The "worst" pre-promote

[dondon151]

21- So she can rescue him. So can Miredy with a Body Ring, who is made that much better simply by using it. Thany can do just as well, if not better, than Juno at this job.

Go ahead and give Miledy the Body Ring. Now she can't rescue Allen, Lance, OJ, or Echidna.

21x- Warping is much safer, since Juno isn't open to the Sniper nearby. Despite how well she can dodge, she is always in danger of getting OHKO'd, since her stats in general suck. And besides, if we're only using Juno for that, you may as well just Warp somebody like Dieck or Rutger in there to destroy everything anyway. You've got enough uses of Warp for such a strategy, and you also have Cavaliers to rush in.

I never said anything about dodging. I said that Juno has guaranteed safe spots where she can't get hit, period.

22- Mounts are valuable here- bad ones are not. It's more a matter of usability in this one than utility, so anyone like Cavaliers or Miredy are easily usable, while Juno is taking risks just to stay alive. Her stats just don't help her at all- her Base SPD, a Falco Knight's best stat, is lower than Percival's base SPD- on Normal Mode. Juggle that with terrible DEF and STR bases and you've got a china doll to defend if you THINK of fielding her.

Did you read that part of my post where I said that you don't need stats to exercise flying utility? I don't think you did. Did you watch any of my videos that showed exactly how to exercise flying utility without involving stats? I don't think you did that either.

I'm basically saying Juno has the worst base stats ever, except maybe Arran, and even rescue utility can't save that when she has massive competition for such utility. Not to mention they are ALL better than her- no exceptions. Even freaking Zealot is better.

Hmm, yeah, I don't know, but this sounds exactly like Karel, except there is 1 Durandal when there are far more units that that who would like being rescue chained.

I guess you still must be tired, because you still haven't slept off the shitty arguments. Or at least, you've managed to contradict yourself in every single one of your arguments against Juno because Karel is outclassed for his entire existence to a greater degree.

Edited October 22, 2009 by dondon151

[Sasori]

While its true Karel is outclassed from whenever he exist his stats aren't bad and he still has the +30 critical so he can be a decent filler.

[Candlejack]

21- So she can rescue him. So can Miredy with a Body Ring, who is made that much better simply by using it. Thany can do just as well, if not better, than Juno at this job.

Go ahead and give Miledy the Body Ring. Now she can't rescue Allen, Lance, OJ, or Echidna.

21x- Warping is much safer, since Juno isn't open to the Sniper nearby. Despite how well she can dodge, she is always in danger of getting OHKO'd, since her stats in general suck. And besides, if we're only using Juno for that, you may as well just Warp somebody like Dieck or Rutger in there to destroy everything anyway. You've got enough uses of Warp for such a strategy, and you also have Cavaliers to rush in.

I never said anything about dodging. I said that Juno has guaranteed safe spots where she can't get hit, period.

22- Mounts are valuable here- bad ones are not. It's more a matter of usability in this one than utility, so anyone like Cavaliers or Miredy are easily usable, while Juno is taking risks just to stay alive. Her stats just don't help her at all- her Base SPD, a Falco Knight's best stat, is lower than Percival's base SPD- on Normal Mode. Juggle that with terrible DEF and STR bases and you've got a china doll to defend if you THINK of fielding her.

Did you read that part of my post where I said that you don't need stats to exercise flying utility? I don't think you did. Did you watch any of my videos that showed exactly how to exercise flying utility without involving stats? I don't think you did that either.

I'm basically saying Juno has the worst base stats ever, except maybe Arran, and even rescue utility can't save that when she has massive competition for such utility. Not to mention they are ALL better than her- no exceptions. Even freaking Zealot is better.

Hmm, yeah, I don't know, but this sounds exactly like Karel, except there is 1 Durandal when there are far more units that that who would like being rescue chained.

I guess you still must be tired, because you still haven't slept off the shitty arguments. Or at least, you've managed to contradict yourself in every single one of your arguments against Juno because Karel is outclassed for his entire existence to a greater degree.

1. Cool, so you can't rescue two Cavalier units who have just as much rescue utility, an inferior mercenary to Dieck, who she CAN rescue, and Echidna. So, one person out of a possible... 57? Sure, you could give it to Juno, but why would really waste it on that?

2. Juno has safe spots. So she has one role in pretty much every map you could field her in and then tuck her away until the Chapter ends. What use. Definitely beats warping some rape unit in there to destroy everything in sight.

3. Are you REALLY using a 0% growths run for proof? In that case, Juno is considered much better then. >_> I'm not saying Karel is good, I'm saying that Karel's outclassing problem is much much MUCH less severe than Juno's.

4. Yes, it is a lot like Karel. Except he beats her in, I don't know, every single stat. And gets an auto-S in Swords. Sure, you don't have to use him, but you don't have to use Karel either. At least Karel has reasonable bases in every stat. Same base STR as HM Percival, highest base SPD in the game, and suitable DEF for a Swordmaster. Juno has nothing. Absolutely nothing.

====================

In short: Swordmaster with 30% base critical, high AVO rate, and very very high base SPD who can defend himself > flying unit with horribad bases that dies in one round.

[dondon151]

2. Juno has safe spots. So she has one role in pretty much every map you could field her in and then tuck her away until the Chapter ends. What use. Definitely beats warping some rape unit in there to destroy everything in sight.

Your limits of Warp are limited. A few uses for 20x, 21, 21x, and 22, except there are only 5 uses and some pretty stiff Hammerne competition.

3. Are you REALLY using a 0% growths run for proof? In that case, Juno is considered much better then. >_> I'm not saying Karel is good, I'm saying that Karel's outclassing problem is much much MUCH less severe than Juno's.

Of course I can use it for "proof," because frankly the PKs you get are rather bad, but they're still some of the most valuable units you have in a 0% growths run. If they can be used there, then they can be used anywhere.

4. Yes, it is a lot like Karel. Except he beats her in, I don't know, every single stat. And gets an auto-S in Swords. Sure, you don't have to use him, but you don't have to use Karel either. At least Karel has reasonable bases in every stat. Same base STR as HM Percival, highest base SPD in the game, and suitable DEF for a Swordmaster. Juno has nothing. Absolutely nothing.

OK, I don't feel like repeating the same shit over and over again, but Juno's utility is more in demand than Karel's and also in less supply, so a simple supply and demand curve shows that Juno's value is greater than Karel's. Let me show you:

The demand for Durandal users should actually be a vertical line at qty = 1, except if I drew that it wouldn't have ended up intersecting the supply curve, so I made the demand curve downward sloping instead of vertical.

[Candlejack]

2. Juno has safe spots. So she has one role in pretty much every map you could field her in and then tuck her away until the Chapter ends. What use. Definitely beats warping some rape unit in there to destroy everything in sight.

Your limits of Warp are limited. A few uses for 20x, 21, 21x, and 22, except there are only 5 uses and some pretty stiff Hammerne competition.

3. Are you REALLY using a 0% growths run for proof? In that case, Juno is considered much better then. >_> I'm not saying Karel is good, I'm saying that Karel's outclassing problem is much much MUCH less severe than Juno's.

Of course I can use it for "proof," because frankly the PKs you get are rather bad, but they're still some of the most valuable units you have in a 0% growths run. If they can be used there, then they can be used anywhere.

4. Yes, it is a lot like Karel. Except he beats her in, I don't know, every single stat. And gets an auto-S in Swords. Sure, you don't have to use him, but you don't have to use Karel either. At least Karel has reasonable bases in every stat. Same base STR as HM Percival, highest base SPD in the game, and suitable DEF for a Swordmaster. Juno has nothing. Absolutely nothing.

OK, I don't feel like repeating the same shit over and over again, but Juno's utility is more in demand than Karel's and also in less supply, so a simple supply and demand curve shows that Juno's value is greater than Karel's. Let me show you:

The demand for Durandal users should actually be a vertical line at qty = 1, except if I drew that it wouldn't have ended up intersecting the supply curve, so I made the demand curve downward sloping instead of vertical.

1. Uses of Warp will be limited ANYWAY. Why use it so liberally when you already have Miredy, who can already better serve the team on an overall value rather than just utility?

2. I don't quite see how an FE hack can apply to FE in-game. If this was the case, Yodel would skyrocket simply for staff utility and everyone else would only get stats through promotion.

3. Juno's supply is minimal. Compared to other fliers, who I think you know are PLENTY better than her, that supplement will be rendered null. You could say the same about Karel but he has much different uses than what Juno can offer. So comparing the two on utility is a bit off- Juno is a crappy rescuer and Karel is a crappy avo wall. Who happens to have the highest SPD base in the game, even including unlockables.

4. Huh. If you're putting Juno that high up you either overestimate how useful she can be or you just have favoritism. Flying utility is only good when the actual units you FIELD are good. Same with Durandal users. Again, not to say Karel is good.

[dondon151]

1. Uses of Warp will be limited ANYWAY. Why use it so liberally when you already have Miredy, who can already better serve the team on an overall value rather than just utility?

Warp is limited so that you'll have to resort to using flying utility on some chapters.

2. I don't quite see how an FE hack can apply to FE in-game. If this was the case, Yodel would skyrocket simply for staff utility and everyone else would only get stats through promotion.

You don't see because quite frankly you're either blind or the two hemispheres of your brain aren't connected right. The point of those videos was to show that you don't need to have stats to exercise flying utility.

3. Juno's supply is minimal. Compared to other fliers, who I think you know are PLENTY better than her, that supplement will be rendered null. You could say the same about Karel but he has much different uses than what Juno can offer. So comparing the two on utility is a bit off- Juno is a crappy rescuer and Karel is a crappy avo wall. Who happens to have the highest SPD base in the game, even including unlockables.

Nice job not understanding what the supply curve means. The supply curve is your number of fliers, which is limited to 5, and you need 2 to rescue-drop 1 infantry unit in the most efficient way possible. The supply curve of Durandal users, however, is far more to the right. Rutger, Lance, Allen, Dieck, Percival, Echidna, Fir, OJ, Noah, etc. I count 9 right there, and they are all more likely to be used than Zeiss, who is your 4th flier. And that's not even considering the demand curve, where demand for Durandal users is effectively 1 whereas demand for fliers is pretty much roughly equal to the amount of infantry units you have deployed (i.e. far greater than 1).

4. Huh. If you're putting Juno that high up you either overestimate how useful she can be or you just have favoritism. Flying utility is only good when the actual units you FIELD are good. Same with Durandal users. Again, not to say Karel is good.

The point of those videos was to show that you don't need to have stats to exercise flying utility. And good job, you concede that Karel is more outclassed than Juno.

Do you get it now? No? Because I don't want to have to say that again.

Edited October 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Candlejack]

1. Uses of Warp will be limited ANYWAY. Why use it so liberally when you already have Miredy, who can already better serve the team on an overall value rather than just utility?

Warp is limited so that you'll have to resort to using flying utility on some chapters.

2. I don't quite see how an FE hack can apply to FE in-game. If this was the case, Yodel would skyrocket simply for staff utility and everyone else would only get stats through promotion.

You don't see because quite frankly you're either blind or the two hemispheres of your brain aren't connected right. The point of those videos was to show that you don't need to have stats to exercise flying utility.

3. Juno's supply is minimal. Compared to other fliers, who I think you know are PLENTY better than her, that supplement will be rendered null. You could say the same about Karel but he has much different uses than what Juno can offer. So comparing the two on utility is a bit off- Juno is a crappy rescuer and Karel is a crappy avo wall. Who happens to have the highest SPD base in the game, even including unlockables.

Nice job not understanding what the supply curve means. The supply curve is your number of fliers, which is limited to 5, and you need 2 to rescue-drop 1 infantry unit in the most efficient way possible. The supply curve of Durandal users, however, is far more to the right. Rutger, Lance, Allen, Dieck, Percival, Echidna, Fir, OJ, Noah, etc. I count 9 right there, and they are all more likely to be used than Zeiss, who is your 4th flier. And that's not even considering the demand curve, where demand for Durandal users is effectively 1 whereas demand for fliers is pretty much roughly equal to the amount of infantry units you have deployed (i.e. far greater than 1).

4. Huh. If you're putting Juno that high up you either overestimate how useful she can be or you just have favoritism. Flying utility is only good when the actual units you FIELD are good. Same with Durandal users. Again, not to say Karel is good.

The point of those videos was to show that you don't need to have stats to exercise flying utility. And good job, you concede that Karel is more outclassed than Juno.

Do you get it now? No? Because I don't want to have to say that again.

1. Exactly. So you'll want to use Miledy anyway.

2. You don't need stats to have flying utility, but you need stats for RESCUE utility. Just ask Marcus.

3. Okay, the demand for fliers is >to your fieldees in general.

4. Karel is outclassed more than Juno because of stupid one-sided competition. Rutger, Dieck, Percival, etc. Juno has relatively low competition because most of her competition isn't near as useful as Karel's competition. Except Miledy, but that's just one unit.

Really, all I can say right now is if Karel didn't have such fierce competition, I'd say his stats overall lead over Juno's overrated flying utility.

[dondon151]

2. You don't need stats to have flying utility, but you need stats for RESCUE utility. Just ask Marcus.

Nope. The cool thing about being a flier is that it's much easier to avoid combat than it is when you're a horsie. You can fly over untraversable terrain.

3. Okay, the demand for fliers is >to your fieldees in general.

Exactly. Demand for flier utility is high.

4. Karel is outclassed more than Juno because of stupid one-sided competition. Rutger, Dieck, Percival, etc. Juno has relatively low competition because most of her competition isn't near as useful as Karel's competition. Except Miledy, but that's just one unit.

Really, all I can say right now is if Karel didn't have such fierce competition, I'd say his stats overall lead over Juno's overrated flying utility.

So you agree with me that unless we examine a hypothetical that doesn't actually represent the reality of the game, Juno is better than Karel.

[Candlejack]

In utility? Yes.

In battle? No.

In overall use? who cares, they both suck.

[Sasori]

Why would you deploy juno just to rescue a bunch of people isn't it better to just use another fighter instead?

[dondon151]

In overall use? who cares, they both suck.

This topic kind of asks for a distinction between shitty characters.

[Candlejack]

In overall use? who cares, they both suck.

This topic kind of asks for a distinction between shitty characters.

Meh. Despite your good argument, it seems the majority believe its Juno.

[dondon151]

The majority is not always right.

[Jaybee]

Why would you deploy juno just to rescue a bunch of people isn't it better to just use another fighter instead?

With Juno you can move people/Roy to the throne area faster, so you can end the chapter quicker instead of killing all the enemies. For example, instead of beating everyone, I can airlift Dieck, Rutger, Lance and Alan to the throne, have them kill everything before bringing Roy to the throne. Ta-da, the chapter just ended 10 turns faster. And that "extra fighter" might be superfluous.