wyvern lord Wyvern Lord character tier list

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, it really is quite easy to get Dimitri to Wyvern. If you normally get him Death Blow (I do!) then you've done a significant chunk of the work already - see Yuri, but now the flying is neutral instead of a bane. And since Dimitri is a stat monster who can crush things in any class (either with his player phase or his Battalion Wrath/Vantage build), doesn't it make sense to give him high mobility so he can reach things more easily to crush them? I'd argue that puts Wyvern into a top three class choice for him (Paladin, of course, is a classic choice as well, and may often be preferred just because AM is light on flying battalions, but it really does depend on that... if you're only using 0-1 other wyverns, then I'd argue it becomes Dimitri's best class by quite a bit, bane be damned).

Blue Lions are interesting, in that, while there's just one obvious flier (Falcon Knight Ingrid), pretty much every other unit is at least considerable in a flying build. Wyvern Rider -> Lord is arguably Sylvain's best path, certainly a considerable one for Felix and Ashe, and even Dedue can rage against his Flight bane to go for flying Vengeance. Mercedes can totally go Dark Flier, while Annette can make a case on either a wyvern or a black pegasus. In-house, Dimitri is probably the least-suited to go flier... but who cares? He's gonna do really well if he makes it in.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

When I watched a "everyone is in a class associated with their banes" run, Wyvern Lord Yuri was one of the strongest units. He needs more training in axe/flying than most wyverns, but on the other hand the authority boon is cool. And Wyvern Rider, it cannot be stressed enough, is just way too forgiving a class to qualify for. If you're planning to go for D+ axes anyway (for Death Blow), then getting to C axe / C flying for a ~45% certification rate is just another 420 exp... easily gained even with a bane. And from there it's not too had to reach B+/B for Wyvern Lord, especially with your class pushing you along. Like... maybe you get there a level or two later, but that's okay.

Yeah, that all makes sense.

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'd go so far as to argue that it's easier to qualify for Wyvern Rider with two banes than it is to qualify for Sniper/Swordmaster/Warrior/Grappler/Bishop/Warlock while being neutral in the relevant skill. With only one bane it's easier still, and therefore...

Monofocal A-rank Advanced classes were a mistake. As was Wyvern Rider's weirdly low C Flight requirement. "But male units can't go Pegasus Knight, they need the lower barrier-of-entry!" Then how about letting male units go Pegasus Knight?

Edited October 26, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typo.

[lenticular]

 On 10/25/2021 at 3:44 AM, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Re: Wyvern Rider vs. Lord, my experience has been that, given enough time in Wyvern Rider, a unit's Flight skill level will climb enough through regular combat to at least give good odds at Wyvern Lord certification. That said, units with a bane might not gain enough through battle alone for this to work out. And Rallybot Ignatz presents a particular problem, as he won't be gaining Flight rank when he rallies (same for Rallybot Annette, granted). War Master is probably his stronger choice (in light of Faire and a crit-boost on gauntlet attacks, particularly One-Two Punch), and it's certainly lower-effort than Wyvern Lord, but there may be cases where he'd favor the mobility of wyvern classes.

For Alois in particular, you're not just working against the bane but also starting off further behind. Typically speaking, I will get most of my would-be wyverns to C rank flying to have a guaranteed certification the instant they hit level 20. 10 levels worth of combat experience to climb up to (for instance) B rank flying then seems reasonable. With Alois, I'm imaging that you'd maybe get him into Wyvern Rider at something like D rank flying at level 23. That would give you only 7 levels worth of combat if you're trying to certify for Wyvern Lord immediatley at level 30, and would have him needing to go from D to B which is about 50% more wexp than going from C to B.

3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

(Paladin, of course, is a classic choice as well, and may often be preferred just because AM is light on flying battalions, but it really does depend on that... if you're only using 0-1 other wyverns, then I'd argue it becomes Dimitri's best class by quite a bit, bane be damned).

Which does raise an interesting question: what is the optimal number of fliers to run, and to what extent does this vary by route? I know that I typically run either 3 or 4. Usually I'll have one each of Wyvern Lord, Falcon Knight and Dark Flier, then sometimes a duplicate of one of them or Claude as Barbarosa if I'm doing Verdant Wind. That isn't really based on trying to optimise, though, and is more because I find class diversity fun and having everyone in the same class to be boring. Even so, by that point, I'm finding that I'm getting diminishing returns on the extra utility that flight offers. Extra mobility is always good, but the amount you gain from adding a first flier to a party of infantry is massively more than what you gain from going from three fliers to four, for instance. Then there's the eternal problem of flying battalions, which further disincentivises adding too many fliers.

This means I mostly judge units' wyvern potential based not on how good they are in the class but on how much they gain from it compared to other units, though I do recognise this isn't the only way of approaching the question. So, how many fliers does everyone else tend to run? And do you do so based purely on optimal performance, or do you have other subjective criteria like I do?

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Monofocal A-rank Advanced classes were a mistake. As was Wyvern Rider's weirdly low C Flight requirement. "But male units can't go Pegasus Knight, they need the lower barrier-of-entry!" Then how about letting male units go Pegasus Knight?

I think that the existence of monofocal classes is fine; I think the problem with them is how steep the certification penalty is for not reaching the target. Just changing it from 40% drop-off per missing weapon level to 32% (to match other advanced classes) would make it much more practical to certify at only B rank , which would make the requirement much less onerous.

For Wyvern Rider, I almost wonder if they should have just moved it down to Intermediate tier. Get rid of Axefaire, nerf its stats, change the requirements to be equivalent to Pegasus Knight, and then give it a better class mastery. I quite like with Pegasus/Falcon Knights that there isn't a natural option for Advance tier, which means that you have a character that is super strong in Intermediate tier, then mediocre in Advance tier, before becoming super strong again in Master tier. It could have been interesting if they'd made that just be a thing for fliers. I generally enjoy having different characters and different class lines have their peaks and troughs at different times, since it means that more characters have their time to shine rather than just having a single character be "the best" for the entire duration of the game.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

19 hours ago, lenticular said:

I think that the existence of monofocal classes is fine; I think the problem with them is how steep the certification penalty is for not reaching the target. Just changing it from 40% drop-off per missing weapon level to 32% (to match other advanced classes) would make it much more practical to certify at only B rank , which would make the requirement much less onerous.

This change could help a bit. Another reform I've considered is lowering most of the required ranks, but also removing the chance-based certification system. So Grappler, for instance, would be guaranteed at B+ Gauntlets (but never before), while Paladin demands C+ each in Lances and Riding.

19 hours ago, lenticular said:

For Wyvern Rider, I almost wonder if they should have just moved it down to Intermediate tier. Get rid of Axefaire, nerf its stats, change the requirements to be equivalent to Pegasus Knight, and then give it a better class mastery. I quite like with Pegasus/Falcon Knights that there isn't a natural option for Advance tier, which means that you have a character that is super strong in Intermediate tier, then mediocre in Advance tier, before becoming super strong again in Master tier. It could have been interesting if they'd made that just be a thing for fliers. I generally enjoy having different characters and different class lines have their peaks and troughs at different times, since it means that more characters have their time to shine rather than just having a single character be "the best" for the entire duration of the game.

Conversely, I find that Pegasus in Intermediate, and Wyvern Rider in Advanced, hearkens back to the Archanea games. Wherein, a Pegasus Knight promoting into a Dracoknight was totally the norm. So I'd keep Wyvern Rider largely the same (maybe a touch slower).

In the Master Tier, though, I'd play with Wyvern Lord, so that it becomes a hybrid "flying/armor" class. I think this came up on another thread. Compared to Wyvern Rider, it'd be slower and have the same move. But it'd also be physically bulkier (only behind Great Knight and Fortress), and output more damage. Remove Avoid +10, but add a built-in Heartseeker to help hit adjacent foes. This way it's doing something different than just being "Wyvern Rider, but better".

19 hours ago, lenticular said:

For Alois in particular, you're not just working against the bane but also starting off further behind. Typically speaking, I will get most of my would-be wyverns to C rank flying to have a guaranteed certification the instant they hit level 20. 10 levels worth of combat experience to climb up to (for instance) B rank flying then seems reasonable. With Alois, I'm imaging that you'd maybe get him into Wyvern Rider at something like D rank flying at level 23. That would give you only 7 levels worth of combat if you're trying to certify for Wyvern Lord immediatley at level 30, and would have him needing to go from D to B which is about 50% more wexp than going from C to B.

You have a point, for sure, that his late join time hurts him here. On the other hand, his Wyvern Lord chances are helped by having A Axes out the gate, so he never has to be tutored in them. That said, I don't see the need for him to certify in Wyvern Lord as soon as level 30 for this to be a good path for him. Wyvern Rider will still be more mobile for him than any other options - albeit at the cost of certain battalions, and making gauntlet-use tricky. 

19 hours ago, lenticular said:

This means I mostly judge units' wyvern potential based not on how good they are in the class but on how much they gain from it compared to other units, though I do recognise this isn't the only way of approaching the question. So, how many fliers does everyone else tend to run? And do you do so based purely on optimal performance, or do you have other subjective criteria like I do?

My current VW Maddening playthrough has 3 fliers: Barbarossa Claude, Wyvern Lord Hilda, and Dark Flier Constance. I'd originally planned for Teach to go Falcon Knight, but blanching at all the Faculty Training I would need, I've settled for her as a speedy Assassin instead. At times, another flier feels as though they'd be nice - Galatea Pegasus Co. is gathering dust, while Alliance Wyvern Co. (Impregnable Wall) usually finds itself on one of my grounded units. Maybe I should've made use of Seteth? Regardless, 3 fliers is at least passable, and I haven't had trouble bum-rushing certain kill-boss maps, like WC 12 (1 turn) or VW 17 (2 turns).

[lenticular]

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

This change could help a bit. Another reform I've considered is lowering most of the required ranks, but also removing the chance-based certification system. So Grappler, for instance, would be guaranteed at B+ Gauntlets (but never before), while Paladin demands C+ each in Lances and Riding.

Conversely, I find that Pegasus in Intermediate, and Wyvern Rider in Advanced, hearkens back to the Archanea games. Wherein, a Pegasus Knight promoting into a Dracoknight was totally the norm. So I'd keep Wyvern Rider largely the same (maybe a touch slower).

In the Master Tier, though, I'd play with Wyvern Lord, so that it becomes a hybrid "flying/armor" class. I think this came up on another thread. Compared to Wyvern Rider, it'd be slower and have the same move. But it'd also be physically bulkier (only behind Great Knight and Fortress), and output more damage. Remove Avoid +10, but add a built-in Heartseeker to help hit adjacent foes. This way it's doing something different than just being "Wyvern Rider, but better".

All of which is entirely reasonable. I think it's all born out of a feeling that what we got just isn't quite right somehow and could have done with being tweaked a little. The exact nature and direction of the tweak is up for debate and there are probably multiple potential changes that would have worked well. I really wish that modding on Switch were less onerous, because I would love to try my hands at a vanilla+ or community balance patch style of mod if it weren't. Oh well.

3 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

You have a point, for sure, that his late join time hurts him here. On the other hand, his Wyvern Lord chances are helped by having A Axes out the gate, so he never has to be tutored in them. That said, I don't see the need for him to certify in Wyvern Lord as soon as level 30 for this to be a good path for him. Wyvern Rider will still be more mobile for him than any other options - albeit at the cost of certain battalions, and making gauntlet-use tricky. 

It's definitely a reasonable choice, for sure. My point was mostly that you aren't just comparing Wyvern Rider against Warrior/Grappler and Wyvern Lord against War Master, but that there are several levels where you'll be comparing Wyvern Rider against War Master. Of course, there are a few circumstances (mainly "I have no other fliers") where Wyvern Rider would still be the prefered choice, but I think I would mostly prefer War Master.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

It's definitely a reasonable choice, for sure. My point was mostly that you aren't just comparing Wyvern Rider against Warrior/Grappler and Wyvern Lord against War Master, but that there are several levels where you'll be comparing Wyvern Rider against War Master. Of course, there are a few circumstances (mainly "I have no other fliers") where Wyvern Rider would still be the prefered choice, but I think I would mostly prefer War Master.

This one may vary from map-to-map, too (the ability to freely change between classes in 3H is under-explored and, IMO, underappreciated). Even if I have Alois plying Gauntlet classes most of the time, building Flight rank for a Wyvern Rider "backup build" could be very welcome for, let's say, Claude's paralogue.

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

All of which is entirely reasonable. I think it's all born out of a feeling that what we got just isn't quite right somehow and could have done with being tweaked a little. The exact nature and direction of the tweak is up for debate and there are probably multiple potential changes that would have worked well. I really wish that modding on Switch were less onerous, because I would love to try my hands at a vanilla+ or community balance patch style of mod if it weren't. Oh well.

Agreed re: Mods. I would absolutely give the one that gender-unlocks classes a try, at least. Not to mention, it'd be nice to have "zero-percent-growths" as a real option. Or a version of Maddening Mode that foregoes same-turn reinforcements.

[Barren]

What would have also been nice is if there was a “fixed growths” run like what PoR did once you beat the game.

I know that New Mystery of the Emblem did Lunatic Reverse but I don’t think that everyone having Vantage+ on maddening would be a welcome challenge.