ZephyrShakuraus vs. Mekkah

[ZephyrD]

I'm opening.

Coming soon.

[ZephyrD]

Good luck, Mekkah. Man the best debater win, but most importantly, let’s have some fun.

The first thing most people notice when looking at Kyle is that... he’s ugly. Not the ugliest character in the game, but he’s definitely in the bottom tier in terms of looks in this game. Not just ugly, but he doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

Now Cormag? He’s packing a badass scar, rippling arm muscles, definite bad boy. The type of guy that every hot girl wants and every ugly guy like Kyle complains about. “Baw, why do they only date the jerks and jocks.” Sorry Kyle, but you’re ugly, tough luck.

Cormag gets to bang Tana and Natasha, and he’s so badass that he’s probably doing both, quite possibly at the same time. Natasha’s a cleric and vowed celibacy sure, but Cormag is just so badass she can’t resist him.

Kyle? Well he’s probably gonna pass on the loli and Syrene probably wouldn’t dig a guy as ugly as him. Pretty-boy Forde is his closest and best buddy, comrade in arms, trained together, and quite possibly gay lover. Though, I’d question Forde’s taste in men if he was into an ugly guy like Kyle.

Cormag gets all the ladies and is so badass that in the Japanese version he was named Cougar.

Yes, that’s right, Cougar. A wild animal more likely to rip your face off and eat than look at you.

Kyle’s named after a character from South Park, which I guess is pretty cool, but he’s also much uglier than Kyle from South Park. I don’t watch South Park but if there hasn’t already been an episode with a cougar, it would likely involve the cougar eating Kenny, which is a lot cooler than saying “Oh my god, you killed Kenny, you bastard!”

Oh, yeah. Cougar also rides around on a fricken DRAGON, while ugly ol’ Kyle get’s to ride around on a plain old horse. Cormag wins for the most awesome mount ever, while Kyle is ugly and boring.

Cormag’s brother, Glen, is also badass. I assume their father and possibly mother are also equally badass, but I digress.

So, Cormag is badass and gets a lot of girls. Kyle is ugly and boring. I think it’s clear who is winning.

Now this game is pretty easy, and Ephraim’s mode is commonly considered the more difficult route, for the sake of fun and challenge (and it’s my personal favourite), how about we go that way? Ephraim is way cooler than Eirika too, so how does that sound?

Kyle comes originally in Chapter 5x, a chapter which the almighty Ephraim could possibly solo or damn near, but for this, Forde and Kyle will likely be helping out.

Now let’s look at Kyle and how he performs on 5x.

Steel Lance: 19.0 atk, 4.0 AS, 84.8 hit, 2.8 crit - - 14.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 9.0 def, 1.0 res, 6.0 critavo

Javelin: 15.0 atk, 6.0 AS, 79.8 hit, 2.8 crit - - 18.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 9.0 def, 1.0 res, 6.0 critavo

Iron Sword: 14.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 104.8 hit, 2.8 crit - - 20.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 9.0 def, 1.0 res, 6.0 critavo

Steel Sword: 17.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 89.8 hit, 2.8 crit - - 20.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 9.0 def, 1.0 res, 6.0 critavo

Killer Lance: 19.0 atk, 7.0 AS, 84.8 hit, 32.8 crit - - 20.0 avo, 25.0 hp, 9.0 def, 1.0 res, 6.0 critavo

Now, there’s quite a bit of competition for everything but Steel Lances (Just cause there’s 3 of them). Ephraim and Forde both would also want the Javelin, and Forde might want the Steel Sword if he wants to give up 1 AS. (Even with the single AS loss he has more than Kyle but it’s mostly Lancers on this chapter anyway) The Steel Lance is his most reliable weapon for this chapter.

I’m not going to go into much detail about his defenses, since it’d be pretty hard for him to die. His avoid is pretty lol, but enemy’s hit is also quite lol. I just wanna look into offense.

Steel Lance drops his AS to 4. This means he can double some unlucky Soldiers (~0-1AS) which have roughly 0 AS. He can’t double the Archers (~4-7AS), he can’t double Cavaliers(~5-7AS), he might not even be able to double some Knights(1-2AS). He might also get doubled by the Mercenary.(~10AS)

Even with his maximum of 7 AS, he can’t double the fighters with a Steel Sword, he still might not double the Archers. He can double the Knights, but does roughly 7 damage.(~10-11 DEF)

He’s not killing, he’s probably taking a few hits, maybe using a Vulnerary. Knights and Horses are best dealt with using Ephraim.

Forde’s not doing a heck of a lot better, and Ephraim’s destroying the map. I’m gonna be nice and give him about a level.

He returns in Chapter 8, but late enough that the only fighting he’s likely to see is some Cavaliers. He’s not one rounding them either. Probably not gonna have a level here.

Let’s say he gets one level in Chapter 9 putting him at around Level 7 when Cormag joins in Chapter 10.

He could have a C support with both Ephraim and Forde by now, but Kyle is just plain terrible when it comes to supporting since he doesn’t give any attack. Ephraim can get Full Attack and critical from his sister, Forde and Tana. Forde would get full attack from Ephraim, Franz and Eirika. Eirika’s unlikely to be much use in terms of supports since she’s gone for a good deal of the game.

Kyle’s ugly and nobody likes him. Looks like nothing is quite going well for him. Cormag’s new so he doesn’t have any supports yet either.

Kyle:

Iron Lance: 17.0 atk, 7.8 AS, 96.5 hit, 3.1 crit - - 22.0 avo, 26.7 hp, 9.5 def, 1.4 res, 6.4 critavo

Steel Lance: 20.0 atk, 4.8 AS, 86.5 hit, 3.1 crit - - 16.0 avo, 26.7 hp, 9.5 def, 1.4 res, 6.4 critavo

Javelin: 16.0 atk, 6.8 AS, 81.5 hit, 3.1 crit - - 20.0 avo, 26.7 hp, 9.5 def, 1.4 res, 6.4 critavo

Steel Sword: 18.0 atk, 7.8 AS, 91.5 hit, 3.1 crit - - 22.0 avo, 26.7 hp, 9.5 def, 1.4 res, 6.4 critavo

Cormag:

Iron Lance: 21.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 99.8 hit, 4.3 crit - - 24.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 12.0 def, 2.0 res, 4.0 critavo

Killer Lance: 24.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 89.8 hit, 34.3 crit - - 24.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 12.0 def, 2.0 res, 4.0 critavo

Well, it looks like Cormag has a nice win in offense and defense. More attack with an Iron Lance while holding a 5.2 AS lead. Bit more avoid, more HP and more DEF.

Cormag has the ability to get some Steel/Javelins after recruitment, but this chapter is pretty quick after he’s been recruited. Kyle might even get a killer, but Cormag still wins in offense.

Cormag has a highly desirable Affinity, until a certain ugly Cavalier that no one likes. Fire is Atk, Avoid and Crit. Pwnsauce for sure.

Cavaliers have ~5-6 AS, so it looks like Kyle’s not killing them. Pirates have 8-9 AS and while Kyle isn’t doubling or killing, Cormag isn’t doubling or killing either and he has WTD. Fighters have about 7 AS, aside from the Steel Axe one who is ~3. Kyle can only double that one and they’re probably dead before you’ve recruited Cormag. Myrmidon has ~13 AS and a Merc has ~11. Cormag doesn’t double but at least he’s not getting doubled like Kyle unless he equips a Steel Lance, which he doesn't even need to beat Kyle offensively.

Now you have both folks on your team and it’s time to start working on supports. Kyle has, well pretty much no one. Cormag has a nice strong Fire x Anima with Duessel and Seth. Who he an likely squeeze in can A and B with, respectively.

I’m getting tl;dr, so I’ll wrap up for now. I’ll deal with the rest of the game in my second post. Cougar is badass and kicks Kyle’s ass from the moment he joins. Cormag’s buddies help him pump up and pump out more attack later, while everyone’s off being with people who are significantly less ugly than Kyle.

Edit: typos

Edited November 25, 2008 by ZephyrShakuraus

[Mekkah]

Good luck, Mekkah. Man the best debater win, but most importantly, let’s have some fun.

I was planning on doing the same.

The first thing most people notice when looking at Kyle is that... he’s ugly. Not the ugliest character in the game, but he’s definitely in the bottom tier in terms of looks in this game. Not just ugly, but he doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

If Kyle is bottom tier for beauty, it is because girls in this game are too damn hot.

But why don't we ask the resident expert in beauty who is the more beautiful?

Well, Mr. Expert, here we have Kyle, loyal knight to Renais. He fights to defend beautiful people like Eirika and Ephraim, and he gets to procreate with Syrene for more beautyin the future!

Hoho! I would say Sir Kyle is quite the treasure! If I wasn't so busy staring at heron genitals all day, I would put him in a cage and examine him throroughly! All day long!

Now Cormag? He’s packing a badass scar, rippling arm muscles, definite bad boy. The type of guy that every hot girl wants and every ugly guy like Kyle complains about. “Baw, why do they only date the jerks and jocks.” Sorry Kyle, but you’re ugly, tough luck.

And what do you think of Cormag, a Grado dude who betrays his nation to fight with the army that originally fought him, to fight the nation his late brother originated from. And he rides a Dragon.

Eep! What a bad looking fellow! He is not worthy of being near my beauties! Please, take him away. I cannot bea...is that a Dragon?

Ugly as sin! It scares me! Guards, throw this man out I say!

Cormag gets to bang Tana and Natasha, and he’s so badass that he’s probably doing both, quite possibly at the same time. Natasha’s a cleric and vowed celibacy sure, but Cormag is just so badass she can’t resist him.

And once the war was over, Natasha sued him for his imprudence, and Tana leaked one of their sex tapes so that no one will ever want to see Cormag again. That's how life goes.

Kyle? Well he’s probably gonna pass on the loli and Syrene probably wouldn’t dig a guy as ugly as him. Pretty-boy Forde is his closest and best buddy, comrade in arms, trained together, and quite possibly gay lover. Though, I’d question Forde’s taste in men if he was into an ugly guy like Kyle.

Kyle obviously has his priorities straight. Emphasis on straight. Homies over hoes. Kill first, bang later. As you can see, he does indeed pass up the loli (she can go back to monk watching), and supports his "comrades in arms" faster than you can say "I fight for my friends", and then at the end of the game, he still gets to, er, support Syrene (the way he supports her probably involves shoving his dick in her).

Cormag gets all the ladies and is so badass that in the Japanese version he was named Cougar.

Yes, that’s right, Cougar. A wild animal more likely to rip your face off and eat than look at you.

But then the localizers figured the Americans were too dumb to know what a cougar is, and figured they'd better give him a name they would understand. So they picked the dumbest name ever, Cormag. Easily changable into Corfag, should we decide in the end that he is gay (he is, we just don't know it yet...until Tana releases sex tapes about threesomes with Duessel, that is)

Kyle’s named after a character from South Park

You got it reversed. South Park Kyle is named after Sacred Stones Kyle. A main character in one of the most watched shows ever. In which one of those does Corfag feature? Yeah, none, I thought so.

And before you go "lol south park came earlier than sacred stones", Kyle is obviously awesome enough to defy time and order of events.

Oh, yeah. Cougar also rides around on a fricken DRAGON, while ugly ol’ Kyle get’s to ride around on a plain old horse. Cormag wins for the most awesome mount ever, while Kyle is ugly and boring.

Did I mention Cormag has had to go back to the dragon garage sale like three times during the war to get a new dragon simply because Eliwood kept killing them (A DRAGON! STAY BACK EVERYONE!). Dragons always end up dead in the end. Horses get the best actions in the game.

Cormag’s brother, Glen, is also badass. I assume their father and possibly mother are also equally badass, but I digress.

Glen's badassery fits in a matchbox, and I could stow in Kyle's horse and it still would not be full. You know you're dense when you fight Valter with a Silver Sword, get doubled by someone who doesn't have 4 more Spd than you, and die to a critical. His troops didn't exactly find him worthy either. After Glen's pathetic death, they immediatly joined Valter, the real psychopatic badass.

I think it’s clear who is winning.

Indeed.

Now let's get to the boring stuff.

Now this game is pretty easy, and Ephraim’s mode is commonly considered the more difficult route, for the sake of fun and challenge (and it’s my personal favourite), how about we go that way? Ephraim is way cooler than Eirika too, so how does that sound?

Nice try, but no. Each route is equally as likely to be taken. 50% of the time, you'll go Ephraim, and 50%, you'll go Eirika. I say the reason why you want to Ephraim's so badly is because Cormag joins a full three chapters later on Eirika's. Granted, Kyle would rather go Ephraim route too, since it gets him an Ephraim support, but he is not impeded as much by it as Cormag. I will, however, continue to prove Kyle wins on Ephraim route. Logic dictates that if Cormag cannot win on the route where he's relatively best, he definitely cannot win on Eirika's route.

Kyle comes originally in Chapter 5x, a chapter which the almighty Ephraim could possibly solo or damn near, but for this, Forde and Kyle will likely be helping out.

Moreso than helping out, Kyle is allowed to get his fair share of kills, namely about a third of the whole map. If you go Eirika's route, it'd be even better to give him HALF of the kills, since Ephraim will be autoleveled when he comes back in Scorching Sand. Obviously there's no reason to let Orson get anything.

We're looking at a chapter with enemies that average about L4, while Kyle starts as L5. There's roughly 27 enemies, so that's 9 kills for Kyle on Ephraim route, 13-14 on Eirika route. He is definitely getting two levels at least. But, since neither Kyle and Forde are one rounding everything (Fighters, Archers mostly), and Steel Lance Ephraim isn't either, that's closer to 3 levels. We can round it out with a boss that gives some more EXP whenever you attack him, and a full level you get when you kill him, which each of the three Renaisians can do. So in the end, Kyle is most likely to be L8.

I’m not going to go into much detail about his defenses, since it’d be pretty hard for him to die. His avoid is pretty lol, but enemy’s hit is also quite lol. I just wanna look into offense.

Gee, I wonder why you do not want to get into defenses?

Kyle - 25 HP/9 Def, swords/lances

Forde - 24 HP/8 Def, swords/lances

Eph - 23 HP/7 Def, lances

And yes, when he uses Steel Lance, sux to be his AS. But he's not locked to it - when he needs more AS, he can use Killer Lance (he and Forde are the only ones who need it, since Ephraim has Reginhax). Also, he's the best dude for using Steel Sword, since Forde would like to keep full AS, and this way Kyle does more damage than with Iron too. You can also easily swap weapons around between them. He does more damage than Forde whenever neither or both double, which is the majority of the cases.

Kyle is by no means doing worse than Forde, and while Ephraim wins against most things, he needs some horse help against the Fighters, and him doing everything on his own would slow you down drastically. So Kyle being here is a good thing.

He returns in Chapter 8, but late enough that the only fighting he’s likely to see is some Cavaliers. He’s not one rounding them either. Probably not gonna have a level here.

Um, late? They join on turn 2, and quite far away from the others. Forde and Kyle could easily take the corridor up north to the throne by themselves if they wanted to. Obviously they can be nice and wait for half of Eirika's group if they want to, but they don't have to. Ephraim's probably doing some Cavalier work, then coming along.

Let’s say he gets one level in Chapter 9 putting him at around Level 7 when Cormag joins in Chapter 10.

That's laughable. 1 level is too few even for a normal chapter, but 5x is one of the, if not the best EXP opportunity in the game. Fort Rigwald is quite big too, and Kyle/Forde can get to enemies before others can pretty often. Kyle is also one of your more durable dudes, so he gets more enemy phase action than, say, Lute.

With that in mind, I can see him getitng 1.5 level in Ch9, but we'll be nice and say 1. So 3 from 5x, 1 from 8 and 1 from 9 gives him five level ups. This means Kyle is L10 in Ch10. But but but Cormag is a noob and joins when the map is pretty much over, so he will be closer to 11. FEA has Kyle one level too high, so the stats I'm pulling now are for L12.

Before we get to a comparison, obviously supports should be addressed.

He could have a C support with both Ephraim and Forde by now, but Kyle is just plain terrible when it comes to supporting since he doesn’t give any attack. Ephraim can get Full Attack and critical from his sister, Forde and Tana. Forde would get full attack from Ephraim, Franz and Eirika. Eirika’s unlikely to be much use in terms of supports since she’s gone for a good deal of the game.

For Forde, Kyle is his fastest support, and it's equally as ideal as Kent x Sain movement and speed wise. And Kyle and Ephraim (and Vanessa, but that support is his slowest, and by a good amount) are the only ways Forde is getting more Avo, and Avo is crucial to get through supports. Franz is probably going for A Seth and Eirika isn't on this route.

Ephraim's other supports all join significantly later than Forde. Also, he wants more Avo/Def much more badly than he wants more offense. His AS and Str are already enormous, and Reginleif assures that the toughest enemies (armors and mounties) get their ass OHKOed anyway. His entire list, except for Duessel, doesn't give him Avo. So he definitely wants Kyle's Ice affinity. Myrrh and L'Arachel can obviously be excluded for obvious reasons, and Tana only gives him extra offense, and only after the end of Ch9 at that.

So Kyle is definitely getting A Forde/B Ephraim. Also, if they all follow suit, you get a support triangle, and those are handy. You can set them up in seperate sections of the map, rather than having to turtle everyone together to get a support chain. Since FE8 maps are actually quite big, this is handy.

Given how long 5x and FE8 maps in general take, I can easily see them having Bs together now, but we'll be nice to Cormag and pretend it's only Cs. Let's go.

11/0 Kyle - C Ephraim, C Kyle

Iron Lance: 20.0 atk, 9.4 AS, 110.1 hit, 8.9 crit - - 33.0 avo, 30.1 hp, 11.5 def, 3.2 res, 14.2 critavo

Steel Sword: 21.0 atk, 9.4 AS, 110.1 hit, 8.9 crit - - 33.0 avo

Javelin: 19.0 atk, 8.4 AS, 95.1 hit, 8.9 crit - - 31.0 avo

9/0 Cormag

Iron Lance: 21.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 99.8 hit, 4.3 crit - - 24.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 12.0 def, 2.0 res, 4.0 critavo

Javelin: 20.0 atk, 10.0 AS, 84.8 hit, 4.3 crit - - 24.0 avo

They're looking quite evenly matched. Steel Sword Kyle ties Iron Lance Cormag in Atk. Cormag has .6 more AS, but that's not going to help him. 10 more hit actually does matter at this point, like it or not, especially since they're mostly facing Mercs (and later, Gargoyles).

On the defense, they tie HP, Cormag wins .5 def (lol), but loses everything else. 1.2 res isn't much, but it's there. 9 avo is pretty huge when you take into account the 2-RN system and how many hits it takes before these die (allowing the chances to come out with less damage to increase faster for Kyle). Even the CEV is important. Something like a Thunder Mage with 8 Skl would have 5% chance to crit Cormag and kill him, but wouldn't have that on Kyle at all.

Also, Cormag is sitting pretty on his wyvern, but that also means he cannot sit on a forest for 20% avo/1 def, or on a fort for 20% avo/2 def/healing. And it gives bows triple Mt on him, which is extraordinarily lame. Steel Bow has 27 Mt on him. Even without taking the Archer's Str into account, Cormag gets 2HKOed by this already. They do like 6 damage to Kyle, if that.

Now, for Cormag's supports. Duessel is fine for this route, he can get that. If Tana is in play, she would give him Wind affinity bonuses, which are lame, and it also means his flyingawesomeness is crippled (if someone else can do what he does, that makes it less unique, so less good), and it also means competition for the Fili Shield, which is stiff already with Vanessa being God tier and all. Natasha doesn't benefit from supporting him, since she's a healer, and she's also the worse of the two earlygame ones. And she has three earlier supports too. Arthur is obviously going for A Lute, and can score a B with Neimi/Joshua. Seth has four earlier supports, though one of them is Eirika, but it's still superfast and helps her a lot for earlygame, etc.

He might get full supports, but they're not as kickass as Kyle's.

Then, on Eirika route, Cormag joins at the end of 13 rather than the end of 10, and Duessel is too crappy to be viable for play. So he'll get raped rather than beaten.

edit: Oliver's beauty was stretching the page

Edited November 25, 2008 by Mekkah