Psyruby
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Everything posted by Psyruby
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Basically Warrior Weapons don't allow the same possibilities as Brave Weapons for two reasons. 1) Builds don't wildly fluctuate their power level. Adding 20 Attack to a Warrior Weapons makes them do 20 more damage, but adding 20 Attack to Brave Weapons makes them do 40 more damage(on the player phase). 2) Warrior weapons are a defensive weapons which means the opponent must decide to attack you, be within one range, and not kill you before you attack. This is a lot of restrictions and relies on the opponent more than yourself. Brave Weapons, on the other hand, have you decide who you attack, and you are always sure if you can kill them reliably before they get to attack. This is basically the difference in power of player and enemy phase for the player.
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Well the intention wasn't to force the majority of players into one ruleset, but more of try to define a ruleset for people who are interested in a fulfilling metagame. I will most definitely play people with "No Rules" if they don't have a team for "Balanced" or "Odin's Sphere." However, I know some people would love to create a metagame here with complex interactions that don't strictly result in a movement based ORKO. I would like to get the ball rolling so those people are all consistent when they get the English version of the game. (Yes, this is premature by a couple months, but I'm happy that I started crunching numbers so early so I understand what are possible issues in PvP.)
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Snake God, Mighty Kunai, and Mighty Bow are all the brave version of ranged weapons(with rather poor name choices). They will not be allowed in balanced and count as a brave weapon in Odin's Sphere. I think that's balanced cause ranged weapons are actually the easiest way to ORKO even in Balanced and Odin's Sphere due to the physical weapons having rather poor option to respond to ranged weapons(unless you have defensive formation, are faster, or can use Magic Swords/Lances/Axes well).
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I would consider this a custom mode for 2 close friends to use. The issue with this unlike boots and forging is that skills have an opportunity cost(the skill slot) and promote interaction(or the denial of interaction) with the other player. So even tho it might be perceived as a pain to get the skills like forging, it's not like having a certain skill makes you strictly better off. (basically, the effort to maintain this rule is not worth the payoff)
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Only one brave weapon for the entire party. If you let multiple units have brave weapons, you will allow everyone to become broken with ORKOs.
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(if tl:dr, then just read the rules, pros, cons of each ruleset and then vote) I have created 3 distinct PvP rules that are appealing to most individuals. If anyone wants to give feedback, I encourage them to post below. I will only change a rule in each ruleset if someone proves that specific rule is outright toxic, useless, or needs tweaking. No Rules(Maximizes Freedom) 1) No Rules. Just like it states, there are no limitations. Most people will probably use these rules just cause they are the simplest and anything is allowed. In a meta like this, everyone has the capability to ORKO through damage, skills, lethality, criticals, and copycat shenanigans and tanking isn't even possible other than the General taking two rounds instead of one like other units. Pros: Simple Rules. Fast matches. Doesn't interfere with single player options. Cons: Unbalanced. Favors aggro way too much. The game becomes a movement war. Balanced(Maximizes Player Interaction) 1) No Boots. 2) No Forged Weapons. 3) No Copycat. 4) No Brave Weapons. Alright, so I just need to say it. Brave weapons break the game by allowing good sets to be broken sets. You can ORKO every unit not specifically made to counteract Brave Weapon ORKOs. This limits options and favors just ORKOing instead of trying to interact with the opponent, but you don't want to get rid of all these lovely options(well except Copycat, that's broken by itself). Instead, you just get rid of what they all have in common. For those that are worried, you can still ORKO even generals, but specific builds are needed and these builds have counters. This allows you to use tanky classes to well.... tank. And yes, Lightning(the tome) isn't banned. This gives mages a favorable niche while not making them overpowered(as they are quite squishy and Lightning is quite weak without being able to forge). You can still counteract this strategy with the right build. Forged weapons are banned for a couple reasons. A) You aren't favoring player interaction by encouraging them to grind just to keep up with others. B) There is absolutely no opportunity cost to forging except time. Forged weapons are strictly better than unforged. C) They push critical builds over the top. They will start ORKOing too many units with even limited forged weapon. Boots are banned for very similar reasons. A) It's just favorable to have more boots, which isn't adding to player interaction. B) Boots affect different classes(and characters), well, differently. Flying units(and Takumi) are favored to use boots more than non-flying. Finally Copycat is broken, It's a free action somewhere else on the map. Allowing copycat is saying you require every character to have copycat, and that adds nothing to the game. Pros: Simple rules. Balanced Gameplay. Aggro and Defensive Play are equal in power. Cons: Can't use a few of the fun options. Games may take longer than you like. Interferes with how you play single player. And the final Ruleset: Odin's Sphere(Maximizes Interest) 1) One Boot per team allowed. 2) Forged Weapons only allowed to +1. 3) Copycat restricted to one unit. 4) Only one Brave Weapon(can be +1) per team allowed. So, you want broken stuff but still want balance(and maybe you want Odin's ability to actually do something in a semi balanced environment), then these are the rules for you. Sure you can ORKO like before with one unit, but it's painting a giant target on that unit's back. These rules give boots, copycat, and brave weapons an opportunity cost when attaching them to a unit, but still allows you to use them. Pros: Semi balanced gameplay. Favors Aggro, but defensive play is still a good option. Favors a faster paced match. Cons: Rules are somewhat complicated in comparison. Interferes with single player slightly.
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"I just want to know one thing!" - Fire Emblem: Fates
Psyruby replied to Rapier's topic in Fire Emblem Fates
I already asked this question, but didn't get a response. Can weapons that "~ can't activate skills or critical" still activate Pavise and Aegis? I ask this cause the fine print on the website says only "offensive proc skills" are affected. -
You know, Im about to announce the results of my number crunching where I exclude forging, boots, copycat, and brave weapons, and this talk of the great club copycat rescue strategy tells me I was right to deny those first 3.
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"I just want to know one thing!" - Fire Emblem: Fates
Psyruby replied to Rapier's topic in Fire Emblem Fates
Can Pavise and Aegis still activate when holding things like Javelins? -
Just making sure again, but can Pasive and Aegis still activate on a unit with a weapon that says, "Can't activate skills or critical"?
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We pretty much decided that Copycat should be banned or heavily restricted. It causes way too many problems. Also, like I said before, if you take away brave weapons, this whole ORKO situation goes away. If you die before counterattacking, it's cause the match up was terrible. Which pretty much resolves the potency of Rescue, Lethality, EV+LoD, and even forged/unique weapons.
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Kind of late to the party, but does Ignis really use half of your Str when using a physical based weapon and half of your Mag when using a Magic based weapon like it says on the website? In Awakening, it was the opposite and I perceived that as more balanced than the current version.
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lol, if we really wanted to get rid of the MAJORITY of problems in FE with the least amount of banning... we'd just ban Brave Weapons.... Kind of funny when you think about it. Those damn things cause the most amount of issues, but we love them so much as an idea to break.
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Whoops. Didn't mean to post.
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Looking back on it, yeah Breaking Sky is valid, but I felt the need to point out a flaw of the skill, I still hold by tho that Rescue isn't 100% broken to the point of other broken combos being nothing compared to it. Rescue is more like a combo deck in a card game(MtG). 95% of all normal teams are going to be DESTROYED by it, but the people who think about making their team with the big strategies in mind will try to use one of the available units that can make the combo not work. Rescue CAN be countered BECAUSE it requires a lot of resources to have it running(provided we don't give it LoD, EV, Copycat, or Lethality). You have to have two staff users, a bruiser, and 2 free units. However, the combo is effectively destroyed when you get rid of even one of the 3 units(especially one of the staff users) and it has units that it can't OHKO. Don't just sit there and say you can't beat it, think of ways around it, and when you can't find a good way around it, that's when you have consider banning/restricting something.
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There is a difference between having low defensive growth and low strength when caring about PvP. You can use stat up items to cover your defensive growth. You WON'T use stat up items on your strength. Having 12 strength on something with less than 25% strength growth is actually pretty hard. EDIT: Also the sorcerer needs 16 strength by your calculation, not 12.
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Some units have 5-15% Str growth and magic classes have no growth in Str usually. So they might have 2-10 Str... but do you really want something that might not work out? Also, they would try to minimize their Strength growth for just this type of situation. the difference is that the defense benefits you more than Luna harms you.... but strength... strength only hurts you as a mage.
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Cause you don't control Breaking Sky's damage increase. If Breaking Sky activates against something with 0 Str(aka a Mage), you better be damn sure the rest of your attack can kill the opponent.
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I keep on running the numbers, and it seems to me that the tanks can deal with the damage output of Takumi/fliers and respond. Takumi Brave Bow vs. Handaxe General(defensive formation) (32(Str)+8(Mt)+3(WB)+7(I'll assume aggressor)+20(auto assume Luna goes off)-40)*2= 60 Damage. Takumi Brave Bow vs. Horse God Shura. ((32+8-1(WB denied and WT disadv.)+7+19(Luna)-39(Horse God buffed Defense))*2= 52 Damage. Takumi Brave Bow vs. Handaxe Great Knight(defensive formation) (32+8+3+7+18(Luna)-37)*2 = 62 Damage. And this is with the assumption Luna(or skill of equivalent power) always goes off. You'd need 3 skills to get that type of guarantee and there aren't even that many with high activation rate with the same power as Luna. Breaking Sky and Vengeance are unreliable, Aether and Astra have much lower activation rate, so that just leaves Ignis. Also, the Fliers have an even bigger issue of Counter being a real threat on the tanks(except Shura) I just showed living through Takumi. They have lower strength(well 3 of them are equal or less), can't do anything about defensive formation, are in range of normal attacks, and we haven't even gotten into terrain defensive bonuses, Pavise, or other good defensive skills. They would just murder themselves with this strategy. The only thing allowing them to beat the tanks is if they pull off lethality or LoD/Extravagance. So we have to use the Rescue strategy, fliers, or proper tanks on our team of 5. That's 3 different methods(each with multiple class answers). What can you do about LoD+EV on high mobility characters? Well... you will either be alpha striked and the other guy wins, or you will lose a unit each turn, then kill one of their units, then they kill that unit, and so on and so forth until he kills your last unit. EDIT: You could put LoD or EV on your units, but isn't that proving my point about those skills having just as bad affect on PvP when combined with certain builds? EDIT: EDIT: I do see your point about Rescue, but to say it is more over-centralizing seems to be giving more credit than it really should have. I'd probably limit it to one Rescue staff user per team if it started to completely over-centralize the metagame.
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Falcon Warrior statwise and pair up wise are superior almost strictly. They have the same movement, higher speed, and if you want a ranged attack, then just raise a mixed Falcon Warrior and give them Shiranui(the magic spear). The only thing the Golden Kite would have over them is 2 of 3 weapon in the triangle, but having staves is useful in its own right(especially in PvP where you only have 5 units to begin with). If you want something that kills fliers with high mobility, then just use a Bow Knight. Wyvern Lords fill a much different role than Falcon/Golden Kites/Revenant Knights. They basically are mobile physical tanks They compete with Great Knights for this role, but those two options both have their ups and downs and there definitely isn't a clear cut answer. Revenant Knights... well... I don't like them statwise. They kind of are inferior to Dark Knights. Kind of like Bow Knight to Golden Kite, but you could argue they are more useful for flying and having more weapon triangle coverage.
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Okay, I need to speak about this, so I'll try to be as unbiased as possible(it won't work out that way). Golden Kite Warriors as in game units are great. They can deal with fliers, they have amazing range/movement, and access to bows which are good weapons this game. HOWEVER, as PvP units they will probably be some of the worst in the game. Their stat caps are terrible, they have 2 weaknesses, their pair up bonuses are meh, the weapons available to them are only average at best, and they only have one niche, which is to kill fliers before they get the first strike(and Bow Knights come damn close to filling that hole most of the time). When I say to myself, "I'd rather use a Bow Knight." There is something wrong.
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Theoretical maximum Damage hit is possibly Over 1000.
Psyruby replied to Airship Canon's topic in Fire Emblem Fates
The main game? It's strategy based if you don't grind. There is a lot of managing resources, positioning, and tactical advantages. PvP? Well.... as long as we carefully manage what is possible, it's very likely PvP will be strategy based. (Random PvP won't be strategy based, it will be Alpha Strike based.) -
It's the same as Awakening for A-E rank, but S ranks are: Sword/Kunai: +4 Attack, +5 Hitrate. Lances/Tomes/Bows: +3 Attack, +10 Hitrate. Axes: +2 Attack, +15 Hitrate.
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I'm going to be honest... if you don't have ONE high mobility unit, then that's more your fault. Also, this seems way more problematic if it is possible to OHKO, which is the majority of what should be prevented in PvP. Allowing OHKO with units never meant to in the first place(unless some serious class advantage, weapon advantage, and skill activation are going on) makes the "first" player have much more advantage than the second. Which is why I call into question things like Lethality, EV+LoD, and even forging tbh. Cause those are the three biggest ways for OHKO to happen. Otherwise these Rescue staff shenanigans can be punished cause you will have a retaliation attack and all of your units after the first round(unless you ****ed up and placed a bad unit for combat out front). EDIT: Also in a 5v5, if you do this strategy, you have already committed 3 units. That's a heavy investment, provided OHKO isn't possible.
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Berserker doesn't even need LoD, however the Berserker is supposed to OHKO/2HKO. This is fine as the Berserker has low movement(provided you didn't give him boots), which means he more revenge kills(well... he gets revenge on those who hurt him) and less alpha strikes. Really, EV+LoD is only an issue on horses/pegasus/dragons, and while it's super awesome to say the Golden Kites are good against it, you are centralizing the game if only one unit has a true advantage(and you really could just work around this weakness. Golden Kites are very weak compared to other units, both offensively and defensively.)
