33-rounded at 56% true hit, survives 59 rounds.

5 Steel Axe Brigand

20 Atk, 5 AS, 73 Hit -- 27 HP, 4 Def

Dorcas doubles and kills. Oswin does not, and he can miss.

Dorcas gets four-rounded at 9% true hit, survives 44 rounds.

Oswin gets nine-rounded at 67% true hit, survives 13 rounds.

Dorcas has superior offense, as well as superior durability. Not that Oswin is going to die anytime soon, but it does mean something.

24 Killer Axe Dorcas, A Bartre/B Oswin

34 Atk, 10 AS, 116 Hit, 63 Crt -- 49 HP, 56 Avo, 13 Def, 8 Res

21 Killer Lance Oswin, B Dorcas

31 Atk, 11 AS, 106 Hit, 42 Crt -- 42 HP, 39 Avo, 22 Def, 10 Res

Dorcas has superior offense, while durability is pretty much debatable, I'd say.

So, what do we have in the end.

-Dorcas has superior offense.

-Dorcas has superior durability for a good part of the game.

-Dorcas has superior supports.

-Dorcas can actually reach things so that he can kill efficiently.

-Dorcas' low AS doesn't hurt him as much as you might think.

-Dorcas gives support bonuses to two persons instead of one.

-Dorcas gets a bonus against fliers upon promotion.

-Dorcas promotes quite a bit earlier.

-Dorcas fights for his wife. He's not a lame Knight in service of house Ostia.

Dorcas > Oswin

Tried to keep it a bit short. Your turn.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

I know I'm kinda late, sorry for the delay and this won't happen again but lets get it started!

First things first:

He starts off with early utilities.

Make's a great shield.

Good for guarding Merlinus.

And you actually don't have to use him through the end-game.

Oswin here has the real best support over Dorcas. He really doesn't need to support with Dorcas when he's much better off supporting with your other available candidates such as Hector. If not him then Priscilla and Matt would do just fine.

Oswin will be an even better tank, and still be a strong killer. He has a good chance of maxing HP and DEF. His other stats will be good as well. He also ranks in the top 5 highest total 20/20 stats. Oswin has almost just as much offensive potential almost as Dorcas does. He can OHKO a lot of units as well.

He is also also useful in chapters when you have to protect someone and survive. Put Oswin and another tank in front of an area enemies can go in to reach the enemy. Now the enemies can't reach their goal. Meanwhile, your other units can proceed to killing all the enemies. Playing a slow, defensive game with Oswin is a great idea in many scenarios.

Dorcas has no REAL candidates to be supported anyways.

I mainly expect some kind of attack on Bartre being an incredibly fragile earlygame unit. True. However, his Dorcas support is uber fast, and this gives him pretty sweet boosts in the form of 1 Def and 10 Avo very quickly. Not to mention that he can also throw Hand Axes from behind Dorcas if he wants, so that they can still build their support while Bartre doesn't.

There's no guarantee that Bartre should ever be used. For starters, he begins with 3 Speed. I mean, there's no way he can be usable. So he's definitely out of the questions there. Any level he gain's is consider babying.

Bartre is pretty easily comparable to a high/god tier unit. That's pretty awesome. I'm not saying Bartre is statistically superior than Sain, but he is definitely comparable to him.

Dorcas doubles and kills. Oswin does not, and he can miss.

No he doesn't. He starts off with decent speed, yes. But the fact that he averages out approximately 13 Speed? End-game enemy units have a grand total of 18 speed. They can double the Dorcas.

Because he has such low Speed, it would cripple his offense, negating a good chunk of his accuracy will get hit a lot. Especially when you combining with his Axe to rape his Accuracy rating.

So, what do we have in the end.

Fix'd

-Oswin has superior DEF

-Oswin is somewhat offensive but who cares if Dorcas has better Str than Oswin?

-Oswin has better support candidates

-As a General, Oswin's lance/axe combo provides immunity to a weakness in the weapon triangle. While Oswin can't beat axes, he can use axes, so he can take less damage not that he needs to take less damage.

-Great Meat shield

-Very good at luring enemies too.

So in other words Oswin > Dorcas. :P

[Tino]

Before I start, you have neglected many of my points, so I'm going to assume that you haven't found a good argument against them, which means almost all my points still stand.

He starts off with early utilities.

Make's a great shield.

Good for guarding Merlinus.

And you actually don't have to use him through the end-game.

I shall assume you're talking about Oswin here, but really, the same applies to Dorcas. He has massive earlygame offense, as well as awesome durability thanks to that sexy HP. He can guard Merlinus very well, too, although you'll probably want him to be at the front with his massive Atk, to kill more stuff than Oswin and thus gain experience faster. And indeed, Dorcas isn't auto-fielded endgame.

Your point?

And next time, please specify who you're talking about.

Oswin here has the real best support over Dorcas. He really doesn't need to support with Dorcas when he's much better off supporting with your other available candidates such as Hector. If not him then Priscilla and Matt would do just fine.

You completely neglected what I said. You didn't counter any of my points there. My point thus still stands. Aight.

Oswin will be an even better tank, and still be a strong killer. He has a good chance of maxing HP and DEF. His other stats will be good as well. He also ranks in the top 5 highest total 20/20 stats. Oswin has almost just as much offensive potential almost as Dorcas does. He can OHKO a lot of units as well.

Sadly, I can't look up true averages, so I can't check their true averages, so you'll have to be satisfied with simple averages.

20/20 Oswin

59 HP, 27 Str, 20 Skl, 17 Spd, 14 Luc, 30 Def, 15 Res

20/20 Dorcas

60 HP, 30 Str, 23 Skl, 13 Spd, 17 Luc, 15 Def, 8 Res

Oswin: 182

Dorcas: 166

Oh no! Oswin beats Dorcas in 20/20 stats!

Seriously, it matters nothing, since Oswin will not reach 20/20 with lollable movement. Dorcas comes at level 11 in chapter 12, which gives him 25+ chapters to gain 29 levels. That means he'll have to gain ~1.1 levels per chapter, which is easily possible since he can actually keep up with the team.

He is also also useful in chapters when you have to protect someone and survive. Put Oswin and another tank in front of an area enemies can go in to reach the enemy. Now the enemies can't reach their goal. Meanwhile, your other units can proceed to killing all the enemies. Playing a slow, defensive game with Oswin is a great idea in many scenarios.

Hmm, let's see. So Oswin is defending a chokepoint, where he two or three-rounds stuff and thus gains experience very slowly, while Dorcas is out there killing a lot of stuff and gaining quite a bit of experience, giving him quite a big lead? Awesome.

Dorcas has no REAL candidates to be supported anyways.

I'm going to let you play a game called "find the sarcasm".

Thanks for backing up your point with so much evidence.

Easy game, no?

My point still stands.

There's no guarantee that Bartre should ever be used. For starters, he begins with 3 Speed. I mean, there's no way he can be usable. So he's definitely out of the questions there. Any level he gain's is consider babying.

Yes, he begins with 3 AS. I also mentioned that he gets doubled by a grand total of two enemies in Birds of a Feather.

As for any levels he gains being babying, the exact same applies to Oswin and Dorcas. They take experience that somebody else could've taken. Neither Dorcas nor Oswin has an advantage or disadvantage here, and neither has Bartre.

No he doesn't. He starts off with decent speed, yes. But the fact that he averages out approximately 13 Speed? End-game enemy units have a grand total of 18 speed. They can double the Dorcas.

I didn't even mention Dorcas actually doubling things endgame. What I said was that he was doubling earlygame things. In other words, your statement is completely irrelevant to the point I made.

Because he has such low Speed, it would cripple his offense, negating a good chunk of his accuracy will get hit a lot. Especially when you combining with his Axe to rape his Accuracy rating.

Dorcas has Hit supports, as well as great Skill and good Luck. Dorcas has no trouble hitting things, aside of Swordmasters or sword-wielding Heroes. Don't forget that enemies have pathetic Avo.

-Oswin has superior DEF

Indeed. His earlygame durability is still worse than Dorcas', though, as I've proven.

-Oswin is somewhat offensive but who cares if Dorcas has better Str than Oswin?

Err, neither Dorcas nor Oswin are doubling things endgame, so Dorcas has a superior damage output. That indeed gives him superior offense.

-Oswin has better support candidates

Again, you haven't proven a single thing here. As long as you fail to prove your points correct, mine will keep standing until you do.

-As a General, Oswin's lance/axe combo provides immunity to a weakness in the weapon triangle. While Oswin can't beat axes, he can use axes, so he can take less damage not that he needs to take less damage.

And Dorcas can use bows to kill all those annoying wyverns.

Dorcas improves from not killing some things to actually killing some things. Oswin improves from not dying to... not dying. Great. Dorcas' overall improvement is a lot better.

-Great Meat shield

Yeah, indeed. A great meat shield who can't even get in front of your other characters.

-Very good at luring enemies too.

Because he can't get in front of your other characters? Lol.

So in other words Oswin > Dorcas.

False.

Please try to stop neglecting many points in your debates, and actually back up the points you do make.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Alrighteee...now to get back where I started...

I shall assume you're talking about Oswin here, but really, the same applies to Dorcas. He has massive earlygame offense, as well as awesome durability thanks to that sexy HP. He can guard Merlinus very well, too, although you'll probably want him to be at the front with his massive Atk, to kill more stuff than Oswin and thus gain experience faster. And indeed, Dorcas isn't auto-fielded endgame.

Because he is an Armour unit, enemies would do less damage no thanks to his imponderable Defense to begin with.

Oswin uses his defense to play a counter, slow moving game, while warriors use high offense ability to plow through and pick off enemies before they can attack. Generals work well with archers and magic users, warriors work well with other field units such as heroes and paladins in order to mow down units. It's situational use, and dependable upon a player's style which one has the better use.

Seriously, it matters nothing, since Oswin will not reach 20/20 with lollable movement. Dorcas comes at level 11 in chapter 12, which gives him 25+ chapters to gain 29 levels. That means he'll have to gain ~1.1 levels per chapter, which is easily possible since he can actually keep up with the team.

Yes it does, the fact that Oswin has 30 Def makes enemies do 0 damages. Also, I looked at the average stats, and it turns out Oswin has more Speed than Dorcas.

As for any levels he gains being babying, the exact same applies to Oswin and Dorcas. They take experience that somebody else could've taken. Neither Dorcas nor Oswin has an advantage or disadvantage here, and neither has Bartre.

Not really, Oswin and Dorcas are in a far different situation. Dorcas has more opportunities to be trained on Lyn's mode and Oswin starts out at Level 9 and have several opportunities to hit 20/20 then. Bartre starts off at level 2. That's real babying there because of his speed.

Hmm, let's see. So Oswin is defending a chokepoint, where he two or three-rounds stuff and thus gains experience very slowly, while Dorcas is out there killing a lot of stuff and gaining quite a bit of experience, giving him quite a big lead? Awesome.

Oswin can pretty much control the weapon triangle.

Oswin has the part of surviving powerful attacks and countering with a nice, strong kill. He makes an excellent wall when protecting your units at the rear of the group when reinforcements appear from behind. Other units may play a front line killer role. If you put him out in front without weapons, enemies will pop out of the fog and attack him. This gives your other units the ability to kill off these enemies and move on to another area of the said map. In fact, Oswin makes a good enemy magnet in almost any chapter.

You completely neglected what I said. You didn't counter any of my points there. My point thus still stands. Aight.

Again, you haven't proven a single thing here. As long as you fail to prove your points correct, mine will keep standing until you do.

I'm assuming your mainly talking about Bartre's support? Because I already refuted that he is unusable. Dorcas also support with Farina and Vaida who suck anyways and shouldn't be used. Geitz...meh, good for few chapters but end-game...nah.

Err, neither Dorcas nor Oswin are doubling things endgame, so Dorcas has a superior damage output. That indeed gives him superior offense.

@ Lv. 20/20 Oswin then should have better Speed than Dorcas since Dorcas has 20% Speed Growth whereas Oswin has 30% Speed growth.

Dorcas has Hit supports, as well as great Skill and good Luck. Dorcas has no trouble hitting things, aside of Swordmasters or sword-wielding Heroes. Don't forget that enemies have pathetic Avo.

I didn't even mention Dorcas actually doubling things endgame. What I said was that he was doubling earlygame things. In other words, your statement is completely irrelevant to the point I made.

Alright, but here's a little problem: Dorcas and would double more and more damages would be inflicted. While Oswin may get double, less damage would be inflicted or he gets 'No Damage' at all thanks to his Defense.

Wow, your pretty good. Finish me off Tino :P

Edited November 23, 2008 by 安室 奈美恵

[Tino]

Alrighteee...now to get back where I started...

The post I've been waiting for so long is finally there :)

Because he is an Armour unit, enemies would do less damage no thanks to his imponderable Defense to begin with.

16 Iron Axe Dorcas, A Bartre/B Oswin

26 Atk, 9 AS, 115 Hit, 26 Crt -- 40 HP, 52 Avo, 8 Def, 4 Res

14 Iron Lance Oswin, B Dorcas

23 Atk, 6 AS, 109 Hit, 10 Crt -- 33 HP, 29 Avo, 17 Def, 6 Res

5 Steel Lance Cavalier

18 Atk, 3 AS, 82 Hit -- 27 HP, 8 Def

Dorcas gets five-rounded at 5% true hit, survives 100 rounds.

Oswin gets 33-rounded at 56% true hit, survives 59 rounds.

5 Steel Axe Brigand

20 Atk, 5 AS, 73 Hit -- 27 HP, 4 Def

Dorcas gets four-rounded at 9% true hit, survives 44 rounds.

Oswin gets nine-rounded at 67% true hit, survives 13 rounds.

As I've shown, there actually is a point where Dorcas has superior durability. As soon as Oswin promotes, he'll be winning durability. However, as I've shown, Dorcas is superior before that point. And Oswin is promoting fairly late anyway. Kent and Sain come out of Lyn Mode at 10/0, likely even higher, and they'll be leveling a lot faster than Oswin due to actual mobility and actually doubling things. Then there's also Lowen. They will likely take the first and second Knight's Crest after Chapter 17 and 22, and then Oswin can take the Earth Seal from Chapter 24.

Dorcas however, has no trouble promoting at all. He comes at a massive level and then needs only 9 or 10 levels before he can take that Hero Crest you obtain in Chapter 17. He has Chapter 12, 13, 13x, 14, 15 and 16 before you get it. That's mean 1.5 levels per chapter, which would be too much, but he can easily promote at the start of Chapter 18, since that would give him Chapter 17 and 17x, which would mean he only needs ~1.2 levels per chapter, which is easily possible (I'd say 1.3/1.4 is about average).

Dorcas will be promoting in Chapter 18, while Oswin will be promoting at the end of Chapter 24/start of Chapter 25. Wut? My comparison was incredibly flawed!

Chapter 18

20/1 Dorcas, A Bartre/C Oswin

Steel Axe: 31 Atk, 9 AS, 112 Hit, 25 Crt -- 47 HP, 49 Avo, 12 Def, 8 Res

16/0 Oswin, C Dorcas (16/0 due to lol Mov)

Steel Lance: 27 Atk, 7 AS, 96 Hit, 10 Crt -- 34 HP, 24 Avo, 17 Def, 5 Res

And that's without taking Oswin's movement, Dorcas benefitting more people and Dorcas's ability to use bows into consideration. Oswin gets raeped a lot.

Chapter 24

20/7 Dorcas, A Bartre/B Oswin

Killer Axe: 35 Atk, 11 AS, 119 Hit, 59 Crt -- 51 HP, 61 Avo, 14 Def, 8 Res

20/1 Oswin, B Dorcas

Killer Lance: 31 Atk, 11 AS, 106 Hit, 42 Crt -- 42 HP, 39 Avo, 22 Def, 9 Res

Dorcas still raepes a lot. He's aiding Bartre and Oswin, while Oswin only benefits Dorcas. Dorcas is killing more than half the enemies if he doesn't one-round, while Oswin actually might miss things due to his lollable hit (axes make this even worse for him, while bows only improve Dorcas's accuracy). Durability is debatable, I suppose, since Oswin does have a lot of Def and Res. I suppose Oswin does indeed win durability, but only by a small bit, since Dorcas actually has reliable Avo.

Dorcas >> Oswin on offense due to Crt, Hit and being awesome against fliers, and he also wins mobility by a good bit (keeping up with the team >>> falling behind). Oswin has an easily debatable durability lead.

Dorcas >> Oswin once Oswin promotes, and since Dorcas will be killing more things, he'll be able to maintain this level lead rather easily. Sweet.

Oswin uses his defense to play a counter, slow moving game, while warriors use high offense ability to plow through and pick off enemies before they can attack. Generals work well with archers and magic users, warriors work well with other field units such as heroes and paladins in order to mow down units. It's situational use, and dependable upon a player's style which one has the better use.

What's this all about? Oswin is a fighter, and so is Dorcas. Both have to kill things and survive. Dorcas is better at killing things throughout the entire game, and is better at surviving at least until Oswin promotes as well.

Units with which they work well don't exist. But even if they would, Dorcas still is superior.

A Sniper and Warrior both move six spaces. When I use a Sniper and a General, I can only move 5 spaces at most. Moving six spaces > moving five spaces for obvious reasons. The same applies to mages.

Also, you obviously don't want to take ages to beat the game, since that would ruin your Tactics rank. Using Dorcas to "mow down" enemies, you'll be benefiting yourself a lot more than when you're playing a "counter, slow moving" game (whatever that's supposed to be).

Yes it does, the fact that Oswin has 30 Def makes enemies do 0 damages. Also, I looked at the average stats, and it turns out Oswin has more Speed than Dorcas.

Wut? 20/13 Oswin has 27 Def without supports, and Dorcas gives him +1 Def, making it 28 (and it's even arguably if he'll be 20/13). 20/10 Oswin, for example, has 26 Def (with B Dorcas that'd be 27).

Anyway, yes, at equal levels, Oswin has superior Speed. Good thing they won't be at equal levels. Good for Dorcas at least. Oh yeah, and 20/10 Oswin has 14 AS instead of the 13 AS 20/20 Dorcas will have (or 15 at 20/13, oh noez).

Not really, Oswin and Dorcas are in a far different situation. Dorcas has more opportunities to be trained on Lyn's mode and Oswin starts out at Level 9 and have several opportunities to hit 20/20 then. Bartre starts off at level 2. That's real babying there because of his speed.

Like I said, he'll be doubled by a grand total of 2 enemies in Birds of a Feather, and less than 2 (if any at all) in the following chapters, so that's not a problem.

Babying is the process of sacrificing efficiency in order to make one unit better, but giving Bartre kills that others could've gotten doesn't reduce efficieny since he'll actually be a good unit, as I've proven with the comparison in my first post.

Oswin can pretty much control the weapon triangle.

Dorcas can kill all those nasty Pegasi and Wyverns (promoted and unpromoted for both). That's worth a lot more than partial weapon triangle control.

Oswin has the part of surviving powerful attacks and countering with a nice, strong kill. He makes an excellent wall when protecting your units at the rear of the group when reinforcements appear from behind. Other units may play a front line killer role. If you put him out in front without weapons, enemies will pop out of the fog and attack him. This gives your other units the ability to kill off these enemies and move on to another area of the said map. In fact, Oswin makes a good enemy magnet in almost any chapter.

I can agree with the first part of enemy reinforcements arriving behind you (except that this will very rarely happen and they'll have trouble catching up to your team usually anyway, but whatever :/), but the second part is something I can't agree with at all.

Putting Oswin at the front of your team is reducing efficiency, which I've talked about earlier in this post, since you're moving quite a bit slower than you would otherwise, especially since you'll often be moving only 4 spaces due to Oswin being hindered by terrain. Otherwise, your team would be moving 1.5 to 1.25 times as fast. Oswin is not good for the frontlines, but at the back he will only rarely get kills. And at the back he'll rarely have enemies attack him.

I'm assuming your mainly talking about Bartre's support? Because I already refuted that he is unusable. Dorcas also support with Farina and Vaida who suck anyways and shouldn't be used. Geitz...meh, good for few chapters but end-game...nah.

No, all you said was that he has only 3 Speed when he joins, and thus called him unusable. My comparisons to Sain and Lucius said otherwise, though.

For reference~

10 Iron Axe Bartre, B Dorcas

22 Atk, 6 AS, 101 Hit, 14 Crt -- 36 HP, 28 Avo, 7 Def, 3 Res

10 Iron Lance Sain

20 Atk, 10 AS, 93 Hit, 3 Crt -- 26 HP, 27 Avo, 8 Def, 2 Res

Bartre is pretty easily comparable to a high/god tier unit. That's pretty awesome. I'm not saying Bartre is statistically superior than Sain, but he is definitely comparable to him.

12 Iron Axe Bartre, A Dorcas

23 Atk, 7 AS, 103 Hit, 19 Crt -- 38 HP, 36 Avo, 8 Def, 4 Res

7 Lightning Lucius

13 Atk, 12 AS, 112 Hit, 9 Crt -- 20 HP, 27 Avo, 1 Def, 8 Res

Aight. Bartre has double Crt, almost doubles Lucius' Atk and HP and has a whopping 7 more Def as well, as well as some Avo. What does Lucius have? lolHit and some AS and some Res. Yes, I'm well aware of the fact that Lucius can actually double, but does this make him superior?

Let's say we have some Cavalier dood. He has 8 Def and 1 Res. Lucius doubles, Bartre does not. Bartre can thus switch to a Steel Axe for 3 more Atk, while he doesn't get doubled. Bartre deals a sweet 19 damage and thus two-rounds, while Lucius deals 24 damage and thus two-rounds. But then, the gap between enemy Def/Res only needs to be 2-3 points less to make them pretty much equal if lucius doubles when Bartre does not. If both double, Bartre obviously wins. If neither double, Bartre also obviously wins.

@ Lv. 20/20 Oswin then should have better Speed than Dorcas since Dorcas has 20% Speed Growth whereas Oswin has 30% Speed growth.

Yeah, except that Oswin will be somewhere between 20/10 and 20/13 endgame, and not 20/20 (which is the level Dorcas will be at indeed). That means he has a whopping 1-2 AS on Dorcas. He's still not doubling, and thus killing, more than Dorcas.

Alright, but here's a little problem: Dorcas and would double more and more damages would be inflicted. While Oswin may get double, less damage would be inflicted or he gets 'No Damage' at all thanks to his Defense.

Like I said in my first post, Dorcas will be killed in 44+ rounds on average, while Oswin will be killed in 13+ rounds on average, so Dorcas has superior durability. Dorcas killing something won't get him killed.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

oh...crap. I'm out of arguments there. :o Looks like you win this one. Now to work on Mekkah's debate. :E