Evil

[Judge Judy]

I'm not an atheist.

And Luxord there was no mention of "people." Read a few posts back. "Killing is always wrong." Again, I'll repeat myself. Is self-defense wrong then? What about to protect your family? What about on accident? What about for food (animals)? What about pests, like bugs?

Oops I guess I should have read the whole thing then :/

[Crystal Shards]

Obviously you don't know many good Christians, you're views toward them are biased and unacceptable IMO.

FOR THE LAST TIME YOU BEING CHRISTIAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CONVERSATION.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean we're discriminating against you because your logic is faulty.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean you're automatically right.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean we have the wrong views on you, "your people," your religion, or anyone or anything else.

If you're going to argue something, don't pull the religious discrimination card whenever someone disagrees. Actually stand your ground using a bit of logic. In other words: grow up a bit, will you?

[Knife]

FOR THE LAST TIME YOU BEING CHRISTIAN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS CONVERSATION.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean we're discriminating against you because your logic is faulty.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean you're automatically right.

JUST BECAUSE YOU'RE CHRISTIAN doesn't mean we have the wrong views on you, "your people," your religion, or anyone or anything else.

If you're going to argue something, don't pull the religious discrimination card whenever someone disagrees. Actually stand your ground using a bit of logic. In other words: grow up a bit, will you?

There's an easy solution to this. Don't bring it up.

[Crystal Shards]

Are you talking to me or him? Because I did not initially bring up religion. He immediately accused me of being atheist and tolerant of hypocrisy, however, when I disagreed.

EDIT: Oh, and apparently I'm selfish too. Go figure.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Phoenix Wright]

We are listening; you're just not making sense. You're letting yourself get in the way of whatever the hell it is you're trying to say.

And I'm still waiting for proof of my tolerance of hypocrisy.

Oops, not you, Easu or however it is spelled. I couldn't keep up being tripple-teamed. (Isn't complaining.)

Jyo, give me another warn please, I deserve it. I falsely accused Crystal Shards in being a hypocrite, and an Atheist. I'm sorry Shards, though you probably won't care.

I still don't see why you called me a moron for having different views on things.

-----

Gulcasa, what exactly did you refute again? I was arguing with Shards, Easu, and Seichi. You didn't come in until the very end, nor did you provide facts disproving me that good and evil don't exist.

----

I have provided logic behind good and evil existing, it just isn't being thought about.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[Crystal Shards]

I called you a moron for assuming I was atheist because I didn't agree with you, not because you didn't agree with me. I don't believe in relativism, whereas Esau does, so in actuality I agree with you, though your logic is flawed. Severely. You're using religion as a scapegoat for WHATEVER reason and it's not working for you. You haven't really shown any logic at all; all you've done is go on about how you're being discriminated against because you're Christian. I also don't see how killing is inherently evil, especially given the several scenarios I posted.

You can't just say something is evil and expect people to go with it.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Knife]

I was talking to everyone talking about religion.

[Judge Judy]

Do you believe true evil exists?

I have no idea

[Phoenix Wright]

I called you a moron for assuming I was atheist because I didn't agree with you, not because you didn't agree with me. I don't believe in relativism, whereas Esau does, so in actuality I agree with you, though your logic is flawed. Severely. You're using religion as a scapegoat for WHATEVER reason and it's not working for you.

Dude, I'm really not. I haven't said anything about religion until Easu brought it up. I said I deserved another warn, and I'm sorry for making three false accusations to you. I do not know you, or where you come from. I should have just took 10 deep breaths, and got along with my argument. I don't use my religion as a scapegoat, never have. Never felt the need to. Please. point out the areas where my logic is flawed, please.

--------

Killing is never acceptable because: Taking another's life for whatever reason isn't needed. If someone is trying to kill you, hurt them as much as possible, perhaps cripple them (though I wouldn't want that), but killing another before it is time to die isn't fair in any way.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[Esau of Isaac]

Oops, not you, Easu or however it is spelled. I couldn't keep up being tripple-teamed. (Isn't complaining.)

Esau. E-S-A-U. Pronounced "Eee-saw", or "Eee-sow".

However, should you choose, you can henceforth refer to me as any of the following: "Studmuffin", "Sexy", "Ladies' Man", or "Hot Ass".

Dude, I'm really not. I haven't said anything about religion until Easu brought it up. I said I deserved another warn, and I'm sorry for making three false accusations to you. I do not know you, or where you come from. I should have just took 10 deep breaths, and got along with my argument. I don't use my religion as a scapegoat, never have. Never felt the need to. Please. point out the areas where mu logic is flawed, please.

I didn't bring religion into this topic. Stop blaming me for your mistakes.

Killing is never acceptable because: Taking another's life for whatever reason isn't needed. If someone is trying to kill you, hurt them as much as possible, perhaps cripple them (though I wouldn't want that), but killing another before it is time to die isn't fair in any way.

That's not how the world works. This isn't Trigun, people don't have some amazing ability to just harm another person in all situations.

If someone attacks me or my own with the intention to kill, and I have the means with which to defend myself, it's officially their time to die. Is it good if they survive? By some means, yes. Is it bad that they died if they do? No, I would not say it is.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Esau of Isaac

[Crystal Shards]

Killing is never acceptable because: Taking another's life for whatever reason isn't needed. If someone is trying to kill you, hurt them as much as possible, perhaps cripple them (though I wouldn't want that), but killing another before it is time to die isn't fair in any way.

So you don't eat meat then? And you've literally never hurt a fly, ever? And what about accidents? You still haven't covered that. And you're telling me that if someone attacked you with a knife or gun you'd honestly be worried about his or her safety more than your own? I don't think so.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Phoenix Wright]

Esau. E-S-A-U. Pronounced "Eee-saw", or "Eee-sow".

However, should you choose, you can henceforth refer to me as any of the following: "Studmuffin", "Sexy", "Ladies' Man", or "Hot Ass".

I didn't bring religion into this topic. Stop blaming me for your mistakes.

That's not how the world works. This isn't Trigun, people don't have some amazing ability to just harm another person.

If someone attacks me or my own with the intention to kill, and I have the means with which to defend myself, it's officially their time to die. Is it good if they survive? By some means, yes. Is it bad that they died if they do? No, I would not say it is.

You brought it up with a minor touch, I only magnified it to a bigger problem than needed.

Firstly, I have no idea what Trigun is. Secondly, try telling that to a martial arts trainer. Or anyone with enough power to harm another being.

It is entirely possible to cripple someone with your fists, even on accident. My brother did just that once.

So you don't eat meat then? And you've literally never hurt a fly, ever? And what about accidents? You still haven't covered that. And you're telling me that if someone attacked you with a knife or gun you'd honestly be worried about his or her safety more than your own? I don't think so.

Yes I do, I didn't harm the animal though.

This isn't about flies, this is about people.

In all honesty, accidents are accidents. You got me there. Though, you DO have to be pretty precise when killing someone.

Yes, I am worried about their safety, not more than my own, it wouldn't be self defense then. It'd be like I'm killing myself. I can hurt people without killing them, granted it would be much harder to hurt someone with a knife or gun, but I can always carry protection. I can cut them up in the right spots that will hurt, bot not kill.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[lolDeath]

Screw this, I am minimodding. I honestly can't stand this I am sorry.

This does not relate to this debate in any way, could you guys please try to stick to the topics?

[Crystal Shards]

If you're going to minimod at least do it right. This is entirely relevant. He said killing is ALWAYS wrong; we're trying to find out why exactly it's wrong and why it's ALWAYS wrong.

And as someone who went to nationals for martial arts training, I can tell you this: I was trained to fight in self-defense. I know how to kill someone if need be. The point is that the need needs to be there. You're telling me there is NEVER a need for death?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Judge Judy]

Both sides take a chill pill :)

Don't kill each other.

[lolDeath]

If you're going to minimod at least do it right. This is entirely relevant. He said killing is ALWAYS wrong; we're trying to find out why exactly it's wrong and why it's ALWAYS wrong.

And as someone who went to nationals for martial arts training, I can tell you this: I was trained to fight in self-defense. I know how to kill someone if need be. The point is that the need needs to be there. You're telling me there is NEVER a need for death?

He's talking about ways to cripple someone when fighting. Are you kidding?

[Crystal Shards]

Luxord, this is a relatively calm discussion compared to the past few pages, so please, add to the actual discussion at hand. I'd love to hear input from you.

He's talking about ways to cripple someone when fighting. Are you kidding?

No, he's talking about crippling someone instead of killing someone. As an alternative. I am asking simply that if someone were attacking him, say with a knife or a gun, would he honestly give a shit about his or her safety over his own? If he cares about his own preservation more (which is, um, pretty much everyone but the psychologically ill), is it wrong then to kill in self-defense?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Esau of Isaac]

You brought it up with a minor touch, I only magnified it to a bigger problem than needed.

No I didn't. Seichi did, and then you went on a rant. I responded to that rant, and it fell into this current discussion.

Again, don't blame me for your mistakes.

Firstly, I have no idea what Trigun is.

It's an anime centering around Vash the Stampede, a man that refuses to kill one other person and only injures them.

Secondly, try telling that to a martial arts trainer.

Ironically, I was first given this view from a martial arts trainer.

Or anyone with enough power to harm another being.

Everyone has enough power to harm another being. Your view is incredibly naive and ridiculous, and if you were in a life-threatening situation you'd be entirely aware of how the world doesn't work like that at all. There are times when individuals try to hurt you, and you could not help but to kill them. The sooner you accept that, the better.

It is entirely possible to cripple someone with your fists, even on accident. My brother did just that once.

Good for your brother. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we're not amazing kung-fu masters that can block bullets with our eyelids and reflect fatal stabbings with skin made of adamantium.

There are times when killing another is unavoidable and in fact a plus for parties involved.

[Judge Judy]

Luxord, this is a relatively calm discussion compared to the past few pages, so please, add to the actual discussion at hand. I'd love to hear input from you.

I honestly am clueless. In my personal opinion, evil is based on thoughts and feelings of an individual. People have different ideas on what is evil and what is not evil.

Like in some tribes, killing someone is perfectly normal. So we can't generalise this.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Luxord

[Phoenix Wright]

No I didn't. Seichi did, and then you went on a rant. I responded to that rant, and it fell into this current discussion.

Again, don't blame me for your mistakes.

This is the problem, I can't tell who is who, or who said what. Whatever, it isn't ALL my fault.

It's an anime centering around Vash the Stampede, a man that refuses to kill one other person and only injures them.

Never seen it.

Ironically, I was first given this view from a martial arts trainer.

Honestly? When I was in Karate it was "Don't kill."

Everyone has enough power to harm another being. Your view is incredibly naive and ridiculous, and if you were in a life-threatening situation you'd be entirely aware of how the world doesn't work like that at all. There are times when individuals try to hurt you, and you could not help but to kill them. The sooner you accept that, the better.

Killing someone isn't the answer to the problem. If you are so nervous or you can't control yourself and you kill, learn to control yourself better.

Good for your brother. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we're not amazing kung-fu masters that can block bullets with our eyelids and reflect fatal stabbings with skin made of adamantium.

Don't jump to conclusions. My brother doesn't know one lick of Karate, or any other martial art. He is just able to do that because he is big.

There are times when killing another is unavoidable and in fact a plus for parties involved.

State when, otherwise this is an unneeded addition. War is the only one I can think of. Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[Esau of Isaac]

This is the problem, I can't tell who is who, or who said what. Whatever, it isn't ALL my fault.

Right to the left of my post and above my avatar is my username. It identifies who is who.

Never seen it.

You should, it's a classic.

Honestly? When I was in Karate it was "Don't kill."

Honestly.

Killing someone isn't the answer to the problem. If you are so nervous or you can't control yourself and you kill, learn to control yourself better.

At times it is kill or be killed. And there aren't simple classes to learn how to be some kind of awesome martial arts fighter that only harms but never kills. In fact, in a life or death situation, it's often more a result of luck that you manage not to kill the opposing party.

And your position is flawed at its premise, since one could just as insanely argue that it's never right to harm another.

Don't jump to conclusions. My brother doesn't know one lick of Karate, or any other martial art. He is just able to do that because he is big.

Mother of God.

The point is that when your life is in danger, you can't just be some amazing UFC Championship Fighter. If I run at you with a knife, and you have a gun, you likely have the smallest fraction of a second before I slide a bit of metal into your body multiple times and end your life. You don't have some kind of time to just say "I'm only going to hurt you".

State when, otherwise this is an unneeded addition. War is the only one I can think of.

What, do you want me to create the countless number of situations where it can occur? Really? You require me to tell you every type of situation in which it's either you're going to die or they are?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Esau of Isaac

[Phoenix Wright]

Right to the left of my post and above my avatar is my username. It identifies who is who.

I can get confused, I'm not Superman.

You should, it's a classic.

Maybe

Honestly.

Weird.

At times it is kill or be killed. And there aren't simple classes to learn how to be some kind of awesome martial arts fighter that only harms but never kills. In fact, in a life or death situation, it's often more a result of luck that you manage not to kill the opposing party.

I don't believe in "Survival of the Fittest" one bit...no, let me rephrase that; it isn't needed when dealing with someone wanting to kill you. I am well aware, it is the point of trying not to kill someone.

And your position is flawed at its premise, since one could just as insanely argue that it's never right to harm another.

You are confusing me with this. If we are talking about killing someone, being hurt will happen to one of the people in the fight. Plus, this debate is in the situation of a fight already, if you stand there, waiting to be killed, you need mental help BEFORE it happens.

Mother of God.

The point is that when your life is in danger, you can't just be some amazing UFC Championship Fighter. If I run at you with a knife, and you have a gun, you likely have the smallest fraction of a second before I slide a bit of metal into your body multiple times and end your life. You don't have some kind of time to just say "I'm only going to hurt you".

Shoot them in the leg, seems simple to me. And if they are that close to be able to cut me in a fraction of a second, why are they running towards me? Be literal, I know this isn't what you mean.

If they REALLY are trying to come at me with a knife, or trying to shoot me, there isn't a point in killing the person first. I can just shoot where it won't kill, then take the gun away from them.

I know what you mean though, the moment of death isn't going to come at you like the Matrix, it is gonna happen pretty fast. Act Faster. Be Smarter. Act BEFORE they do.

What, do you want me to create the countless number of situations where it can occur? Really? You require me to tell you every type of situation in which it's either you're going to die or they are?

That would be nice, yes.

Where? I am talking about when man. The "where" totally depends on the actual location. If I am in an area with no gangs, it'll be easy to kill, and not be killed a week later.

In the ghettos of the US, gangs are everywhere man, you can't just kill whenever. You'll be killed soon after.

Edited November 20, 2008 by Citrusman

[Crystal Shards]

Have you ever shot a gun? It's quite obvious you haven't. There's a reason why you have to have a certain skillset to be a sniper. The torso is the easiest area to hit, and guess what? Tons of essential organs are located there! Take your pick!

Edited November 20, 2008 by Crystal Shards

[Phoenix Wright]

Have you ever shot a gun? It's quite obvious you haven't. There's a reason why you have to have a certain skillset to be a sniper. The torso is the easiest area to hit, and guess what? Tons of essential organs are located there! Take your pick!

Thank you for asking me first. ^_^

No...I haven't. I've seen a shooting, and I've shot bee-bee guns...which are ten times lighter.

[Esau of Isaac]

I can get confused, I'm not Superman.

If you get confused at posters' names, imagine how this would be if you were being shot at by someone.

Weird.

What's weird about a man realizing that defending himself may one day come at the death of another?

I don't believe in "Survival of the Fittest" one bit...

...This has nothing to do with "Survival of the Fittest".

no, let me rephrase that; it isn't needed when dealing with someone wanting to kill you. I am well aware, it is the point of trying not to kill someone.

And if you'd been in a situation when your life was in danger, you'd know that you don't have that option.

When your life is on the line, the average man --and I would wager even the most veteran individuals experience it as well-- you're damn panicked.

You are confusing me with this. If we are talking about killing someone, being hurt will happen to one of the people in the fight.

I'm trying to help to illustrate to you how insane your position is; because there are times when you have enough force to stop someone, but not enough to spare them.

Have you ever shot someone? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to shoot someone and "just injure them"?

Plus, this debate is in the situation of a fight already, if you stand there, waiting to be killed, you need mental help BEFORE it happens.

Just like if you make some kind of incredible mental effort to spare a murderer that is trying to kill you, you need help.

Shoot them in the leg, seems simple to me. And if they are that close to be able to cut me in a fraction of a second, why are they running towards me? Be literal, I know this isn't what you mean.

They are running towards you, and will arrive at your location in a fraction of a second. Is it hard to imagine a man ten feet away sprinting towards you while you have a gun?

If they REALLY are trying to come at me with a knife, or trying to shoot me, there isn't a point in killing the person first. I can just shoot where it won't kill, then take the gun away from them.

Except that if they REALLY are trying to kill you, then you won't be able to just shoot them in the arm or leg unless you're incredibly lucky.

Have you ever held and shot a gun in your life?

I know what you mean though, the moment of death isn't going to come at you like the Matrix, it is gonna happen pretty fast. Act Faster. Be Smarter. Act BEFORE they do.

Acting before they do usually amounts to you getting a shot off into their torso before they do. If you missed a vital in your shot, then you may have the luxury of allowing them to win.

But your idea of fights is not always how combat works. Sometimes it's just the first one to the trigger, and you can't waste that extra few seconds aiming for a tiny portion of somone's body when you're going to be having high-projectile objects entering your body and killing you if you do.

Where? I am talking about when man. The "where" totally depends on the actual location. If I am in an area with no gangs, it'll be easy to kill, and not be killed a week later.

In the ghettos of the US, gangs are everywhere man, you can't just kill whenever. You'll be killed soon after.

Any situation where you are threatened with an exceedingly short amount of time that will lead to your death if you do not react quickly enough is about sufficient enough for discussion.

No...I haven't. I've seen a shooting, and I've shot bee-bee guns...which are ten times lighter.

Are you at all educated on the use of firearms, or their application in a fight?

Just imagine in your mind that someone is pointing a gun directly at you, about five feet away from you. Just by squeezing a few muscles in their hand, they can immediately end your life. Do you really think you have the luxury to somehow disarm this individual through normal means?

Edited November 20, 2008 by Esau of Isaac