First Pass at a Maddening Tier List

[Burklight]

4 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I do think ignoring deployment restraints is probably a better way to handle a tier list. Making a character lower tier because there's a higher tier unit that fills a similar role seems like putting the cart before the horse. The tier list itself factoring into what tier a character belongs to gets a little confusing because it makes the tier list self-referential. The existence of a better unit for a given build does not inherently make a character worse. For example, Byleth is definitely an S rank unit imo. The fact that you have to use Shez for main missions and thus Byleth is likely to see slightly less use outside of side missions or record keeper battles if you keep them both as sword users (which is hardly necessary, they're both excellent in essentially any class) does not make Byleth any less insanely powerful.

I'll give the deployment restraints some thought.

Imo, Byleth shouldn't be S rank because he/she is absent for 2/3rds of the game. Sharing sword preference with Shaz doesn't help, but I'd have placed Byleth in S rank without a second thought if that was the only issue.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Burklight said:

I'll give the deployment restraints some thought.

Imo, Byleth shouldn't be S rank because he/she is absent for 2/3rds of the game. Sharing sword preference with Shaz doesn't help, but I'd have placed Byleth in S rank without a second thought if that was the only issue.

Hmm... see, availability similarly feels like an odd thing to factor into a tier list. You're absolutely correct, Byleth joins late on every route, and thus they aren't an option for most of the game. But a tier list exists to help make choices on which characters to use. The tier of a character you can't use doesn't matter, that'd be like making units that are route specific lower tier because you don't get to use them on the other two routes. And once you can use them, the fact that you couldn't for a long time also no longer matters in terms of deciding whether or not to use them now. So while I get what you mean, I think factoring that information into what tier they fall into is an odd choice.

[Burklight]

3 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

Hmm... see, availability similarly feels like an odd thing to factor into a tier list. You're absolutely correct, Byleth joins late on every route, and thus they aren't an option for most of the game. But a tier list exists to help make choices on which characters to use. The tier of a character you can't use doesn't matter, that'd be like making units that are route specific lower tier because you don't get to use them on the other two routes. And once you can use them, the fact that you couldn't for a long time also no longer matters in terms of deciding whether or not to use them now. So while I get what you mean, I think factoring that information into what tier they fall into is an odd choice.

I don't think I've ever seen a tier list that didn't take availability into account. If we removed all context, he'd probably be mid/low S. I'm not convinced removing all context is correct.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Burklight said:

I don't think I've ever seen a tier list that didn't take availability into account. If we removed all context, he'd probably be mid/low S. I'm not convinced removing all context is correct.

I don't know the conventions, perhaps you're right. But In a game like this where progress carries over from run to run, and thus for a Maddening tier list you don't really need to worry about units that join late playing catchup, factoring in that context seems strange to me. It seems like a sunk cost sort of thing, when deciding whether to deploy Byleth, prior to them joining, there's nothing to even consider, no decision to make. And after they join, I fail to see how them joining late is relevant, you have them now, and have to decide whether to use them or not.

[Fabulously Olivier]

Just now, ZanaLyrander said:

Hmm... see, availability similarly feels like an odd thing to factor into a tier list. You're absolutely correct, Byleth joins late on every route, and thus they aren't an option for most of the game. But a tier list exists to help make choices on which characters to use. The tier of a character you can't use doesn't matter, that'd be like making units that are route specific lower tier because you don't get to use them on the other two routes. And once you can use them, the fact that you couldn't for a long time also no longer matters in terms of deciding whether or not to use them now. So while I get what you mean, I think factoring that information into what tier they fall into is an odd choice.

Well, there's the obvious caveat for bonus units. It wouldn't matter if Rhea, Sothis, and Arval were literally the best units in the game if you can't use them. And Byleth/Jeralt are an interesting case because they are locked out of half of all routes, and recruiting them means going out of your way to fulfill requirements that may make S ranking more difficult (I certainly feel that way for SB), AND adding two more missions to your playthrough.

 

I'd also say that for units who are already good, high availability, especially across routes is an asset. It may not drop a placement, but maybe it should help a placement.

[ZanaLyrander]

Just now, Fabulously Olivier said:

Well, there's the obvious caveat for bonus units. It wouldn't matter if Rhea, Sothis, and Arval were literally the best units in the game if you can't use them. And Byleth/Jeralt are an interesting case because they are locked out of half of all routes, and recruiting them means going out of your way to fulfill requirements that may make S ranking more difficult (I certainly feel that way for SB), AND adding two more missions to your playthrough.

 

I'd also say that for units who are already good, high availability, especially across routes is an asset. It may not drop a placement, but maybe it should help a placement.

I mean, tbf, I think Rhea, Sothis, and Arval shouldn't have a tier at all due to that, which they currently don't. You can't use them, so there's no decision to be made, no need to rank them. I may be examining this tier list from a different perspective, thinking of it as a guide for which units to use. As a result, I feel like assuming you have access to the unit is kinda necessary to rank them. Because if you don't have access to them, obviously they're F tier, they're completely useless. If you do have access to them, how long that took doesn't really matter at this point.

[Sire]

I think the issue is we may need to define what exactly this Maddening Tier list is supposed to be.
-- We know it's NG+ Maddening, and it leans towards being a general baseline for the entire game.
-- The criteria listed focuses on S-Ranks and assumes the characters are fully built for their role.
== In Three Hopes, anyone can be good, its just some characters outright outclass others due to their preferred equipment, personals, and skills. I don't think there's anyone in Three Hopes who are straight up unusable, but they may be weaker than the majority of the cast.

A part of me wonders if we should make separate lists, like one for each route, so things like availability and potential "deployment conflicts" can be more easily addressed.
-- A separate list that tiers units based off of their usage like Archeleon suggested can also be useful, such as listing those who tend to spam Combat Arts/Magic, those who focus on Warrior Specials/Awakenings, those who just focus on raw damage output, and so on. Also, this one can focus more on end-game potentials in Records, so it also allows the three bonus characters to be ranked.

[Burklight]

7 minutes ago, ZanaLyrander said:

I mean, tbf, I think Rhea, Sothis, and Arval shouldn't have a tier at all due to that, which they currently don't. You can't use them, so there's no decision to be made, no need to rank them. I may be examining this tier list from a different perspective, thinking of it as a guide for which units to use. As a result, I feel like assuming you have access to the unit is kinda necessary to rank them. Because if you don't have access to them, obviously they're F tier, they're completely useless. If you do have access to them, how long that took doesn't really matter at this point.

I left off the bonus units entirely for that reason.

For Byleth, I'm not really worried about catching up or anything like that. Byleth is fantastic from the moment you get him. I also don't think Byleth should be hurt for the runs you decide to not recruit them. I do think that contributing zero for 10-12 chapters should bar you from being S rank. Even when you get Byleth, Byleth isn't obviously better than Claude/Edelgard/Ferdinand, so the idea that Byleth would be so much better to make up for being absent that long doesn't make sense to me.

1 minute ago, Sire said:

I think the issue is we may need to define what exactly this Maddening Tier list is supposed to be.
-- We know it's NG+ Maddening, and it leans towards being a general baseline for the entire game.
-- The criteria listed focuses on S-Ranks and assumes the characters are fully built for their role.
== In Three Hopes, anyone can be good, its just some characters outright outclass others due to their preferred equipment, personals, and skills. I don't think there's anyone in Three Hopes who are straight up unusable, but they may be weaker than the majority of the cast.

A part of me wonders if we should make separate lists, like one for each route, so things like availability and potential "deployment conflicts" can be more easily addressed.
-- A separate list that tiers units based off of their usage like Archeleon suggested can also be useful, such as listing those who tend to spam Combat Arts/Magic, those who focus on Warrior Specials/Awakenings, those who just focus on raw damage output, and so on. Also, this one can focus more on end-game potentials in Records, so it also allows the three bonus characters to be ranked.

I'm not oppose to making it route specific, but I don't think that would actually solve that issue. The units that I ding for availability issues have the same issue regardless of what route they're on. The only outlier I can think of is Jeritza who is significantly better on SB and AG. But even on SB he's competing with Ferdinand as a lance user. If anything I might have him too high.

[ZanaLyrander]

The fact that Byleth is unavailable for most of the game is a perfectly valid criticism. I guess the question you need to ask therefore is whether a tier list is merely a description of the usefulness of various units across the course of the game, or a tool for aiding in decision making for what units to use. If the former, that's fine, but not terribly useful, it's more of a pure observation than anything that helps make decisions in game. If the latter, then as I've pointed out, availability is irrelevant, because the unit either isn't available and thus doesn't need to be considered, or they are available, at which point only their usefulness in battle matters in terms of deciding whether to use them. In terms of usefulness in battle, Byleth is insanely powerful, with numerous strong damage abilities, a powerful unique class, and a personal skill that's practically cheating.

[Fabulously Olivier]

It would be great if they'd remove Shez' deployment requirement for main missions in NG+. Or at least in NG+++ (when you have the full suite of completions). That would give units like Byleth and Felix, who are arguably comparable to Shez, more of a chance to shine.

[ZanaLyrander]

13 minutes ago, Fabulously Olivier said:

It would be great if they'd remove Shez' deployment requirement for main missions in NG+. Or at least in NG+++ (when you have the full suite of completions). That would give units like Byleth and Felix, who are arguably comparable to Shez, more of a chance to shine.

That's partially why I sometimes enjoy swapping Shez to Dark Knight or a Tome class, it gives other sword wielders more opportunity to shine. Don't get me wrong, Asura is fantastic, but Shez can excel in a lot of different classes (though I admit I avoid any class that can't use magic, Shez's dark magic is just too powerful to abandon)

[Archeleon]

I do think these are meant for usage in getting S rank in Maddening for all maps using Records towards the end of the routes. Is there a point otherwise? Are people really concerned with how well the units do while trying to clear a route in Maddening? 

 

Availability tends to come up in games like Binding Blade, for example because you genuinely only have so much time before the end of the game to get your units up to snuff for the later maps. That is not a limiting factor here.

[Fabulously Olivier]

11 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

I do think these are meant for usage in getting S rank in Maddening for all maps using Records towards the end of the routes. Is there a point otherwise? Are people really concerned with how well the units do while trying to clear a route in Maddening? 

 

Availability tends to come up in games like Binding Blade, for example because you genuinely only have so much time before the end of the game to get your units up to snuff for the later maps. That is not a limiting factor here.

I mean, preferably you don't want to use the Record Keeper more than you have to. Getting an S rank the first time feels better and doesn't have you replaying a bunch of chapters at once.

[Sire]

37 minutes ago, Archeleon said:

I do think these are meant for usage in getting S rank in Maddening for all maps using Records towards the end of the routes. Is there a point otherwise? Are people really concerned with how well the units do while trying to clear a route in Maddening? 

Availability tends to come up in games like Binding Blade, for example because you genuinely only have so much time before the end of the game to get your units up to snuff for the later maps. That is not a limiting factor here.

This comes down to preference I believe.

After clearing all three routes, you can just sit back at the base camp and begin getting S-Ranks on Maddening Difficulty through the Record Keeper. This is easily done by changing the difficulty from Settings, and one just goes to town!
-- This way you have access to every character and Shez is not force-deployed.

However, personally I find it better to replay the routes again on Maddening mode, instead of going through Records.
-- While this does bring up availability issues and is slowed down slightly through the story segments (which can be skipped), it offers an abundance of resources.
=== Training Points (faster class EXP), Smithing Stones (from excess Building Materials), Stat Boosters (Renown, Anna's Shop, Map Rewards), and so on.
-- It also allows one to play through the "alternative route" of either killing/recruiting Byleth and seeing where that goes.

[Archeleon]

Then that bumps route-exclusive and late-coming units down quite a bit.

[ZanaLyrander]

Agreed. I think the point of unit tier list is to recommend certain units. You can't recommend a unit you don't have access to, and once you do have access to that unit, how many chapters you played without them doesn't really matter.

[Fabulously Olivier]

23 minutes ago, Sire said:

This comes down to preference I believe.

After clearing all three routes, you can just sit back at the base camp and begin getting S-Ranks on Maddening Difficulty through the Record Keeper. This is easily done by changing the difficulty from Settings, and one just goes to town!
-- This way you have access to every character and Shez is not force-deployed.

However, personally I find it better to replay the routes again on Maddening mode, instead of going through Records.
-- While this does bring up availability issues and is slowed down slightly through the story segments (which can be skipped), it offers an abundance of resources.
=== Training Points (faster class EXP), Smithing Stones (from excess Building Materials), Stat Boosters (Renown, Anna's Shop, Map Rewards), and so on.
-- It also allows one to play through the "alternative route" of either killing/recruiting Byleth and seeing where that goes.

I'd say replaying is a more worthwhile experience for the boosters alone. There's no real way to farm them outside of replays.