The concept of debating, etc.

[Tino]

EDIT: Please look below at Mekkah's post. It's a much better way of explaining it ^_^

Edited November 23, 2008 by Tino

[Reikken]

FE1: Beat the game as fast as possible.

FE2: Beat the game as fast as possible.

FE3: Beat the game as fast as possible.

FE4: A rank all different ranks.

FE5: SSS rank the game.

FE6: S rank the game.

FE7: S rank the game.

FE8: Beat the game as fast as possible.

FE9: Gain max BEXP.

FE10: Gain max BEXP.

FEDS: Beat the game as fast as possible?

Eh.. That's not how I rank things, at least.

"as fast as possible" limits you to only the fastest strategies, and anything else is completely invalid. Like... take your wyvern rider and peg knight, rescue your lord and best fighter, and go to the throne, or something like that. So many otherwise decent-good units become completely useless. And that's also not how most people play the game anyway.

And for FE9 and 10, I don't cut it off at max bexp. The bexp limits are very easy to achieve for some chapters, so often one char being stronger than another would have little to no worth

I say . . . fewer turns is better, but don't put too much weight on any one strategy or scenario. Try to consider all, or all reasonable ones. Of course, better ones (ones that take fewer turns, etc.) hold more weight.

And this is why I say that, especially when talking about supports, that XXX mid tier unit might be fielded sometimes, rather than "This guy isn't one of the best, so he is never getting used. He doesn't fit into any of the strategies that win as fast as possible." And to me, that makes much more sense.

[Mekkah]

As far as support partners go, there are two branches of logic I have seen used.

The first is "this unit is Mid tier, so if I am using him when I could have been using a High/Top dude instead, that hurts my team...this cancels out the benefits for your unit's stats, so we may as well assume they're not there" (CATS used this a lot).

The second is what Reikken said - they're in play sometimes, but not always.

I wrote a debating guide for FEP a long time ago, since I was helping to build a debating section for the site, but there was like no other dudes helping out...so I guess I may as well post it here.

[Mekkah]

tl;dr ahead, which is why im double posting

Introduction

Welcome to the world of comparing and debating Fire Emblem characters.

Oftentimes, people not only want to play the Fire Emblem series, but also talk about them. They will use this genius device called the internet to get into contact with others, and start sharing their experiences. And that's where things can collide, because many, many things in these games are based on variables, most notably playstyle and the RNG (Random Number Generator). With these two ever changing factors, people are often in disagreement about which character is better than another. Player A may find Erk a suberb unit, player B prefers to use Nino, and player C's preference lies with Canas. Which of these is the best, or at least, better than the other?

While the answer to that question may seem subjective to most, there are ways to compare these units without using flawed video evidence, game experience and endless "but he has this" "but I have this" nay-yay fights. Still, despite these solutions (which I will elaborate in a bit), there are still disagreements about which unit trumps which. To solve those, these objective methods are combined with logic to create the art of debating.

This article will explain these methods to you, give you some insight in comparing characters in debating, most notably what to do and what not to do.

Table of Content

1. Unit Statistics

2. Comparing

3. Logical leaps

4. Resources

5. Likeliness of happening

6. Common Mistakes

7. Terminology

1. Unit Statistics

Probably the most important factor when comparing units is stats - HP, Strength, Skill, Speed, etc. They determine how good a character is at fighting, and since fighting is the goal for nearly every chapter in the Fire Emblem series, that usually takes up a good portion of debate. The problem is that the aforementioned RNG turns every unit's stat into luck of the draw. My Lyn may have 13 Str, but yours could have 16 at the same point in the game. Because of this, averages are used. Averages take into account every single possibility, instead of just the possibility that gave your Lyn 16 Str. Averages for Fire Emblem characters can be found here: http://fea.fewiki.net/ .

Take for example Lyn. At L1, she always has 4 Strength. At L2, she could have either 4 or 5, depending on the RNG. Her growth is 40%, so therefore, she has 4 Strength 40% of the time, and 5 Str 60% of the time. Therefore, her average Strength at L2 is 4.4. When debating, those decimal numbers are often left intact.

When looking at averages, you may discover that they are often pretty simple to calculate: simply take a unit's base stat, multiply their decimal growth by the amount of levels they gained, and voilá. For example, Lyn's Strength average at L7 is 4 + 0.4 * 6 + 6.4. However, when stat caps come into play, this formula is flawed. Lyn's Spd at her very last levels appears to be growing extremely slowly (28.5 to 28.9 is only 0.4, while her growth is 0.6). This is because when calculating and giving weight to possibilities of a unit's stats, the game gives equal weight to a stat that turns out above average to one that turns out below average, also called RNG blessed versus RNG screwed. However, at this point, Lyn's Spd is very likely to be already capped at 30, so RNG blessing makes almost no difference. That leaves nothing to outweigh the Spd stat turning out below average.

If you do not understand above maths, do not be afraid. Caps are only a small part of debating for most games. What's important to understand about averages is that they are there to take out the random factor of unit statistics. However, it's still valid to state that stats are not locked to averages when debating. And if a small fluctuation can make a difference between a KO and a survival, that is precisely what you may want to note. For example, take an enemy with 15 Attack. A L11 Lyn has 23 HP and 4 Def, so on average, she would be able to take two blows of 11 damage and survive. However, if either her HP or her Defense are even one point below average, this attack value suddendly kills her in two hits rather than three. The likeliness of such an amount of RNG screwing can be discovered by clicking on the stat (for example, to take a closer look on Lyn's Def, click Def). You will see here that the chance of Lyn having 3 or less Def is 38%.

This is the most technical part of debating. It probably feels like a nightmare if you have never been fond of maths, so if that is the case, just use averages for the time being to get used to it.

For enemy statistics, samples from the game are actually considered valid, considering they are less likely to be vastly different from one another. So don't be afraid to match up your averaged L4 Kent against a Brigand you found in the game.

2. Comparing

Now, you know what stats units have on average on a certain level. But you are not ready to compare characters yet, even though you might think you are. Why? For one, because the stats in the game are not the stats used for battle. They all have a meaning behind them: one point of Spd equals two Avo and one AS, two points of Skl equals one Crt and four Hit, etc. Info about what exactly stats mean, as well as information about nearly everything else related to any Fire Emblem ever, can be found on Serenes Forest ( http://www.serenesforest.net/ ). Use this as your main resource.

Of course, converting stats from averages to what we call combat stats is annoying work to do. For the GBA FEs, this converter can be used: http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE678Statulator.php . There is also one for FE9 here: http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9Statulator.php .

For example, we'll compare Treck to Dieck. Since this is just a meaningless demonstration of comparison, we will ignore anything concerning level leads or supports - I will get back to those later.

L15 Dieck

HP: 35.0

Str: 13.0

Skl: 16.0

Spd: 13.0

Def: 8.0

Res: 2.5

Luk: 8.5

Con: 13

L15 Treck

HP: 34.3

Str: 12.4

Skl: 9.3

Spd: 10.8

Def: 11.3

Res: 0.5

Luk: 10.5

Con: 9

Now, without converting these stats to battle parameters, this is a fairly stale comparison. Anyone defending Dieck can point to Dieck's small lead in Str, but Treck's side can emphasize that Treck has the ability to use lances (which generally are more powerful). Dieck has higher Spd, so he could be called dodgier, but Treck has higher Luk and more control over the weapon triangle. Dieck has slightly more HP and Res, but Treck has more Def, and is able to use a Javelin to avoid a counterattack. Etcetera, etcetera.

However, when you convert them using the Statulator, it becomes a little more clear:

L15 Treck - 12.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 23.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

L15 Dieck - 13.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 36.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Here, we can see that Dieck is winning Atk (0.6), AS (2.2), Hit (12.4) and Crt (3.4) on the offense. Defensively, he wins 2.4 avo, 0.7 hp and 2 res, but loses 3.3 def and 2 critavo.

However, we did not equip them with any weapons. Without weapons, units cannot fight, so comparing them like above is fairly meaningless unless they use mostly the same weapons and/or have the same constitution, but neither is the case.

L15 Dieck

Iron Sword: 18.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 121.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Steel Swrd: 21.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Iron Blade: 22.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 101.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

L15 Treck

Iron Sword: 17.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 108.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Steel Swrd: 20.4 atk, 9.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 30.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Iron Blade: 21.4 atk, 7.8 AS, 88.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 26.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Iron Lance: 20.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

w/ Javelin: 19.4 atk, 8.8 AS, 78.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 28.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Steel Lance: 22.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 78.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 24.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

As you can see, when you consider different weapons, Dieck takes more pronounced leads. Him switching to heavier weapons leaves his 13 AS intact, while Treck's 9 con does not allow him to do so. In addition, Treck's Hit rates fall very low, and when he is losing AS, he is also losing Avo by more significant amounts.

This demonstrates how to compare basic unit battle parameters. However, we only touched the top of the iceberg here. Above comparison completely lacks a mention of supports. Thankfully, the provided Statulators make it easy to factor those in. If you need a refresher course on how supports work, don't hestitate to use Serenes Forest again.

Let's say that Dieck will have C Rutger/C Klein, while Treck has B Gonzales. This is quite unrealistic due to the timing of those supports, but for this example, it will do just fine.

L15 Dieck - C Rutger, C Klein

Iron Sword - 18.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 126.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

Steel Swrd - 21.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 111.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

Iron Blade - 22.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

L15 Treck - B Gonzales

Iron Sword - 18.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 113.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 37.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Steel Swrd - 21.4 atk, 9.8 AS, 98.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 35.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Iron Blade - 22.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 29.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Iron Lance - 20.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 98.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 37.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

w/ Javelin - 19.4 atk, 8.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 33.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Steel Lance - 23.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 29.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Here you can see that bringing up these supports would hardly help Treck - Dieck's wins remain in place for the most part.

So how could Treck ever secure himself a win against Dieck?

3. Logical leaps

This is the core of what seperates good debaters from others: the ability to show off convictive bullshit. In a debate, every point is fair to bring up. If it goes unchallenged, or is countered inappropiately, it is considered fair game. Of course, the more bullshit you bring up, the easier it is for the other to call out, so pick your words carefully.

For Treck, his best bet would be to overhype his own strengths (movement, weapon triangle and access to 1-2 range before promotion), as well as trying to even out their level as much as possible (perhaps by bringing up that not only Treck, but Dieck too, has fierce competition for a promotion item, so that they may have to wait until the Secret Shop in 16x to get to 20/1).

Admittedly, Dieck is a little too hard for Treck to overcome, but there's been some fairly huge upsets in past debates, so who knows. There's smaller gains than trying to make Treck defeat Dieck - for example, the value of 1-2 range to overcome defensive problems (often relevant in debates concerning Mages), or whether an Avo lead beats a lead in concrete defenses.

4. Resources

An often made mistake by beginning debaters is that stat holes and other shortcomings of a unit can be fixed by the excuse of beneficial treatment. In other words, Oswin's Spd can be fixed by a Speedwing, Micaiah's HP matters not so much in the face of an Angelic Robe, Largo being underleveled is no more the case thanks to BEXP, and Edward's mediocre offense later on is fixed by the Wrath skill.

The problem with such arguments is that these resources are accessible to about anyone. We can increase Oswin's Spd by 2, but we can do the same to everyone else with that Speedwing, and he will still be behind. Of course, some people like Guy do not need a Speedwing at all. Obviously, not needing a Speedwing is a huge advantage, because that means someone else can get it. Debating is not only about making your unit look as good as possible, but also the rest of the team.

The same applies to all other kinds of beneficial treatment. This ranges from giving them lots of BEXP, skills, setting up kills for them to fix their low offense, protecting them from harm on enemy phase to fix their low defense, etcetera. In the end, having a problem is always worse than not having a problem. The fact that resources are available is a benefit overall, but since everyone has an equal right to consume each of those resources, they are better off ignored.

On a related note, don't make the mistake of counting your unit's starting weapon as an advantage for them in a game where trading is done before you can say "gimme". Guy comes with a Killing Edge. I do not need to move, fight, or use Guy in any way to use that Killing Edge though. All I need to get that Killing Edge into my inventory is talk to him with Matthew. Renault comes with a Fortify Staff, but I just need his village, and not Renault's capabilities, to use it. Continuing on this line of logic, Dart does not get credit for Geitz and his fighting capabilities, and Clarine is not the one that allows you to use Rutger's offensive prowess. All they do is letting you use their weapons. For everything else, you need to move Geitz/Rutger, and not Dart/Clarine.

Note that you can only count a resource as your unit's advantage if your unit brings that to the team where you would not have it otherwise. Without Clarine, you would not have Rutger's Killing Edge. Without Colm, you would not have that Energy Ring from the Mage in Ch7. Without Hector, you would not be able to use the Wolf Beil to your advantage. Without Neimi, you would (likely) not be able to use Nidhogg (the S-rank bow), because the only other unit with a high bow weapon level is Innes. Which brings me to my next point.

5. Likeliness of happening

Above outline of resources shows that it's not likely that Oswin gets his Speedwing - after all, nearly everyone on the team benefits from it, so he doesn't have any exclusive rights to use the Speedwing for his own.

In a similiar way, the likeliness of other things can be measured. The more benefit something brings, the more likely it is to happen. The most important example of this line of logic is the chance that your unit gets certain supports. Raven is considered one of the, if not the best unit in FE7. Therefore, he will be used in lots of playthroughs, since your chance of succeeding an S-rank run is a lot bigger if you use units that help your ranks (such as Raven), rather than units that hurt your ranks (such as Wil). Raven has a better chance of being in play than Wil. So if Rebecca is being debated, she can be assumed to be supporting Raven, rather than supporting Wil.

However, note that more units might want to support Raven. Lucius and Priscilla, for example. Of course, bringing this up brings other complications: Priscilla has a lot of other people to support, and many of them are likely to be in play, and some of them are more desirable than Raven for her due to better bonuses (Guy and Erk). Lucius is considered about average, due to his high offense and access to staves, but extremely low durability. Taking those facts into account, Raven is not likely to have all his five support slots filled, and therefore he will want a Rebecca support.

6. Common Mistakes by Debaters

Here are some common errors I see by people who just started debating, though some of them are also made by more veteraned ones.

6.1 Class-by-Class

One of the biggest faults people make when debating has to be class-by-class comparisons.

Example: a debate between Rebecca and Harken

Rebecca is a Sniper. The only other Snipers in this game, Louise and Wil, both have inferior stats to Rebecca at pretty much any moment. This makes Rebecca the best Sniper.

Harken is a Hero. There's another Hero in this game, Raven. And when comparing their stats when Harken joins, Raven easily comes out on top due to supports and superior statistics overall. Therefore, you could conclude that Harken is the worst Hero.

Since Rebecca is the best Sniper, and Harken the worst Hero, Rebecca is better. Right?

No, not really. The catch in this faulty, but nonetheless common way of arguing is that your class makes no difference for your purpose. Both of these units are combat units. Their classes provide some attributes to their fighting, such as the fact that Harken can weild swords and axes, while Rebecca has bows, and that Rebecca can use ballistae. However, at the end of the day, they are both units meant to kill enemies. What their class is makes no further difference besides what the statistics show. Since those statistics are available - indeed, a centerpoint of debate - it is useless to bring up class any further. It is about as helpful as comparing Eliwood to all people with red hair and Hector to all people with blue hair, and then see which one is relatively better among the people with the same hair colour.

Another reason why class-by-class makes no sense is because the debate is about Rebecca vs Harken, and not Harken vs other Heroes or Rebecca vs other Snipers. Such comparisons have absolutely nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Besides above arguments, a great way to instantly counter class-by-class arguments (also called a competition argument) is by reminding your opponent which debate you are playing. If other Heroes are indeed better than Harken, and Harken is better than Rebecca (which is what the debate is about), then said other Heroes are also better than Rebecca, and it makes no difference.

6.2 20/20 Comparisons

Another common mistake I would like to shove into the spotlight is 20/20 comparisons. People insist on starting to compare their characters at 20/20, and usually leave it at that, but there's several problems with that.

- One of the units might have a level lead over the other during the game, and comparing them at 20/20, or any even level, completely neglects that.

- Generally, units do not even reach 20/20 during the whole course of the game. That means that it would only be representative of the last chapter(s), while there are many, many more chapters to take into account. Winning in the end does not mean winning it all.

- Even when they reach 20/20, they are unable to gain any EXP, and that means that for some games, they are hurting the EXP rank. Obviously it is better to use someone who did not cap their level yet, and only use 20/20 people when you need to (usually this is never).

The better way to time statistical comparisons is as following:

- Start with the unit that joins earlier, at base level. See how he is doing in his joining situation against enemies, and judge whether he is having a positive or a negative effect.

- Once the other unit joins, determine a level that the first unit built up (a general standard is somewhere between 1.3 and 1.5 levels per chapter in GBA FE and FE5 and similiary sized maps, a lot more for FE4). Factor in optional supports for the first unit as well, and compare the two units.

- Compare them again every time something changes the comparison drastically. Usually, this is the availability of a better weapon type, supports or promotion of either or both units.

- Feel free to do a lategame comparison as well.

For example, we have Guy versus Raven. An ideal scheme for comparisons would be:

1. Guy at base level (Ch13), showing how he performs excellently against earlygame enemies due to insane Spd, WTA against axemen and a quick Matthew support.

2. Fast forward to Whereabouts Unknown (Ch17), where Raven joins. Compare their battle parameters, where Guy is probably around L10 while Raven is at base level. Raven cannot have supports yet, but Guy will probably have C or B Matthew, maybe C Priscilla.

3. At the end of Dragon's Gate (Ch20), Killing Edges become available, so those may replace their standard Iron/Steel equipments.

4. Not much later, Guy will promote due to his level lead, and his supports will also finish earlier. A comparison between a 20/1 Guy and a 17 Raven with their shiny new Killing Edges would be a very good move on Guy's part.

5. Then Raven promotes quickly thereafter - noting that the situation from #4 does not last very long would be a good thing to note for Raven's side here. This is the last thing that really changes the tide.

6. Optional endgame performance, with both around 20/10 or so.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

6.4 "That's not fair!"

This mistake isn't seen that often, but it's good to address it anyways. Say we compare Dieck to Oujay when Oujay joins. Dieck started two levels higher, and has had Ch2, Ch3, Ch4, Ch5, Ch6, Ch7 and half of Ch8 to fight things. That would put him at around L14, while Oujay is L3. If you are defending Oujay here (if that's the case, I'm sorry, but you're screwed), do not throw up the defense line "well, Oujay is a ton of levels lower, so it's to be expected that he is doing worse! here, check out my comparison when they are both 20/1!!!". It doesn't work like that. Dieck has a sustainable level lead over Oujay, and that's a huge advantage for him.

What's even worse is drawing class into it again. Debating Guy versus Geitz, we will find that Guy has a massive Spd advantage when Geitz joins the crew. Geitz side, do not bother with "Guy is a Swordmaster, of course he is faster! Geitz, however, is pretty damn fast for a Warrior!". At the end of the day, they're all fighting units, and any advantage they have works in their favour, different class or not.

6.5 Constitution versus Spd

In one corner, we have a L8 Hero Raven. In the other, we have a L8 Harken. Raven has 24 Spd, and 9 Con. Harken has 17 Spd, and 11 Con. Some people will bring up the fact that Harken is better at using heavier weapons, due to his higher Constitution, while Raven isn´t as good, since he is weighed down.

Let´s give them both weapons, and see how much this holds up.

9 wt: Raven has 24 Spd, Harken 17.

10 wt: Raven has 23 Spd, Harken 17.

11 wt: Raven has 21 Spd, Harken 17.

12 wt: Raven has 20 Spd, Harken 16.

Even when fully weighed down, Raven is faster than Harken.

Let´s make it even better for Harken, and pretend that Raven only has 19 Spd.

9 wt: Raven has 19, Harken 17

10 wt: Raven has 18, Harken 17.

11 wt: Raven has 17, Harken 17.

12 wt: Raven has 16, Harken 16.

And so on, and so on. What have we learned? For one, the fact that a unit loses AS is not worth a lot if the unit you are defending is slower to begin with. For two, Spd is more useful than Con. A unit with more Spd can use heavier weapons to increase their Atk. A unit with more Con can do that too, but he cannot use lighter weapons to increase their Spd.

For instance, if there is an enemy with 13 AS that requires a Steel Sword (10 wt) to die in one round, both Raven and Harken can use it. However, if there is an enemy that dies to two Iron Sword slashes that has 15 AS, only Raven can double it and thus kill it in one round.

7. Terminology

Sometimes debaters (or generally FE fans) use words or figures you might not understand. If that happens, I recommend checking out this place: http://www.serenesforest.net/general/abbreviation.html , as well as this chapter.

##/## (20/3, 14/4, 13/0, etc)

As you might have guessed, this refers to a unit´s level. Unlike the notation of L# (L14 Treck, L3 Seth, for example), this way takes into account the level at which a unit promotes. This is the first half of the number. The second half is the level you see in the game. For example, a 18/3 Serra would be a Serra that grew to L18, used a Guiding Ring, then gained another two levels to end up at a L3 Bishop. If the level for after promotion is 0, the unit is unpromoted, for example a 5/0 Dieck is simply Dieck at his base level, a 10/0 Alan is just a L10 Cavalier Alan, etc. The level before promotion is often left off or put as ?? for prepromotes (since there isn´t really a level at which they promoted). Some people also choose to simply continue counting after a unit promoted, rather than including the slash. Serra hits 20, then uses a Guiding Ring, and becomes 21. From here, she continues leveling to 22, 23, etc, all the way to 40. Obviously, this only really works if a unit promotes at L20, since if they promote at 15 instead, saying they are 18 gives the impression that they did not promote yet. Therefore, I recommend using the slashed method.

So:

L14 Mercenary Raven = 14 Raven = 14/0 Raven

L3 Hero Raven (promoted at L20) = 23 Raven = 20/3 Raven

L3 Hero Raven (promoted at L15) = 15/3 Raven

For FE8, there are split paths upon promotion (Franz might be a Paladin or a Great Knight). Make clear which path you used for your comparisons, either by stating it, or using something like 20/3 Great Knight Franz.

8. Credits

I would like to thank the following people that made it possible for me to write this.

VincentASM, for building and hosting Serenes Forest, which is a wonderful resource for everything, mostly because it has tested information and not just rumors.

Reikken, for being an awesome debater with short and sharp style that often leaves room for no comeback, and having an awesome Statulator that saves lots of work. Layed the ground for many debate arguments that you see in past debates. Much of his ideas are represented in this guide.

SolidSense, for being an awesome debater, bringing almost irrefutable logic through walls of text, especially when it came to proving the mistake of "Seth hogs EXP".

CATS aka WJC, again for being an awesome debater. Specifically for debating me a lot of times, and thereby making me go through quite a few of above mistakes as well as teaching me how it's really done. His posts, too, have inspired part of this guide.

Inui, Sentenal and other debaters, for being FE debaters.

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

Maybe this should be best suited if it's moved in the Debate board instead. Also, this should be pinned as well...

[Tino]

Ugh... Never mind this. Someone remove it, please ^_^

Edited December 10, 2008 by Tino

[Tino]

Some other things that might be worth thinking about… Oh yeah, tl;dr ahead.

(( There might be some things that might remind you of economy class or something ))

Costs

This is one of the very basic things. Obviously, promoting cheaper is better. As such, when comparing two characters, you’ll want to look at not just their promotion time, but their promotion cost as well. For example, Dart requires 50,000 gold to promote, while Dorcas needs “only” 10,000 gold. That’s five times as cheap, which is obviously an example. Of course, this is a fairly exaggerated example, but there are also units who need 20,000 gold to promote, and that means he’s still two times as cheap. In other words, he’ll pretty much always have an advantage or be equal to others in this area. He’ll never be at a disadvantage, unless another unit can promote for free, which would be pretty dang awesome, by the way.

Now, another way to look at this is to look at average promotion costs. I’ll be using Blazing Sword as an example, just like I did with the Dorcas/Dart comparison.

Hero Crests cost 10,000 gold.

Knight Crests cost 10,000 gold.

Orion Bolts cost 10,000 gold.

Elysian Whips cost 10,000 gold.

Guiding Rings cost 10,000 gold.

Heaven Seals cost 20,000 gold.

Fell Contracts cost 50,000 gold.

Ocean Seals cost 50,000 gold.

There are four units who need a Hero Crest -> 4 units ,, 40,000 gold

There are four units who need a Knight Crest -> 8 units ,, 80,000 gold

There are three units who need an Orion Bolt -> 11 units ,, 110,000 gold

There are four units who need an Elysian Whip -> 15 units ,, 150,000 gold

There are six units who need a Guiding Ring -> 21 units ,, 210,000 gold

There are two units who need a Heaven Seal -> 23 units ,, 250,000 gold

There are two units who need a Fell Contract -> 25 units ,, 350,000 gold

There is one unit who needs an Ocean Seal -> 26 units ,, 400,000 gold

400,000 / 26 = 15,000 gold (rounded to the nearest 1,000)

And this is without pre-promoted units, Athos, Ninian/Nils and Merlinus, because that would give an average promotion cost of 10,000 gold (rounded to the nearest 1,000 again), which means 10,000 gold promotion units are never at a disadvantage, except against pre-promoted units.

--------------

That was just promotion cost. Now, there are other costs as well. Let’s assume unit X uses 20 weapons with a total worth of 10,000 gold throughout the game and requires no promotion item, while the other characters needs 10,000 gold to promote, and then uses 40 weapons with a total worth of 20,000 gold as well, then unit X is three times as cheap, which is always a good thing. The same thing as with promotion cost applies to these other costs.

“Jobs”

Rebecca is a character who joins without any hassle, at the start of Birds of a Feather. She’s one of the compulsory units in that chapter who joins automatically. So she’s there, “for free”. However, to become better, she’ll have to gain experience in some way. The only way for her to do that is by fighting enemies, killing enemies, or getting attacked (which will net her a grand total of 1 EXP since she doesn’t counter any things but archers, which won’t attack her since Rebecca can counter them). Neither are beneficial towards the team, which is what gives healers such a nice advantage, since they “draw” EXP from their own “pool”, of which nobody else can take EXP. All fighters are taking EXP away from others. In a debate between two or more fighters, this doesn’t matter much, but in a match between a fighter and a healer, it definitely does.

There are different jobs, as the title of this “chapter” told you. There are fighters, healers, thieves and “dancers”. (If there are any “jobs” I missed, please tell me).

Fighters are obviously units who are supposed to fight enemies. Healers are obviously characters who are healing your wounded units. Healers who can fight too do exist, usually in the form of promoted magic users (fighters) or healers. That’s obviously a big plus. Thieves are units who do all the stealing and lockpicking (or most of it, to be a bit more exact). They obviously can kill enemies as well, but that’s not what they’re mainly doing. Getting to chests, doors and stealable items is their first priority. Obviously, they will get some kills since they also need to grow (mainly for additional durability). Dancers are units who can refresh other units, such as FE8 Tethys, a Dancer, but also FE7 Nils, a Bard or FE9 Reyson, a Heron. So “dancer” now means something other than the class “dancer”.

Item Sharing

Yeah, I know you covered this as well, but I still feel like I should say something about it.

There’s this one problem. Namely that there’s a tension between needs (wishes) and resources (possibilities): the amount of items you have is limited relative to the need/wishes. Since the resources/possibilities are inadequate, we can talk about scarcity (that reminded me of economy class…) being in effect. Most items you have are scarce. All of them, in fact, as far as I know (or I must have forgotten some kind of weapon that’s free that never breaks and you have for every unit), since you have to sacrifice something in order to use them. For example, using a Speedwing on Kent means you can’t use that Speedwing on Sain anymore. Or if that Speedwing would’ve had to be received from some random village, then we can already talk about scarcity as well.

The existence of scarcity means that choices have to be made. For example, you can use the Speedwing I mentioned on Guy. However, is this a good move? Wouldn’t it have been better to give the Speedwing to someone like Sain or Wil or Florina? I won’t go in-depth on them right now, but that’s also not necessary. The point is that you could’ve given it to someone else as well, which means one unit doesn’t have a higher chance of receiving the Speedwing over anyone else without justification (obviously, if you have 30 units with 30 speed and 1 unit with 10 speed, it would be perfectly viable to argue that the 10 speed unit can get the Speedwing, but such a thing doesn’t ever occur, so it barely matters anyway).

Just another, shorter way of explaining it, I suppose.

Something completely different

This is something I’ve been thinking about for a while. Please read this pretty carefully (if you decide to read it, that is, which I hope you will).

Let’s say we have unit A. What does this unit need to become good? Or perhaps a better question would be: what does this unit need that others don’t, or what does this unit not need that others do?

Assuming unit A is supposed to fight and kill enemies, one of the things he’ll need is kills, obviously. This is what most units need to gain stats and levels, but there are exceptions, such as healers and dancer-like units. If there are 10 fighters and 2 healers in your team, being able to heal and not take experience away from other fighters is obviously superior. However, if you have 5 healers and 3 fighters or something similar, it’s obviously better to be able to fight things, for practically the same reason it’s better to be a healer when there are 10 fighters and only one other healer.

To produce kills, unit A will obviously need offense. If he has very sucky offense compared to the units in your team in his early chapters (such as four-rounding things when others are two-rounding or even one-rounding), then unit A is obviously at a good disadvantage, since he has the worst offense. And if the other unit doesn’t exist yet (the unit the other debater is defending), then the non-existent unit is superior, unless unit A has something near 1337 durability, which he probably won’t have. Besides, durability won’t help him kill things faster.

If unit A doesn’t make his offense grow from the kills he can produce, it might not be a good idea to let unit A kill enemies, since his offense will remain relatively the same, or even become relatively worse, while others might get relatively better offense due to have fairly good strength and speed growths (which are the main factors when it comes to offense, although hit and critical are obviously important factors as well). As such, it might be better to not use unit A unless he can kill something that has less than 25% HP left (since he’s still four-rounding or worse, considering his bad offensive growths). Of course, it’s assumed unit A is used in at least one playthrough since he’s one of the characters being discussed, but it’s actually possible that not using unit A is better than using unit A, which is definitely a strike against said unit A.

“Prosperity”

Once a unit becomes relatively better, he’ll do a better job in satisfying his wishes (killing enemy units, for example). That’s completely logical, and that’s why it’s the most often used standard to define the superior unit. I’ve done some research regarding this standard.

Let’s pretend unit B (screw unit A…) is there in chapter 1. In chapter 2, his stats are twice as good as in chapter 2. Now, he has obviously improved a fuckton, right? Well, not necessarily. That only holds true if the enemies remain the same as in chapter 1. If the enemies become twice as good as well, then unit B’s stat increases make no difference (10 atk vs. 20 hp/5 def is exactly the same as 20 atk vs. 40 hp/10 def). In other words, he hasn’t relatively improved. Rather, he has remained relatively equal. As such, I’ve come up with two terms: “fake” improvement and real improvement. Fake is wrapped in quotes because I couldn’t come up with a good replacement for it >__<

The fake improvement is just the raw increase in stats or something. The real improvement is the improvement you see after considering all factors, such as enemy stats. For example, improving from 10 atk to 20 atk seems like a massive improvement. If enemies had 20 hp and 5 def when the unit had 10 atk, but 40 hp and 10 def when the unit had 20 atk, there’s no real improvement at all.

Actions that are not “fight”

There are many actions that don’t kill enemy units, but that do aid the team. Think about rescuing villages, healing units, stealing items, opening chests, etc.

Rescuing villages is something most units can do, but sometimes there are villages that have to be rescued really quickly, but that are on the other side of the mountains, which only your sole flying unit can reach. If you receive something (let’s say 10,000 gold, for example) from that village, then that sole flying unit has the advantage of being the only one who can gain 10,000 that 10,000 gold for your team. If the game is fairly restrictive on money, then that’s obviously a HUGE advantage.

Being able to heal your other units is obviously a big advantage, since you’re improving the team’s overall durability, and there are usually, if not always more fighters who need healing than healers, who usually don’t need healing. Healers also draw EXP from their own pool, of which nobody else can draw. They don’t take EXP away from anyone (unless you count healer A healing something that healer B could’ve healed as “taking away EXP”, which I don’t), which makes them superior for eventual EXP ranks.

Stealing items is obviously awesome, since only few units can do that, and stealing usually nets the team the most awesome, useful or expensive items/weapons, or sometimes even gold. Matthew, for example, is the only one who can get the Silver Card in Blazing Sword, which means he’s practically responsible for the entire Funds rank, since the Silver Card is pretty much necessary to get 5 stars on that rank.

Opening chests is usually something only thieves do as well, unless some of your characters have Chest Keys and/or Door Keys (in the case of doors, obviously). However, since thieves aren’t supposed to fight enemies, it’s better to have an extra fighter ready to kill something and have your thief grab that one item from the chest or open that door, since killing one enemy and gaining an extra item >>> killing one enemy (thieves are generally not reliably killing things).

Then there are more actions, but this should explain what I mean.

Some other stuff

Let’s say we have four characters in our team. Let’s take a look at what units A to D gain in chapter 1.

Unit A: Silver Sword, 1 atk, 1 def, 1 res, 1 hp

Unit B: Silver Sword, Silver Lance, 2 atk, 2 def, 2 res, 2 hp

Unit C: Silver Sword, Silver Lance, Silver Axe, 3 atk, 3 def, 3 res, 3 hp

Unit D: Silver Sword, Silver Lance, Silver Axe, Silver Bow, 4 atk, 4 def, 4 res, 4 hp

Unit A has killed one unit and gained one level.

Unit B has killed two units and gained two levels.

Unit C has killed three units and gained three levels.

Unit D has killed four units and gained four levels.

Unit A, B, C and D all have 100% growth rates in str, def, res and hp in this case.

These differences obviously come from one character getting more or less kills than the others. However,

are those differences justifiable? The answers to this one particular question can and most likely will diverge. What one calls just, the other calls unacceptable. Many people are of the opinion that the differences shouldn’t be too big, but that some differences are just.

There are two types of differences: differences between units themselves, and differences between units with certain jobs (explained in one of the earlier “chapters”).

I suppose we can assume that a just kill distribution is what we should strive for. On ground of the basics of just, we try to level out the kill distribution. Just is a value that’s written deep in our culture, and I think it applies to these FE games as well. On ground of humanity, many people think it’s unacceptable that unit A getting many kills should exist together with unit B getting very few kills. Obviously, it’s impossible to assume all units getting the exact same amount of kills. The numbers should be realistic. But if unit A and unit B are in the same area with the same units without any chokepoints or something similar, it should be so that unit A gets 80% of the kills while unit B gets the other 20%.

The point I’m making is that no single unit is entitled to significantly more kills than other characters, unless there are good reasons. For example, if there’s a map that’s divided in two parts. The right part has nothing but mages, and you have one character with 20 res, while all other characters have 0 res. Since the mages have at least 20 atk, the 20 res unit is obviously the best to send towards all those mages, and will as such be the one getting most, if not all of those kills.

Some kind of conclusion

Something that might be worth doing as well will be talked about in this conclusion. In other words, it’s not really a conclusion, but whatever :/

Every research starts with a question. If you’re going to debate two characters, you’ll want to do some research. Or rather, you might want to formulate a couple of research questions. A couple of examples.

1. How much did unit A improve between chapter X and chapter Y?

2. What influence does others having the same job have on my unit?

3. How much does my unit cost?

4. How come my unit improved more during period X than in period Y?

5. Should magic users’ durability weigh just as much as a frontliner’s durability, since they’re in the back?

Question 1 could be answered if you have a table with the correct data. The answer to question 3 could be found by estimating the value of all weapons and items a unit would need throughout the entire game.

If you look at those five questions, you’ll see that there are different types of questions in there. Question 1 asks for a description of the improvement of unit A. To answer question 4 you’ll have to make a declaration. And question 5 asks for an opinion.

The answer to descriptive questions is a description of a situation, event or improvement. If you compare the improvements of unit A and unit B, you’re also answering a descriptive question.

The answer to a declaring question is a declaration for an event or improvement. During an analysis you check which consequences certain events during the game can have.

When you answer an opinion-related question, you reflect your opinion on a certain subject, or somebody else’s. With such questions, it’s not just about what you think, but also WHY you think that.

This last part is definitely not a necessity, but it just might be something some people can use

Then I shouldn’t have to explain how gathering all your data and such works.

That was pretty much what I wanted to add to the topic for now. Please comment.

[Swordsalmon]

There are different jobs, as the title of this “chapter” told you. There are fighters, healers, thieves and “dancers”. (If there are any “jobs” I missed, please tell me).

Would flier utility be considered a separate job? Although Peg Knights and Dragon Knights are technically fighters, they are the only class that never loses Movement and have high Aid.

[Tino]

I guess so. But that shouldn't really be hard to tell. I also mentioned the four "jobs" I listed weren't the only available "jobs".

They indeed have the advantage of having two jobs, just like promoted healers/magic users.

[Mekkah]

Would flier utility be considered a separate job? Although Peg Knights and Dragon Knights are technically fighters, they are the only class that never loses Movement and have high Aid.

Flying is the only reason Florina and Fiora are worth anything but Lower Mid or even Low. I would call it some kind of seperate job, but every seperate job is somewhat translatable in something resembling more resources. Matthew getting you a chest with a Silver Sword improves Raven's or Guy's offense. Ninian Dancing for Kent improves your mobility and offense. Priscilla using Barrier on Oswin improves your durability. etc

Same-ish with them. Fiora saving the village with the Warp staff gives you more mobility provides you have an A staff user. Florina flying around in 17x to get villages then talking to Fargus improves some aspects of your offense and fundings (Devil Axe, Lancereaver, etc) as well as your tactics rank.