Jotari Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) So Shadows of Valencia works pretty different to other games in its battle system. Namely how units have only one item slot yet still have a variety of abilities. This leads to some odities. Normally in Fire Emblem you attack a unit, and if they have a weapon equipped that can retaliate, they do so. But in Shadows of Valencia it's a bit inconsistent. That Celica. You attack her at one range, she counters with her sword (even if magic would deal more damage, I think). Attack her from two range sand she counters with fire. Attack her from three range and she doesn't counter at all despite having Lightning, a three range spell. So, what if instead of countering being this weird whatever the developers feel like thing, you could instead preset a unit's counter attack. So if I select lighting as Celica's counter, she'll always counter attack with lightning even at one range. Potentially doing less damage but for more versatility. It could extend to skills as well. Say giving my Saber Tigerstance as his counter. He'd deal a tonne of damage on enemy phase, but the HP cost for skills (which are rather negligible after a while) would build up to quickly put him in a lot of danger. I think this could potentially be a very fun system to work with. It'd give the player more tactical control over how enemy phase goes and make the HP cost for skills much more relevant. The only way I see it not working by being ported over to the base game would be for the Sword Skill that restores health or the windsweep skill that cancels a counter. But that could be worked around by simply not letting those skills be selectable as counter options. Edited April 22, 2019 by Jotari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair General Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Great way to break an already easy game, OP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 20 minutes ago, Armchair General said: Great way to break an already easy game, OP. That's pretty limited thinking. The game could be made harder you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair General Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Like making archers as defenseless as they're normally are? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cysx Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 I'm always up for more strategical options, especially easy to understand but potentially deep ones like this. Sounds great to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, Armchair General said: Like making archers as defenseless as they're normally are? Archers would have 1-5 range or 1-3 range without a bow like normal. I don't even know what you're talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayni Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 As a concept I do think there could be something here. I might not agree on the use of combat arts with it though and if I were limiting it to that the game has the issue of really only having that option for mages. It's a pretty basic layout as is: Use your lowest level spell if attacked (e.g. Fire) or your weapon. I think it is acceptable as is but if this were to be implemented it'd essentially have to be an option like item wherein you equip the skill you respond with I assume. It'd have the potential of being insane (See: Alm using Scendscale to attack from further range with the Falchion or Celica freely choosing Omega Ragnarock to respond to an enemy with on EP, though of course you'd likely be unable to counter if you didn't have enough HP). I'd even say Windsweep (if that's the combat art that prevents counters) would be even more powerful if you could use it to prevent an enemy from using their combat art (this kind of thing is why locking combat arts to weapons is a little sad to me personally. I'm not pretending it isn't an understandable limitation, just regrettable). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jotari Posted April 22, 2019 Author Share Posted April 22, 2019 I also find it quite regrettable skills are linked to weapons. So many cool and interesting combat arts that I just don't use because they're on weaker weapons. Although if combat skills could be used on enemy phase (the basics of this idea) I might consider using some of them more. Still, I think I'd rather some kind of capacity system like Radiant Dawn more than anything else when it comes to combat arts. Learn them using the weapon and one you've mastered them you can use them with any weapon but you can only equip a certain amount at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkwing Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Regarding magic at least, I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea, but it could have some issues. Namely, that most people would probably just select the weaker/cheaper spells anyway, as equipping any high level magic could result in a unit sacrificing much more HP than planned during the enemy phrase, which could lead to their untimely death and another use of the Turnwheel (which, granted, you get so many cogs that the issue is pretty easily fixed, but you can still burn through those quickly if you're not careful). The other solution I could think of, where you would pre-select the magic every battle, would get tedious fast, even if it allows for more versatility. I do wish that units with lightning could counterattack with it automatically, but that's something I can live with (and maybe that's there to prevent mages from spending HP you didn't want when archers attack them, regardless of whether or not you actually wanted them to counterattack). I disagree on having weapon skills be active during the enemy phrase, though. Fire Emblem has always had a problem with with the enemy phrase being more powerful than the player phase, and while weapon skills don't solve the issue, they do help make the latter more interesting. If nothing else, certain skills just plain wouldn't work well on the enemy phrase, either by being overpowered or by being unpredictable or expensive. Windsweep was already mentioned, as it prevents enemy attacks, but how would a skill like penetrate work? Would the unit be dashing every which way if they kill the enemy? And Scendscale and Ragnarok Omega, as powerful as they are, would drain Alm and Celicas HP fast if used repeatedly, and that's not something you want with the two characters that cause a game over when they die. Yes, some of these issues can be avoided with prudence and planning ahead, but that applies to just about every aspect of Fire Emblem. Again, I don't at all find this a bad idea, and I easily can see how it came about. I just think it would be more trouble than it's worth to implement considering most people would select "fireball" or "lightning" and be done with it, with the more fancy uses of the mechanic only appearing in unique situations. I disagree on implementing skills, though, as not all of them were designed with the enemy phrase in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Branniglenn Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) I think in general I'm open to more control over enemy phase in a fire emblem game. I'm always harping about how limited our information is to judge how an enemy phase will go. For instance, the lack of an aggro system forcing us to guess who would be attacked when it's not a strict science until you do something dumb like leave somebody in range who can't retaliate or somebody at 3 HP. We also have no idea the order enemy units will move, which can be especially pertinent. If the armor knight attacks first and survives, my unit survives. But if five weaker soldier enemies suicide on my front line before the armor knight attacks, my unit dies just due to sustaining too much damage and being a touch too powerful. I think in the case of echoes, this is only an issue with Alm and Celica/priestesses who can use multiple weapons, but it also commonly comes up in other games with regard to Bow knights who can only retaliate with their last used weapon unless you trade swap them to something more appropriate. Even then I'm sure many players were disappointed that the ranger or promoted nomad class won't automatically equip the proper weapon for retaliation. If the game prompted you which weapon/spell you wanted to use, that'd increase the player's control, but also slow down the gameplay - particularly for those that are mashing the start button to fade out all the gameplay. An additional setting in the options menu could turn off the prompt, but setting your method of counterattack could be a more elegant solution. Furthermore, Fire Emblem might benefit from the ability to tell units to not counterattack at all, like when it comes to keeping a unit alive you're trying to recruit. Most fire emblem games force you to have a weapon equipped as long as one exists in your inventory and that hinders their ability to create side objectives in which you don't kill enemy units. See also the bonus exp requirements in Tellius in which you want to keep some enemy units alive but they won't stop suiciding on you. Being able to set counterattacks on player phase, even after a unit has moved for that player phase, can help with these objectives. Edited April 22, 2019 by Glennstavos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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