Preliminary Evaluation of Abilities

[Fabulously Olivier]

I think it's fair to say that Luna/Flare isn't meta-defining in this game unlike in the original. In the original, if you had really bad Luck, you were bad. Here, most characters have comparatively viable skills to use in place of Luna, and it will certainly help things if and when they fix the Apex skills - that'll be one less free slot in everyone's build.

 

They're definitely good. They don't make or break a character anymore.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[Dark Holy Elf]

59 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I almost feel like a tier list would be more useful if it was for units and not for skills.

For all that I'm a fan of unit tier lists, I definitely feel the opposite in this case. Based on what I've seen so far, I just don't think the gaps between units in this game are very large at all. Three Houses already had smaller gaps in unit quality than average for FE but even then there were very concrete things you could point at between units. In this game the gaps feel quite small indeed; I'm quite confident anyone can be used to achieve S ranks on missions, so in some ways, who cares? Players are just gonna use who they want.

On the other hand I'm already finding this ability tiering very useful to think about, because "which abilities are worth using" is non-trivial but very meaningful question. A character with a great ability loadout is going to be way more effective than one with a poor one, whoever those characters are.

[Fabulously Olivier]

12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For all that I'm a fan of unit tier lists, I definitely feel the opposite in this case. Based on what I've seen so far, I just don't think the gaps between units in this game are very large at all. Three Houses already had smaller gaps in unit quality than average for FE but even then there were very concrete things you could point at between units. In this game the gaps feel quite small indeed; I'm quite confident anyone can be used to achieve S ranks on missions, so in some ways, who cares? Players are just gonna use who they want.

On the other hand I'm already finding this ability tiering very useful to think about, because "which abilities are worth using" is non-trivial but very meaningful question. A character with a great ability loadout is going to be way more effective than one with a poor one, whoever those characters are.

It is absolutely well balanced for a Warriors game - the worst units in the game would still be solidly mid tier in something like Hyrule Warriors or Age of Calamity.

 

But disparities absolutely exist. Shez, Ferdinand, Felix, Edelgard, Claude, Sylvain, Lorenz, Byleth, and Lysithea all feel solidly S tier. Units like Ashe, Raphael, Flayn, and Dedue (and IMO Shamir due to her learned ability list) do feel subpar compared to much of the cast due to bad abilities or bad learned skills.

[Archeleon]

36 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

For all that I'm a fan of unit tier lists, I definitely feel the opposite in this case. Based on what I've seen so far, I just don't think the gaps between units in this game are very large at all. Three Houses already had smaller gaps in unit quality than average for FE but even then there were very concrete things you could point at between units. In this game the gaps feel quite small indeed; I'm quite confident anyone can be used to achieve S ranks on missions, so in some ways, who cares? Players are just gonna use who they want.

On the other hand I'm already finding this ability tiering very useful to think about, because "which abilities are worth using" is non-trivial but very meaningful question. A character with a great ability loadout is going to be way more effective than one with a poor one, whoever those characters are.

This is very much my sentiment. I think every unit will have a loadout that will let them push into the toughest maps. This list is meant to help spot what abilities are most likely to help in that endeavor.

[Dark Holy Elf]

25 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It is absolutely well balanced for a Warriors game - the worst units in the game would still be solidly mid tier in something like Hyrule Warriors or Age of Calamity.

But disparities absolutely exist. Shez, Ferdinand, Felix, Edelgard, Claude, Sylvain, Lorenz, Byleth, and Lysithea all feel solidly S tier. Units like Ashe, Raphael, Flayn, and Dedue (and IMO Shamir due to her learned ability list) do feel subpar compared to much of the cast due to bad abilities or bad learned skills.

Yeah, in most other Warriors games, such as Hyrule, there were (a) some very weak and very strong movesets, and (b) characters were stuck with said movesets, which led to some characters being much better/worse than others. In this game, even if we end up deciding certain movesets suck, it won't be a big deal for unit tiering because we'll just avoid those movesets. A moveset tier list is another thing which is probably more useful than a unit tier list, on that note.

 

Of course there will still be some gap between units, as you note; I just don't think it's very wide, and thus while a tier list for units isn't devoid of value, it's not as useful as what is been done here.

[Archeleon]

12 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, in most other Warriors games, such as Hyrule, there were (a) some very weak and very strong movesets, and (b) characters were stuck with said movesets, which led to some characters being much better/worse than others. In this game, even if we end up deciding certain movesets suck, it won't be a big deal for unit tiering because we'll just avoid those movesets. A moveset tier list is another thing which is probably more useful than a unit tier list, on that note.

 

Of course there will still be some gap between units, as you note; I just don't think it's very wide, and thus while a tier list for units isn't devoid of value, it's not as useful as what is been done here.

Class tiering will be very interesting. Thing about this game and Houses is that classes can be treated as an equipment set. You get some stat bonuses, some abilities and of course a move set. Some are going to be better than others, but the Busters system does make it so that each class weapon type has a strong place in the usage meta.

[Fabulously Olivier]

4 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Yeah, in most other Warriors games, such as Hyrule, there were (a) some very weak and very strong movesets, and (b) characters were stuck with said movesets, which led to some characters being much better/worse than others. In this game, even if we end up deciding certain movesets suck, it won't be a big deal for unit tiering because we'll just avoid those movesets. A moveset tier list is another thing which is probably more useful than a unit tier list, on that note.

 

Of course there will still be some gap between units, as you note; I just don't think it's very wide, and thus while a tier list for units isn't devoid of value, it's not as useful as what is been done here.

The two are not really separate things. Because certain characters will shine in movesets other than their main, while some otherwise more lacking movesets can be brought up by the right character.

 

For example, Marianne is a uniquely good Dancer/Mortal Savant/Trickster thanks to Blutgang, Essence of Ice, etc.

 

Bishop isn't the best moveset, but Mercedes obviously excels at it, perhaps even more than as a Gremory, because of Essence of Light along with her powerful personal tome. Only thing she's missing is Priests' Wisdom.

 

Crusher Annette is a stun gauge beast, despite not having Death Blow, because of the combination of Crusher, Heaviest Hitter, and Warrior's Wisdom available to her.

[Sire]

As a quick note, I'm imagining these evaluation tiers are based off of Classic mode.
-- If playing on Casual, HP Threshold skills as well as "User Takes More Damage" skill are less of a concern, since the unit does not permanently die. If they are used on an "essential character," I imagine its likely said characters have stat boosts are or otherwise stronger than the regulars.

I say this because as I'm playing normally and unlocking Impossible Feat, I'm debating if putting it on everyone who has access is a good idea or not. Sure, I can use an Elixir, but I only have 85 of them but keeping HP low makes it easy for the character to get one-shot. While this is mostly player error, it's possible for the AI to have low HP and then get caught in an attack while they are near the active character, causing a character death.
-- Wild Abandon can also be considered dangerous, although I'm personally a little more comfortable with that despite a few close calls. Maddening may change my opinion on this though, especially if I stick to Classic Mode.

* * * * *

To add in my cents on the convo, yeah, Bishop moveset sucks. I used it while manually grinding for some Class Masteries, and it does not feel as good as Gremory or Dark Bishop.
-- Even though Flayn and Mercedes have Essence of Light and "canonically built" for Bishop, if I have to manually control them I rather have them as a Gremory.

[Archeleon]

14 minutes ago, Sire said:

As a quick note, I'm imagining these evaluation tiers are based off of Classic mode.
-- If playing on Casual, HP Threshold skills as well as "User Takes More Damage" skill are less of a concern, since the unit does not permanently die. If they are used on an "essential character," I imagine its likely said characters have stat boosts are or otherwise stronger than the regulars.

I say this because as I'm playing normally and unlocking Impossible Feat, I'm debating if putting it on everyone who has access is a good idea or not. Sure, I can use an Elixir, but I only have 85 of them but keeping HP low makes it easy for the character to get one-shot. While this is mostly player error, it's possible for the AI to have low HP and then get caught in an attack while they are near the active character, causing a character death.
-- Wild Abandon can also be considered dangerous, although I'm personally a little more comfortable with that despite a few close calls. Maddening may change my opinion on this though, especially if I stick to Classic Mode.

* * * * *

To add in my cents on the convo, yeah, Bishop moveset sucks. I used it while manually grinding for some Class Masteries, and it does not feel as good as Gremory or Dark Bishop.
-- Even though Flayn and Mercedes have Essence of Light and "canonically built" for Bishop, if I have to manually control them I rather have them as a Gremory.

Even outside of Classic mode I would still consider the fact that once the unit becomes unavailable in Casual you basically lost the opportunity to achieve whatever you wanted to do with that unit in that map. Unless you are purposedly sending them off into suicide missions.

[Sire]

47 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

Even outside of Classic mode I would still consider the fact that once the unit becomes unavailable in Casual you basically lost the opportunity to achieve whatever you wanted to do with that unit in that map. Unless you are purposedly sending them off into suicide missions.

I would say there would be backups of other units to pick up the slack, unless one was relying on the single unit to carry the entire map.
-- There's also the part of restarting the battle, so a death on Classic can waste some minutes depending on the battle while on Casual one can keep playing.
-- I suppose one can start to get into the details on how much one invests into a unit, so a unit that is "maxed out" can easily use the more risky skills versus a unit who is still just mastering all the classes and has no stat boosts.

Also, since Death/resets are no longer much of a concern on Casual, it allows for more experimentation with the HP Threshold skills that regular/cautious play would typically avoid.
-- Whether these builds are good or not are up for debate, but at least the option is there.

[Burklight]

2 hours ago, Sire said:

I would say there would be backups of other units to pick up the slack, unless one was relying on the single unit to carry the entire map.
-- There's also the part of restarting the battle, so a death on Classic can waste some minutes depending on the battle while on Casual one can keep playing.
-- I suppose one can start to get into the details on how much one invests into a unit, so a unit that is "maxed out" can easily use the more risky skills versus a unit who is still just mastering all the classes and has no stat boosts.

Also, since Death/resets are no longer much of a concern on Casual, it allows for more experimentation with the HP Threshold skills that regular/cautious play would typically avoid.
-- Whether these builds are good or not are up for debate, but at least the option is there.

Death is less likely of a problem than just losing an S rank. If you don't care about getting S ranks then WA should move up the tier list quite a bit.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Self-damage does not count against your rank, so Wild Abandon actually makes it easier to achieve S ranks, as long as the character using it does not die.

 

[Burklight]

32 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Self-damage does not count against your rank, so Wild Abandon actually makes it easier to achieve S ranks, as long as the character using it does not die.

 

Wild Abandon doesn't do self damage. You're confusing it with Impossible Feat.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh, right you are. You're right, then. I still think it's likely a positive for achieving S ranks but it's less clearcut.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Instead of a traditional tiering thread for units, perhaps a Rate the Unit type thread would work better so everyone has time to put their input on all the disparate aspects of the characters one at a time.

 

I reckon every 3 days would be a good rotation pace.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Fabulously Olivier

[ZanaLyrander]

Okay, just thought I'd mention that I have now confirmed the 9999 gold caps on Golden Fists and Despoil are independent, you can reach 9999 gold with each in one mission, which can be further increased by breaking gold pots. I just completed a mission and received over 22,000 gold from the 'Earned in Combat' category, for a grand total of over 50,000 gold. Seems like the two together are gonna be fantastic for gold grinding. Shame that Balthus can't learn Despoil, so the only way to use this combo is with his Merc Whistle accessory. 

[Archeleon]

2 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Okay, just thought I'd mention that I have now confirmed the 9999 gold caps on Golden Fists and Despoil are independent, you can reach 9999 gold with each in one mission, which can be further increased by breaking gold pots. I just completed a mission and received over 22,000 gold from the 'Earned in Combat' category, for a grand total of over 50,000 gold. Seems like the two together are gonna be fantastic for gold grinding. Shame that Balthus can't learn Despoil, so the only way to use this combo is with his Merc Whistle accessory. 

Great work, good to know.

[ZanaLyrander]

I've also apparently been sleeping on Rejuvenation. It apparently heals you for a full 10% of your maximum health every 800 hits, which for some classes (like Shez as Asura) essentially makes you immortal, that's so much healing it's kinda stupid when given to a class that racks up hits fast.

[Archeleon]

28 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I've also apparently been sleeping on Rejuvenation. It apparently heals you for a full 10% of your maximum health every 800 hits, which for some classes (like Shez as Asura) essentially makes you immortal, that's so much healing it's kinda stupid when given to a class that racks up hits fast.

It's quite powerful in the right build. It has great synergy with IF and Lifeforce for sure. Though a bit redundant on Holy Knight. That's why it is where it is in the list.

[ZanaLyrander]

So, from what I've gathered, Dual Onslaught basically works by adding you Strength and Magic stats together whenever a damage calculation would call for either of them, right? Because if so, Lorenz's innate ability, Proficient Witstrike, is kinda a joke, because he unlocks it at the same time as Dual Onslaught. What's the point of an ability that calculates damage with your magic stat rather than your strength stat, when you simultaneously unlock an ability that calculates damage with both at once?

[Archeleon]

27 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

So, from what I've gathered, Dual Onslaught basically works by adding you Strength and Magic stats together whenever a damage calculation would call for either of them, right? Because if so, Lorenz's innate ability, Proficient Witstrike, is kinda a joke, because he unlocks it at the same time as Dual Onslaught. What's the point of an ability that calculates damage with your magic stat rather than your strength stat, when you simultaneously unlock an ability that calculates damage with both at once?

The question would be, does Proficient Witstrike cause him to target Res over Def when dealing damage. Units tend to have lower Res than they do Def so it could still be a damage increase. It would default to using Mag but with DO it would use Mag then add Str.

[Archeleon]

Updated the list with a few things after several hours of play. Couple of things to highlight: Moved Stormer of the Land up to B. Moved Concentration and Exalted Breath up to C.