Preliminary Evaluation of Abilities

[ZanaLyrander]

Adding onto my earlier comment about Despoil, I'm really unsure how to evaluate Appraisal. Like, I don't even know how one would go about testing something like that. Better drops certainly sounds useful, and I've been using it and Despoil on a number of characters because I'm not struggling and don't need the extra damage, but could always use more money and good weapons.

Despoil is easy to evaluate: it caps out at 9999 gold per mission, which, while a shame, is still a very nice chunk of change, and adds up real quick. On shorter missions, I usually get around 5000 something instead, you just don't get enough kills. But on any mission where you get 1000+ kills, you're probably gonna hit the cap. Money is the rate limiting resource for most things in this game honestly, which is why people love Balthus' personal skill so much (which I'm pretty sure stacks with Despoil).

But Appraisal... I can report I'm getting tons of great drops with Appraisal on Maddening, but getting a side by side comparison of with and without Appraisal is damn near impossible so I have no idea how much it's actually doing and how much is just me getting lucky.

[Archeleon]

24 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

So, I've been working on the assumption that Pass actually makes it easier to perform Perfect Dodges, not Perfect Guards, because that just makes more sense. Is that correct?

Yeah, I brought this up on the main discussion thread. Tested it too. Seems like an odd typo in the game.

[Archeleon]

2 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Adding onto my earlier comment about Despoil, I'm really unsure how to evaluate Appraisal. Like, I don't even know how one would go about testing something like that. Better drops certainly sounds useful, and I've been using it and Despoil on a number of characters because I'm not struggling and don't need the extra damage, but could always use more money and good weapons.

Despoil is easy to evaluate: it caps out at 9999 gold per mission, which, while a shame, is still a very nice chunk of change, and adds up real quick. On shorter missions, I usually get around 5000 something instead, you just don't get enough kills. But on any mission where you get 1000+ kills, you're probably gonna hit the cap. Money is the rate limiting resource for most things in this game honestly, which is why people love Balthus' personal skill so much (which I'm pretty sure stacks with Despoil).

But Appraisal... I can report I'm getting tons of great drops with Appraisal on Maddening, but getting a side by side comparison of with and without Appraisal is damn near impossible so I have no idea how much it's actually doing and how much is just me getting lucky.

Couple of things to check - Do you see more Zoltan/Brave stuff with it as opposed to Silver and below?

Do you see more, higher level attributes with it than without it?

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Archeleon said:

Couple of things to check - Do you see more Zoltan/Brave stuff with it as opposed to Silver and below?

Do you see more, higher level attributes with it than without it?

On Maddening, with it equipped, it's rare to see even Brave stuff, it's mostly Zoltan stuff. As for higher level attributes, it's been almost exclusively lvl 3 stuff with rare exceptions, but I admit I don't know how much of that is Appraisal and how much of that is just higher tier weapons having higher level attributes.

Also on Maddening with Appraisal equipped, getting A rank rusted weapons from killing monsters is pretty much the norm. Every now and then I'll get B rank stuff, but more often than not it's A rank, regalia weapons. It's led me to believe that Appraisal may actually be way more valuable on higher difficulties where you can get the really good stuff, it seems like it just makes the good drops more consistent, but again, this is purely anecdotal evidence and I don't have much to compare it to. But whenever I spend a mission as a character without it equipped, it does seem like drop quality takes a noticeable hit.

[Pie Burritos]

3 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

But Appraisal... I can report I'm getting tons of great drops with Appraisal on Maddening, but getting a side by side comparison of with and without Appraisal is damn near impossible so I have no idea how much it's actually doing and how much is just me getting lucky.

I've been playing nearly entirely without it, and the drops feel pretty great anyways. So I'm not sure. Obviously there are certain abilities I'd rather not see like Invert Offense/Defense, but I highly doubt Appraisal affects those things. And monster drops on Maddening seem to be rusted Regalia like 100% of the time.

1 minute ago, Archeleon said:

Couple of things to check - Do you see more Zoltan/Brave stuff with it as opposed to Silver and below?

Do you see more, higher level attributes with it than without it?

I see basically only Zoltan and Brave even without it, but I do mash through post-battle menus so maybe I just have tunnel vision because silvers don't even register on my radar (neither do braves to be honest). As for high level attributes, I rarely see any Lvl. 2 abilities anymore but they do appear now and then. Maybe they'd get wiped out entirely with Appraisal?

[ZanaLyrander]

2 minutes ago, Pie Burritos said:

I've been playing nearly entirely without it, and the drops feel pretty great anyways. So I'm not sure. Obviously there are certain abilities I'd rather not see like Invert Offense/Defense, but I highly doubt Appraisal affects those things. And monster drops on Maddening seem to be rusted Regalia like 100% of the time.

I see basically only Zoltan and Brave even without it, but I do mash through post-battle menus so maybe I just have tunnel vision because silvers don't even register on my radar (neither do braves to be honest). As for high level attributes, I rarely see any Lvl. 2 abilities anymore but they do appear now and then. Maybe they'd get wiped out entirely with Appraisal?

Hmm... that sounds pretty similar to my experience with Appraisal equipped. Perhaps it's not having as big an impact as I thought. Regardless, Appraisal vs no Appraisal doesn't have even close to as big an impact as Hard vs. Maddening. Difficulty definitely plays a much larger role in drop quality.

[Pie Burritos]

For sure. Maddening is more of a New Game Plus difficulty that allows you to continue growing your characters against enemies who start out just as strong as Hard Endgame rather than an actual difficulty setting. It's the only way to play the game if you want to maximize your characters. That much was clear when Zoltan weapons were presented as endgame tier weapons that you could only get from S-Ranking maps, only for them to show up as regular drops in Maddening right from the start.

[ZanaLyrander]

Sounds like Appraisal is probably a pretty minor benefit. That said, I do still swear by Despoil, especially early on in the campaign. Early missions give barely any money, it was not uncommon for me to be making more money from Despoil than I made from the mission itself. And even with endgame missions, Despoil was giving me around 33-50% more money per mission, it makes a big difference.

[Sire]

A note on Despoil, I have a feeling Balthus' personal may give out better rates in terms of gold dropped. (For example, its easy to max out gold if farming the secret mission using Balthus, although I haven't tested farming it using Despoil instead.)
-- The real question is if Despoil and Balthus' personal share the same limit of 9999 gold, or if they are tracked separately (so two different 9999 caps).
-- I know you can go over 9999 gold at the end results screen, but this is usually reaching the cap and breaking the Gold Pots, which is added on top of that.

[ZanaLyrander]

1 minute ago, Sire said:

A note on Despoil, I have a feeling Balthus' personal may give out better rates in terms of gold dropped. (For example, its easy to max out gold if farming the secret mission using Balthus, although I haven't tested farming it using Despoil instead.)
-- The real question is if Despoil and Balthus' personal share the same limit of 9999 gold, or if they are tracked separately (so two different 9999 caps).
-- I know you can go over 9999 gold at the end results screen, but this is usually reaching the cap and breaking the Gold Pots, which is added on top of that.

I have wanted to test that as well. However, I can confirm that maxing out and getting 9999 gold on the secret mission with Despoil is similarly effortless. I've run that mission with each, but not both at once, they both hit the cap easily, so I can't really compare the rates.

[Fabulously Olivier]

So are any innate abilities going to be ranked? Some of them seem quite potentially useful like Domineer, Proficient Witstrike, Flyswatter, and Range Master.

[Archeleon]

23 hours ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

So are any innate abilities going to be ranked? Some of them seem quite potentially useful like Domineer, Proficient Witstrike, Flyswatter, and Range Master.

Added innate abilities to the list.

[ciphertul]

So someone will need to double check this but I believe Flare and Luna should be dropped out of S.

Someone had tested them and if your Lck is equal or less then the stat it effects the bonus is greatly reduced. They had tested Luna on the Lv 180 Ferdinand and they only gained like 7-10 extra damage.

Edited July 23, 2022 by ciphertul

[Archeleon]

6 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

So someone will need to double check this but I believe Flare and Luna should be dropped out of S.

Someone had tested them and if your Lck is equal or less then the stat it effects the bonus is greatly reduced. They had tested Luna on the Lv 180 Ferdinand and they only gained like 7-10 extra damage.

We know how Luna/Flare works. It takes your Lck stat, divides it by 10 and then subtracts the amount from the target Def/Res when calculating damage. What we do know is that what is important is the target's initial Def/Res. The higher the stat the less effective Luna/Flare are. It seems that in average, enemies in high level Maddening maps have 60 Def/Res. If you have 60 Lck you will reduce the target's Def/Res by 6, which will net about a 11% damage boost. It might need to get bumped down to A due to the variance.

[ciphertul]

16 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

We know how Luna/Flare works. It takes your Lck stat, divides it by 10 and then subtracts the amount from the target Def/Res when calculating damage. What we do know is that what is important is the target's initial Def/Res. The higher the stat the less effective Luna/Flare are. It seems that in average, enemies in high level Maddening maps have 60 Def/Res. If you have 60 Lck you will reduce the target's Def/Res by 6, which will net about a 11% damage boost. It might need to get bumped down to A due to the variance.

Then that isn’t something I would call S rank.

[Archeleon]

13 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Then that isn’t something I would call S rank.

Hence stating they may need to be bumped down.

[Burklight]

14 minutes ago, ciphertul said:

Then that isn’t something I would call S rank.

It's S ran for sure in a min maxed scenario. At 120 luck, it's closer to a 20% damage increase. But it's actually 20% and doesn't fall into the diminishing returns category. If you're comparing it to other skills that will give you diminishing returns that are also S rank, it should be looked at as having 50-70% increase damage depending on how many other damage skills you're using.

[Archeleon]

21 minutes ago, Burklight said:

It's S ran for sure in a min maxed scenario. At 120 luck, it's closer to a 20% damage increase. But it's actually 20% and doesn't fall into the diminishing returns category. If you're comparing it to other skills that will give you diminishing returns that are also S rank, it should be looked at as having 50-70% increase damage depending on how many other damage skills you're using.

This is important to keep in mind. It is for all intents and purposes a multiplicative modifier. However, the reliance on Lck and its variance against enemies may not make it the ironclad S tier we initially thought.

[Archeleon]

On another note, I might need some more practical information regarding Howl. I have been messing with it a bit and it looks like it may be a lot more powerful than at first glance. It certainly does not "knock back" enemies but it does seem to "flinch" or "interrupt" enemies fairly often. I wonder if the translation of the ability is just lacking, and it does something more important than it describes.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Archeleon

[Burklight]

9 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

This is important to keep in mind. It is for all intents and purposes a multiplicative modifier. However, the reliance on Lck and its variance against enemies may not make it the ironclad S tier we initially thought.

Maybe it would be a decent idea to lay out the criteria you're using for the tier list. Are you not assuming min maxed scenarios? Or just the average of all possible scenarios? Is it super generalized? I almost feel like a tier list would be more useful if it was for units and not for skills. I may make a first pass at that later today, actually. There's too many edge cases where such and such niche skill happens to be good on X unit. At least half the units in the game have some edge case

There are probably some situations where you wouldn't want to. Like on Lysithesa. I'm struggling to come up with a physical damage unit who doesn't learn Luna who doesn't really wish they had it. Dimitri would be significantly better if he had Luna, for example.

[Archeleon]

14 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Maybe it would be a decent idea to lay out the criteria you're using for the tier list. Are you not assuming min maxed scenarios? Or just the average of all possible scenarios? Is it super generalized? I almost feel like a tier list would be more useful if it was for units and not for skills. I may make a first pass at that later today, actually. There's too many edge cases where such and such niche skill happens to be good on X unit. At least half the units in the game have some edge case

There are probably some situations where you wouldn't want to. Like on Lysithesa. I'm struggling to come up with a physical damage unit who doesn't learn Luna who doesn't really wish they had it. Dimitri would be significantly better if he had Luna, for example.

Depends on what you mean by min/maxed. Are we talking about a situation in which all your units are at every stat cap and have access to every skill? Would you not consider opportunity cost/time consumption into the ratings? For example, most units can easily get to 60 Lck without having to spend too many resources on it and for the most part that works. That lets you spend resources elsewhere. Ease of use can be a factor in the ratings.

The criteria is based on how likely it is that the ability will fit into a build. Boost Critical is S tier because anyone can make use of more crit even when they don't have high Dex simply because of how Crit works. Wild Abandon is great on most units but might not work on builds that make you less mobile as you risk taking damage. Essence skills are good on units that have access to a lot of elemental skills that match their element but is lackluster otherwise. Panache is a skill that can shine in a build that already favors Awakening but is not great on its own; it compliments a build. Defensive tactics is just not something I would use in any build.

Regarding unit tiering. I encourage you to do so. I don't want to do one myself because I don't personally care how good one unit is over the other as I want to play all of them. I have thought about opening up a Combat Art/Spell tiering discussion though.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Archeleon

[Fabulously Olivier]

I definitely see a unit tiering discussion getting interesting, and that one's more accessible because it isn't as mathy as this. But there sure is a lot to factor in. Availability varying by route, base stats, growths, preferred class, learned abilities/arts/spells, crests, relic and sacred weapons, unique ability, tactical ability, and support ability.

[Burklight]

6 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Depends on what you mean by min/maxed. Are we talking about a situation in which all your units are at every stat cap and have access to every skill? Would you not consider opportunity cost/time consumption into the ratings? For example, most units can easily get to 60 Lck without having to spend too many resources on it and for the most part that works. That lets you spend resources elsewhere. Ease of use can be a factor in the ratings.

The criteria is based on how likely it is that the ability will fit into a build. Boost Critical is S tier because anyone can make use of more crit even when they don't have high Dex simply because of how Crit works. Wild Abandon is great on most units but might not work on builds that make you less mobile as you risk taking damage. Essence skills are good on units that have access to a lot of elemental skills that match their element but is lackluster otherwise. Panache is a skill that can shine in a build that already favors Awakening but is not great on its own; it compliments a build. Defensive tactics is just not something I would use in any build.

Regarding unit tiering. I encourage you to do so. I don't want to do one myself because I don't personally care how good one unit is over the other as I want to play all of them. I have thought about opening up a Combat Art/Spell tiering discussion though.

Well, if we're assuming this is for maddening difficulty, it's probably a safe assumption that you're on your 3rd-4th NG+ clear. By that time you should have access to most/all skills, and probably have the resources to get 100-120 in all offensive stats for units you're using. If your assumptions are different I could see how you would come to different conclusions. Luna is probably somewhere in B tier and not A if the unit unsure what skill to use only has 60 luck. It's clearly near the top of A if you have 120 luck.

[Archeleon]

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

Well, if we're assuming this is for maddening difficulty, it's probably a safe assumption that you're on your 3rd-4th NG+ clear. By that time you should have access to most/all skills, and probably have the resources to get 100-120 in all offensive stats for units you're using. If your assumptions are different I could see how you would come to different conclusions. Luna is probably somewhere in B tier and not A if the unit unsure what skill to use only has 60 luck. It's clearly near the top of A if you have 120 luck.

That's why I didn't immediately fold on the Luna/Flare rating. I think units that can get it will use it in most of their builds without drawback, regardless of Lck. Easily top tier no matter where you are in the game.

[Archeleon]

9 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

I definitely see a unit tiering discussion getting interesting, and that one's more accessible because it isn't as mathy as this. But there sure is a lot to factor in. Availability varying by route, base stats, growths, preferred class, learned abilities/arts/spells, crests, relic and sacred weapons, unique ability, tactical ability, and support ability.

I would argue whole-unit discussion would end up being way more mathy than just looking at abilities on their own merit. This tier list here is just a piece of the puzzle towards unit optimization.