Hero Class

[Bylift]

4 hours ago, Barren said:

I’m at the end of silver snow maddening myself and I’ve spent 4 out of the 5 weekends cooking using the best of fodlan boosting everyone’s stats by 4. I guess I got lucky with the ingredients needed for it to work. The last week I had Petra master Wyvern Lord to get defiant crit. She already has defiant avoid so I’m thinking on using both along with alert stance+ of course.

Awesome. I tend to get stuck in my ruts of farming things that get me strength boosters and not Zanado Treasure Fruits, and I don't like to fish so I seldom have Goddess Messengers.

What you did is optimal. Nice!

[Bylift]

13 minutes ago, RaIsMyPet said:

And for your build, I imagine you have a hard time killing armors. What I'm trying to say is there is a super optimized build, with basically no grinding.

People can choose whatever aspect to look at. Maybe I shouldn't phrase it in that way to sound arrogant. I apologize. Please bear with me since my post will take some time to write up.

1 - It's true I probably would have had a hard time with Armors, but interestingly there are none on SS Ch. 21(!), or the dubstep map either (EDIT - I guess great knights count so strike that). Obviously a rapier dodge tank is better for those. Rapiers are OP

2 - It's all good man things come across certain ways when read vs. spoken. I appreciate the spirited discussion with people like me who know way too much about a silly game 🙂

Edited April 15, 2022 by Bylift
Lack of coffee

[RaIsMyPet]

7 minutes ago, Bylift said:

1 - It's true I probably would have had a hard time with Armors, but interestingly there are none on SS Ch. 21(!), or the dubstep map either. Obviously a rapier dodge tank is better for those. Rapiers are OP

2 - It's all good man things come across certain ways when read vs. spoken. I appreciate the spirited discussion with people like me who know way too much about a silly game 🙂

Cool! Hopefully you would still be there to discuss the details when my post is up.

[DaveCozy]

I read the 2nd and 3rd page and I'm generally surprised that so many don't like Vantage and Battalion Wrath and dismissed Rengor's notes, which I've personally found to be very helpful (for the most part).

It's true that eventually you can get more consistent ways of dodging, but the point of the above is moreso that it creates a low investment unit without having to master Mercenary. That's why it's useful, not because it's something you stick with till the end of the game, it's because it's something that is there before the better builds are available.

Managing battalion endurance is a chore, yes, but it's not actually difficult. It's just work is all. Managing HP is actually really easy in this game, specially when Blessing and guard adjutants exist. It's an extra easy chore on top of an annoying chore, but it does really pay off. Admittedly, the biggest issue is gambits, which you have to watch out for.

You technically don't need those combos if you don't like them, but they are definitely effective due to the sheer damage output they have, and shouldn't be dismissed like a niche just cuz they take work.

Edited May 2, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

 

13 minutes ago, DaveCozy said:

I read the 2nd and 3rd page and I'm generally surprised that so many don't like Vantage and Battalion Wrath and dismissed Rengor's notes, which I've personally found to be very helpful (for the most part).

It's true that eventually you can get more consistent ways of dodging, but the point of the above is moreso that it creates a low investment unit without having to master Mercenary. That's why it's useful, not because it's something you stick with till the end of the game, it's because it's something that is there before the better builds are available.

Managing battalion endurance is a chore, yes, but it's not actually difficult. It's just work is all. Managing HP is actually really easy in this game, specially when Blessing and guard adjutants exist. It's an extra easy chore on top of an annoying chore, but it does really pay off. Admittedly, the biggest issue is gambits, which you have to watch out for.

You technically don't need those combos if you don't like them, but they are definitely effective due to the sheer damage output they have, and shouldn't be dismissed like a niche just cuz they take work.

The problem with Vantage/Battalion Wrath is that it takes the worst of two worlds; the need to have low HP for Vantage, and the need for your battalion to be low on endurance for Battalion Wrath. When I'm already very hesitant to recommend Vantage/Wrath, a combination that has all the problems it has and even more only looks worse.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

The problem with Vantage/Battalion Wrath is that it takes the worst of two worlds; the need to have low HP for Vantage, and the need for your battalion to be low on endurance for Battalion Wrath. When I'm already very hesitant to recommend Vantage/Wrath, a combination that has all the problems it has and even more only looks worse.

I wouldn't say it's the worst... High maintenance high reward is a better term.

Setting up low HP is seriously easy like I said, even the enemy can give you a hand with poison strike or you can use devil weapons and relics (for non-crest bearers). Once that is done you're hitting the enemy back first with a gambit like retribution helping you. And with very high crit rate. That's why Vantage and (B) Wrath work so well, moreso in 3H than in past games since it's very possible to stack crit up to 100 with other abilities or forged weapons. When you're critting back consistently everything save for debatably armors and monsters die in 1 hit.

If you have Battalion Wrath then that's where you need to plan ahead to get one at the endurance threshold. Should point out that most B rank battalions have 35 endurance at 1/3rd which is still quite significant and can work for multiple maps before being depleted. Obviously regular Wrath is preferable but that takes mastering Warrior first.

I do admit all that takes setup, and work, but again. The damage is very well worth it. The "downsides" balance themselves out.

Edit; worth repeating but obviously Hero isn't a good class later as a whole. What I'm arguing is that it's useful at the point it becomes available, which is going to be before better enemy bait classes like Wyvern Lord and War Master are available.

If anything Defiant Strength alone is worth the mastery, since I've already established it's quite easy to control how and when you get damaged compared to managing Battalion endurance, so it's a free mt boost long term.

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

I wouldn't say it's the worst... High maintenance high reward is a better term.

Setting up low HP is seriously easy like I said, even the enemy can give you a hand with poison strike or you can use devil weapons and relics (for non-crest bearers). Once that is done you're hitting the enemy back first with a gambit like retribution helping you. And with very high crit rate. That's why Vantage and (B) Wrath work so well, moreso in 3H than in past games since it's very possible to stack crit up to 100 with other abilities or forged weapons. When you're critting back consistently everything save for debatably armors and monsters die in 1 hit.

If you have Battalion Wrath then that's where you need to plan ahead to get one at the endurance threshold. Should point out that most B rank battalions have 35 endurance at 1/3rd which is still quite significant and can work for multiple maps before being depleted. Obviously regular Wrath is preferable but that takes mastering Warrior first.

I do admit all that takes setup, and work, but again. The damage is very well worth it. The "downsides" balance themselves out.

You're ignoring the fact that Vantage/Wrath isn't consistent. There's too much stuff that counters it for it to be reliable. And then you consider that Vantage/B.Wrath shares all those problems, as well as constantly requiring you to set it up over and over again as you have to switch battalions every other fight or so because you have to constantly take damage, which has your battalion take damage as well if it was from battle - and there's not much room between "red battalion" and "retreated battalion", which would render all the setup it took meaningless. That does not sound worth it at all. That sounds more like "awesome but impractical" than "high-maintenance, high-reward".

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

If anything Defiant Strength alone is worth the mastery, since I've already established it's quite easy to control how and when you get damaged compared to managing Battalion endurance.

I would disagree here too. It's very hard for me to defend Defiant whatever as being worth an ability slot when it probably makes my overall build worse than it'd be without it.

[DaveCozy]

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You're ignoring the fact that Vantage/Wrath isn't consistent. There's too much stuff that counters it for it to be reliable

Please expand on that then. Gambits are the only legitimate concerning thing I can think of that counter that combo supported by retribution, which can also be played around with other units in your party to deal with the enemies that have battalions.

What is the other stuff that I am missing?

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

you consider that Vantage/B.Wrath shares all those problems, as well as constantly requiring you to set it up over and over again as you have to switch battalions every other fight or so because you have to constantly take damage, which has your battalion take damage as well if it was from battle - and there's not much room between "red battalion" and "retreated battalion", which would render all the setup it took meaningless. That does not sound worth it at all. That sounds more like "awesome but impractical" than "high-maintenance, high-reward

I already addressed this on my post.

B rank battalions have 35 endurance at 1/3rd health. You only need to be attacked once to reach under 50% HP realistically in Maddening.

A battalion loses 1/2 health of the damage the unit takes, so you'd have to lose 70 HP in one hit for said battalion to retreat from 35 endurance. Realistically speaking you don't have any units near that number in HP stats by the point Hero is relevant. And it only counts damage done in combat too, so as I said things like Poison Strike can help you further without affecting battalion endurance.

You're greatly exaggerating how often you're actually switching battalions, you just have to enter combat and get hit once to reach that threshold per map, and you can even mitigate that with self-damaging out of battle attributes too. Even if that's a concern you can also go for Defensive Tactics as an ability (curiously it becomes available at B rank authority), which reduces the endurance lost by 1/4th of damage taken, further giving you more maps to use it on.

Also like I said, the end goal as well isn't to stick with B Wrath in a build like this either, unless you're Dmitri. So it's not like you rely on Battalion abilities till endgame either, you use them until you get better abilities that take more investment. Meaning you want to replace it with Wrath at some point. You're not going to need to manage battalion endurance forever, it's just something that is useful for a part of the game.

Remember, B Wrath is a C Rank authority ability for some units, super low investment. Wrath on the other hand is Warrior mastery which is higher certification req and class use. And that's just Wrath too, you can replace with Quick Riposte or similar things you prefer. Point is all those things, admittedly better than Battalion abilities, still come much later.

41 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

would disagree here too. It's very hard for me to defend Defiant whatever as being worth an ability slot when it probably makes my overall build worse than it'd be without it

Again, please elaborate?

+8 damage from defiant str, mag, avo or crit for that matter on both player and enemy phase is great otherwise, especially when reaching that threshold is easy. Just don't get hit afterwards to the point that you'll die.

Obviously I'm also ignoring the pointless defiant defense and similar abilities too, those do suck

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Please expand on that then. Gambits are the only legitimate concerning thing I can think of that counter that combo supported by retribution, which can also be played around with other units in your party to deal with the enemies that have battalions.

What is the other stuff that I am missing?

Siege weapons, like ballistae for example. (As a bonus, Retribution does nothing against them) Monsters. (For context, most monsters either have barriers that null crits altogether, or higher avoid against swords, lances, and axes) Anything too bulky to OHKO with a crit. Or even... Misses. The point is, when your build requires low HP to work, inconsistency means you're inviting death. Also, Retribution is gated behind A rank battalions on all routes but one. And on the one route that this is NOT the case? Well...

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

I already addressed this on my post.

B rank battalions have 35 endurance at 1/3rd health. You only need to be attacked once to reach under 50% HP realistically in Maddening.

A battalion loses 1/2 health of the damage the unit takes, so you'd have to lose 70 HP in one hit for said battalion to retreat from 35 endurance. Realistically speaking you don't have any units near that number in HP stats by the point Hero is relevant. And it only counts damage done in combat too, so as I said things like Poison Strike can help you further without affecting battalion endurance.

You're greatly exaggerating how often you're actually switching battalions, you just have to enter combat and get hit once to reach that threshold per map, and you can even mitigate that with self-damaging out of battle attributes too. Even if that's a concern you can also go for Defensive Tactics as an ability (curiously it becomes available at B rank authority), which reduces the endurance lost by 1/4th of damage taken, further giving you more maps to use it on.

Also like I said, the end goal as well isn't to stick with B Wrath in a build like this either, unless you're Dmitri. So it's not like you rely on Battalion abilities till endgame either, you use them until you get better abilities that take more investment. Meaning you want to replace it with Wrath at some point. You're not going to need to manage battalion endurance forever, it's just something that is useful for a part of the game.

Remember, B Wrath is a C Rank authority ability for some units, super low investment. Wrath on the other hand is Warrior mastery which is higher certification req and class use. And that's just Wrath too, you can replace with Quick Riposte or similar things you prefer. Point is all those things, admittedly better than Battalion abilities, still come much later.

Unfortunately, Poison Strike means that you're also taking damage from whatever attacked you, as if the attacker whiffs their attack, it does nothing. Also, most self-damaging stuff requires the user to participate in combat.

Am I? I'd sooner believe you're downplaying all its flaws. Depending on the unit, that damage they take to get into Vantage range could lop off 1/3 of the battalion's endurance at least (assuming they're already at the BW threshold). This means you can only do this twice assuming you never got hit again afterward before needing to swap battalions and needing to set it up again. Yeah, no. I am not convinced this is worth it.

Speaking of, on the one route where Retribution is not locked to A rank battalions, you have Dimitri, whose BV/BW combo is MUCH more user-friendly, and actually good. Also, Vantage/Wrath isn't that good in this game for reasons already stated.

Honestly, B.Wrath is only really useful with B.Vantage.

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Again, please elaborate?

+8 damage from defiant str, mag, avo or crit for that matter on both player and enemy phase is great otherwise, especially when reaching that threshold is easy. Just don't get hit afterwards to the point that you'll die.

Obviously I'm also ignoring the pointless defiant defense and similar abilities too, those do suck

It's very hard to set up without going out of your way to do so, and unless you're building around them, you're better off running a more generic, and more useful ability.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Siege weapons, like ballistae for example. (As a bonus, Retribution does nothing against them) Monsters. (For context, most monsters either have barriers that null crits altogether, or higher avoid against swords, lances, and axes) Anything too bulky to OHKO with a crit. Or even... Misses. The point is, when your build requires low HP to work, inconsistency means you're inviting death. Also, Retribution is gated behind A rank battalions on all routes but one. And on the one route that this is NOT the case? Well...

Unfortunately, Poison Strike means that you're also taking damage from whatever attacked you, as if the attacker whiffs their attack, it does nothing. Also, most self-damaging stuff requires the user to participate in combat.

Am I? I'd sooner believe you're downplaying all its flaws. Depending on the unit, that damage they take to get into Vantage range could lop off 1/3 of the battalion's endurance at least (assuming they're already at the BW threshold). This means you can only do this twice assuming you never got hit again afterward before needing to swap battalions and needing to set it up again. Yeah, no. I am not convinced this is worth it.

Speaking of, on the one route where Retribution is not locked to A rank battalions, you have Dimitri, whose BV/BW combo is MUCH more user-friendly, and actually good. Also, Vantage/Wrath isn't that good in this game for reasons already stated.

Honestly, B.Wrath is only really useful with B.Vantage.

It's very hard to set up without going out of your way to do so, and unless you're building around them, you're better off running a more generic, and more useful ability.

There's units who have Authority boons and easy ways to run the indech sword fighters by chapter 10. Even before that honestly. Reaching A authority is not an issue at all with those units. Every route has one too.

Missing isn't an issue when you have hit+20 to boost accuracy. That is why that ability is important on basically every combat unit you're using (unless you have Valkyrie).

You can gambit monsters and break their barriers, and they have really low movement anyway so staying out of their range to let the rest of your team deal with them first isn't hard. Ditto with armors. That's what the rest of your team is for, to deal with those enemies.

Ballista is easy to deal with too with tools like warp and just generally having good movement units to kill the archer or sniper. Only a few chapters have multiple ballista that I can think of (ch12 CF) where you really might have trouble but those are more exceptions than anything off the top of my head. But again, you have other units for that. It's a group of units you're using after all, even with enemy bait and low HP builds... That is still true.

But you do you mate. There's absolutely value to low-HP strats, but if you don't like them then that's fine. Doesn't mean the damage boost isn't worth it and they don't have value just cuz you don't like them though

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaveCozy

[lenticular]

12 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

It's true that eventually you can get more consistent ways of dodging, but the point of the above is moreso that it creates a low investment unit without having to master Mercenary.

For me, part of the problem is that the build has its flaws, and while they can all be addressed through one means or another, addressing them stops it from being a such a low investment build. Maybe you're spending a turn or two setting up at the start of each battle, you're using either a guard adjutant or the Blessing gambit in the process, you're also using a Retribution gambit to make it work,  then you've got to watch out for enemy gambits, monsters, siege weapons, high def and high avo units, and you've got to make sure that you aren't taking too much xp away from other units to stall their growth.

All of these problems are very solvable, of course. I'm not saying that they aren't. But they all make the build either more complicated or more resource-expensive to run. So it just doesn't work for me as a quick and easy low-investment build.

9 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

+8 damage from defiant str, mag, avo or crit for that matter on both player and enemy phase is great otherwise, especially when reaching that threshold is easy. Just don't get hit afterwards to the point that you'll die.

Sure, +8 strength is great, but the cost for it is: one ability slot, (at least) three quarters of your health, the turns that you take setting up at the start of every battle, and having to master Hero to get it. To me, that just isn't worth it. "Just don't get hit" is fine, but consider as well that HP is a resource. Being able to take a hit gives tactical flexibility that you don't otherwise have. If Defiant Strength was just a straight up tradeoff between HP and Strength, then I think it would be an interesting choice. Personally, I would still probably favour having x4hp over +8str most of the time due to my playstyle, but I can see it going either way. But when you add in the other costs (the ability slot, the setup time, the class mastery), I can't say I find it appealing. You can make it work, sure, and +8str is good enough that it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand, but I don't find the benefit to be worth the costs.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

There's units who have Authority boons and easy ways to run the indech sword fighters by chapter 10. Even before that honestly. Reaching A authority is not an issue at all with those units. Every route has one too.

That reminds me, what if you run out of Retribution?

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

Missing isn't an issue when you have hit+20 to boost accuracy. That is why that ability is important on basically every combat unit you're using (unless you have Valkyrie).

So now you have to go through and master Archer as well as Warrior and Mercenary. I already think the setup needed for this is obscene, and you are not helping your case. 

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

You can gambit monsters and break their barriers, and they have really low movement anyway so staying out of their range to let the rest of your team deal with them first isn't hard. Ditto with armors. That's what the rest of your team is for, to deal with those enemies.

Not all monsters have low movement.

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

Ballista is easy to deal with too with tools like warp and just generally having good movement units to kill the archer or sniper. Only a few chapters have multiple ballista that I can think of (ch12 CF) where you really might have trouble but those are more exceptions than anything off the top of my head. But again, you have other units for that. It's a group of units you're using after all, even with enemy bait and low HP builds... That is still true.

How about two of the endgame chapters, which have multiple siege weapons in use by the enemy?

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

But you do you mate. There's absolutely value to low-HP strats, but if you don't like them then that's fine. Doesn't mean the damage boost isn't worth it and they don't have value just cuz you don't like them though

If you think that this ludicrous amount of setup is worth going through, you must think that something like Gate Guardian is worth going out of your way to summon. Also, to be honest, I think that the devs could have done better than handing out a bunch of Defiants for mastery abilities. Anyways, the Defiants have a very high cost (sure, +8 to str/mag/speed or +30 avoid or +50 crit is nothing to sneeze at, but the problem is that these take up ability slots, require losing 3/4 of your health, and require class mastery to even have; nearly all Defiants are tied to Master tier classes, which is already a big problem, with the one exception being tied to mastering a male-exclusive class that is inferior to other classes). To me, this is just not worth it. Heck, Fates had one character whose personal skill was could be summed up as a proto-Defiant Crit. While it didn't take up a skill slot, it was still terrible.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

All of these problems are very solvable, of course. I'm not saying that they aren't. But they all make the build either more complicated or more resource-expensive to run. So it just doesn't work for me as a quick and easy low-investment build.

I do agree with that and that is part of the high maintenance I was talking about. When I mentioned low investment I was referring moreso to skill ranks, since again something like the Battalion abilities are mastered easily for some units.

But yeah it is definitely something that needs setup and that's where I get the sentiment. I don't disagree with the amount of management it takes, I'm just saying the reward shouldn't be dismissed either.

1 hour ago, lenticular said:

Being able to take a hit gives tactical flexibility that you don't otherwise have

Maybe it's a playstyle thing here. I don't ever find myself in situations where I want my player-phase focused to get hit. That's where I have other units for that job, like Fortress Knights in the midgame part to lure a bunch of enemies at once and tink them. Later on it's war masters or dodge tanks. The defiant units clean-up afterwards.

Just what works for me.

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Gate Guardian

Imma be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. I am missing the reference.

Dunno how your playthroughs are like but I don't usually run out of retribution in any part 2 chapters. You have 2 uses that last 5 turns each, and 10 turns per maps is really doable to clear. Paralogues included.

Archer and Mercenary are pretty easy to master as well, not sure what the issue is there. I already master Brigand and Peggy Knight with a female unit and usually I pick up Hit+20 on top of that, one is done as an adjutant usually. It's just a different role for a bit more class Exp needed for Wrath, which is a pain but is still possible and doable.

Anyway that's probably enough of me arguing for these. Maybe I just like high risk play more and that's probably why I don't value staying at high health. Probably just a playstyle preference.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

Imma be honest, I have no idea what you're talking about. I am missing the reference.

It's a reference to Yu-Gi-Oh!. The monster in question is notorious for being virtually impossible to summon, as doing so requires sacrificing three specific monsters, each of whom requires two tributes to summon. That's troubling enough, but then you consider (among other things) the fact that it has no protection from removal effects, meaning that odds are your opponent will find a way to destroy it, leaving all your hard work to go to waste. Its 3750 attack doesn't make up for these issues.

1 hour ago, DaveCozy said:

Archer and Mercenary are pretty easy to master as well, not sure what the issue is there. I already master Brigand and Peggy Knight with a female unit and usually I pick up Hit+20 on top of that, one is done as an adjutant usually. It's just a different role for a bit more class Exp needed for Wrath, which is a pain but is still possible and doable.

The part where Vantage on its own is pretty lousy, and that the time spent mastering Mercenary could have been better spent mastering a class that's actually worth mastering.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

It's a reference to Yu-Gi-Oh!. The monster in question is notorious for being virtually impossible to summon, as doing so requires sacrificing three specific monsters, each of whom requires two tributes to summon. That's troubling enough, but then you consider (among other things) the fact that it has no protection from removal effects, meaning that odds are your opponent will find a way to destroy it, leaving all your hard work to go to waste. Its 3750 attack doesn't make up for these issues.

The part where Vantage on its own is pretty lousy, and that the time spent mastering Mercenary could have been better spent mastering a class that's actually worth mastering.

I see.

To be fair a V/W setup doesn't have that many ways of being destroyed though. There are ways to deal with ballistas and monsters like I said earlier though, that's where the team composition comes into play too (one thing I forgot to mention with monsters is that their beeg size sometimes forces them to get stuck on "chokepoints" if you put a unit in their way, depending on the map that greatly reduces their attack range and movement). Other teammates are just important to the success of a unit wielding the combo. Beyond that equipment, the battalion choice, Rally Dex and rally speed, etcetera help for that.

All these things take planning, but getting them isn't actually much work. It's the setup that is a pain, which is done chapters in advance and which is admittedly, the learning curve and the annoyance.

So I get it. Not gonna argue with the fact that you don't like it.

I'd say it's worth it though, seems unfair to say it isn't just because it takes an advanced mastery. Enemies in maddening are chunky with HP, so I like having as many units with some kind of nuke offense. Whether that means getting both Death and Darting blows, or whether it means I go for Vantage and (B) Wrath and then eventually put a better more manageable combo later, that comes down to the unit and what they can access reliably.

For what it's worth, I only go for Vantage + Wrath on units that already learn Battalion Wrath already so I can at least sub that in first, and if they have a reliable way of getting to Warrior and mastering it before getting to at least the least 4 chapters of their route. Obviously going for Wrath on a unit like Hubert would be wasteful, so this setup is something that works depending on unit strengths too. Not something I recommend for every unit in your party either, in fact it's moreso a specialized build for one, maybe two max units that you are using regularly.

Edited May 3, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Dark Holy Elf]

lenticular already stated most of what I'd say on this topic pretty eloquently. I particularly like the point about Defiant Strength as a trade... 25% HP in exchange for +8 str feels like a losing trade to me on average, although I can see disagreeing. However, the extra downsides for Defiant Strength - needing to be activated each fight, consuming a skill slot (at a point in the game where skill slots are very valuable), needing to master a bad class - are what make me particularly unfond of it.

Both low HP and low battalion HP have downsides, stacking both at once is very unfortunate, especially since the easiest ways to get to low HP (Blessing, Guard adjutant) involve a character taking a lot of battalion damage, so you can't just easily do it fight after fight. (You can get down safely with relic/devil weapon recoil, but that's slow and typically means the character's first couple turns are a complete wash.) If you're proposing prepping a new battalion every other fight, then this becomes an extremely high investment build IMO.

10 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Maybe it's a playstyle thing here. I don't ever find myself in situations where I want my player-phase focused to get hit.

"want" is the wrong word. However, most player-phase focused units can get hit if necessary. It is tactically flexible to be able to leave a unit in range of an enemy; there are more places they will be able to safely end their turn. Yes, you can work around a lower-HP unit's downsides: you can use repositioning abilities (or Rescue), support them with gambits like Impregnable Wall (as long as their HP isn't at 1). You can meticulously kill every enemy who might be in range. But if you don't have to, that gives you more options to not do those things.

One of the reasons the dodgetank build is so beautiful is that it's the exact opposite of this. I get someone who can be safely deployed... pretty much anywhere.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

I see.

To be fair a V/W setup doesn't have that many ways of being destroyed though. There are ways to deal with ballistas and monsters like I said earlier though, that's where the team composition comes into play too (one thing I forgot to mention with monsters is that their beeg size sometimes forces them to get stuck on "chokepoints" if you put a unit in their way, depending on the map that greatly reduces their attack range and movement). Other teammates are just important to the success of a unit wielding the combo. Beyond that equipment, the battalion choice, Rally Dex and rally speed, etcetera help for that.

All these things take planning, but getting them isn't actually much work. It's the setup that is a pain, which is done chapters in advance and which is admittedly, the learning curve and the annoyance.

So I get it. Not gonna argue with the fact that you don't like it.

I'd say it's worth it though, seems unfair to say it isn't just because it takes an advanced mastery. Enemies in maddening are chunky with HP, so I like having as many units with some kind of nuke offense. Whether that means getting both Death and Darting blows, or whether it means I go for Vantage and (B) Wrath and then eventually put a better more manageable combo later, that comes down to the unit and what they can access reliably.

For what it's worth, I only go for Vantage + Wrath on units that already learn Battalion Wrath already so I can at least sub that in first, and if they have a reliable way of getting to Warrior and mastering it before getting to at least the least 4 chapters of their route. Obviously going for Wrath on a unit like Hubert would be wasteful, so this setup is something that works depending on unit strengths too. Not something I recommend for every unit in your party either, in fact it's moreso a specialized build for one, maybe two max units that you are using regularly.

Doesn't change the fact that it has flaws and weaknesses, both of which are serious. 

And again, I would rather spend my time mastering a class that is actually worth mastering than slogging through Mercenary and Warrior, mediocre classes which don't even have good mastery abilities.

I fail to see how it's worth it when it involves two mediocre classes with bad mastery abilities and has a ton of flaws that limit its usefulness.

Okay, but I still cannot see how you can defend Vantage/Battalion Wrath as worth using when you stack the flaws that come with low HP and low battalion endurance. Are you proposing switching battalions after every fight (and thus needing to set it up again)? Because that's pretty much what you're advocating when the best ways to get to low HP involve taking a lot of battalion damage as well.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[DaveCozy]

2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

lenticular already stated most of what I'd say on this topic pretty eloquently. I particularly like the point about Defiant Strength as a trade... 25% HP in exchange for +8 str feels like a losing trade to me on average, although I can see disagreeing. However, the extra downsides for Defiant Strength - needing to be activated each fight, consuming a skill slot (at a point in the game where skill slots are very valuable), needing to master a bad class - are what make me particularly unfond of it.

Both low HP and low battalion HP have downsides, stacking both at once is very unfortunate, especially since the easiest ways to get to low HP (Blessing, Guard adjutant) involve a character taking a lot of battalion damage, so you can't just easily do it fight after fight. (You can get down safely with relic/devil weapon recoil, but that's slow and typically means the character's first couple turns are a complete wash.) If you're proposing prepping a new battalion every other fight, then this becomes an extremely high investment build IMO.

"want" is the wrong word. However, most player-phase focused units can get hit if necessary. It is tactically flexible to be able to leave a unit in range of an enemy; there are more places they will be able to safely end their turn. Yes, you can work around a lower-HP unit's downsides: you can use repositioning abilities (or Rescue), support them with gambits like Impregnable Wall (as long as their HP isn't at 1). You can meticulously kill every enemy who might be in range. But if you don't have to, that gives you more options to not do those things.

One of the reasons the dodgetank build is so beautiful is that it's the exact opposite of this. I get someone who can be safely deployed... pretty much anywhere.

For the record I get the points and they're good ones, I'm not denying that there's no setup involved or that it isn't tedious.

Thing is that something like Battalion Wrath is very early to get, by comparison to something like Alert+, Defiant dodge (assuming that's something you use for dodge tanks), breaker ability, a better weapon proficiency ability for extra dodge, etc. all come into play too. I like dodge tanks as well but I'm also not desperate enough to throw something like Sword Avo+20 on one and put aside dancing either...

Really that's what my entire posts come down to. Battalion Wrath + Vantage on Hero is a temporary useful trait. Not the end goal. Doesn't mean it isn't or can't be useful to use because it's not the end goal.

As another e.g. is a class like Fortress Knights. Their 4 move is obviously awful and they need to be moved with stride and shoves probably to get where they need to get. But their protection is very high, and stacking them to the teeth with a good shield and a good battalion also results in a pretty low investment bait that can tink hits. Obviously not something to use once maps get big and seige magic is more common (route dependent)... but when nothing better is around... Well why not? It's the same thing I'm saying regards to Hero as a class. Specially when units like Jeritza literally just need an advanced seal (he already meets all the ranks) and a battalion at that endurance set up already. No mastery at all required and he can go back to Death Knight of Wvern after you don't need the class anymore.

Personal note, I find it more trouble to master Brigand with late joiners since intermediate stats aren't up to par by this point, so that's where I sub in Defiant Strength sometimes. Not ideal obviously but it's a different approach than having to adjutant an otherwise combat ready unit to master an intermediate class.

In regards to defiant strength, fair enough. I think it's a fine enough trade-off for the high risk, but it is high risk to be at low HP and I get not wanting to play like that either. I'm fine agreeing to disagree.

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Are you proposing switching battalions after every fight (and thus needing to set it up again)? Because that's pretty much what you're advocating

I've already addressed this misconception of switching low endurance battalions after every fight in previous posts. Will quote for you:

 

On 5/2/2022 at 9:40 PM, DaveCozy said:

A battalion loses 1/2 health of the damage the unit takes, so you'd have to lose 70 HP in one hit for said battalion to retreat from 35 endurance. Realistically speaking you don't have any units near that number in HP stats by the point Hero is relevant. And it only counts damage done in combat too, so as I said things like Poison Strike can help you further without affecting battalion endurance.

...

Even if that's a concern you can also go for Defensive Tactics as an ability (curiously it becomes available at B rank authority), which reduces the endurance lost by 1/4th of damage taken, further giving you more maps to use it on.

On 5/2/2022 at 7:33 PM, DaveCozy said:

most B rank battalions have 35 endurance at 1/3rd which is still quite significant and can work for multiple maps before being depleted.

And before I get misquoted again, let me stress. The goal is to only do this for the parts of the game before you have better abilities, not all the way to endgame. So no, you're not necessarily depleting and changing your battalion a whole lot either, if at all.

Edited May 4, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

And before I get misquoted again, let me stress. The goal is to only do this for the parts of the game before you have better abilities, not all the way to endgame. So no, you're not necessarily depleting and changing your battalion a whole lot either, if at all.

This does jackshit to change the fact that this is very inconvenient to set up. And this is all for the sake of an ability that is only good on one character (Dimitri), and that I am very hesitant to recommend on literally anyone else that gets it (also, using Defensive Tactics in conjunction with B.Wrath means I'm now wasting two ability slots on subpar abilities). Another question: when exactly do most of your units get B authority??

 

[lenticular]

4 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Really that's what my entire posts come down to. Battalion Wrath + Vantage on Hero is a temporary useful trait. Not the end goal. Doesn't mean it isn't or can't be useful to use because it's not the end goal.

As another e.g. is a class like Fortress Knights. [...]

Personal note, I find it more trouble to master Brigand with late joiners since intermediate stats aren't up to par by this point, so that's where I sub in Defiant Strength sometimes. Not ideal obviously but it's a different approach than having to adjutant an otherwise combat ready unit to master an intermediate class.

Which units are you doing this with? Late-joining units with Battalion Wrath are, what? Alois, Gilbert and Seteth? Am I missing any? But as far as I'm aware, don't Gilbert and Alois both start at E rank swords? Getting them certified into Hero to begin with sounds like it would take more effort than mastering Brigand for Death Blow. Since you probably have the Cethleann statue upgrade and a knowledge gem by this point, the mastery only takes 25 combats as an adjutant, which can be accomplished in a single weekend of paralogues/quest battles/auxiliary battles. Seteth does have an easier time getting into Hero, but he also has a much better default class, which makes the switch less appealing.

I also have to say, I'd be very wary of using an enemy phase build like Vantage/B. Wrath just as a stopgap. That sort of build tends to steal xp from everyone else, which is fine if you're building a juggernaught who's going to solo the rest of the game, but is something I'd be nervous of if I was just going to use to for a couple of chapters and then hope that everyone else hadn't fallen to far behind. I've never tried doing things the way you're suggesting here, so I may be completely wrong, but it's definitely something I'd be nervous of.

As an aside, though, I agree with you about Fortress Knight. I think it's a decent class which has a lot of use cases.

[haarhaarhaar]

9 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Specially when units like Jeritza literally just need an advanced seal (he already meets all the ranks) and a battalion at that endurance set up already. No mastery at all required and he can go back to Death Knight of Wvern after you don't need the class anymore.

Arguably, Jeritza never wants to go Hero, because the early Part 2 maps (bridge of Myrddin, Derdriu) reward high-movement. I could maybe see it for Ch. 15 (Garreg Mach defense), but that map is a great place to get kills, so having a tank (and Jeritza, of all people!) absorb all that juicy EXP feels like a massive missed opportunity. Unless, of course, you were already planning on a Jeritza-juggernaut run, in which case you definitely don't want him to spend time in Hero. 

9 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Personal note, I find it more trouble to master Brigand with late joiners since intermediate stats aren't up to par by this point, so that's where I sub in Defiant Strength sometimes. Not ideal obviously but it's a different approach than having to adjutant an otherwise combat ready unit to master an intermediate class.

In regards to defiant strength, fair enough. I think it's a fine enough trade-off for the high risk, but it is high risk to be at low HP and I get not wanting to play like that either.

This is interesting - I've found the opposite, that mastering an Advanced Class, especially for only temporary benefits/as not part of my final build-plan, is a significantly greater effort than doing the same for an Intermediate class. Even taking into account the drop to stats. Then again, I don't use Defiant Strength, so what do I know. 

[DaveCozy]

12 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

This does jackshit to change the fact that this is very inconvenient to set up. And this is all for the sake of an ability that is only good on one character (Dimitri), and that I am very hesitant to recommend on literally anyone else that gets it (also, using Defensive Tactics in conjunction with B.Wrath means I'm now wasting two ability slots on subpar abilities). Another question: when exactly do most of your units get B authority??

 

I train authority on almost every unit I use. Bane, Boon or neutral. Save for specialized ones like Linhardt who don't need it.

I get A authority on a booned unit before chapter 10. Dimitri, Annette, Ignatz, Hubert, Constance or Yuri are some e.g. Except for Dimitri whose priority for A rank authority is obviously combat oriented, the rest usually go for it as one constant goal (not the only one) and primary tutoring lessons. Their combat suffers somewhat compared to if I hadn't focused on Authority as much, but that's not what I'm using them for anyways, it's to carry support battalions to help the rest of my team. I only use one unit in that role in my main team too, which helps me alleviate having to level them up as much.

For B authority I only get that on a handful of others shortly after, before chapter 10's main mission earliest but more realistically chapter 11. That is doable by setting it as one steady goal and occasionally tutoring on it. Usually on units who want to fly or units who just want to high move with good combat stats. There's several e.g. for those, but they at least have neutral Authority.

The ones with banes are at C Authority at best by that point, and usually don't go past that. After C you fight the bane too much to be worth it.

The reason why I think Authority is so important is because battalions are essentially a set of very broken equipment you can put on a unit to boost their stats significantly. I don't try to keep up with enemies when it comes to stats in Maddening, because it feels like a fools errand. They're always way too strong to be worth bothering with, but Authority rank is something I can invest on outside of battle and gives me an avenue to keep up better.

Chapter 10 (or probably before that) is when most units are also hitting level 20 to go into advanced classes.

10 hours ago, lenticular said:

Which units are you doing this with? Late-joining units with Battalion Wrath are, what? Alois, Gilbert and Seteth? Am I missing any? But as far as I'm aware, don't Gilbert and Alois both start at E rank swords? Getting them certified into Hero to begin with sounds like it would take more effort than mastering Brigand for Death Blow. Since you probably have the Cethleann statue upgrade and a knowledge gem by this point, the mastery only takes 25 combats as an adjutant, which can be accomplished in a single weekend of paralogues/quest battles/auxiliary battles. Seteth does have an easier time getting into Hero, but he also has a much better default class, which makes the switch less appealing.

I also have to say, I'd be very wary of using an enemy phase build like Vantage/B. Wrath just as a stopgap. That sort of build tends to steal xp from everyone else, which is fine if you're building a juggernaught who's going to solo the rest of the game, but is something I'd be nervous of if I was just going to use to for a couple of chapters and then hope that everyone else hadn't fallen to far behind. I've never tried doing things the way you're suggesting here, so I may be completely wrong, but it's definitely something I'd be nervous of.

As an aside, though, I agree with you about Fortress Knight. I think it's a decent class which has a lot of use cases.

Those are the units, yeah. It is limited to them indeed, but they are all available in one form or another in part 2 as well.

You need C rank Sword minimum to attempt the Hero exam with the ones you mentioned indeed, since they are well past the Axe rank already. C rank swords is not a huge investment though at part 2 when saint statues and Byleth having a naturally higher sword rank boosts that. If I recall correctly I get both of them to Hero for chapter 15 in most routes, but usually I only swap to it for paralogues. Nothing stops you from getting Death Blow while that is being trained either.

The thing with Jeritza getting Def str over Death Blow, I was just listing it as another option, not necessarily a better one. The reason I sometimes go for it (key word, sometimes) is because I don't feel like adjutanting a Brigand and would rather use Jeritza in an advanced class. Ditto with Seteth.

Also, you're not using a Vantage/B. Wrath unit to necessarily bait and kill everything in the map either. Maps are pretty big by part 2. They can handle one section of the map at best, but more realistically, they are only baiting the high movement and fast enemies like Assassins or Grapplers. Remember that enemies come in groups and if you bait one of them, usually all the rest move too. The Vantage/B. Wrath combo is designed to take care of the more dangerous ones first, then let the rest of your units bully the ones who walked forward and fell behind.

At least, that's how I use it, and I have no complaints. I use my dodge tanks and crit blocks later in the game in a similar fashion. This is why I said, maybe it's just a playstyle thing.

4 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

Arguably, Jeritza never wants to go Hero, because the early Part 2 maps (bridge of Myrddin, Derdriu) reward high-movement. I could maybe see it for Ch. 15 (Garreg Mach defense), but that map is a great place to get kills, so having a tank (and Jeritza, of all people!) absorb all that juicy EXP feels like a massive missed opportunity. Unless, of course, you were already planning on a Jeritza-juggernaut run, in which case you definitely don't want him to spend time in Hero. 

This is interesting - I've found the opposite, that mastering an Advanced Class, especially for only temporary benefits/as not part of my final build-plan, is a significantly greater effort than doing the same for an Intermediate class. Even taking into account the drop to stats. Then again, I don't use Defiant Strength, so what do I know. 

Actually, it's chapter 14 where I find the highest reward for Jeritza as Hero. Half the enemies in that chapter have axes (the other half bows) and a handful of them are Wyvern Riders and Wyvern Lords. The reinforcements are also Wyverns, and they're relentless. They fly straight towards the city where your grounded units are moving towards as well.

This is where the setup and planning comes into play, and why I understand some folks not liking all the pre-amp that comes with it. But with all the work, you can make dealing with those wyverns pretty easy at the end of it. It's just one possible solution, but it's a viable one. That's what I've been getting at.

Let me demonstrate:

Jeritza as Hero with Axebreaker, Sword prof, Defensive Tactics, Mastermind and B. Wrath is what I usually run for abilities at that point of the game. The crit boosts respectively come from Jeritza's own crit rate as Hero (+14), B. Wrath (+50), critical ring(+5), Fraldarius Soldiers (+20 max level, I recruit Felix late and cheese his paralogue tbh) and a forged Wo Dao+ (+40) with a forged Killer Edge (+35) as backup. Aside having good hit rate since we know there's a large amount of enemies wielding axes, he also has 129 crit rate (124 with the latter). Taking one hit from an enemy is enough to activate vantage and that's all he needs - Jeritza has 27 speed at base as Hero, Warriors and Snipers do not double him. You don't even need Retribution because almost none of the axe enemies have 2-range. The Wyvern Lords with 21 luck +10 crit avo from prowess, that to 98 displayed crit... the risk you're taking is very small here to not crit. Worth noting; Nader has 15 luck only in Maddening, so he gets 100% critted, guaranteed. This build makes him a non-issue.

EDIT: updated to correct above values. I forgot to calc (Dex+Lck)/2 and forgot about the enemies prowess too. Still changes changes nothing in regards to the main point.

Black Sand steel is all you need to maintain the above weapons, which is infinite to buy from the east merchant in the monastery and you get a ton of gold in this game thanks to fishing. The rest of the bow enemies can be dealt with other units too, and in fact you don't even need Jeritza to hog all the experience either if you don't want to. You could just let him take on one or two Wyverns to minimize getting overwhelmed, and let the rest of the other enemies that approach be dealt with other units.

Just because you build a unit to function like a crit block doesn't mean you have to use them to kill everything. In fact, that's actually pretty hard to build because enemy breaker skills and weapons are much more varied. Battalion Wrath works for more specialized, but still relevant cases like what I described above. That's just one e.g. that is fresh off my head, since it's the route I literally am doing right now on Maddening.

And yeah, admittedly, a lot of prep work goes into something like described above. Low-investment abilities doesn't mean no skill or forethought is involved either. I'm just demonstrating how it all comes together to show how it can be a viable option. In particular before Falcon Knights and Wyvern Lord certifications are possible to help make avo-tanking more reliable with avo+10, because your units are not likely at level 30 on Maddening at chapter 14 either since EXP gain is nerfed.

I'm actually past chapter 15 and I've already mastered Hero with Jeritza and ditched the class. I swapped him to Death Knight and gave him darting blow to be more player phase focused 😛 again, Hero and B. Wrath for that matter are not something I stick with till the end, just tools that are useful for a part of the game.

Edited May 4, 2022 by DaveCozy

[Ari Chan]

On 5/2/2022 at 3:02 PM, DaveCozy said:

I read the 2nd and 3rd page and I'm generally surprised that so many don't like Vantage and Battalion Wrath and dismissed Rengor's notes, which I've personally found to be very helpful (for the most part).

It's true that eventually you can get more consistent ways of dodging, but the point of the above is moreso that it creates a low investment unit without having to master Mercenary. That's why it's useful, not because it's something you stick with till the end of the game, it's because it's something that is there before the better builds are available.

Managing battalion endurance is a chore, yes, but it's not actually difficult. It's just work is all. Managing HP is actually really easy in this game, specially when Blessing and guard adjutants exist. It's an extra easy chore on top of an annoying chore, but it does really pay off. Admittedly, the biggest issue is gambits, which you have to watch out for.

You technically don't need those combos if you don't like them, but they are definitely effective due to the sheer damage output they have, and shouldn't be dismissed like a niche just cuz they take work.

Imo vanilla Vantage/Wrath is just easier to set up, more reliable and the game throws at you good candidates for that build from the get go (stupid strong units like Dedue and Balthus or usable ones like Raphael) so I don't see the need to class someone into Hero for an emergency EP unit. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Ari Chan

[lenticular]

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

You need C rank Sword minimum to attempt the Hero exam with the ones you mentioned indeed, since they are well past the Axe rank already. C rank swords is not a huge investment though at part 2 when saint statues and Byleth having a naturally higher sword rank boosts that. If I recall correctly I get both of them to Hero for chapter 15 in most routes, but usually I only swap to it for paralogues. Nothing stops you from getting Death Blow while that is being trained either.

That's fair. I am, I think, generally less willing to take certification exams at low pass rates than most people. (This due to a combination of never save scumming for them, not liking to "waste" resources, and finding repeatedly trying to be quite tedious.) For people who are more willing to deal with it than I am, I can see that C swords isn't a huge investment.

2 hours ago, DaveCozy said:

Also, you're not using a Vantage/B. Wrath unit to necessarily bait and kill everything in the map either. Maps are pretty big by part 2. They can handle one section of the map at best, but more realistically, they are only baiting the high movement and fast enemies like Assassins or Grapplers. Remember that enemies come in groups and if you bait one of them, usually all the rest move too. The Vantage/B. Wrath combo is designed to take care of the more dangerous ones first, then let the rest of your units bully the ones who walked forward and fell behind.

Also fair enough. I don't typically have any shortage of units who are capable of baiting in a small number of enemies by that point, but if that is a role that you're struggling for, then I can definitely see that the Vantage/B. Wrath build would be able to do so just fine. I wonder if this is related to what we discussed earlier with how I like for my player phase units to be able to take a hit, whereas you don't care about that? Regardless, it does sound like a playstyle issue.

[DaveCozy]

1 hour ago, Ari Chan said:

Imo vanilla Vantage/Wrath is just easier to set up, more reliable and the game throws at you good candidates for that build from the get go (stupid strong units like Dedue and Balthus or usable ones like Raphael) so I don't see the need to class someone into Hero for an emergency EP unit. 

I agree that Vantage/Wrath is ultimately better, but remember that you have to master Warrior to get that, while B. Wrath is a C authority skill for the majority of units that learn it. It's what I meant when I said less investment earlier in the thread.

It's one good point that Shadow Mir brought up about Wrath being in an Advanced class taking investment to get. That is why B Wrath has value if only temporarily... and it can be either on a unit who's going for a crit build or on a completely different unit that can just set it up from the get-go and then ditch it later when someone else has the better version.

You definitely don't need to reclass to use Hero. It's just an option if you'd rather have an EP unit earlier than when you're likely done mastering Wrath. Off the top of my head the only unit that ever masters an Advanced class before part 2 starts is Shamir, and for her... well she's an early joining Sniper.

Also in regards to Raphael, I actually do not like him with Vantage + Wrath. On paper he would be perfect for it, but his personal ability randomly healing him makes the combo inconsistent to use with him. I agree with Dedue and Balthus though