Latest No NG+ Maddening Run

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/29/2022 at 1:53 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

We're talking about the final battle, here; it's perfectly reasonable for anyone without a bane to be at A authority by then, if that's important for someone's build. I usually try to give Black Eagle Pegasus to someone besides Byleth or Edelgard, because those two have huge charm so I'd rather they run offensive gambits.

And there's the rub. I'd generally rather have Byleth or Edelgard run something with an offensive gambit.

On 10/29/2022 at 1:53 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

In addition, there's also Empire Elite Wyverns (B rank) and the surprisingly competent Empire Pegasus Co (D rank). If you have the DLC, there's even more (Secret Transport Force, Nuvelle Fliers for a mage). Yes, there are grounded battalions with better stats, but given that Wyvern Lord itself has high stats to soften the blow, I think the case for using a significant number of fliers on the final map of CF is very strong.

I dunno -  I think sacrificing quality for quantity is a questionable move. As for Empire Pegasus... If I'm running so many fliers that some of them have to settle for that, I'd consider that a BAD thing thanks to diminishing returns and opportunity cost. Therefore, I disagree. FWIW, I left out the DLC because the OP didn't have it. Also, having to invest in Flying on so many units would only impose on me, and not have a good enough payoff to justify it. Which begs the question, how many fliers do you tend to use??

[Dark Holy Elf]

36 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno -  I think sacrificing quality for quantity is a questionable move. As for Empire Pegasus... If I'm running so many fliers that some of them have to settle for that, I'd consider that a BAD thing thanks to diminishing returns and opportunity cost.

I can understand why you might kneejerk this way, but if you actually look at the numbers, you'll see that you're either underrating Empire Pegasus, underrating Wyvern Lord, or both. If you don't make someone a Wyvern, what are you making them instead? Let's say you make them an Assassin or Grappler, since those are the grounded physical classes that actually have respectable mobility on this map. Conveniently they have very similar stats. And let's give the grounded unit a random, competent physical battalion. Leicester Mercenaries works well as an illustration, i hope: it's certainly solid. So, adding together class modifiers and battalion bonuses, we get:

• Wyvern with Empire Pegasus: +8 atk, +16 hit, +10 avo, +6 prot, +4 rsl, +6 cha
• Assassin/Grappler with Leicester Mercanaries: +7.5 atk, +23 hit, +15 crit, 0 avo, +4.5 prot, –0.5 rsl, +7 cha (note: I took the average of the two classes where they had a 1-point stat gap)

As you can see, the better stats of Leicester Mercs mostly just offset the better stats of Wyvern Lord (the grounded class wins hit/crit, the wyvern wins durability). This means that Wyvern Lord, with its 2 extra move and Canto, is still the better overall class to be in, all things being equal (i.e. assuming no character-spectific combat arts or traits). Honestly, even a Wyvern Lord with Seiros Pegasus/Empire Wyverns is a competent performer here.

53 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Which begs the question, how many fliers do you tend to use?

Me? It varies a lot by the type of run I'm doing. The answer is "usually less than I think is objectively optimal" but that's because I like trying out different classes and different builds. But broadly, if you're talking about having a powerful team, especially in CF where three of the last four maps are just completely dominated by flier mobility, I'd say that making a majority of your physical units fliers is a solid plan. And for the record, I have used six fliers at once before, and can assure you it works well.

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/30/2022 at 4:00 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I can understand why you might kneejerk this way, but if you actually look at the numbers, you'll see that you're either underrating Empire Pegasus, underrating Wyvern Lord, or both. If you don't make someone a Wyvern, what are you making them instead? Let's say you make them an Assassin or Grappler, since those are the grounded physical classes that actually have respectable mobility on this map. Conveniently they have very similar stats. And let's give the grounded unit a random, competent physical battalion. Leicester Mercenaries works well as an illustration, i hope: it's certainly solid. So, adding together class modifiers and battalion bonuses, we get:

• Wyvern with Empire Pegasus: +8 atk, +16 hit, +10 avo, +6 prot, +4 rsl, +6 cha
• Assassin/Grappler with Leicester Mercanaries: +7.5 atk, +23 hit, +15 crit, 0 avo, +4.5 prot, –0.5 rsl, +7 cha (note: I took the average of the two classes where they had a 1-point stat gap)

As you can see, the better stats of Leicester Mercs mostly just offset the better stats of Wyvern Lord (the grounded class wins hit/crit, the wyvern wins durability). This means that Wyvern Lord, with its 2 extra move and Canto, is still the better overall class to be in, all things being equal (i.e. assuming no character-spectific combat arts or traits). Honestly, even a Wyvern Lord with Seiros Pegasus/Empire Wyverns is a competent performer here.

Me? It varies a lot by the type of run I'm doing. The answer is "usually less than I think is objectively optimal" but that's because I like trying out different classes and different builds. But broadly, if you're talking about having a powerful team, especially in CF where three of the last four maps are just completely dominated by flier mobility, I'd say that making a majority of your physical units fliers is a solid plan. And for the record, I have used six fliers at once before, and can assure you it works well.

Honestly, I think you're overrating both. Prolly because you are looking through rose-colored glasses (AKA, you're only seeing the positive). Admittedly, though, I *REALLY* don't give a rat's ass about Wyvern Lord in this game. At all. Wyvern Lord isn't so great that it makes running what would be at that point a Stone Age battalion justifiable. Also, you're ignoring gambits; the Leicester Mercenaries' Blaze would be more impactful, esp. in the context of the last boss, where a battalion with a large AOE will help me break their armor quicker. Not to mention diminishing returns; ergo, adding more fliers would eventually no longer be beneficial. All this being said, if I do have any fliers, they'll be Falcon Knights, Claude, or the occasional Dark Flier.

[Dark Holy Elf]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I think you're overrating both. Prolly because you are looking through rose-colored glasses (AKA, you're only seeing the positive). 

I provided all the numbers, not just the ones that help my case, so... no, you don't get to play that card.

I will grant that Blaze is a legitimate advantage that Leicester Mercs have. I'd rather have +2 move and flight, myself.

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Admittedly, though, I *REALLY* don't give a rat's ass about Wyvern Lord in this game [...] 

All this being said, if I do have any fliers, they'll be Falcon Knights, Claude, or the occasional Dark Flier.

All this statement does is establish you have a very unusual sense of what makes for a good class in Three Houses. Wyvern Lord wins pretty much every single "best class" poll I've ever seen for this game. Falcon Knight is just Wyvern Lord with worse stats. It's not bad, but the only units who should consider it are ones who have a much easier time training lances than axes (e.g. Bernadetta, Marianne, and possibly Ingrid). Falcon Knight would also be better for Dimitri, Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth, and Jeritza, but... y'know.

The original poster used four Wyvern Lords. This is not an esoteric or unusual choice on their part. It's a great class option, likely the best, for every single one of those units.

 

[Mordred]

On 10/29/2022 at 11:02 AM, Shadow Mir said:

I find your overconfidence disturbing. Don't they say that pride goes before a fall? Because I would NEVER underestimate the AI. Hell, if they were really as stupid as you're claiming, we wouldn't be at each other's throats right now.

I'd say that the problem with axes is their users, more often than not. Especially the infantry (honestly, axe infantry are very very consistent with having crippling weaknesses and not having the strengths to make up for their weaknesses). Case in point: Fates. Camilla is great, especially as a Wyvern Lord. Scarlet is great too, in Birthright at least. The other units that start with axes.... Not so much. Rinkah in particular is an especially egregious case because she's the only natural Oni Savage in the game.

Once again, premium flying battalions are very limited. That fact would limit my inclination to have a lot of flying units. In the context of CF, the only other noteworthy flying battalion that isn't Galatea or Cichol is the Black Eagle Pegasus Co., which is gated behind an A rank. In general, I would expect Byleth or the lord (Edelgard in this case) to be the only units to get A authority in a timely manner.

What would you call something that is so easily subverted because it has a ton of holes (not to mention mastering mediocre classes to obtain)? The most damning indictment about Wrath/Vantage, however, is that it's pretty much win-more (as in, it won't turn a losing situation around, and is only particularly effective when the situation is already favorable for you). Of course, Battalion Wrath/Battalion Vantage is legitimately good because it isn't nearly as risky (the skills work together to guard Dimitri [who is free to be at full health because it only needs the battalion to be at 1/3 endurance], and his high charm means enemies' attempts to use gambits on him will most likely fail to connect).

What are you talking about?  It's AI and as such is predictable.  The AI does not make mind games it has predetermined tatics and predetermined actions.

On the topic of axes in fates the reason why they're a good weapon class in that game is that they're essentially tied to the strongest classes in the game.  Wyvern Lord/Malig Knight and Berserker are the biggest standouts of this.  Berserker having poor combat but giving so many stats as a backpack while also giving Hp+5 to children since Fates has like no hp growths or allowing a unit that is a Wyvern Flyer Axefaire.  I think it's kind of ridiculous to say that the units that use axes in Fates are bad when in Conquest all of the units that use axes in their base classes all have good combat or utility and Birthright having a total of two axe users with Rinkah and Scarlet with Scarlet being really strong with her only weakness is that she's deployed when Ryoma is.  And in Rev you get all of them except for Scarlet in a way.

I mean Dark Holy Elf already talked about this but let me put into perspective what you're saying ignoring gambits or battalions.  To use a ground battalion you're gonna have to use a grounded unit on the last map of CF.  This means any flyer unit is barred from being used except for two/three flyers.  This means the other 9 units must be grounded with a grounded battalion.  The only classes in FE3H that ignore terrain and are grounded are Mages not mounted, Thieves, Brawlers, Assassins, and Grapplers.  In other words any unit not in those classes they will have movement reduced to around 4 mov past the stairs on the last map.  This means you will have to essentially slowly pull in your units one by one while also avoiding any of the golems.  Not only that but they will also have to rely on the flyers on your team to kill the Sniper/Ashe and two other enemies there if you're going to the left or killing Gilbert and the other two Fortress Knights to avoid getting your units getting ORKOed while going up the stairs.  Ofc this is assuming you take the fastest path to Rhea by avoiding any Golem agro by going through the middle.  Add the reinforcements after going up the second flight of stairs in the middle and it's likely quite a few of your units will be stuck in their range when they have to go up the stairs one by one.  To put it simply, having at least 4 flyers for CF makes the last few maps and specifically last one a lot easier just due to mov which honestly is more valuable then having one more offensive gambit when you can save all of your offensive gambits for Rhea and Ferdinand can very easily tank Rhea thanks to avoid and Rhea having like 32% displayed hit.

For one Mastering the classes isn't much of a problem when you can very easily grind any skill for any unit.  You can easily see that with all of my mages having Hit +30.  Second, uh no you haven't made any holes?  You just keep repeating the same thing as if it means anything different each time.  No AI is predictable, mastering one Intermediate Class or one Advanced Class isn't that big of a deal, yes it takes set up and some extra math but so does a lot of set ups in FE, the Battalion durability is honestly not that big of a deal.  Again it's not like I'm saying it's op or should be used on every unit.  I used it on Byleth as they get high Cha which essentially gives any gambit on them 0% hit and to enemy phase some enemies that were really annoying to kill.

On 10/31/2022 at 3:08 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Honestly, I think you're overrating both. Prolly because you are looking through rose-colored glasses (AKA, you're only seeing the positive). Admittedly, though, I *REALLY* don't give a rat's ass about Wyvern Lord in this game. At all. Wyvern Lord isn't so great that it makes running what would be at that point a Stone Age battalion justifiable. Also, you're ignoring gambits; the Leicester Mercenaries' Blaze would be more impactful, esp. in the context of the last boss, where a battalion with a large AOE will help me break their armor quicker. Not to mention diminishing returns; ergo, adding more fliers would eventually no longer be beneficial. All this being said, if I do have any fliers, they'll be Falcon Knights, Claude, or the occasional Dark Flier.

Wyvern Lord is the best physical class in the game, the only reason the whole Wyvern Lord Emblem meme isn't true is because you get diminishing returns past 3.  However, just because you're getting diminishing returns on increasing the size of a gold mine doesn't mean you still don't benefit from it.  While ground battalions are generally better than flying battalions it doesn't change how impactful having more than 3 Wyvern Lords, especially on CF, can be.  Ofc this comes with the caveat that having something like 8 flyers is bad and ridiculous.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Mordred

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/8/2022 at 1:55 AM, Mordred said:

On the topic of axes in fates the reason why they're a good weapon class in that game is that they're essentially tied to the strongest classes in the game.  Wyvern Lord/Malig Knight and Berserker are the biggest standouts of this.  Berserker having poor combat but giving so many stats as a backpack while also giving Hp+5 to children since Fates has like no hp growths or allowing a unit that is a Wyvern Flyer Axefaire.  I think it's kind of ridiculous to say that the units that use axes in Fates are bad when in Conquest all of the units that use axes in their base classes all have good combat or utility and Birthright having a total of two axe users with Rinkah and Scarlet with Scarlet being really strong with her only weakness is that she's deployed when Ryoma is.  And in Rev you get all of them except for Scarlet in a way.

Honestly, Malig Knight is pretty subpar, as is Berserker. To be blunt, I find no compelling reason to use a Malig Knight when odds are the unit is better in another class (let's face it, it's just another subpar hybrid class - something I have a very low opinion of). Look at Camilla. She improves big time as a Wyvern Lord. Berserker is much better as an enemy class in Fates than it is as a player class (and no, good pair up bonuses does not come close to redeeming Berserker; being a good pair up bot is nothing special). Also, I DID say Camilla and Scarlet are good in that statement you quoted, and I in fact use them as mainstays in my runs of their respective routes. The problem is almost everyone else. Arthur, Charlotte and Rinkah are honestly all among the worst units in their respective casts; Arthur has no luck, meaning he's liable to eat crits from cannon fodder (something his shitstain of a personal skill only makes worse), Charlotte comes underleveled and is mega fragile, and Rinkah has poor stats aside from defense, which she can't even put to good use because she has poor HP to go with it. Or do you think those three losers have enough redeeming features to warrant their use over just about anyone else??? Because I think those three's negatives more than eclipse any positives they might have going for them.

On 10/31/2022 at 10:28 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

All this statement does is establish you have a very unusual sense of what makes for a good class in Three Houses. Wyvern Lord wins pretty much every single "best class" poll I've ever seen for this game. Falcon Knight is just Wyvern Lord with worse stats. It's not bad, but the only units who should consider it are ones who have a much easier time training lances than axes (e.g. Bernadetta, Marianne, and possibly Ingrid). Falcon Knight would also be better for Dimitri, Ferdinand, Sylvain, Seteth, and Jeritza, but... y'know.

The original poster used four Wyvern Lords. This is not an esoteric or unusual choice on their part. It's a great class option, likely the best, for every single one of those units.

I'm not saying Wyvern Lord isn't a good class, but I do think you expecting me to just be a good little sheep and worship the ground it walks on like everyone and their grandma does is utterly laughable. For the record, the only classes in 3H I actively consider bad are War Monk/Cleric, Holy Knight, and Mortal Savant. And Great Knight, but that's more because it's awkward to qualify for than anything else. That said, with Cyril and Seteth being the only units who have easy access to it (by which I mean having pluses in all the skills needed to get into it), it prolly isn't something I'll be chomping at the but to use any time soon (thanks to Cyril being Cyril and Seteth coming late).

Edited November 28, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

'm not saying Wyvern Lord isn't a good class, but I do think you expecting me to just be a good little sheep and worship the ground it walks on like everyone and their grandma does is utterly laughable. For the record, the only classes in 3H I actively consider bad are War Monk/Cleric, Holy Knight, and Mortal Savant. And Great Knight, but that's more because it's awkward to qualify for than anything else. That said, with Cyril and Seteth being the only units who have easy access to it (by which I mean having pluses in all the skills needed to get into it), it prolly isn't something I'll be chomping at the but to use any time soon (thanks to Cyril being Cyril and Seteth coming late).

... have you considered that the reason "everyone and their grandma worships the class" (which, granted, is an exaggeration), is because it's good? Because many people have used it and found it effective? Not sure where you're going with that line about sheep. Either you think that you're smarter than everyone else who plays this game (rather rich since last I checked you still haven't finished a Maddening file yourself) or you can acknowledge that maybe if a lot of people say they find something effective, it might in fact be effective.

In addition to Cyril and Seteth, Claude and Petra also have both relevant boons to the class line (I know you were probably including lances,, so just to set the record straight: boon vs. neutral for a C rank by Level 30 is nearly irrelevant). Edelgard and Hilda both have incredibly easy paths too, since they have an axe boon and can trivially train lance+flying as Pegasus midgame. Honestly it's a pretty easy class for anyone with an axe boon to get to, generally. It helps that Wyvern Rider is B/C which is significantly easier than B/B or mono-A to by level 20.

Again, we saw four Wyvern Lords in the OP's post: Edelgard, Petra, Byleth, and Ferdinand. This is not a remotely unusual build for any of them, or a difficult class for any of them to reach.

[haarhaarhaar]

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Honestly it's a pretty easy class for anyone with an axe boon to get to, generally. It helps that Wyvern Rider is B/C which is significantly easier than B/B or mono-A to by level 20.

Completely second this. It is very doable to get C-rank in a movement ability by Ch. 10-11 (with or without a bane), when Advanced class certifications are beginning to happen, and B-rank Axes by that point may only be an issue if the unit has a bane. 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That said, with Cyril and Seteth being the only units who have easy access to it (by which I mean having pluses in all the skills needed to get into it), it prolly isn't something I'll be chomping at the but to use any time soon (thanks to Cyril being Cyril and Seteth coming late).

I do think you're overestimating the difficulty of accessing Wyvern Rider/Lord. I can see arguments against individual units becoming Wyvern Lords (for example, the case for Cyril using Wyvern Lord over Bow Knight isn't cut and dry, and the route/chapter you're talking about will also bear on it), but I don't think you've made a case for not running any Wyvern Lords. Especially since you do run Falcon Knights. 

[Shadow Mir]

On 11/28/2022 at 4:02 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I do think you're overestimating the difficulty of accessing Wyvern Rider/Lord. I can see arguments against individual units becoming Wyvern Lords (for example, the case for Cyril using Wyvern Lord over Bow Knight isn't cut and dry, and the route/chapter you're talking about will also bear on it), but I don't think you've made a case for not running any Wyvern Lords. Especially since you do run Falcon Knights. 

I'm not a fan of axes, as far as this game is concerned. 9 times out of 10, my units perform better with other weapons. Like Hilda, for example. I've had her abandon axes entirely in my current run, which has been on hiatus, in favor of going Bow Knight. Even in my first run, where she was in-house, her performance with axes tended to be lackluster to the point where I had her give axes a wide berth. It doesn't help matters that axe combat arts are mostly lackluster. That being said, the general lack of weapon restrictions in this game means that I could have any unit use any weapon in any class, but investing heavily in axes when I won't be using them sounds silly as hell, to be honest with ya.

On 11/27/2022 at 9:55 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

... have you considered that the reason "everyone and their grandma worships the class" (which, granted, is an exaggeration), is because it's good? Because many people have used it and found it effective? Not sure where you're going with that line about sheep. Either you think that you're smarter than everyone else who plays this game (rather rich since last I checked you still haven't finished a Maddening file yourself) or you can acknowledge that maybe if a lot of people say they find something effective, it might in fact be effective.

In addition to Cyril and Seteth, Claude and Petra also have both relevant boons to the class line (I know you were probably including lances,, so just to set the record straight: boon vs. neutral for a C rank by Level 30 is nearly irrelevant). Edelgard and Hilda both have incredibly easy paths too, since they have an axe boon and can trivially train lance+flying as Pegasus midgame. Honestly it's a pretty easy class for anyone with an axe boon to get to, generally. It helps that Wyvern Rider is B/C which is significantly easier than B/B or mono-A to by level 20.

On Maddening, I have not played it. I at least want to know the game inside out before trying that. I ain't gonna lie, I don't have anywhere near the level of experience with the game I would consider myself as needing to have to be ready for that; heck, I haven't played 3H in ages. Anyway, my skepticism is based on my feeling that axes just are not that good in 3H. And no, I don't think I'm smarter than everyone else. I just have different experiences, and a tendency to take what others say with a grain of salt (in my case though, it's more like a whole salt shaker; hey, having your hopes betrayed when you try to trust others' advice does very bad things to your ability to trust others. That's pretty much THE reason why I'm a lone wolf). It's hard for me to look at axes as being as good as you think they are when I have yet to see anyone perform on a level that I would consider satisfactory with them.  As stated above, I've found Hilda to have shaky accuracy with axes more often than I'd like. 

I wouldn't have mentioned Claude, to be honest, as his personal class can be summed up as "Wyvern Lord, but specializing in bows instead of axes". Heck, Barbarossa and Wyvern Lord's base stats are exactly the same, bar the 3 extra HP Barbarossa has. Now, there's more to the story, but yeah, I'd be disinclined to get him into Wyvern Lord when he gets a class that's pretty much exactly the same as it for the low, low price of free.

[haarhaarhaar]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Like Hilda, for example. I've had her abandon axes entirely in my current run, which has been on hiatus, in favor of going Bow Knight. Even in my first run, where she was in-house, her performance with axes tended to be lackluster to the point where I had her give axes a wide berth. It doesn't help matters that axe combat arts are mostly lackluster

Hilda definitely has accuracy issues that need help. But Wyvern Lord is only two points lower than Bow Knight in Atk with bows (maybe a couple more or less depending on battalion disparities) - Wyvern Lord's boost to Str growth also means this gap could shrink. Bow Knight gives her extra range, but she's unlikely to make much use of it beyond passive linked attack support, precisely because of those hit issues. So there's at least a decent case for choosing flying over the passive range boost/a couple of points in attack Bow Knight provides - even if I was running her mainly for Bows. And, of course, Hilda has a generally easier time hitting ranks for Wyvern Lord than Falcon Knight, or Bow Knight for that matter (more on this below).

As an aside, Wyvern Rider starts three points behind Sniper with Bows (again, before battalion differences), but the Mv difference is also greater. So there's a similar calculus with Advanced classes as well. Even for Bows, the wyvern line is either lateral or an upgrade on Bowfaire classes (depending on how much you appreciate flying).

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

investing heavily in axes when I won't be using them sounds silly as hell, to be honest with ya.

For Bow Knight, you're also raising Riding without being likely to use it in advance - you're likely to have to raise at least one arbitrary rank for any unit going into Master classes.

In Hilda's case, to get her to Wyvern Lord, you don't have to go higher B Axes (maybe even lower if you plan on pushing Flying and picking up Alert Stance+), which for someone with a boon isn't particularly demanding if you plan for it. Movement ranks are raised passively in relevant classes, so anyone who hits Wyvern Rider should be fairly comfortable with getting at least B Flying. But there's no natural mounted stepping stone getting Riding to B before Bow Knight. As for weapon ranks, Hilda wants Brigand in any semi-optimised run, she doesn't need much training to be able to try out for it, and even just adjutant-ing her through Brigand with an axe equipped if you won't use them in combat should get her close to B. 

Ultimately, Hilda is just an example. Straight physical attackers are often best served in Wyvern Lord, because its stat boosts and boost to Str growths mean its damage stays competitive with other Master classes, and it can fly with 8 Mv. The exceptions I can think of are class-specific builds (Hero + Wrath, crit-focused Swordmaster, Sniper), gauntlets users, def-tanks, optimised War Master's Strike (but that's Axes, so you won't care about that), Point-Blank Volley (which makes the case for Bow Knight a bit stronger for Cyril and Leonie, although flying is still not to be sneezed at), and units with banes in Axes and/or Flying (although I've seen people put Dimitri etc. in Wyvern Lord, and while I personally wouldn't bother, the results are very strong). You could be running all of those units/builds in one party, I guess - but odds are you aren't, so there tends to be space for a Wyvern Lord.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

War Master's Strike (but that's Axes, so you won't care about that)

I'd say the real issue with that is that it requires mastering a Master tier class - something I generally don't see happen before the game is over. It's powerful, but that doesn't help any if the game is over before I get the chance to master the class it is associated with.

On 12/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Hilda definitely has accuracy issues that need help. But Wyvern Lord is only two points lower than Bow Knight in Atk with bows (maybe a couple more or less depending on battalion disparities) - Wyvern Lord's boost to Str growth also means this gap could shrink. Bow Knight gives her extra range, but she's unlikely to make much use of it beyond passive linked attack support, precisely because of those hit issues. So there's at least a decent case for choosing flying over the passive range boost/a couple of points in attack Bow Knight provides - even if I was running her mainly for Bows. And, of course, Hilda has a generally easier time hitting ranks for Wyvern Lord than Falcon Knight, or Bow Knight for that matter (more on this below).

As an aside, Wyvern Rider starts three points behind Sniper with Bows (again, before battalion differences), but the Mv difference is also greater. So there's a similar calculus with Advanced classes as well. Even for Bows, the wyvern line is either lateral or an upgrade on Bowfaire classes (depending on how much you appreciate flying).

Personally... while flying is something I can get in other classes, 2 extra bow range isn't. There's also the matter of battalions, which is one of the big reasons why I limit the amount of flying units I run.

On 12/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

As for weapon ranks, Hilda wants Brigand in any semi-optimised run, she doesn't need much training to be able to try out for it, and even just adjutant-ing her through Brigand with an axe equipped if you won't use them in combat should get her close to B. 

If I'm using her as an adjutant - someone who's likely gonna be one of my better characters - the only thing I'm accomplishing is shooting myself in the foot, in all likelihood. Especially in Golden Deer.

On 12/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

For Bow Knight, you're also raising Riding without being likely to use it in advance - you're likely to have to raise at least one arbitrary rank for any unit going into Master classes.

That's a fair point. The lack of needing to raise an arbitrary other rank is why Gremory is my favorite Master class. It's straightforward to get into for any magically inclined females. 

On 12/1/2022 at 5:57 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Point-Blank Volley (which makes the case for Bow Knight a bit stronger for Cyril and Leonie, although flying is still not to be sneezed at)

There's that, but that also runs completely counter to the big selling point of Bow Knight.

Edited December 7, 2022 by Shadow Mir

[haarhaarhaar]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd say the real issue with that is that it requires mastering a Master tier class - something I generally don't see happen before the game is over. It's powerful, but that doesn't help any if the game is over before I get the chance to master the class it is associated with.

Yeah, all other classes arrive early enough/are easy enough to master that you can do it naturally, if you don't care about when they master it, but Master Classes require an active commitment, and probably planning in advance. But it certainly can be done, especially on Maddening where the combat is tougher and your units see more combat on average. Consider that you're normally hitting Master Classes by Ch.15-6, you need between 50-100 actions (depending on how much you use the Knowledge Gem) to master the class, and you're likely to have anywhere between 10-16 story/paralogue maps, plus however much you aux battle in Part 2, before the endgame. Without significant grinding, you're unlikely to get more than a unit or two to master a Master Class in a timely fashion, but it's certainly possible - and War Master has arguably the best class mastery of anything in that tier. So I wouldn't write it off (I'm trying this for Felix in my current run, will keep track of if/when he masters the class). Incidentally, I mastered War Master for Byleth in CF (Ch. 16 I think) after some favouritism and a bit of grinding, so if you're open to that I guess that's also a route.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Personally... while flying is something I can get in other classes, 2 extra bow range isn't. There's also the matter of battalions, which is one of the big reasons why I limit the amount of flying units I run.

Without significant help, Hilda isn't going to be able to hit regularly at 3 spaces, let alone 4. And the battalions which help hit rate enough to mitigate bow penalties (i.e. Edmund Troops, Essar Research Group, and I guess Golden Deer/Varley Archers too, although I can't recommend either to anyone) only give attack boosts in the realm of C-rank flying battalions. Unless you're doing some interesting things, like having Hilda master Archer and Valkyrie, she's still going to be soft locked to 2-range, or 3-range Curved Shot, no matter which class she runs. The passive linked attack boost is more generally relevant - but I'm not sure it's enough of a difference-maker between Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord. 

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I'm using her as an adjutant - someone who's likely gonna be one of my better characters - the only thing I'm accomplishing is shooting myself in the foot, in all likelihood. Especially in Golden Deer.

I may have been a bit unclear there - I'm not actually saying she needs to be an adjutant, just that she'd get pretty close to B-rank Axes even as an adjutant, because you said previously you wouldn't use Axes in actual combat. Even if you only have Axes as tutoring/passive goal, she'll be very capable of C/C+ Axes by Lvl 20 and B Axes by Lvl 30.

6 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

There's that, but that also runs completely counter to the big selling point of Bow Knight.

This isn't completely true. Bow Range +2 is cool (and it is a selling point), but the big selling point of Bow Knight is having mounted Bowfaire. Bow Range +2 is a bonus that you have to build a unit specifically for in order to utilise well, and is otherwise just a passive boost for other units. At least, this is how it is on Maddening. Although from my experience even on Hard, Bow Knight's are struggling to hit things at 4 spaces without Curved Shot or other help. In the case of Cyril/Leonie, mounted Bowfaire (and, as you mention, greater choice of high-quality battalions from being grounded) mean you can optimise Point-Blank Volley for max damage, while maintaining the ability to get close enough to enemies to launch it. On some maps, you'd still rather be a flier, because reaching an enemy with PBV is more important than maxing out its damage, but provided the terrain is accommodating, Bow Knight is the better choice.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:44 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

This isn't completely true. Bow Range +2 is cool (and it is a selling point), but the big selling point of Bow Knight is having mounted Bowfaire. Bow Range +2 is a bonus that you have to build a unit specifically for in order to utilise well, and is otherwise just a passive boost for other units. At least, this is how it is on Maddening. Although from my experience even on Hard, Bow Knight's are struggling to hit things at 4 spaces without Curved Shot or other help. In the case of Cyril/Leonie, mounted Bowfaire (and, as you mention, greater choice of high-quality battalions from being grounded) mean you can optimise Point-Blank Volley for max damage, while maintaining the ability to get close enough to enemies to launch it. On some maps, you'd still rather be a flier, because reaching an enemy with PBV is more important than maxing out its damage, but provided the terrain is accommodating, Bow Knight is the better choice.

On your last statement: How practical is it to try to qualify for both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord?? I cannot help but assume that isn't practical at all. You're looking at investing in flying, riding, axe, lance and bow. That's a lot, even ignoring authority. Setting that up would require levels of investment that would make Great Knight pale in comparison.

On 12/7/2022 at 6:44 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

I may have been a bit unclear there - I'm not actually saying she needs to be an adjutant, just that she'd get pretty close to B-rank Axes even as an adjutant, because you said previously you wouldn't use Axes in actual combat. Even if you only have Axes as tutoring/passive goal, she'll be very capable of C/C+ Axes by Lvl 20 and B Axes by Lvl 30.

Fair, but... that's assuming I have her equipped with an axe during her time as an adjutant. And that I have her work on axes during tutoring.

On 12/7/2022 at 6:44 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Yeah, all other classes arrive early enough/are easy enough to master that you can do it naturally, if you don't care about when they master it, but Master Classes require an active commitment, and probably planning in advance. But it certainly can be done, especially on Maddening where the combat is tougher and your units see more combat on average. Consider that you're normally hitting Master Classes by Ch.15-6, you need between 50-100 actions (depending on how much you use the Knowledge Gem) to master the class, and you're likely to have anywhere between 10-16 story/paralogue maps, plus however much you aux battle in Part 2, before the endgame. Without significant grinding, you're unlikely to get more than a unit or two to master a Master Class in a timely fashion, but it's certainly possible - and War Master has arguably the best class mastery of anything in that tier. So I wouldn't write it off (I'm trying this for Felix in my current run, will keep track of if/when he masters the class). Incidentally, I mastered War Master for Byleth in CF (Ch. 16 I think) after some favouritism and a bit of grinding, so if you're open to that I guess that's also a route.

That's dependent on a lot of factors, honestly. And I dunno about you, but eventually I get to the point where just say "screw it" and terminate my battle days early.

[Dark Holy Elf]

2 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On your last statement: How practical is it to try to qualify for both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord?? I cannot help but assume that isn't practical at all. You're looking at investing in flying, riding, axe, lance and bow. That's a lot, even ignoring authority. Setting that up would require levels of investment that would make Great Knight pale in comparison.

 

It's a decent amount, but it's doable. Turns out that not requiring any A ranks goes a long way to reducing the cost of a build.

Going from E to B costs 680 exp if you start at E (although both Leonie and Cyril start with base exp in a number of these skills). Going from E to C costs 300. Going from E to B+ costs 960. B/B+/C gives you a 50% certification rate in these classes, which is good enough for most purposes. So having two B+, two B, and one C is 3580 exp. 3880 if you also want C authority. I generally consider skill exp under 4000 to be perfectly reasonable for lategame assuming a decent number of boons (Leonie has three, Cyril has all five). You might not get both classes right at Level 30, but getting one ASAP and one shortly after is entirely reasonable.

*Leonie presumably wants A bows for Point-Blank Volley so she'll spend an extra 140 exp by going for A/C+ for Bow Knight instead of B/B+, I just realized.

Consider that it's a common practice to get a mage to S reason, which is 2520 exp alone. If they also get B faith and B authority as well, that's the exact same 3880 as Cyril. And also serves as a good illustration of how a three-skill build can easily rack up the same cost as a 6-skill one.

Now that said, you're definitely incurring some costs by getting both classes instead of just one: you probably won't get A+ in any skills, so that's a hit to accuracy/evade for weapon, and means you won't be able to afford Move+1 or Alert Stance+. You also will likely have to settle for weaker battalions, depending on route/DLC. But it certainly doesn't strike me as unreasonable, for all that I admit that I've never done it.

[haarhaarhaar]

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

On your last statement: How practical is it to try to qualify for both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord?? I cannot help but assume that isn't practical at all. You're looking at investing in flying, riding, axe, lance and bow. That's a lot, even ignoring authority. Setting that up would require levels of investment that would make Great Knight pale in comparison.

Pretty practical imo, provided you're willing to have 30% acceptance rates. My Cyril at the moment (end of Ch. 15 AM) has B Axes/Flying, C Lances, B+ Bows, C Riding and B Authority. So he's already able to try for Wyvern Lord, and is about 200 WEXP from trying for Bow Knight. For context, he's only had the Knowledge Gem when he was mastering Brigand, otherwise I've mostly been fielding him in battle without it. In my particular case, I think Cyril will stay in Wyvern Lord until the endgame chapters, because he hopefully won't need the Bow Knight power boost till then. Which buys me extra time - but I'm in the position of being able to get Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord much earlier than that. I guess bear in mind that Cyril has boons in every relevant rank here bar Authority, but yeah it's doable. 

For what it's worth, Great Knight is only an issue if you don't plan on going through Fortress Knight and Paladin. Again, assuming 30% certs, you only need C+ Axes, B Armour, and B+ Riding. If you're gunning for Mv+1 and using Paladin, then you should reach B+ pretty naturally, and you need C+ Axes/C+ Armour to try for Fortress Knight, spending some time in Fortress Knight should get you to B. Of course, it'll be harder if you won't use both those classes. Alternatively, getting to B+ Axes and B+ Riding means you only need C Armour, which isn't much of an investment and Wt-3 is quite useful. It isn't for everyone, but it's not unmanageable. At the end of Ch. 15 AM, my Ferdinand is at C+ Axes, B Armour, and 40 WEXP shy of B+ Riding - and he just got Swift Strikes. He mastered Fortress Knight as an adjutant, and uses Paladin for combat. I don't particularly care about getting him to Great Knight, but he will have that option.

6 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Now that said, you're definitely incurring some costs by getting both classes instead of just one: you probably won't get A+ in any skills, so that's a hit to accuracy/evade for weapon, and means you won't be able to afford Move+1 or Alert Stance+. You also will likely have to settle for weaker battalions, depending on route/DLC. But it certainly doesn't strike me as unreasonable, for all that I admit that I've never done it.

Definitely a concern. I think I have a shot at A+ in primary weapon even for those units raising 5 ranks or more, but it will probably depend on how much combat they see. And I'm really not sure about A+ in movement ranks - I wasn't planning to anyway, but my Cyril definitely won't get Mv+1, for example. But I think my Ferdinand has a shot, even without grinding. Let's see, I guess.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Fair, but... that's assuming I have her equipped with an axe during her time as an adjutant. And that I have her work on axes during tutoring.

Well exactly. Again, since for you it's basically an arbitrary rank, times when she isn't fighting would be the ideal times to have her work on Axes.

9 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's dependent on a lot of factors, honestly. And I dunno about you, but eventually I get to the point where just say "screw it" and terminate my battle days early.

Aux battling quickly gets tiring, even for people who aren't opposed to it in principle, so yeah I get it. Even without aux battles though, and assuming you want mastery by Ch. 20 AM/SS, or Ch. 21 VW, you won't need to average more than 12 actions per map at most - which is acting most Player Phases on a map, and having a couple of Enemy Phases (which a War Master should be capable of). Provided you aren't LTC-ing maps, just the story and paralogue maps you have available should be enough, provided that you keep their class mastery progress in mind as you play. And all this is assuming no Knowledge Gem, which obviously speeds things up a lot. I do believe it's gettable without aux battling, although I am doing some aux battles in my current run for various reasons - we'll see if/how much that helps.

[Shadow Mir]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:42 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

Consider that it's a common practice to get a mage to S reason, which is 2520 exp alone. If they also get B faith and B authority as well, that's the exact same 3880 as Cyril. And also serves as a good illustration of how a three-skill build can easily rack up the same cost as a 6-skill one.

In theory, yes. However! In a typical mage build, all three of those skills are ones they can passively work on in battles. I cannot say this of the six skill build being proposed, as Riding and Flying require being in specific classes to raise through battles.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Shadow Mir
Posted prematurely

[Dark Holy Elf]

57 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

n theory, yes. However! In a typical mage build, all three of those skills are ones they can passively work on in battles. I cannot say this of the six skill build being proposed, as Riding and Flying require being in specific classes to raise through battles.

You actually have that backwards. You can only boost two of those mage skills with a given action in battle (either reason or faith, plus authority). With riding and flying, you raise them while raising a weapon skill and authority... essentially giving you more total skill exp per action.

EDIT: On top of this, riding/flying can be further boosted though group tasks.

Edited December 10, 2022 by Dark Holy Elf

[Shadow Mir]

16 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

You actually have that backwards. You can only boost two of those mage skills with a given action in battle (either reason or faith, plus authority). With riding and flying, you raise them while raising a weapon skill and authority... essentially giving you more total skill exp per action.

EDIT: On top of this, riding/flying can be further boosted though group tasks.

Fair, but still, those are dependent on you being in specific classes in the first place (admittedly though, this is also true of magic skills). And said classes require level 10 at least (20 for males and flying). Honestly, working on two movement skills sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth... and the benefits are far eclipsed by the costs.

On 12/9/2022 at 5:35 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

Pretty practical imo, provided you're willing to have 30% acceptance rates. My Cyril at the moment (end of Ch. 15 AM) has B Axes/Flying, C Lances, B+ Bows, C Riding and B Authority. So he's already able to try for Wyvern Lord, and is about 200 WEXP from trying for Bow Knight. For context, he's only had the Knowledge Gem when he was mastering Brigand, otherwise I've mostly been fielding him in battle without it. In my particular case, I think Cyril will stay in Wyvern Lord until the endgame chapters, because he hopefully won't need the Bow Knight power boost till then. Which buys me extra time - but I'm in the position of being able to get Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord much earlier than that. I guess bear in mind that Cyril has boons in every relevant rank here bar Authority, but yeah it's doable. 

Even if I was okay with the bare minimum pass chance, that still sounds like a lot of work for something that sounds niche as hell.

On 12/9/2022 at 5:35 AM, haarhaarhaar said:

For what it's worth, Great Knight is only an issue if you don't plan on going through Fortress Knight and Paladin. Again, assuming 30% certs, you only need C+ Axes, B Armour, and B+ Riding. If you're gunning for Mv+1 and using Paladin, then you should reach B+ pretty naturally, and you need C+ Axes/C+ Armour to try for Fortress Knight, spending some time in Fortress Knight should get you to B. Of course, it'll be harder if you won't use both those classes. Alternatively, getting to B+ Axes and B+ Riding means you only need C Armour, which isn't much of an investment and Wt-3 is quite useful. It isn't for everyone, but it's not unmanageable. At the end of Ch. 15 AM, my Ferdinand is at C+ Axes, B Armour, and 40 WEXP shy of B+ Riding - and he just got Swift Strikes. He mastered Fortress Knight as an adjutant, and uses Paladin for combat. I don't particularly care about getting him to Great Knight, but he will have that option.

The issue here is that investing in two movement skills is awkward as hell. Doesn't help that pretty much no one has boons in all of the ranks needed to qualify for Great Knight (just what, Ferdinand and Gilbert?)...

[haarhaarhaar]

3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even if I was okay with the bare minimum pass chance, that still sounds like a lot of work for something that sounds niche as hell.

The minimum pass thing seems to divide people here. Yes, it's a RNG lottery that is much more against you if you try for 30% than for 67%, or 100%. If you won't save-scum, and don't want to spare money for more Master Seals, then yeah maybe you shouldn't bother trying at that degree of chance. But if you allow 30% certification rates, you should be able to try certifying the moment you hit your level requirement, while raising other relevant ranks (i.e. Authority/Bows). If you're gunning for 100% certification rates, that's roughly an extra 1000-1300 WEXP (depending on which combo of ranks you had for 30%), which will take even units aiming for infantry Master Classes at least 2-3 months more to get, where those ranks may not be relevant outside of the certification itself. Even if all the ranks you're raising are relevant for that build's combat, the 100% build is only better off than the 30% if the 30% build fails to certify for the entire time it would have taken to get to 100% pass rates. Which is not impossible, but is pretty unlikely. 

Also, what do you mean by niche here? Bow Knight is a class you agree is good. Wyvern Lord is a class that almost everybody else agrees is good, and is the highest Str flying class in the game, which is relevant for many builds. Normally, units don't want Bow Knight if they have Wyvern Lord, but bow users, and Cyril/Leonie in particular, would like both. Because Point-Blank Volley can get between +6 and +14 damage in Bow Knight compared to Wyvern Lord, likely with better Hit and Crit too. Endgame enemies on average exceed the HP/Prt of their counterparts two chapters earlier by similar intervals - even assuming you've picked up some levels in between, units that get KOs two chapters before endgame will likely need help to get KOs on equivalent units in the final chapter. Giving them another class takes some pressure off using stat-boosters on them.

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The issue here is that investing in two movement skills is awkward as hell. Doesn't help that pretty much no one has boons in all of the ranks needed to qualify for Great Knight (just what, Ferdinand and Gilbert?)...

I agree Great Knight has awkward certification requirements, which is why I suggested only units interested in both Paladin and Fortress Knight have an easy time of it. But getting to B-rank just via tutoring/instruction is more than achievable by Lvl 30, and with 30% certification no rank ever needs to be higher than B. The bigger issue with Great Knight is that its niche is trampled by Paladin (better mobility/Lancefaire), Fortress Knight (better bulk), and Wyvern Lord (better compromise of mobility/power/bulk with Axefaire, and competitive for lance users too). As a class, it was designed for compromise between Paladin and Fortress Knight, but Maddening encourages builds that double down on one specialism. If it were a better class, people wouldn't complain so much about the cert requirements - people didn't complain nearly as much about Dark Knight, even pre-DLC. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, haarhaarhaar said:

The minimum pass thing seems to divide people here. Yes, it's a RNG lottery that is much more against you if you try for 30% than for 67%, or 100%. If you won't save-scum, and don't want to spare money for more Master Seals, then yeah maybe you shouldn't bother trying at that degree of chance. But if you allow 30% certification rates, you should be able to try certifying the moment you hit your level requirement, while raising other relevant ranks (i.e. Authority/Bows). If you're gunning for 100% certification rates, that's roughly an extra 1000-1300 WEXP (depending on which combo of ranks you had for 30%), which will take even units aiming for infantry Master Classes at least 2-3 months more to get, where those ranks may not be relevant outside of the certification itself. Even if all the ranks you're raising are relevant for that build's combat, the 100% build is only better off than the 30% if the 30% build fails to certify for the entire time it would have taken to get to 100% pass rates. Which is not impossible, but is pretty unlikely. 

Also, what do you mean by niche here? Bow Knight is a class you agree is good. Wyvern Lord is a class that almost everybody else agrees is good, and is the highest Str flying class in the game, which is relevant for many builds. Normally, units don't want Bow Knight if they have Wyvern Lord, but bow users, and Cyril/Leonie in particular, would like both. Because Point-Blank Volley can get between +6 and +14 damage in Bow Knight compared to Wyvern Lord, likely with better Hit and Crit too. Endgame enemies on average exceed the HP/Prt of their counterparts two chapters earlier by similar intervals - even assuming you've picked up some levels in between, units that get KOs two chapters before endgame will likely need help to get KOs on equivalent units in the final chapter. Giving them another class takes some pressure off using stat-boosters on them.

I'm talking about qualifying for both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord as "niche". I'd find that to be too much work for something that prolly wouldn't justify the effort. Or the sacrifices I'd have to make to make it happen, for that matter. 

On certifications: I'm willing to take a cert at non-100 success chances - if the chances are actually decent. 30% is too low for me.

[haarhaarhaar]

15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'm talking about qualifying for both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord as "niche". I'd find that to be too much work for something that prolly wouldn't justify the effort. Or the sacrifices I'd have to make to make it happen, for that matter

I take the point that it's building more ranks than strictly necessary. But as I said before, I'm actually trying this right now, and have (almost) achieved it with Cyril, so I know it can be done in a timely manner and without aux battle grinding. If there are sacrifices, they are potentially in getting abilities tied to higher ranks - I won't be trying for Alert Stance+ or Mv +1 on Cyril, and Bow Crit +10 may or may not be possible. And PBV Cyril/Leonie would definitely appreciate Mv +1/Bow Crit +10 (Mv +1 is a shoo-in for anybody's endgame, Bow Crit +10 is a bit less competitive but still great for PBV).

However, since Cyril/Leonie want C Lances anyway for Bow Knight, and at least D+ Axes (C Axes if you want 100% certs) for Death Blow, they need 1060-1180 WEXP to get to 30% pass rates for Wyvern Lord, another (assuming 20 Luck) 280 WEXP to get to 50%, and a further 280 WEXP to get to 70%. On the other hand, B Riding to A+ Riding is 1080 WEXP. B Bows to S Bows is 1840 WEXP. If you're only raising Bows/Riding/Authority by the time you get to Lvl 30, you should probably do better than B in Bows/Riding (although depending on build plan, you may only be raising Riding in the classroom so B may be fair). But it's still a big chunk of WEXP (and of the game) that you're waiting on Mv+1 or Bow Crit+10. You should be able to certify for Wyvern Lord much earlier than you can get either of those abilities. And, like I said before, Wyvern Lord allows these units to reach enemies they otherwise couldn't in at least some Part 2 maps, which is a crucial pillar of the build.

In all honesty, it's getting to A+ and higher in secondary ranks, or to S rank and beyond in your primary rank, that should be framed as the sacrifice. Offensive mages love S Rank Reason, but are also fairly unlikely to be killing things in late-game Maddening. Every other build should be thinking long and hard about whether they need to get ranks beyond B+ or A, because generally speaking the returns do diminish from that point on.

[Shadow Mir]

36 minutes ago, haarhaarhaar said:

I take the point that it's building more ranks than strictly necessary. But as I said before, I'm actually trying this right now, and have (almost) achieved it with Cyril, so I know it can be done in a timely manner and without aux battle grinding. If there are sacrifices, they are potentially in getting abilities tied to higher ranks - I won't be trying for Alert Stance+ or Mv +1 on Cyril, and Bow Crit +10 may or may not be possible. And PBV Cyril/Leonie would definitely appreciate Mv +1/Bow Crit +10 (Mv +1 is a shoo-in for anybody's endgame, Bow Crit +10 is a bit less competitive but still great for PBV).

However, since Cyril/Leonie want C Lances anyway for Bow Knight, and at least D+ Axes (C Axes if you want 100% certs) for Death Blow, they need 1060-1180 WEXP to get to 30% pass rates for Wyvern Lord, another (assuming 20 Luck) 280 WEXP to get to 50%, and a further 280 WEXP to get to 70%. On the other hand, B Riding to A+ Riding is 1080 WEXP. B Bows to S Bows is 1840 WEXP. If you're only raising Bows/Riding/Authority by the time you get to Lvl 30, you should probably do better than B in Bows/Riding (although depending on build plan, you may only be raising Riding in the classroom so B may be fair). But it's still a big chunk of WEXP (and of the game) that you're waiting on Mv+1 or Bow Crit+10. You should be able to certify for Wyvern Lord much earlier than you can get either of those abilities. And, like I said before, Wyvern Lord allows these units to reach enemies they otherwise couldn't in at least some Part 2 maps, which is a crucial pillar of the build.

In all honesty, it's getting to A+ and higher in secondary ranks, or to S rank and beyond in your primary rank, that should be framed as the sacrifice. Offensive mages love S Rank Reason, but are also fairly unlikely to be killing things in late-game Maddening. Every other build should be thinking long and hard about whether they need to get ranks beyond B+ or A, because generally speaking the returns do diminish from that point on.

That's exactly the problem - you dramatically increase the needed effort, but the reward isn't increased. Also, the effort of chasing both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord would likely detract from Authority, which would hurt more than having access to Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord would help.

 

[haarhaarhaar]

44 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's exactly the problem - you dramatically increase the needed effort, but the reward isn't increased. Also, the effort of chasing both Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord would likely detract from Authority, which would hurt more than having access to Bow Knight and Wyvern Lord would help.

So you're agreeing with my points above, or not? I feel like something's been lost in translation here.

I'm saying getting Wyvern Lord + Bow Knight on Cyril/Leonie is easier, or at least comparable, to trying to pick up high-investment skills like Bow Crit +10. I'm also saying raising 4-6 ranks to C or B by Level 30 or so is more than doable, not least because I have actually done it. Going beyond B+ in secondary ranks, as you would if you're trying to get high certification rates in Master classes, is often sub-optimal, as the benefits tends to diminish. But E to B is far more manageable, especially when compared to the effort needed for A+ and beyond, which is why it isn't ridiculous to suggest you can get both Wyvern Lord/Bow Knight, while maintaining Authority.

As a data point, my Ingrid on this run hit Level 30 in Ch. 15, and certified for Bow Knight (30% rates) at the third time of asking. Seeing that she was at Lvl 30, I decided to do something similar to my Cyril plan with Ingrid - sending her to get a Falcon Knight cert so she can build Spd before the endgame. She started training Swords at the beginning of Ch.15 - it was one of her two goals (alongside Armour, which will contribute to her final skillset but is not a priority). She received sauna and tutoring, and spent a paralogue as an adjutant (no grinding, completed in 9 turns), and she went from E+ to C, classing into Assassin by the Ch. 15 story battle. She got most of her Flying WEXP from Pegasus Knight, and didn't even need a full week of active instruction to hit C+ Flying. She passed through C+ Lances in Ch. 16, and will likely hit B Lances during Ch. 17 (she trained to C pretty easily in the early game and Peg Knight). At that point, she can attempt the Falcon Knight cert. That's less than three whole chapters to complete a pivot from Bow Knight to Falcon Knight. Falcon Knight is a bit kinder than Wyvern Lord for certification, and she spent a decent amount of time in Peg Knight. But even if she hadn't, I'd hardly call what I'm doing a sacrifice, since Spd is even more important to a non-Cyril/Leonie Bow Knight than Mv+1, or any other high-investment skill.  

I've been doing a lot of talking, so I should ask what your experiences/expectations are for a build by endgame, as that seems to be the major difference between our views.

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, haarhaarhaar said:

So you're agreeing with my points above, or not? I feel like something's been lost in translation here.

I'm saying getting Wyvern Lord + Bow Knight on Cyril/Leonie is easier, or at least comparable, to trying to pick up high-investment skills like Bow Crit +10. I'm also saying raising 4-6 ranks to C or B by Level 30 or so is more than doable, not least because I have actually done it. Going beyond B+ in secondary ranks, as you would if you're trying to get high certification rates in Master classes, is often sub-optimal, as the benefits tends to diminish. But E to B is far more manageable, especially when compared to the effort needed for A+ and beyond, which is why it isn't ridiculous to suggest you can get both Wyvern Lord/Bow Knight, while maintaining Authority.

As a data point, my Ingrid on this run hit Level 30 in Ch. 15, and certified for Bow Knight (30% rates) at the third time of asking. Seeing that she was at Lvl 30, I decided to do something similar to my Cyril plan with Ingrid - sending her to get a Falcon Knight cert so she can build Spd before the endgame. She started training Swords at the beginning of Ch.15 - it was one of her two goals (alongside Armour, which will contribute to her final skillset but is not a priority). She received sauna and tutoring, and spent a paralogue as an adjutant (no grinding, completed in 9 turns), and she went from E+ to C, classing into Assassin by the Ch. 15 story battle. She got most of her Flying WEXP from Pegasus Knight, and didn't even need a full week of active instruction to hit C+ Flying. She passed through C+ Lances in Ch. 16, and will likely hit B Lances during Ch. 17 (she trained to C pretty easily in the early game and Peg Knight). At that point, she can attempt the Falcon Knight cert. That's less than three whole chapters to complete a pivot from Bow Knight to Falcon Knight. Falcon Knight is a bit kinder than Wyvern Lord for certification, and she spent a decent amount of time in Peg Knight. But even if she hadn't, I'd hardly call what I'm doing a sacrifice, since Spd is even more important to a non-Cyril/Leonie Bow Knight than Mv+1, or any other high-investment skill.  

I've been doing a lot of talking, so I should ask what your experiences/expectations are for a build by endgame, as that seems to be the major difference between our views.I simply don't

On endgame builds: My expectations for an endgame build are dependent on exactly what I am trying to do with the unit in question for that particular run. Mages in particular are an easy answer: at least S reason.

I'm saying it isn't worth it to chase that many rabbits. Sure, Cyril has an advantage when it comes to trying to get both... but that's countered by the fact that it's Cyril. And I find working with Cyril to be a tough sell, to be blunt. And again, I don't consider 30% to be good enough to try for. Especially when stats (namely luck, which most units don't tend to have high numbers in) have some bearing on that number.

[haarhaarhaar]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

On endgame builds: My expectations for an endgame build are dependent on exactly what I am trying to do with the unit in question for that particular run. Mages in particular are an easy answer: at least S reason.

I'm saying it isn't worth it to chase that many rabbits.

Do you find yourself struggling to reach certification ranks by the time you hit level requirements? Do you get for one unit two ranks or more to A+ by endgame? If you use Lysithea, would you expect S+ and not just S rank? When you say that it isn't worth it to chase all this stuff, I'm left wondering what it is you do after your unit meets all their build requirements. Or maybe your units don't meed build requirements till very late? This is why I was asking the question.

8 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Sure, Cyril has an advantage when it comes to trying to get both... but that's countered by the fact that it's Cyril. And I find working with Cyril to be a tough sell, to be blunt. And again, I don't consider 30% to be good enough to try for. Especially when stats (namely luck, which most units don't tend to have high numbers in) have some bearing on that number.

I agree that Cyril is not the best. But PBV, even on Cyril, is good enough to net you kills consistently through the game. 

The 30% thing we'll just agree to disagree on. But as far as Luck is concerned, it'll depend on your units. Some will reach 20 Luck on average by Lvl 30, and you could help a couple of others with Goddess Icons. Getting to 20 Luck, depending on unit, may be easier than picking up another weapon rank, so it's worth considering.