Tino vs. Swordsalmon

[Tino]

Coming soon...

[Tino]

Please forgive the tl;dr...

Soren has pretty awesome Crt. A lv 25 Elthunder Soren has 21 Crt and 22% Adept, allowing for a 60+% chance to activate something when he doubles something, which he usually does, even with Elthunder. And even if he doesn't activate something, he's one-rounding anyway. Yay for massive offense.

And don't even start about Marcia also having good offense. Let's say we have a lv 21 Marcia in ch. 17.1, in which there are some Fighters. The weakest Fighters have 36 HP/8 Def, and Marcia deals 17 damage against them. She can't kill Archers and Snipers with a Javelin and deals 8 damage against Knights. She also fails to kill the Halberdier. There are also Myrmidon reinforcements which can have 17 AS, meaning she can't kill them.

Let's be generous to Marcia and give her a level in Ch. 17.1 so that she's lv 22 in ch. 17.2. Weapon Knights have 29 HP/12 Def, so she doesn't kill. She can only kills Weapon Knights with 27-28 HP/10-11 Def, which are the minority of Weapon Knights. Paladins? Lolno she doesn't kill them. Heck, she doesn't even come close with her pitiful 11 damage per hit against them. Marcia almost kills Wyverns. 1 more Atk would've allowed her to kill them. Poor Marcia.

So yeah, Marcia's offense is anything but good.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make in the first paragraph is that when neither Soren nor Marcia kills something, then Soren is superior due to having a higher chance of activating something.

Not that it exists so early, but let's pretend there's a 35 HP/15 Def/10 Res enemy in ch. 16. Lv 18 Elthunder Soren and B Ike deals 15 damage and has a 40+% chance to activate a Crt or Adept (he has 10 Crt and 17% Adept). Lv 18 Iron Lance Marcia deals 5 damage, 8 with Killer or Steel. Pathetic. Both double, by the way. She needs two crits to kill, and she has about an 8% chance of doing so. Soren's chance of activating something is over five times as good.

Now, Soren has a few advantages since he uses magic.

He has doubled Mt against Laguz and fliers, of which there are quite a lot. Especially Wyverns show up quite a lot later in the game, and they have pretty uber Def, while they have fairly terrible Res. Soren has doubled Mt against them, doubles them and thus kills them. Marcia has trouble killing them. Does this uber small boost matter a lot? Yeah, it definitely helps him.

Lv 23 Elwind Soren has 29 Atk against Wyverns, lv 23 Steel Lance Marcia has 27 Atk. Lv 15 Wyverns have 33 HP/16 Def/6 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does not.

Soren's magic hits Res, which is usually lower than Def. That's an advantage already.

Then here's one of the big deals. Lances have more Mt than Soren's Thunder tomes, but you must not forget that Soren hits Res. Do the lances give Marcia an offensive edge? No.

Lv 21 Soren has 26 Atk. Lv 21 Marcia has 26 Atk as well.

Lv 15 Soldiers have 31 HP/10 Def/5 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does as well.

Lv 15 Knights have 32 HP/18 Def/6 Res. Soren kills. Marcia fails massively.

Lv 15 Mages have 24 HP/6 Def/12 Res. Both kill.

Lv 3 Halberdiers have 37 HP/11 Def/7 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does not.

Oh snap. Soren wins offense. And he has a lot of Crt and Adept to increase his offense lead even more. Oh snap again.

Let's get back to those enemies outlined earlier, from ch. 17.1, against which Marcia had problems. The Fighter has 5 Res, so lv 21 Elthunder Soren kills. Soren rapes the Archer. If you want to know why I gave Marcia a Javelin, it's because although Marcia will be able to kill the Archer with a Steel Lance, that also means she won't be able to counter, meaning she's barely better off. Soren kills the Sniper. He lolraepes Knights. He doesn't kill the Halberdier, but that's when we get back to the the situation I described in the first paragraph. Soren has a ~55% chance to activate a Crt or Adept and still kill it.

Soren rapes Weapon Knights and Wyverns, and Paladins have 34 HP/8 Res, so Soren still kills.

Soren's offense easily >>>> Marcia's offense.

Now, I wasn't done with Soren's advantages due to using magic yet. Soren always has 1-2 range, which is pretty dang awesome. He doesn't get countered on the player phase and ranged enemies won't attack him since they don't want to get countered, meaning they'll go for somebody not called Soren, improving his durability.

"But Marcia has Javelins!"

True. Marcia can have 1-2 range from time to time as well. However, this means that she also has less offense. With normal 1 range, she has normal offense. She can't have 1-2 range and normal offense at the same time. Soren can. Massive win.

Lv 12 Archers have 25 HP/8 Def/4 Res. Lv 15 Thunder Soren has 18 Atk and kills. Lv 15 Javelin Marcia has 18 Atk and doesn't kill (with a Steel Lance, she does).

So yeah, Marcia can choose to one-round but not counter it, or counter but not one-round it. Soren can do both at the same time. Aight. Also, for Marcia to match Soren's Atk, she's going to need Short Spears, which can't be bought and have a miserable 15 uses. And even with them she performs a bit worse than Soren due to hitting Def instead of Res, and she fails anyway since she's taking rare weapons that Soren doesn't.

Hmm, next point... Soren has hax Res? Yes, he does. He has uber hax Res. Where lv 21 Marcia takes 11 damage from a lv 16 Elwind Mage takes lv 21 Soren only 0 damage. Def?

Lv 21 Soren with B Ike has 31 HP/7 Def/19 Res/61 Avo

Lv 21 Marcia with C Kieran has 32 HP/14 Def/14 Res/52 Avo

Lv 18 Steel Axe Fighter has 25 Atk/85 Hit.

Soren is two-rounded at 12% true hit, survives 17 rounds.

Marcia is three-rounded at 22% true hit, survives 14 rounds.

Lv 4 Steel Bow Sniper has 22 Atk/108 Hit.

Soren is three-rounded at 45% true hit, survives 7 rounds.

FG Marcia is four-rounded at 62% true hit, survives 6 rounds.

Marcia is two-rounded at 62% true hit, survives 3 rounds.

Lv 16 Elfire Mage has 19 Atk/106 Hit.

Soren takes 0 damage.

Marcia is seven-rounded at 58% true hit, survives 12 rounds.

Soren always wins durability, even though Marcia has double Soren's Def. And that's even without considering Soren's 1-2 range, Soren's ability to use terrain to his advantage, and that was it XD Soren undeniably wins durability. Not to mention that Soren should actually have a level lead from using staves. 24 heals/mends give him C staves and 278 exp. 2 level lead already. One Physic will increase this to three levels. Awesome. Oh snap. Soren suddenly wins both offense and durability.

Like I said, Soren can use terrain to his advantage, whereas Marcia cannot. Granted, there are barely any defensive tiles, but it still counts for something ^_^

Bows are a huge threat to Marcia. Like I said above, Marcia is two-rounded at 62% true hit. That's a 38% chance of getting killed in two rounds right there, which sucks hard. Sure, she gains 20 Avo from A Tanith/B Kieran, but that means she still has a 26% true chance of getting hit, which is still a 7% chance of getting killed. Besides, lv 21 Marcia won't have that 20 Avo boost yet anyway.

As for the Full Guard, it does not eliminate Marcia's weakness to bows, since it isn't there all the time and other units want it as well (lolReyson). It is and will always be a problem that Marcia has and that Soren has not.

What's more to say... Soren has uber healing utility. You can't deny that healing is incredibly useful. When Soren hits C staves, he'll be able to use the uber Physic staves, which grant him ~1 level per five uses. Heck, staves give him an own exp pool of which nobody else can draw exp from. Massive win. And no, Soren won't get knives >_<

Also, him getting exp from healing benefits the entire team more, since he allows others to take the kill Soren could've taken, Soren increases the team's overall durability and Soren gains more exp from healing than from fighting. 22 exp from Physic > any cexp Soren will get.

Now, I also expect some kind of attack on their mobility.

Sure, Marcia's mov > Soren's mov, and sure, more mov > less mov, but that doesn't make the difference between the two of them fighting or not fighting. Soren will be fighting just as much. Besides, as I've shown, Marcia doesn't exactly have good durability, which means she won't even be flying away as much as you might think. Not towards groups of enemies, at least.

Also, Soren's attacking range is just as big as your other character's anyway. He has 1-2 range, remember? 7 range right there, as well as the possibilty of attacking from 12 different spaces, as opposed to lol4 or 8.

Oh yeah, Soren fails earlygame, right?

Lv 9 Soren has 11 Mag/11 Spd, while Lv 5 Marcia has 8 Str/11 Spd. They'll feature the same Atk, but Soren has 1-2 range and hits Res. The winner is indeed Soren.

And now I'm getting tired of typing. Massive tl;dr, I know, and I'm sorry :(

Anyway, Soren > Marcia

Your turn ;)

[Swordsalmon]

Sorry for the late reply. :(

But first, I must point out the obvious. Marcia is a girl, Soren is a boy. Yet Marcia is the one who's flying around and stabbing guys with her pokey spear of death. Soren hides behind Ike to make little breezes and hopes that will distract the enemy enough so he can run away like a coward. Marcia scares her older and very manly brother Makalov into recruitment. Soren is torn apart by everything he can't jump out of the way. And that's everything. As such, our pink-haired beauty Marcia is manlier than an actual man. You suck, Soren.

Soren has pretty awesome Crt. A lv 25 Elthunder Soren has 21 Crt and 22% Adept, allowing for a 60+% chance to activate something when he doubles something, which he usually does, even with Elthunder. And even if he doesn't activate something, he's one-rounding anyway. Yay for massive offense.

Which is true critical and activations 9.03% and 9.9%. That's not good. Generals and Warriors have 48-58 HP by late-game, so Soren is two-rounding even with their lolresistance. Paladins and Swordmasters all have enough AS to avoid being one-rounded, too. Decent offense, but not excellent.

And don't even start about Marcia also having good offense. Let's say we have a lv 21 Marcia in ch. 17.1, in which there are some Fighters. The weakest Fighters have 36 HP/8 Def, and Marcia deals 17 damage against them. She can't kill Archers and Snipers with a Javelin and deals 8 damage against Knights. She also fails to kill the Halberdier. There are also Myrmidon reinforcements which can have 17 AS, meaning she can't kill them.

So yeah, Marcia's offense is anything but good.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make in the first paragraph is that when neither Soren nor Marcia kills something, then Soren is superior due to having a higher chance of activating something.

With what weapon? Steel Lance Marcia DAs the Fighters and two-rounds them, dealing 40 damage. Knights can be killed with the Heavy Spear, and the Myrmidons are two-rounded. Archers are DA'd and killed by Steel Lance. Not like Soren's doing any better. He may target Resistance, but the only tomes available are basics and his AS at level 20/2 w/ Wind is 18; two lower than Marcia's.

Marcia also has Silver Weapons soon enough.

Not that it exists so early, but let's pretend there's a 35 HP/15 Def/10 Res enemy in ch. 16. Lv 18 Elthunder Soren and B Ike deals 15 damage and has a 40+% chance to activate a Crt or Adept (he has 10 Crt and 17% Adept). Lv 18 Iron Lance Marcia deals 5 damage, 8 with Killer or Steel. Pathetic. Both double, by the way. She needs two crits to kill, and she has about an 8% chance of doing so. Soren's chance of activating something is over five times as good.

Now, Soren has a few advantages since he uses magic.

He has doubled Mt against Laguz and fliers, of which there are quite a lot. Especially Wyverns show up quite a lot later in the game, and they have pretty uber Def, while they have fairly terrible Res. Soren has doubled Mt against them, doubles them and thus kills them. Marcia has trouble killing them. Does this uber small boost matter a lot? Yeah, it definitely helps him.

Wait. Let's first discuss supports.

Soren has:

Ike

Stefan

Marcia has:

Tanith

Gatrie

Kieran

Rofl

Obviously Gatrie and Rofl fail, so no support. However, Tanith and Kieran are both excellent characters, and in need of supports. Marcia can A support with Kieran and B with Tanith.

Now Soren's list is worthless. Ike wants Oscar and Titania too much to bother with Soren, and Stefan support is far too slow. Also, he can get Mordecai A which gives epic bonuses. Soren's getting only Stefan B.

With that done, now onto the real things. There's a single Elthunder by Chapter 17, and it'll most likely than not be used to give an edge on early-game enemies. Soren's stuck with Thunder.

Thunder Soren deals 11 damage and DAs the enemy, with true 8.2% Adept and .55% Critical. A supportless Steel Lance Marcia deals 11 damage and DAs. So they’re pretty equal.

Marcia can use a Laguz Lance for the same effectiveness. Effectiveness against Wyverns is indeed a positive for Soren, but that can prove a hindrance defensively. A level 18 Steel Lance Wyvern Rider has about 109% Hit and 33 Attack. Level 20/3 Soren w/ Wind and Stefan C has 43% Avoid, 32 HP, and 7 Defense. The Wyvern hits at true 77.22% on Soren, dealing 26 damage. Also, Wyvern Riders tend to attack in groups. So even if Soren kills one Rider, another will come and kill him easily.

Level 20/3 Marcia w/ Kieran B, Tanith C has 52% Avoid, 33 HP, and 14 Defense. The Wyvern hits Marcia at true hit 63.45%, dealing 19 damage. Both Sore and Marcia are two-rounded, but Marcia’s higher Avoid gives her a better chance of surviving.

Lv 23 Elwind Soren has 29 Atk against Wyverns, lv 23 Steel Lance Marcia has 27 Atk. Lv 15 Wyverns have 33 HP/16 Def/6 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does not.

Soren's magic hits Res, which is usually lower than Def. That's an advantage already.

Then here's one of the big deals. Lances have more Mt than Soren's Thunder tomes, but you must not forget that Soren hits Res. Do the lances give Marcia an offensive edge? No.

Lv 21 Soren has 26 Atk. Lv 21 Marcia has 26 Atk as well.

Lv 15 Soldiers have 31 HP/10 Def/5 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does as well.

Lv 15 Knights have 32 HP/18 Def/6 Res. Soren kills. Marcia fails massively.

Lv 15 Mages have 24 HP/6 Def/12 Res. Both kill.

Lv 3 Halberdiers have 37 HP/11 Def/7 Res. Soren kills, Marcia does not.

Oh snap. Soren wins offense. And he has a lot of Crt and Adept to increase his offense lead even more. Oh snap again.

Marcia can bring out a Silver Lance and with Kieran B, one-rounds the Wyvern.

Except Marcia can spam Steel and later Silvers for the entire game, while Elthunder comes only in so many chapters. Also, without Ike B, let's look again.

Soren deals 20 damage against the level 15 Loldier and DAs. Marcia deals 20 damage and DAs. Still equal.

Soren deals 19 damage against level 15 Knight and DAs. Marcia can use the Heavy Spear against Knight and one-round him.

Mages die from everything. XD

Soren deals 18 damage against the level 3 Halberdier and if DAs, 36 damage. Marcia deals 19 damage and DAs, killing the Halberdier.

Doesn't look like Soren's doing better now. Critical and Adept rarely activate as-is, so they're a non-factor.

Now, I wasn't done with Soren's advantages due to using magic yet. Soren always has 1-2 range, which is pretty dang awesome. He doesn't get countered on the player phase and ranged enemies won't attack him since they don't want to get countered, meaning they'll go for somebody not called Soren, improving his durability.

"But Marcia has Javelins!"

True. Marcia can have 1-2 range from time to time as well. However, this means that she also has less offense. With normal 1 range, she has normal offense. She can't have 1-2 range and normal offense at the same time. Soren can. Massive win.

Lv 12 Archers have 25 HP/8 Def/4 Res. Lv 15 Thunder Soren has 18 Atk and kills. Lv 15 Javelin Marcia has 18 Atk and doesn't kill (with a Steel Lance, she does).

So yeah, Marcia can choose to one-round but not counter it, or counter but not one-round it. Soren can do both at the same time. Aight. Also, for Marcia to match Soren's Atk, she's going to need Short Spears, which can't be bought and have a miserable 15 uses. And even with them she performs a bit worse than Soren due to hitting Def instead of Res, and she fails anyway since she's taking rare weapons that Soren doesn't.

1-2 constant range is always nice, but not as massive of a benefit as you make. Countering the additional Archer or Javelin Wyvern Rider is a small point on the Enemy's phase. It's safe to say most enemies are Loldiers/Lolberdiers, Pony Knights, and Fighters, usually using Steel weapons. So Soren is only avoiding attacks on the Player's phase. Once the enemies come, they will target Soren first. Even with counter-avoidance, Soren has lol durability. The enemy naturally targets the weakest character, and that's Soren.

Marcia has Short Spears, three Spears, and a Flame Lance.

Level 15 Marcia w/ Short Spear has 21 Attack and one-rounds the Archer. Also, she can one-round with Steel Lance. Though Soren is one-rounding as well, consider this; Mages have 5 Movement, and Archers have 6. There's a good likelihood that Soren will be attacking the Archer at range, and is getting hit. On the another hand, Marcia can just fly in and one-round the Archer directly without fear of counter.

There's no reason to keep weapons just because they're rare. Marcia can use the few Short Spears if need be. Or she can just use the Steel Lance as previously mentioned. ;)

Hmm, next point... Soren has hax Res? Yes, he does. He has uber hax Res. Where lv 21 Marcia takes 11 damage from a lv 16 Elwind Mage takes lv 21 Soren only 0 damage. Def?

Lv 21 Soren with B Ike has 31 HP/7 Def/19 Res/61 Avo

Lv 21 Marcia with C Kieran has 32 HP/14 Def/14 Res/52 Avo

Lv 18 Steel Axe Fighter has 25 Atk/85 Hit.

Soren is two-rounded at 12% true hit, survives 17 rounds.

Marcia is three-rounded at 22% true hit, survives 14 rounds.

Lv 4 Steel Bow Sniper has 22 Atk/108 Hit.

Soren is three-rounded at 45% true hit, survives 7 rounds.

FG Marcia is four-rounded at 62% true hit, survives 6 rounds.

Marcia is two-rounded at 62% true hit, survives 3 rounds.

Lv 16 Elfire Mage has 19 Atk/106 Hit.

Soren takes 0 damage.

Marcia is seven-rounded at 58% true hit, survives 12 rounds.

Soren always wins durability, even though Marcia has double Soren's Def. And that's even without considering Soren's 1-2 range, Soren's ability to use terrain to his advantage, and that was it XD Soren undeniably wins durability. Not to mention that Soren should actually have a level lead from using staves. 24 heals/mends give him C staves and 278 exp. 2 level lead already. One Physic will increase this to three levels. Awesome. Oh snap. Soren suddenly wins both offense and durability.

Like I said, Soren can use terrain to his advantage, whereas Marcia cannot. Granted, there are barely any defensive tiles, but it still counts for something ^_^

And how many magic users are there? Not many, especially compared the greater amount of Loldiers/Pony Knights/Fighters. His Resistance doesn't matter nearly as much as Marcia's Defense leads.

Again, Soren doesn't get Ike. His Avoid is 46%.

Lv 18 Steel Axe Fighter has 25 Atk/85 Hit.

Soren is two-rounded at 30.81% true hit

Marcia is three-rounded at 6.66 true hit

You forget that Marcia can use Swords at promotion. ;)

Lv 4 Steel Bow Sniper has 22 Atk/108 Hit.

Soren is three-rounded at 78.55% true hit

FG Marcia is four-rounded at 62% true hit

Marcia is two-rounded at 62% true hit

Lv 16 Elfire Mage has 19 Atk/106 Hit.

Soren takes 0 damage.

Marcia is seven-rounded at 58% true hit, survives 12 rounds.

Alright, so Soren is winning in durability only against Magic.

The Sniper has more Movement than Soren and the Fighter equal Movement. His 1-2 range means little on the Enemy's Phase when the enemies are still attacking him. Marcia wins durability. The terrain indeed doesn't matter much, either. A typical forest gives 10 Avoid and 1 Defense, and there are far too few to improve Soren's durability regularly.

Staves are always nice, but more likely that not a great bonus. By the time Soren can use Staves, all the Paladins and Ike are just about immortal due to Sol, Aether, and supports (Ike gains 40 Avoid from Oscar A, Titania B ^_^). And in the case of a need to heal, Mist/Rhys already can use all Staves except for Fortify and Ashera's Staff. Soren isn't gaining a level lead.

Bows are a huge threat to Marcia. Like I said above, Marcia is two-rounded at 62% true hit. That's a 38% chance of getting killed in two rounds right there, which sucks hard. Sure, she gains 20 Avo from A Tanith/B Kieran, but that means she still has a 26% true chance of getting hit, which is still a 7% chance of getting killed. Besides, lv 21 Marcia won't have that 20 Avo boost yet anyway.

As for the Full Guard, it does not eliminate Marcia's weakness to bows, since it isn't there all the time and other units want it as well (lolReyson). It is and will always be a problem that Marcia has and that Soren has not.

What's more to say... Soren has uber healing utility. You can't deny that healing is incredibly useful. When Soren hits C staves, he'll be able to use the uber Physic staves, which grant him ~1 level per five uses. Heck, staves give him an own exp pool of which nobody else can draw exp from. Massive win. And no, Soren won't get knives >_<

Also, him getting exp from healing benefits the entire team more, since he allows others to take the kill Soren could've taken, Soren increases the team's overall durability and Soren gains more exp from healing than from fighting. 22 exp from Physic > any cexp Soren will get.

Marcia is the only candidate for the Full Guard. Tanith doesn't even have to be in combat and just in support range half the time, using Reinforce. Otherwise, she has Reyson A, Marcia B to increase Avoid by 25%, so it's not like Tanith is dying. Reyson prefers the Knight Ward, and Janaff and Ulki suck. Jill tanks everything, so it's not like she'll need the Guard. So Marcia gets the Full Guard.

If Marcia is weak to Bows, Soren has a weakness to...anything physical. Unlike our beautiful girl, however, Soren can't fix that with an item. He has to be shielded just to survive.

Even if Soren is healing, that opens another weakness; he's not attacking. Just slightly healing wastes an attack. Not killing the enemies means it takes longer to complete the chapter, and such gaining less BEXP. Healing a level-up HP 'wound' does increase Soren's experience, but hurts the entire team's BEXP.

On Physic, Soren will not use them. There's about 3 for the entire game before the final chapter. Rhys and Mist are both much better off using them early to gain levels faster. Otherwise, they'll be waiting in Storage, benefitting no-one until Soren wastes 23 turns getting to C rank.

Now, I also expect some kind of attack on their mobility.

Sure, Marcia's mov > Soren's mov, and sure, more mov > less mov, but that doesn't make the difference between the two of them fighting or not fighting. Soren will be fighting just as much. Besides, as I've shown, Marcia doesn't exactly have good durability, which means she won't even be flying away as much as you might think. Not towards groups of enemies, at least.

Also, Soren's attacking range is just as big as your other character's anyway. He has 1-2 range, remember? 7 range right there, as well as the possibilty of attacking from 12 different spaces, as opposed to lol4 or 8.

Oh yeah, Soren fails earlygame, right?

Lv 9 Soren has 11 Mag/11 Spd, while Lv 5 Marcia has 8 Str/11 Spd. They'll feature the same Atk, but Soren has 1-2 range and hits Res. The winner is indeed Soren.

Is Tino the Tiger some sort of wizard? Something Soren wants to be? ;)

Marcia can fly into enemies and attack them without waiting for the Enemy's Phase. Soren has really bad Movement. If he wants to fight, you'll have to wait for Soren to move close enough. Besides, Marcia can also throw Javelins at the enemy and fly back into safety while still dealing damage. Her early-game durability problems aren't too bad.

Hand Axe Boyd has 8 range. All the mounted guys have 9 range; 10 with Javelins or what-not. He's really only tying with Ike and Zihark. The different attack positions again, don't matter except for a few later stages. Where it's important to attack indirectly (early-mid games), enemy density per area is pretty low. Most come in groups of three-seven, so Soren doesn't have a huge advantage against those direct Sword guys.

Soren is unlikely to be at level 9 by Chapter 9. Soren joins at level 1 at Chapter 4. From the start, he can't really be used for much combat, considering his base 18 HP, 16% Avoid, and 2 Defense. Even with indirect attacking, there's not enough situtations where Soren can attack without being two-rounded. Level 6 seems more appropriate.

Lv 6 Soren w/ Fire has 12 Attack, 7 AS, and 17% Avoid. He doesn't look so good now, right?

Now for my final point, Marcia is unique in this way; utility. For example, the upper-right village in Chapter 11 cannot be visited with anyone but Marcia. She can fly in, visit the village, and fly out of the Myrmidon's way. So Marcia is gaining an item while keeping BEXP. Marcia can fly around and rescue injured characters until they're out of enemy range, and go visit villages. Soren isn't rescuing most characters, and his Movement is too low to visit villages. Marcia can gain huge CEXP in Chapter 12 by attacking the Raven's with a Laguz Lance, while Soren has to be protected the entire chapter just to fight. Marcia has several utilities that Soren cannot do.

And now I'm getting tired of typing. Massive tl;dr, I know, and I'm sorry :(

Anyway, Soren > Marcia

Your turn ;)

It's fine, I'm sorry for bashing Soren so much. :( Besides, a long debate is more fun, right?

Marcia<Soren

You go now! ^_^

[Tino]

But first, I must point out the obvious. Marcia is a girl, Soren is a boy. Yet Marcia is the one who's flying around and stabbing guys with her pokey spear of death. Soren hides behind Ike to make little breezes and hopes that will distract the enemy enough so he can run away like a coward. Marcia scares her older and very manly brother Makalov into recruitment. Soren is torn apart by everything he can't jump out of the way. And that's everything. As such, our pink-haired beauty Marcia is manlier than an actual man. You suck, Soren.

Soren is an actual man, like you said. Men can use women like Marcia for great justice. Sweet.

Which is true critical and activations 9.03% and 9.9%. That's not good.

Huh? I don't know where you got that from. Let me tell you how I came to the conclusion that Soren has a ~60% chance of activating at least something in a double attack (he'll practically always be doubling stuff.

0.78 * 0.78 * 0.79 * 0.79 * 100 = 37.970244 = ~38

100 - 38 = 62, thus a 60% chance or more to activate something (it won't drop below 60 even with enemy Luck factored in, believe me).

Oh yeah, the 0.78 and 0.79 are Soren's chance of not landing a critical hit or not activating Adept respectively.

Generals and Warriors have 48-58 HP by late-game, so Soren is two-rounding even with their lolresistance. Paladins and Swordmasters all have enough AS to avoid being one-rounded, too. Decent offense, but not excellent.

L20/15 Elthunder Soren has 36 Atk and 21 AS plus 23 Crt (~18 with enemy Luck) and 27% Adept, which is a ~65% chance to activate something, which is nearly 2/3, which is a lot. L20/15 Silver Lance/Sword Marcia has 38/36 Atk and 27 AS.

Max level enemy HP/Def/Res/AS combinations.

L15 Sniper: 37 HP/16 Def/11 Res/19 AS

L7 Berserker: 44 HP/13 Def/3 Res/17 AS

L13 Cat: 45 HP/19 Def/10 Res/21 AS

L17 Dragon: 60 HP/34 Def/26 Res/22 AS

L15 Warrior: 53 HP/15 Def/10 Res/18 AS

L16 General: 44 HP/28 Def/15 Res/11 AS

L13 Sage: 34 HP/12 Def/21 Res/16 AS (Bolganone)

L17 Swordmaster: 41 HP/13 Def/9 Res/24 AS

L15 Bishop: 36 HP/7 Def/28 Res/13 AS (Shine)

L15 Halberdier: 44 HP/17 Def/11 Res/17 AS

L9 Thief: 21 HP/4 Def/1 Res/14 AS (massive lolz)

L16 Tiger: 49 HP/23 Def/10 Res/19 AS

L16 Paladin: 42 HP/20 Def/14 Res/20 AS

L17 Wyvern Lord: 47 HP/26 Def/7 Res/16 AS

Soren has a 65% chance to kill the Sniper, Marcia one-rounds no matter what.

Both one-round the Berserker no matter what.

Marcia two-rounds the Cat. So does Soren... aight. Bolganone Soren can pretty much equal Marcia in damage output, by the way. And he has a good chance of killing. Soren wins.

Lol at Marcia dealing 8 damag per round, thus eight-rounding. Soren has doubled Mt against this dood, and he can switch to Thoron (20 AS, so he still won't get doubled) for 6 more Atk than with Elthunder. Soren deals 17/23 damage, and thus two/three-rounds. Not to mention that Soren has 65% chance to two-round or even one-round this dood as well.

Both two-round, since Soren has just as big a chance to have 28 Mag as 27 Mag (which is his average Mag at 20/15. And then Soren has a 65% chance to one-round as well, granting him quite a good win.

Soren again one-rounds if he has that +1 Mag, which is not very unlikely, while Marcia is only three-rounding. Go Soren!

Soren kills Sages with WTA and that +1 Mag, so both are equal (and if Soren doesn't have that +1 Mag, he can still kill with a Crit or Adept).

Both two-round the Swordmaster, but Soren has a much better chance to actually kill, so he wins.

Eh... Soren fails against Bishops. Point for Marcia, woot!

Both one-round the Halberdier, since Marcia has a decent chance to have +1 Str.

Lolz at the Thief.

Marcia deals 30 damage per round to the Tiger. Soren deals 37 with Bolganone (29 with Elfire) and he can actually kill (I keep saying this...), so Soren wins again.

Both two-round the Paladin and, again, since Soren can kill, he wins.

Lol @ Wyvern Lord. Marcia deals a pathetic 12 damage per hit, so she barely two-rounds (-1 Str means she stops two-round and three-rounds instead, oh snap) and Soren one-rounds no matter what, so he wins.

As you can see, Soren has much, much better offense due to his Crt and Adept, and then I didn't even mention his instant 1-2 range yet. Soren easily better, even endgame where he isn't continuously doubling things.

With what weapon? Steel Lance Marcia DAs the Fighters and two-rounds them, dealing 40 damage. Knights can be killed with the Heavy Spear, and the Myrmidons are two-rounded. Archers are DA'd and killed by Steel Lance. Not like Soren's doing any better. He may target Resistance, but the only tomes available are basics and his AS at level 20/2 w/ Wind is 18; two lower than Marcia's.

That was with an Iron Lance, yes, but I was already incredibly generous when I said she would be promoted by Ch 17.1, so giving her Steel would be even more generous. She would more likely be something like 18/0, which means she won't be doing what you imply, even with Steel Lance.

And 18 AS = 18 AS (duh...), since Marcia isn't truly promoted.

And no, not only basic tomes are available. Elwind, Elfire and Elthunder are all buyable at that point in the game (or the chapter before it).

Marcia also has Silver Weapons soon enough.

Indeed. Chapter 23 or so will grant her the use of Silver Lance, unless she hasn't reached A in lances yet, which I highly doubt. As I've shown above, Silver Lance doesn't help her much at all, though.

But 23 is not quite the definition of "soon", since that's about 5 or 6 chapters after her promotion.

Now Soren's list is worthless. Ike wants Oscar and Titania too much to bother with Soren, and Stefan support is far too slow. Also, he can get Mordecai A which gives epic bonuses. Soren's getting only Stefan B.

Moar liek B Ike/A Stefan. Now that you mentioned Stefan, I didn't even include him in any of my comparisons. I must say I totally forgot about him :o That gives him +1 Atk and +7 Avo extra. Sweet.

Why do so many debates revolve around supports?

Indeed, Marcia will get Kieran and Tanith, I won't argue that one.

Let's look at Soren's proposed supports.

A Stefan

Stefan has two support options, Soren and Mordecai.

Soren 4/9/12, +1 Atk/+7 Avo/+15 Hit

Mordecai 2/4/11, +1 Atk/+1 Def/+15 Hit

7 Avo vs. 1 Def is fairly debatable, I suppose, since it can definitely make a difference when it comes to getting hit (the 7 Avo), and Mordecai with his 9 Mov has a good chance to not be near Stefan, while Soren and Stefan are much more likely to be near eachother, and Soren support will give Stefan reliable Avo very quickly. Stefan's Def is reliable enough the way it is, so he prefers Avo a lot more than Def.

B Ike

This seems to be the main problem. That's why I'll look at Ike's other support options compared to B Soren.

B Titania finishes a bit earlier than B Soren, but also gives pathetic bonuses. 10 Avo, 1 Def and 5 Hit vs. 15 Avo and 1 Atk. Ike doesn't need Def and Hit at all, while extra offense is always nice. Ike doesn't need that Def because of uber Avo. 10 Avo <<< 15 Avo + 1 Atk.

B Oscar won't ever happen, since Ike has A Oscar XD

B Lethe finishes a good deal later than Soren and gives pathetic bonuses (not to mention that Lethe isn't all that great anyway). 15 Avo + 1 Atk >>> 10 Avo, since +10 Hit is unnecessary for Ike.

B Reyson... This is a possibility, and it will definitely help Reyson, but it doesn't help Ike more than B Soren. 15 Avo + 1 Atk > 10 Avo + 1 Atk, and B Reyson ends pretty late as well compared to B Soren. Not happening.

B Ranulf fails a lot. 15 Avo + 1 Atk > 15 Avo + 5 Hit, and Ranulf sucks, and the support finishes very late.

B Elincia is pretty much the same as B Lethe, except it's even worse.

Soren getting B Ike is easily happening.

Now Soren's list is worthless. Ike wants Oscar and Titania too much to bother with Soren, and Stefan support is far too slow. Also, he can get Mordecai A which gives epic bonuses. Soren's getting only Stefan B.

Nah, not really. Elthunder is buyable in Ch. 16, and can thus easily be used in Ch. 17 and onwards (there's also some Elthunder drops after Ch. 17, if I'm correct, and there are more chapters with buyable and stealable Elthunders).

Thunder Soren deals 11 damage and DAs the enemy, with true 8.2% Adept and .55% Critical. A supportless Steel Lance Marcia deals 11 damage and DAs. So they’re pretty equal.

Again, lolwut?

Soren has a 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.83 * 0.83 * 100 = 55% chance to not activate something, which is a 45% chance to at leats activate something. Where the hell do you get 8.2 and 0.55 from?

Marcia can use a Laguz Lance for the same effectiveness. Effectiveness against Wyverns is indeed a positive for Soren, but that can prove a hindrance defensively. A level 18 Steel Lance Wyvern Rider has about 109% Hit and 33 Attack. Level 20/3 Soren w/ Wind and Stefan C has 43% Avoid, 32 HP, and 7 Defense. The Wyvern hits at true 77.22% on Soren, dealing 26 damage. Also, Wyvern Riders tend to attack in groups. So even if Soren kills one Rider, another will come and kill him easily.

Level 20/3 Marcia w/ Kieran B, Tanith C has 52% Avoid, 33 HP, and 14 Defense. The Wyvern hits Marcia at true hit 63.45%, dealing 19 damage. Both Sore and Marcia are two-rounded, but Marcia’s higher Avoid gives her a better chance of surviving.

With that B Ike he'll have 58 Avo, which means they have ~52% true hit on him. 52.47% to be exact, but it all comes down to the same, Soren's durability is superior to Marcia's.

And if Soren dies to groups of Wyvern Riders, then so is Marcia, and she has a ~40% chance of getting killed in two hits, which is pretty bad. Soren has a ~27% chance to get killed in two hits, which is still pretty bad, but significantly better than Marcia.

Marcia can bring out a Silver Lance and with Kieran B, one-rounds the Wyvern.

That early, Silver Lance aren't buyable yet, so she indeed doesn't one-round.

Except Marcia can spam Steel and later Silvers for the entire game

True, to an extent, since Marcia won't be able to spam Steel and Silver for a good time due to her sucking with them early on (Steel) or them not existing for a good deal of the game (Silver).

And Soren can spam Physics for massive experience and benefiting the team's overall durability, which is just as good.

1-2 constant range is always nice, but not as massive of a benefit as you make. Countering the additional Archer or Javelin Wyvern Rider is a small point on the Enemy's phase. It's safe to say most enemies are Loldiers/Lolberdiers, Pony Knights, and Fighters, usually using Steel weapons. So Soren is only avoiding attacks on the Player's phase. Once the enemies come, they will target Soren first. Even with counter-avoidance, Soren has lol durability. The enemy naturally targets the weakest character, and that's Soren.

You can't just say that there are only a few of them, since they do exist, and against them he has an incredibly significant advantage due to reasons explained above in my first post (no player phase counters, no enemy phase attacks).

Marcia has Short Spears, three Spears, and a Flame Lance.

Wut? Short Spears and Spears are very rare, and she's not guaranteed to use them. Not to mention that they only have very few uses. And don't even come to me with Flame Lance crap. Marcia fails epicly with it, unless 18 Atk endgame is good all of a sudden :/

Javelins are Marcia's only good option for 1-2 range.

There's no reason to keep weapons just because they're rare. Marcia can use the few Short Spears if need be. Or she can just use the Steel Lance as previously mentioned.

Indeed, but there's only a grand total of 3 Short Spears and 3 Spears, or something similar. At least there aren't more than 6 of them combined, I'm fairly sure of that.

Since all have only 15 uses, and Marcia isn't the only one using them, she can get 15 uses of the 90. That's not going to help her at all.

And how many magic users are there? Not many, especially compared the greater amount of Loldiers/Pony Knights/Fighters. His Resistance doesn't matter nearly as much as Marcia's Defense leads

Except that Soren has superior durablity against physical enemies as well, as proven in my first post. Superior to magic and physical > Nothing

Staves are always nice, but more likely that not a great bonus. By the time Soren can use Staves, all the Paladins and Ike are just about immortal due to Sol, Aether, and supports (Ike gains 40 Avoid from Oscar A, Titania B ). And in the case of a need to heal, Mist/Rhys already can use all Staves except for Fortify and Ashera's Staff. Soren isn't gaining a level lead.

Wut?

You're implying that Healing + Attack isn't all that great, but that's not true at all. There's always those very small wounds that need to be healed, there's always those 1 HP wounds from level ups that need to be healed, there's always SOMEONE who needs to be healed, and Soren, Rhys and Mist are equally likely to get that heal. The good thing about Soren is, if he can't get that heal for 11/12/17 experience, then he can kill something to still gain experience. Marcia can only attack, which is not going to happen every turn, even with her movement. Soren gains experience every turn, while Marcia does not. Soren will indeed actually gain a level lead.

Marcia is the only candidate for the Full Guard. Tanith doesn't even have to be in combat and just in support range half the time, using Reinforce. Otherwise, she has Reyson A, Marcia B to increase Avoid by 25%, so it's not like Tanith is dying. Reyson prefers the Knight Ward, and Janaff and Ulki suck. Jill tanks everything, so it's not like she'll need the Guard. So Marcia gets the Full Guard.

Tanith obviously does want to be near your other characters, since she also wants to be gaining levels, which requires her to be in combat, which means there are bow doods which might attack her. And indeed, she has massive Avo, but that doesn't eliminate her weakness against bows (which generally have high accuracy, so Tanith isn't even avoiding all that often, although she indeed avoids more often than not).

Reyson prefers the Knight Ward? That's the biggest load of bull I've ever heard, seriously. There's Brom who wants it, or Devdan, Tauroneo or even Geoffrey or I don't know who... But most importantly, Reyson can't even use it, and since Reyson is incredibly frail, he really wants as much durability boosts as he can get, and the Full Guard offers that. It'll prevent him from getting one-rounded, which is much more important than Marcia being prevented from getting two-rounded.

Indeed, Janaff and Ulki suck. Jill indeed has good Def, but that doesn't mean archers won't be able to deal damage to Jill. Steel Bows have 18 Atk against Jill without taking enemy Str into account, and 20/15 Jill has 22 Def (24/25 with B/A Mist if she gets that). That isn't enough to prevent jill from taking damage. She definitely wants to use the Full Guard, since a 9 Atk enemy without taking Str into account is not dangerous and might indeed deal no damage. The same applies to Haar.

In other words, Marcia is not guaranteed to get the Full Guard at all. In fact, she likely won't use it at all after the start of Ch. 18, so she has a 50% chance to use it in Ch. 16 and 17, which means she'll make use of it for a grand total of 1 chapter in the entire game... Not making any significant difference at all.

If Marcia is weak to Bows, Soren has a weakness to...anything physical. Unlike our beautiful girl, however, Soren can't fix that with an item. He has to be shielded just to survive.

Not really. His Avo is realiably, and he'll never suffer any WTD that has negative effects to it when it comes to taking damage, since enemy magic users fail to deal damage to Soren, and Soren can't have WTD against physical enemies.

Even if Soren is healing, that opens another weakness; he's not attacking. Just slightly healing wastes an attack. Not killing the enemies means it takes longer to complete the chapter, and such gaining less BEXP. Healing a level-up HP 'wound' does increase Soren's experience, but hurts the entire team's BEXP.

No. There are more than enough fighters available, so healing one turn is not hurting at all.

On Physic, Soren will not use them. There's about 3 for the entire game before the final chapter. Rhys and Mist are both much better off using them early to gain levels faster. Otherwise, they'll be waiting in Storage, benefitting no-one until Soren wastes 23 turns getting to C rank.

There are a good amount of Physics you can steal.

Chapter 15 has a Physic.

Chapter 16 has a Physic.

Chapter 17 has a Physic.

Chapter 20 has a Physic.

Chapter 21 has a Physic.

Chapter 23 has a Physic.

Chapter 25 has a Physic.

Chapter 26 has a Physic.

Chapter 27 has a Physic.

Endgame has buyable Physics.

And that's not even all the Physics I've listed, and this list contains Physics that can be found AND stolen, but there's a lot more Physics that can be stolen from enemies, so there are more than enough for Soren to use, and there are definitely more Physics than you said. There's at least 10 of them.

Is Tino the Tiger some sort of wizard? Something Soren wants to be? ;)

;)

Marcia can fly into enemies and attack them without waiting for the Enemy's Phase. Soren has really bad Movement. If he wants to fight, you'll have to wait for Soren to move close enough. Besides, Marcia can also throw Javelins at the enemy and fly back into safety while still dealing damage. Her early-game durability problems aren't too bad.

And a Javelin gives her, what? Oh yeah, I know. 14 Atk and 8 AS. That's about right for Chapter 1, since that's around what Oscar has, but Marcia is almost as pathetic as Rolf with her Javelin, since she has only 1 more Atk and still doesn't double frequently. So on offense, she's nearly on par with base Rolf. Fail.

Also, assuming she needs 6/7 Mov to get to the enemy, she'll have 1/2 Mov left to move back, which is usually not enough, and then she indeed has fairly crappy durability. And if she would need only 4/5 Mov for 3/4 Mov left after attacking, then she will need 6/7 Mov the next turn, which means she'll still be vulnerable to enemy attacks. 20 HP/8 Def in Ch. 9 is pretty bad.

"But Soren's is worse!"

1-2 range; enough said.

And because he has 5 Mov and doesn't need to be at the front to attack and kill things, it's easy for him to remain in the backline.

Hand Axe Boyd has 8 range. All the mounted guys have 9 range; 10 with Javelins or what-not. He's really only tying with Ike and Zihark. The different attack positions again, don't matter except for a few later stages. Where it's important to attack indirectly (early-mid games), enemy density per area is pretty low. Most come in groups of three-seven, so Soren doesn't have a huge advantage against those direct Sword guys.

What's this all about?

Soren is unlikely to be at level 9 by Chapter 9. Soren joins at level 1 at Chapter 4. From the start, he can't really be used for much combat, considering his base 18 HP, 16% Avoid, and 2 Defense. Even with indirect attacking, there's not enough situtations where Soren can attack without being two-rounded. Level 6 seems more appropriate.

Soren gains experience faster due to a lower level, can indeed be protected easily without reducing efficiency and thus won't be two-rounded often.

There are two Defend chapters with tons of enemies, and Soren is safely hiding behind your characters, since there are only few enemies with a 2 range option, Soren won't get two-rounded. And even if there are two 2 range enemies able to attack Soren, Soren isn't killing by himself, so he won't face two attacks on the same turn.

Chapter 4 is fairly hard for Soren to get kills in, but there are definitely opportunities for Soren to get a kill without getting killed, since the first few turns are the only hard ones. After turn 3 (perhaps turn 4) it's very safe to use Soren again.

Chapter 6 has some small paths and such, and it's thus fairly easy to protect Soren. He won't get attacked twice often, if at all. He's not going to be dying.

Chapter 7 is an indoor map with many small hallways, making it very easy for Soren to stay behind your frontliners.

Soren has no problems at all, except for in his joining chapter, and he's possibly one of your best characters in the Defend chapters. Also, there's 1 chapter of BEXP for Soren, so he can easily be 9/0, especially by the time Marcia actually joins (since she joins very late in the chapter) since he'll be able to obtain some experience in that chapter as well.

Now for my final point, Marcia is unique in this way; utility. For example, the upper-right village in Chapter 11 cannot be visited with anyone but Marcia. She can fly in, visit the village, and fly out of the Myrmidon's way. So Marcia is gaining an item while keeping BEXP. Marcia can fly around and rescue injured characters until they're out of enemy range, and go visit villages. Soren isn't rescuing most characters, and his Movement is too low to visit villages. Marcia can gain huge CEXP in Chapter 12 by attacking the Raven's with a Laguz Lance, while Soren has to be protected the entire chapter just to fight. Marcia has several utilities that Soren cannot do.

As for the village, yes, that's true. Marcia will most likely get that one. Woot for one massive village.

As for other villages, sure, Marcia is much better for that.

But then comes the rescuing. That actually does not go to Marcia. Marcia is taking away two possible combat units, namely herself and the character she's rescuing. Soren can move in and heal the character Marcia would have to rescue, which means you don't sacrifice as much. You sacrifice nothing at all, in fact, since Soren's gaining experience as well, and two other characters, Marcia and the healed character, will also be able to gain more experience through fighting or by doing something completely different. Point is, healing > rescuing.

I suppose Marcia can be 8/0 or 9/0 or something by Chapter 12.

8/0 Laguz Lance Marcia

33 Atk, 5 AS, 95 Hit -- 22 HP, 9 Def, 15 Avo

3 Beak Raven

17 Atk, 14 AS, 112 Hit -- 29 HP, 11 Def, 28 Avo

Marcia deals 22/29 damage at 78.55% true hit and will thus miss more than 20% of the time, which is not a good thing at all. Marcia takes 16/22 damage at 99.85% true hit, so she'll practically get hit all the time. One more attack will kill her. It's not safe to send her to the Ravens on her own at all.

So Marcia's only significant advantage is her ability to rescue villages. Soren also has some significant advantages, namely instant 1-2 range and the ability to heal things.

It's fine, I'm sorry for bashing Soren so much. Besides, a long debate is more fun, right?

Marcia<Soren

You go now!

Doesn't matter. And sure, longer = better because it's much more interesting to read, no?

Soren <3 Marcia

Wait, what?

Your turn <3

EDIT: Everything that went uncountered was because it were stat comparisons that depended on that B Ike support. With it, Soren wins, and without it, it's arguable, since I forgot to mention Stefan in my first comparisons (silly me :P).

Edited November 25, 2008 by Tino

[Swordsalmon]

Soren is an actual man, like you said. Men can use women like Marcia for great justice. Sweet.

Except that Soren is a feminine pansy, while Marcia is actually tough. Marcia uses men like Soren for great justice. You still suck, Soren.

Huh? I don't know where you got that from. Let me tell you how I came to the conclusion that Soren has a ~60% chance of activating at least something in a double attack (he'll practically always be doubling stuff.

0.78 * 0.78 * 0.79 * 0.79 * 100 = 37.970244 = ~38

100 - 38 = 62, thus a 60% chance or more to activate something (it won't drop below 60 even with enemy Luck factored in, believe me).

Oh yeah, the 0.78 and 0.79 are Soren's chance of not landing a critical hit or not activating Adept respectively.

Each attack by level 20/5 Soren w/ Elthunder has 9.03% Critical and 9.9% Adept activation. Adding together, a single attack has 18.93% chance of either activating, assuming the enemy has no Luck.

With a double attack, there's double chance of either activating, so Soren has a 37.86% activation rate.

L20/15 Elthunder Soren has 36 Atk and 21 AS plus 23 Crt (~18 with enemy Luck) and 27% Adept, which is a ~65% chance to activate something, which is nearly 2/3, which is a lot. L20/15 Silver Lance/Sword Marcia has 38/36 Atk and 27 AS.

Max level enemy HP/Def/Res/AS combinations.

L15 Sniper: 37 HP/16 Def/11 Res/19 AS

L7 Berserker: 44 HP/13 Def/3 Res/17 AS

L13 Cat: 45 HP/19 Def/10 Res/21 AS

L17 Dragon: 60 HP/34 Def/26 Res/22 AS

L15 Warrior: 53 HP/15 Def/10 Res/18 AS

L16 General: 44 HP/28 Def/15 Res/11 AS

L13 Sage: 34 HP/12 Def/21 Res/16 AS (Bolganone)

L17 Swordmaster: 41 HP/13 Def/9 Res/24 AS

L15 Bishop: 36 HP/7 Def/28 Res/13 AS (Shine)

L15 Halberdier: 44 HP/17 Def/11 Res/17 AS

L9 Thief: 21 HP/4 Def/1 Res/14 AS (massive lolz)

L16 Tiger: 49 HP/23 Def/10 Res/19 AS

L16 Paladin: 42 HP/20 Def/14 Res/20 AS

L17 Wyvern Lord: 47 HP/26 Def/7 Res/16 AS

Soren has a 65% chance to kill the Sniper, Marcia one-rounds no matter what.

Both one-round the Berserker no matter what.

Marcia two-rounds the Cat. So does Soren... aight. Bolganone Soren can pretty much equal Marcia in damage output, by the way. And he has a good chance of killing. Soren wins.

Lol at Marcia dealing 8 damag per round, thus eight-rounding. Soren has doubled Mt against this dood, and he can switch to Thoron (20 AS, so he still won't get doubled) for 6 more Atk than with Elthunder. Soren deals 17/23 damage, and thus two/three-rounds. Not to mention that Soren has 65% chance to two-round or even one-round this dood as well.

Both two-round, since Soren has just as big a chance to have 28 Mag as 27 Mag (which is his average Mag at 20/15. And then Soren has a 65% chance to one-round as well, granting him quite a good win.

Soren again one-rounds if he has that +1 Mag, which is not very unlikely, while Marcia is only three-rounding. Go Soren!

Soren kills Sages with WTA and that +1 Mag, so both are equal (and if Soren doesn't have that +1 Mag, he can still kill with a Crit or Adept).

Both two-round the Swordmaster, but Soren has a much better chance to actually kill, so he wins.

Eh... Soren fails against Bishops. Point for Marcia, woot!

Both one-round the Halberdier, since Marcia has a decent chance to have +1 Str.

Lolz at the Thief.

Marcia deals 30 damage per round to the Tiger. Soren deals 37 with Bolganone (29 with Elfire) and he can actually kill (I keep saying this...), so Soren wins again.

Both two-round the Paladin and, again, since Soren can kill, he wins.

Lol @ Wyvern Lord. Marcia deals a pathetic 12 damage per hit, so she barely two-rounds (-1 Str means she stops two-round and three-rounds instead, oh snap) and Soren one-rounds no matter what, so he wins.

As you can see, Soren has much, much better offense due to his Crt and Adept, and then I didn't even mention his instant 1-2 range yet. Soren easily better, even endgame where he isn't continuously doubling things.

Soren's True critical and Adept rate at level 20/15 is 11.76 for Critical (6.66% with enemy Luck) and 27.85% Adept, which is for one attack 39.61%. His activations for a double attack is 79.22%, which is indeed reliable. However, the enemies Soren is doubling (Except the Sage) will be one-rounded anyways, while the enemies like Swordmasters and Warriors are still more likely than not being two-rounded.

If Soren can use Bolganone on the Cat, Marcia can use a Laguz Lance and one-round it. Win for Marcia.

So Soren wins against the Dragon. There's like, five in the entire game anyways. XD Also, Laguz Lance Marcia three-rounds it. Either way, the Dragon has around 45 Attack, so Soren is dropped to 1 HP, while Marcia if left with 12.

Soren wins against Generals, Wyvern Lords, Paladins, and Warriors.

Marcia always one-rounds the Sage, while Soren two-rounds unless he activates Adept or gets a Critical. Looks like a win for Marcia.

Offensively, Soren wins. However, the Swordmaster has a better chance of actually killing Soren than Marcia. Unless the Swordmaster is killed by Soren (Which is again unlikely, given 39.61% activation rates), he'll have a much higher chance of injuring Soren with his 64% Avoid and 9 Defense, in comparison to Marcia's 102% Avoid and 18 Defense.

Yayz, Marcia has some wins. ^_^

Marcia has a good chance of having +1 Strength at level 20/15, and with Laguz Lance one-rounds the Tiger.

So, Soren does overall win offensively. However, Marcia actually has more opportunities to fight. She has an attack range of 10 with direct weapons, while Soren has only 8 attack range. Also, Marcia can fly and re-move, the latter which increases durability by attacking then flying away. She's fighting and helping the team offensively more than Soren.

That was with an Iron Lance, yes, but I was already incredibly generous when I said she would be promoted by Ch 17.1, so giving her Steel would be even more generous. She would more likely be something like 18/0, which means she won't be doing what you imply, even with Steel Lance.

And 18 AS = 18 AS (duh...), since Marcia isn't truly promoted.

And no, not only basic tomes are available. Elwind, Elfire and Elthunder are all buyable at that point in the game (or the chapter before it).

If Soren is promoting at Chapter 17, Marcia is also more than likely. Soren is level 6 by Marcia's joining. He's getting little experience at joining due to being two-rounded by the enemies that don't one-shot him, and the four-turn limit. In Chapter 8, the Archers and Weapon Knights destroy him, and then Soren gets about five levels from BEXP/CEXP in the other chapters. So he'll be only about a level more by Chapter 9. So if Marcia is at level 18, Soren will be around the same level or level 19.

Steel Lances can be bought in Chapter 17.

Indeed. Chapter 23 or so will grant her the use of Silver Lance, unless she hasn't reached A in lances yet, which I highly doubt. As I've shown above, Silver Lance doesn't help her much at all, though.

But 23 is not quite the definition of "soon", since that's about 5 or 6 chapters after her promotion.

You get a Silver Lance in Chapter 16, and I believe a second in Chapter 18. It's a benefit regardless.

Moar liek B Ike/A Stefan. Now that you mentioned Stefan, I didn't even include him in any of my comparisons. I must say I totally forgot about him :o That gives him +1 Atk and +7 Avo extra. Sweet.

Why do so many debates revolve around supports?

Indeed, Marcia will get Kieran and Tanith, I won't argue that one.

Let's look at Soren's proposed supports.

A Stefan

Stefan has two support options, Soren and Mordecai.

Soren 4/9/12, +1 Atk/+7 Avo/+15 Hit

Mordecai 2/4/11, +1 Atk/+1 Def/+15 Hit

7 Avo vs. 1 Def is fairly debatable, I suppose, since it can definitely make a difference when it comes to getting hit (the 7 Avo), and Mordecai with his 9 Mov has a good chance to not be near Stefan, while Soren and Stefan are much more likely to be near eachother, and Soren support will give Stefan reliable Avo very quickly. Stefan's Def is reliable enough the way it is, so he prefers Avo a lot more than Def.

B Ike

This seems to be the main problem. That's why I'll look at Ike's other support options compared to B Soren.

B Titania finishes a bit earlier than B Soren, but also gives pathetic bonuses. 10 Avo, 1 Def and 5 Hit vs. 15 Avo and 1 Atk. Ike doesn't need Def and Hit at all, while extra offense is always nice. Ike doesn't need that Def because of uber Avo. 10 Avo <<< 15 Avo + 1 Atk.

B Oscar won't ever happen, since Ike has A Oscar XD

B Lethe finishes a good deal later than Soren and gives pathetic bonuses (not to mention that Lethe isn't all that great anyway). 15 Avo + 1 Atk >>> 10 Avo, since +10 Hit is unnecessary for Ike.

B Reyson... This is a possibility, and it will definitely help Reyson, but it doesn't help Ike more than B Soren. 15 Avo + 1 Atk > 10 Avo + 1 Atk, and B Reyson ends pretty late as well compared to B Soren. Not happening.

B Ranulf fails a lot. 15 Avo + 1 Atk > 15 Avo + 5 Hit, and Ranulf sucks, and the support finishes very late.

B Elincia is pretty much the same as B Lethe, except it's even worse.

Soren getting B Ike is easily happening.

Stefan A gives pretty awful bonuses and is extremely slow anyways. SorenxStefan A support is in effect from Chapter 27.

After people realized how epic Moulder was because of his supports. ;) They can seriously turn the favor to one character.

So Stefan's only option is Soren. Mordecai has so many superior options besides. Ilyana A, Mist B is considerably faster and gives 5 Defense and 3 Attack. And if Ilyana isn't in play, Stefan prefers Mordecai A for being faster and giving better bonuses. 1 Attack, 1 Defense>1 Attack, 15% Avoid. At end-game, level 20 Stefan with Mordecai A, Soren B has 73% Avoid and 17 Defense. Sounds better than just Soren A.

TitaniaxIke B is two chapters faster than IkexSoren B. So he's getting bonuses with Titania for more chapters than Soren. It's not exactly a huge benefit with Oscar support, as a level 15 Ike w/ Oscar A has 71% Avoid, but he'd prefer the 1 Defense while fighting Lance users than 1 Attack. There's no reason to wait for a Soren support with Ike.

If Ike isn't getting Titania B, he's still better with Reyson B. Ike doesn't really need the Avoid at that point, but Reyson considerably improves with Ike support. Tanith A, Ike B gives him 25% Avoid, which makes refreshing characters safer, improving five characters (Reyson and the four units he refreshes).

Nah, not really. Elthunder is buyable in Ch. 16, and can thus easily be used in Ch. 17 and onwards (there's also some Elthunder drops after Ch. 17, if I'm correct, and there are more chapters with buyable and stealable Elthunders).

Again, lolwut?

Soren has a 0.9 * 0.9 * 0.83 * 0.83 * 100 = 55% chance to not activate something, which is a 45% chance to at leats activate something. Where the hell do you get 8.2 and 0.55 from?

With Elthunder, Soren has 6.66% True critical and 5.95% Adept activation. With doubling, he has 25.22% of activating either a critical or Adept.

With that B Ike he'll have 58 Avo, which means they have ~52% true hit on him. 52.47% to be exact, but it all comes down to the same, Soren's durability is superior to Marcia's.

And if Soren dies to groups of Wyvern Riders, then so is Marcia, and she has a ~40% chance of getting killed in two hits, which is pretty bad. Soren has a ~27% chance to get killed in two hits, which is still pretty bad, but significantly better than Marcia.

Which he's not getting, so Soren's Avoid drops to 43%.

That early, Silver Lance aren't buyable yet, so she indeed doesn't one-round.

But there is one in Chapter 16 that no-one else but Oscar would use.

True, to an extent, since Marcia won't be able to spam Steel and Silver for a good time due to her sucking with them early on (Steel) or them not existing for a good deal of the game (Silver).

And Soren can spam Physics for massive experience and benefiting the team's overall durability, which is just as good.

Marcia can use Steel Lances by level 12 with a loss of 1 AS.

Though, she can always forge a stronger lance. Marcia has the option of forging Iron and Steel quickly, while Soren can only boost early tomes. Also, forged lances are cheaper. ^_^

Not until the final chapter. The first few Physics are better used by Mist and/or Rhys, who benefit much more from the quick Experience. Also, getting more Physics requires the deployment of a Theif to steal them. Soren can't even use Physic until he heals for 13 turns, which takes even longer considering his 6 Movement and most characters' lack of durability problems after promotion.

You can't just say that there are only a few of them, since they do exist, and against them he has an incredibly significant advantage due to reasons explained above in my first post (no player phase counters, no enemy phase attacks).

Because overall, they make up less a threat by being fewer around.

Only on the player phase does Soren avoid counters. All enemies but other magic-users have equal or more attack range than Soren, and can move in an attack him. As Soren has low concrete durability, enemies naturally target him.

Wut? Short Spears and Spears are very rare, and she's not guaranteed to use them. Not to mention that they only have very few uses. And don't even come to me with Flame Lance crap. Marcia fails epicly with it, unless 18 Atk endgame is good all of a sudden :/

Javelins are Marcia's only good option for 1-2 range.

Indeed, but there's only a grand total of 3 Short Spears and 3 Spears, or something similar. At least there aren't more than 6 of them combined, I'm fairly sure of that.

Since all have only 15 uses, and Marcia isn't the only one using them, she can get 15 uses of the 90. That's not going to help her at all.

Not that rare; you get 1 Short spear by pwning Emil and later another. Then the three Spears gives a grand total of 81 uses for Marcia’s ranged weapons. She has extremely little competition for them, too. Oscar might want a Short Spear until promotion, then he can use Hand Axes. Same with all the Paladins. The other Lance users are Brom, Gatrie, Nephenee, and Devdan; all which have issues with supports and/or stats and are unlikely to be played. Marcia has few problems with getting the high-end weapons. Also, the Flame Lance is an option against say, Generals with their low Magic. :/

If Marcia can’t get those ranged weapons, there’s again the option of Forging a Javelin. There is a lot of money in the game as-is, and a max Might Javelin does help quite a bit.

And on the subject of Forging, Marcia has a great advantage. Throughout the game, Marcia can forge Iron to eventually Silver Lances, as well Javelins. Soren has the option of only low-end Magic, which the highest Might (Thunder) can go up to 9. For example, level 8 Marcia w/ Forged Iron Lance max Might has 21 Attack, which is quite high. The cost is only 1744 Gold, which is quite affordable.

Except that Soren has superior durablity against physical enemies as well, as proven in my first post. Superior to magic and physical > Nothing

If he gets an Ike support, which isn’t happening. Marcia has more reliable durability because her supports are much more likely (Kieran A, Tanith B>Stefan A and rarely Ike B) and she can fly out of harm’s way.

Wut?

You're implying that Healing + Attack isn't all that great, but that's not true at all. There's always those very small wounds that need to be healed, there's always those 1 HP wounds from level ups that need to be healed, there's always SOMEONE who needs to be healed, and Soren, Rhys and Mist are equally likely to get that heal. The good thing about Soren is, if he can't get that heal for 11/12/17 experience, then he can kill something to still gain experience. Marcia can only attack, which is not going to happen every turn, even with her movement. Soren gains experience every turn, while Marcia does not. Soren will indeed actually gain a level lead.

Healing takes away from his time fighting, which is a negative. The chapters after 17 have fairly strict turn requirements for max BEXP.

Chapter 18:

Clear all enemies; 10 Turns.

Chapter 19:

Defeat boss; 9 Turns.

Chapter 20:

Arrive in location; 10 Turns.

Chapter 21:

Seize throne; 18 Turns.

Chapter 22:

Defeat boss; 12 Turns.

For a few examples. Of course, there are many enemies in all of them, so each fighter needs to be fighting more than just every few turns. Mist has higher Movement and both she and Rhys have Physic staffs when there’s a need to heal, so they have a greater likelihood of healing as-is. So Soren and his incredible offense need to fight and kill to stay within the turn requirements.

So Soren heals occasionally, if at all.

Tanith obviously does want to be near your other characters, since she also wants to be gaining levels, which requires her to be in combat, which means there are bow doods which might attack her. And indeed, she has massive Avo, but that doesn't eliminate her weakness against bows (which generally have high accuracy, so Tanith isn't even avoiding all that often, although she indeed avoids more often than not).

Reyson prefers the Knight Ward? That's the biggest load of bull I've ever heard, seriously. There's Brom who wants it, or Devdan, Tauroneo or even Geoffrey or I don't know who... But most importantly, Reyson can't even use it, and since Reyson is incredibly frail, he really wants as much durability boosts as he can get, and the Full Guard offers that. It'll prevent him from getting one-rounded, which is much more important than Marcia being prevented from getting two-rounded.

Indeed, Janaff and Ulki suck. Jill indeed has good Def, but that doesn't mean archers won't be able to deal damage to Jill. Steel Bows have 18 Atk against Jill without taking enemy Str into account, and 20/15 Jill has 22 Def (24/25 with B/A Mist if she gets that). That isn't enough to prevent jill from taking damage. She definitely wants to use the Full Guard, since a 9 Atk enemy without taking Str into account is not dangerous and might indeed deal no damage. The same applies to Haar.

In other words, Marcia is not guaranteed to get the Full Guard at all. In fact, she likely won't use it at all after the start of Ch. 18, so she has a 50% chance to use it in Ch. 16 and 17, which means she'll make use of it for a grand total of 1 chapter in the entire game... Not making any significant difference at all.

Tanith has to be within the three space range for her supports, and can Reinforce for her utility. With that, there’s the option of indirectly attacking with the Sonic Sword, Javelin, ect and fly back out of combat range. At base level with Reyson A, Marcia B, Tanith has 91% Avoid. Enough to reliably dodge just about every attack. Tanith doesn’t have as much use out of the Full Guard than Marcia.

I meant to say Knight’s Ring, sorry about that. Anyways, Reyson makes exceptional use of the Ring, as it allows him to re-move a character and still keep within the movement ranges or out of attack range.

Jill’s weakness to Bows is much less, as you said. Level 20/1 Jill w/ Mist B has 36 HP and 19 Defense, the former something you seemed to forget of. Her weakness to Bows is much less pronounced and isn’t of necessary consideration. If that 9 Attack enemy had an Iron Bow, for example, deals 2 damage to Jill.

Marcia makes much more use of the Full Guard than anyone else, as Tanith can avoid enemies and Jill has high enough Defense to lower damage very low.

Not really. His Avo is realiably, and he'll never suffer any WTD that has negative effects to it when it comes to taking damage, since enemy magic users fail to deal damage to Soren, and Soren can't have WTD against physical enemies.

Soren’s Avoid isn’t reliable when enemies have 100+% base Hit by Chapter 19.

No. There are more than enough fighters available, so healing one turn is not hurting at all.

Or he could fight and kill an enemy, making the chapter proceed that much faster. Healing when there’s the option of good offense, unless the character that would be healed is at low HP, is a detriment to team efficiency.

There are a good amount of Physics you can steal.

Chapter 15 has a Physic.

Chapter 16 has a Physic.

Chapter 17 has a Physic.

Chapter 20 has a Physic.

Chapter 21 has a Physic.

Chapter 23 has a Physic.

Chapter 25 has a Physic.

Chapter 26 has a Physic.

Chapter 27 has a Physic.

Endgame has buyable Physics.

And that's not even all the Physics I've listed, and this list contains Physics that can be found AND stolen, but there's a lot more Physics that can be stolen from enemies, so there are more than enough for Soren to use, and there are definitely more Physics than you said. There's at least 10 of them.

Nine Physics is not a lot for the entire game, and Soren is extremely unlikely to use one. Mist and Rhys obviously want to use them for the EXP benefits, and if Soren wants to use them, it’s only after spending 40 turns healing. So he might be able to use two Physics from Chapter 26-27 and then Endgame Physics, but that’s it.

The Physcs that can be stolen involve having to bring Volke or Sothe for that purpose. There’s little reason to field a mediocre fighter just to steal one staff every few chapters.

;)

;)

And a Javelin gives her, what? Oh yeah, I know. 14 Atk and 8 AS. That's about right for Chapter 1, since that's around what Oscar has, but Marcia is almost as pathetic as Rolf with her Javelin, since she has only 1 more Atk and still doesn't double frequently. So on offense, she's nearly on par with base Rolf. Fail.

Also, assuming she needs 6/7 Mov to get to the enemy, she'll have 1/2 Mov left to move back, which is usually not enough, and then she indeed has fairly crappy durability. And if she would need only 4/5 Mov for 3/4 Mov left after attacking, then she will need 6/7 Mov the next turn, which means she'll still be vulnerable to enemy attacks. 20 HP/8 Def in Ch. 9 is pretty bad.

"But Soren's is worse!"

1-2 range; enough said.

And because he has 5 Mov and doesn't need to be at the front to attack and kill things, it's easy for him to remain in the backline.

Unless you Forge a lighter Javelin. ;) It’s still an option to safely attack and fly off, which is still helping. Being able to attack and move in>move and possibly attack.

Marcia takes 6/7 Move to get near enemy, attacks, then moves 2/1 back, which helps her take fewer counters. Soren moves 5 spaces, attacks, avoids a counter, but has more of a chance of being attacked due to having a higher likelihood of being in enemy attack range.

If you’re in the backlines and can’t re-move, you aren’t attacking at all.

What's this all about?

That even with 1-2 magic range, his overall attack range is on-par with direct combat or even lower.

Soren gains experience faster due to a lower level, can indeed be protected easily without reducing efficiency and thus won't be two-rounded often.

There are two Defend chapters with tons of enemies, and Soren is safely hiding behind your characters, since there are only few enemies with a 2 range option, Soren won't get two-rounded. And even if there are two 2 range enemies able to attack Soren, Soren isn't killing by himself, so he won't face two attacks on the same turn.

Chapter 4 is fairly hard for Soren to get kills in, but there are definitely opportunities for Soren to get a kill without getting killed, since the first few turns are the only hard ones. After turn 3 (perhaps turn 4) it's very safe to use Soren again.

Chapter 6 has some small paths and such, and it's thus fairly easy to protect Soren. He won't get attacked twice often, if at all. He's not going to be dying.

Chapter 7 is an indoor map with many small hallways, making it very easy for Soren to stay behind your frontliners.

Soren has no problems at all, except for in his joining chapter, and he's possibly one of your best characters in the Defend chapters. Also, there's 1 chapter of BEXP for Soren, so he can easily be 9/0, especially by the time Marcia actually joins (since she joins very late in the chapter) since he'll be able to obtain some experience in that chapter as well.

Not really. :/

Soren isn’t guaranteed to have weakened enemies in the Defend chapters. Besides him, Ike, Oscar, and Boyd all want to get kills. There’s also Archers everywhere in the first Defend chapter and indirects on the three points in the latter.

Chapter 4 has loads of enemies, including several Archers. Soren can’t get near them without being two-rounded.

Chapter 5 has Archers with 80% Hit.

The left path has Knights which Soren two-rounds at best and the right path has Weapon Knights which will target him. Also, there’s only 9 turns to have everyone escape, so Soren can’t just safely hide behind others that need to escape as well.

Javelins to the west, Longbows to the east, and Hand Axes south. Soren can be hit just by trying to attack.

So Soren isn’t gaining much experience in the first few chapters, since he dies from all the indirects. He might gain 5-6 levels, but that’s all.

As for the village, yes, that's true. Marcia will most likely get that one. Woot for one massive village.

As for other villages, sure, Marcia is much better for that.

But then comes the rescuing. That actually does not go to Marcia. Marcia is taking away two possible combat units, namely herself and the character she's rescuing. Soren can move in and heal the character Marcia would have to rescue, which means you don't sacrifice as much. You sacrifice nothing at all, in fact, since Soren's gaining experience as well, and two other characters, Marcia and the healed character, will also be able to gain more experience through fighting or by doing something completely different. Point is, healing > rescuing.

I suppose Marcia can be 8/0 or 9/0 or something by Chapter 12.

8/0 Laguz Lance Marcia

33 Atk, 5 AS, 95 Hit -- 22 HP, 9 Def, 15 Avo

3 Beak Raven

17 Atk, 14 AS, 112 Hit -- 29 HP, 11 Def, 28 Avo

Marcia deals 22/29 damage at 78.55% true hit and will thus miss more than 20% of the time, which is not a good thing at all. Marcia takes 16/22 damage at 99.85% true hit, so she'll practically get hit all the time. One more attack will kill her. It's not safe to send her to the Ravens on her own at all.

So Marcia's only significant advantage is her ability to rescue villages. Soren also has some significant advantages, namely instant 1-2 range and the ability to heal things.

Which is a great advantage. Being able to rescue villages does give more items, helping the team. Soren doesn’t have enough Movement to do it as much.

What if there are farther enemies? Marcia can rescue some tanky character like Brom and drop him into several enemies, weakening most of them in the process. Or even better, she can rescue Ike and drop him on the gate or escape point.

This comes greatly handy in two particular chapters; 10 and 15. In the former, Marcia can rescue Ike and drop him to the NPCs and later the escape point, saving many more turns than having him walk. Chapter 15 would be nearly-impossible without Marcia. She’ll rescue Mordecai so he can recruit Stefan, then attract enemies from Muraim. So being essential in one chapter is a pretty huge benefit. Rescuing>healing.

You got me there.

Doesn't matter. And sure, longer = better because it's much more interesting to read, no?

Soren <3 Marcia

Wait, what?

Your turn <3

EDIT: Everything that went uncountered was because it were stat comparisons that depended on that B Ike support. With it, Soren wins, and without it, it's arguable, since I forgot to mention Stefan in my first comparisons (silly me ).

Indeed.

SorenxMarcia, the BEST NEW PAIRING EVER!!! ;)

You go now.

Stefan A only gives 7% Avoid; not enough to make a difference.

Sorry this took me so long, too.