FE9 Tier list v3

[Narga_Rocks]

The thing is that Jill's durability against the ravens sucks even WITH the Laguzguard and her offense isn't much better: 3RKO at 50~ hit rates? [Those were figures on EASY iirc] She really has nothing to gain by flying outside the boat. Same story with Marcia.

If an enemy has 19 mt, and a unit has 10 def, does the laguzguard mean 5 damage or 4?

But, looking at the HM stats in the topic on this site, it seems like they all 4RKO. Well, as long as Marcia gets a little speed to prevent doubling. Needs 13 to prevent the 16 AS from doubling. Base Marcia takes 5 damage per hit while using the guard, so the ones that don't double will 4RKO. Well, there's also some 16 and 17 atk ones that will 5RKO. Also, in the levels to get some speed she could get hp or def. 55% hp growth and 25% def growth. Level 9 Marcia has 22 hp and 9 def, so 17 mt ravens 6RKO her. 18 mt ravens 5RKO her if they do 5 damage, or 6RKO her if they do 4.

Marcia even has a 40.8% chance at 13 speed after just 3 levels, and a 16.6375 chance at 14 speed, so in 3 levels she has a 57.4375% chance of getting at least 13 speed.

In 4 levels, she has a 4.100625% chance of having 11 speed, 20.0475% chance of having 12 speed, so 75.851875% chance of having at least 13 speed.

In 2 levels, she has a 30.25% chance of getting 13 speed. She has a higher chance of getting 13 speed in 2 levels than she does of not getting at least 2 speed in 4 levels.

Marcia has a very good chance at reaching 4RKO, and if she procs hp even once in those levels she'll be 5RKOd. And that's ignoring the 16 and 17 mt ravens.

As for Jill, she has 24 hp, 11 def, 60% hp, 35% def.

18 mt ravens do 3x2 damage, and 4RKO. Or they do 4x2 damage, and 3RKO. If she procs anything useful after the first level (74% of getting at least one of hp or def) she gets this chapter, they drop to 4RKO if we round 3.5 up, or 5RKO if we round down.

That said, it should probably go to Marcia if she has >= 13 speed, and Jill if Marcia has < 13 speed. Also it's dependent on what the game does with 3.5 and 4.5.

[NinjaMonkey]

Also, I overestimated Ilyana's def a bit there, but Mist only has a 1 Def lead over Mist at the same level as each other and Ilyana still has the Zihark support anyway.

Er, how can Mist have a 1 Def lead over herself, exactly?

[Reikken]

If you really want to kill off those ravens, I should think a forged lance would come into play. 2 hits with iron and one with forged iron is enough to take out 10-def ones for a base lv Jill.

The thing is that Jill's durability against the ravens sucks even WITH the Laguzguard

While certainly unimpressive, a 4RK isn't what I would label as "sucks".

Anyway, too much discussion on one chapter---the one least representative, even: When else is Jill getting doubled or having real issues hitting?---misses the point.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Volke needs to move way down, maybe even to Low. Sothe should be dragged down with him.

First of all, his combat is really bad due to being restricted to knives, having an enemy phase that is limited by Shade, and therefore not being able to level up with the rest of your group.

Now to the major reason he should move down; the lack of help thievery gives you.

There are 45 chests in this game and 10 chest keys. 20 chests can be picked without the help of Volke and the rest are unnecessary.

List of things you get out of chests (chapter you get them in ()):

Miracle (7)

Barrier (7)

Armorslayer (7)

Javelin (10)

Short Axe (10)

Steel Lance (10)

Counter (10)

Statue Frag (10)

Killer Bow (13)

Laguz Axe (13)

Longsword (13)

Elfire (13)

Occult (13)

Energy Drop (13)

Speedwings (13)

Full Guard (16)

Dracoshield (16)

Bolting (16)

Physic (16)

Ashera Icon (16)

Silver Lance (16)

Recover (18)

Silence (18)

Wrath (18)

Thoron (21)

Corrsion (21)

Talisman (21)

Energy Drop (21)

Stiletto (21)

Parity (21)

Brave Sword (21)

Master Seal (21)

Spirit Dust (22)

Nosferatu (22)

Sleep (22)

Bolganone (22)

Tomahawk (22)

Silver Bow (22)

Bolganone (27)

Resolve (27)

Laguz Axe (27)

Fortify (27)

Spear (27)

Silver Lance (27)

Physic (27)

Out of these, the twenty chest key uses provide you with:

Short Axe (10)

Killer Bow (13)

Laguz Axe (13)

Occult (13)

Energy Drop (13)

Speedwings (13)

Full Guard (16)

Dracoshield (16)

Physic (16)

Silver Lance (16)

Wrath (18)

Energy Drop (21)

Brave Sword (21)

Spirit Dust (22)

Nosferatu (22)

Tomahawk (22)

Resolve (27)

Fortify (27)

Spear (27)

Physic (27)

The list may vary depending on who you use (for example I left of the fire tomes you can get but they may be more important to you than an Occult if you use Tormod/Calill)

With correct conservation of keys, you should be able to get all of this. Also, if you want something else, you can wait for an enemy thief or raven to pick something and then kill them to take what they got from a chest.

The point is that Volke is not a combat unit and his thief utility can be replaced by keys. While you can net some extra cash by selling the extra stuff Volke gets you, this game gives you enough cash already. Bringing him to pick chests also takes up another space for another unit you might want to train and so farther lessens his utility. While it hurts to see chests stay forever closed, it ultiimately cannot justify an upper mid tier placement.

[_____]

It's H5 Rickard versus Midia all over again...

Also, Volke also has the ability to steal a bunch of things, something you just so happened to forget to mention in your entire post.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Ninji

[Colonel M]

No this is different. The difference is Volke has durability to speak of and can steal other items (PHYSICS!!!)

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

It's H5 Rickard versus Midia all over again...

Also, Volke also has the ability to steal a bunch of things, something you just so happened to forget to mention in your entire post.

The ability to steal doesn't help Volke very much since it is rare that you would want to steal something. Taking up a deployment slot so you can grab some physics isn't upper mid material.

[Florete]

The ability to steal doesn't help Volke very much since it is rare that you would want to steal something. Taking up a deployment slot so you can grab some physics isn't upper mid material.

It's damn well worth deploying him for.

Also, Volke > Chest Keys. Having Volke open a Chest frees up my other units to go do something else, like fight or heal, and keys also take up precious inventory space that Volke doesn't have to deal with, aka he has an easy time trading around the items he's just grabbed. And then you showed 25 chests that need a Thief to open.

Volke + Low tier = lol.

EDIT: And in an optimal playthrough, we only get 6 Chest Keys. 3 of your 10 were in Ch. 10, where it's better to go stealth, aka we on't be getting those Keys, and another is only on Maniac mode. Add 8 items to Volke's/Sothe's list.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The ability to steal doesn't help Volke very much since it is rare that you would want to steal something. Taking up a deployment slot so you can grab some physics isn't upper mid material.

It's damn well worth deploying him for.

Also, Volke > Chest Keys. Having Volke open a Chest frees up my other units to go do something else, like fight or heal, and keys also take up precious inventory space that Volke doesn't have to deal with, aka he has an easy time trading around the items he's just grabbed. And then you showed 25 chests that need a Thief to open.

Volke + Low tier = lol.

EDIT: And in an optimal playthrough, we only get 6 Chest Keys. 3 of your 10 were in Ch. 10, where it's better to go stealth, aka we on't be getting those Keys, and another is only on Maniac mode. Add 8 items to Volke's/Sothe's list.

Maybe low tier is a bit too low, but the gap between him and Sothe should be much smaller. Volke is staying away from the fighting regardless of his durability and so does not gain much on Sothe.

The 25 items that you can't get with chest keys are borderline worth selling and so you don't miss out on much by not opening them with a thief. It's hard to justify upper mid with what you can't get with chest keys and stuff you can steal.

Also, how is Volke freeing up your units to do something else if he takes up a deployment spot to begin with?

And how is stealth Ch 10 more efficient than rushing through? I probably missed some argument a while back so can someone fill me in?

[_____]

No this is different. The difference is Volke has durability to speak of and can steal other items (PHYSICS!!!)

And Rickard has less Chest Keys to compete with and was only being compared to a bottom tier unit with pretty damn bad combat utility.

[Rodykitty]

H5 Rickard

More like Julian. Volke can actually claim to have combat ability.

[Colonel M]

Their counterparts:

Volke = Julian

Sothe = Rickard

Yeah, I said it.

[Zkirsche]

Maybe low tier is a bit too low, but the gap between him and Sothe should be much smaller. Volke is staying away from the fighting regardless of his durability and so does not gain much on Sothe.

I agree that the gap shoudl close, but Sothe should move up, not Volke down.

The 25 items that you can't get with chest keys are borderline worth selling and so you don't miss out on much by not opening them with a thief. It's hard to justify upper mid with what you can't get with chest keys and stuff you can steal.

You miss out on the gold you get from selling them + more:

Javelin (10)

Javelins aren't buyable buy this point and 1-2 range is always nice.

Longsword (13)

Elfire (13)

Idk why you skipped over these. Elfire increases the offensive capabilities of units like Ilyana and Soren whilst the longsword is great against pallys, who start appearing en mass in chapter 17.

Bolting (16]

See above, Calill/Soren/Ilyana can make great use of this if they get left behind - possible in a team of pallys/fliers/laguz, whcih just so happen to make a majority of the first few tiers.

Thoron (21)

Stiletto (21)

Master Seal (21)

Bolganone (22)

Master seal can be used on Tormod to help him grow faster, thoron/bolganone and the stiletto improve on the offensive capabilities of mages and thieves respectively.

Bolganone (27)

Fortify (27)

1) see above about bolganone

2) Heals HP of nearly every ally, this is > Physic, really, and those are pretty useful themselves.

Oh yeah, and there's a tonne of stuff you can get through stealing them from enemies such as a laguz slayer in chappter 11 from Makoya, an elixer in chapter 12 from Seeker, a physic in chapter 17, possible meteor in chapter 17, possible bolting and blizzard in chapter 18, a short spear in chapter 19 and 20, a physic in 20, bolganone in 20, a blizzard in 20, sleep in 21, physic in 21, venin axe in chapter 22, killer axe in chapter 22, 2 physics in chapter 23, a short axe or silver blade in chapter 24, a short spear in 24, physic in 25, physic in 26, short axe in 26, 3 short spears in 26, spear in 26, 2 physics in 27, 2 boltings in 27, a meteor in 27, brave lance/spear in 27, sleep in 28, meteor in 28, bolting in 28, a short spear/axe, bolting, rexaura and fortify in endgame. All these items can be used to improve characters.

Also, how is Volke freeing up your units to do something else if he takes up a deployment spot to begin with?

Because we don't play ~13 combat units as that's sharing our exp too much.

And how is stealth Ch 10 more efficient than rushing through? I probably missed some argument a while back so can someone fill me in?

700 bexp.

[Ack-Tar]

First of all, his combat is really bad due to being restricted to knives, having an enemy phase that is limited by Shade, and therefore not being able to level up with the rest of your group.

I wouldn't call Volke's combat "bad", especially after the Stilettos start showing up in Ch.21.

His Strength has a fair chance to cap early on (thanks to its 55% growth and his 12 base Strength), his Skill is good, and his Speed is excellent. 15/1 Volke, not an unreasonable level before promotion, pulls about 17 AS, enough to double everything in Ch.20 but the horseback units, Shiharam, and the lone myrmidon (I chose Ch.20 because it's the first one after he promotes to an Assassin). He also averages 16-17 Strength, and enemies usually run around 11 Defense at that point in the game.

Indeed, Knives and Daggers are poor, but the Stiletto is effectively a personal Armorslayer (because, frankly, who else would use the knives well enough to make giving them to that character worthwhile?) that also works well in combat otherwise. And you get two free (Ch.21 chest, and when Bastian joins in Ch.25).

Lethality is a hit-and-miss skill, but it effectively multiplies his critical rate by 1.5x (since activation is [CRT]/2 %). Throw in his good Skill and the Stiletto (+10 CRT), and he's got a good chance to tear something to pieces between a critical hit and the possible OHKO, always a plus for a combat unit. Plus, who else would get one of the four Occult scrolls, besides maybe Ike and one of the Paladins?

My point is that Volke isn't "bad" at combat. He's not the best at it, but having one of the highest Speed stats of any unit and a solid offensive stat spread otherwise makes him a bit better than just thief utility.

[Reikken]

I agree that Volke is too high (his main contribution is getting staves---take those out and you can get most everything without him---...yet the highest unit who can even use those staves in the first place is below him? wtf), but he should only drop to about mid. Either that or Mist is too low. or a combination of both.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Javelins aren't buyable buy this point and 1-2 range is always nice.

Buyable in Ch 9.

Longsword (13)

Elfire (13)

Idk why you skipped over these. Elfire increases the offensive capabilities of units like Ilyana and Soren whilst the longsword is great against pallys, who start appearing en mass in chapter 17.

Kill the ravens after they've taken them to expand what you can get without a thief.

Bolting (16]

See above, Calill/Soren/Ilyana can make great use of this if they get left behind - possible in a team of pallys/fliers/laguz, whcih just so happen to make a majority of the first few tiers.

good for 5 uses; also, you can kill the thief that tries to take it (unless IIRI and the thief takes the physic first, in which case you can kill him then and use your key on the Bolting)

Thoron (21)

Stiletto (21)

Master Seal (21)

Bolganone (22)

Master seal can be used on Tormod to help him grow faster, thoron/bolganone and the stiletto improve on the offensive capabilities of mages and thieves respectively.

These are dependent on who you use. You may pick some of these up instead of other things like the Occult scroll or Nosferatu. You may also have extra keys at this point if you took treasures from enemy thieves.

Also, Volke's combat is pretty bad (<Mia for most of the game) so getting him to a point where he can utilize a stiletto is inefficient.

Bolganone (27)

Fortify (27)

1) see above about bolganone

2) Heals HP of nearly every ally, this is > Physic, really, and those are pretty useful themselves.

See above point about bolganone. Fortify was on my list.

Oh yeah, and there's a tonne of stuff you can get through stealing them from enemies such as a laguz slayer in chappter 11 from Makoya, an elixer in chapter 12 from Seeker, a physic in chapter 17, possible meteor in chapter 17, possible bolting and blizzard in chapter 18, a short spear in chapter 19 and 20, a physic in 20, bolganone in 20, a blizzard in 20, sleep in 21, physic in 21, venin axe in chapter 22, killer axe in chapter 22, 2 physics in chapter 23, a short axe or silver blade in chapter 24, a short spear in 24, physic in 25, physic in 26, short axe in 26, 3 short spears in 26, spear in 26, 2 physics in 27, 2 boltings in 27, a meteor in 27, brave lance/spear in 27, sleep in 28, meteor in 28, bolting in 28, a short spear/axe, bolting, rexaura and fortify in endgame. All these items can be used to improve characters.

Nice list and all, but to steal a lot of this, he needs to be at a level where he has the durability to survive long range bombs/generic enemies, and since he is harder to train than Mia, it isn't very much worth it to do so. Also, stealing these items isn't very easy since the enemy does not cooperate very well with this. Longe range magic gets worn out pretty quickly just from enemy use and a little RNG screwage can leave priests equipped with physics. The weapons are good but again, Volke has to be durable enough to survive enemy attacks.

[Progenitus]

I agree, especially with Reikken's logic. He's mostly useful for stealing physics, yet he's above the units who can use them. That doesn't make any sense.

Still, I'd say he should stick in upper mid. Mid tier implies taht the unit is roughly neutral utility, and I say Volke > that. Sothe, on the other hand, should probably move up. He's Volke with crappier fighting but actual supports (even if they're fairly minor), and Volke's fighting isn't much better. Maybe bottom of upper mid for Volke, and bottom of mid for Sothe.

Also one thing that I want to note...

Nice list and all, but to steal a lot of this, he needs to be at a level where he has the durability to survive long range bombs/generic enemies, and since he is harder to train than Mia, it isn't very much worth it to do so. Also, stealing these items isn't very easy since the enemy does not cooperate very well with this. Longe range magic gets worn out pretty quickly just from enemy use and a little RNG screwage can leave priests equipped with physics. The weapons are good but again, Volke has to be durable enough to survive enemy attacks.

This isn't RD where units equipped staves. You can steal staves even if it's the only item in their inventory, including physics.

I do agree that physics are more or less the only things Volke will be stealing on a consistent basis.

Edited August 30, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Colonel M]

Not this Mist shit again. And WTF @ the logic of Volke being over Physic users suddenly makes him... unqualified?

I disagree on moving Sothe up. 20 HP | 4 Def | 30 Avoid is fucking terrible for durability. It's exactly like a mini-Rickard.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

Buyable in Ch 9.

Which is before you have tonnes of money to buy enougth to last you awhile.

Kill the ravens after they've taken them to expand what you can get without a thief.

Or i could open the chests a few turns earlier and kill the ravens earlier too. This map ends when it's routed, so killing earlier > killing later. And what happens if the raven gets to anotehr chest before it's killed? Now we just lost that item.

good for 5 uses; also, you can kill the thief that tries to take it (unless IIRI and the thief takes the physic first, in which case you can kill him then and use your key on the Bolting)

The thief might attack an ally, and if no allies are in range then he can easily open the otehr chest and lose you the bolting.

Those 5 turns may be all you need for a chapter.

These are dependent on who you use. You may pick some of these up instead of other things like the Occult scroll or Nosferatu. You may also have extra keys at this point if you took treasures from enemy thieves.

Also, Volke's combat is pretty bad (<Mia for most of the game) so getting him to a point where he can utilize a stiletto is inefficient.

Considering you have less keys that those you actually displayed, no you don't.

You're exaggerating by quite a bit here. 20/2 Volke with a stilleto can ORKO myrmidons/sm's and sages/mages, he ORKO's the soldiers, 2RKO's the halbs, ORKO's archers/snipers, 2RKO's warriors/fighters and 2-3RKO's knights/generals. This isn't as fail as one might expect, really, especially when you factor in his 15-16% chance to crit things. Okay, this isn't spectacular, or good, but it certainly isn't "whoamg he can't do anything offensively."

See above point about bolganone. Fortify was on my list.

If we're playing ANY magic users at all, then Bolganone should be stolen.

Nice list and all, but to steal a lot of this, he needs to be at a level where he has the durability to survive long range bombs/generic enemies, and since he is harder to train than Mia, it isn't very much worth it to do so. Also, stealing these items isn't very easy since the enemy does not cooperate very well with this. Longe range magic gets worn out pretty quickly just from enemy use and a little RNG screwage can leave priests equipped with physics. The weapons are good but again, Volke has to be durable enough to survive enemy attacks.

He has shade so as long as there are other allies around (If there isn't, why the hell not? You're playing like a douchebag), there's a chance he won't even get attacked. Priests can't equip staves. What you said about the long-range weapons is true, which is why I stated "possibly" in front of things, but if they aren't broken, Volke can help the mages on your team with thier mobility.

[Reikken]

I have no idea who this Rickard is, but Sothe doesn't need durability. He only needs to open chests and steal physics. Chests don't attack, and bishops have such crappy offense that you can have the rest of your army go around them, leaving them alive, and have Sothe come in and steal safely behind your other units, and they won't kill him even if you leave them alive for a turn after stealing.

And WTF @ the logic of Volke being over Physic users suddenly makes him... unqualified?

Hm? I can't say that I know what you're trying to say, other than that you disagree.

EDIT: getting mages to unequip their long rage tomes is so much trouble that it's not worth it even if you have a nigh invincible thief

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

I have no idea who this Rickard is, but Sothe doesn't need durability. He only needs to open chests and steal physics. Chests don't attack, and bishops have such crappy offense that you can have the rest of your army go around them, leaving them alive, and have Sothe come in and steal safely behind your other units, and they won't kill him even if you leave them alive for a turn after stealing.

Play FE1, FE3, or FEDS. Rickard is basically a theif with little durability.

Yeah, durability matters too. Yeah, the chests don't attack, but him stealing something almost requires absolute protection. It's not like the chests aren't near an enemy or of the sort. Take his joining chapter (C13?) for instance. We have the Ravens and all those nasty units. He's 2RKOed all the time.

And WTF @ the logic of Volke being over Physic users suddenly makes him... unqualified?

Hm?

*Rolls eyes*

Part of your argument was you didn't understand why Volke was over Mist in the first place:

I agree that Volke is too high (his main contribution is getting staves---take those out and you can get most everything without him---...yet the highest unit who can even use those staves in the first place is below him? wtf),

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

his main contribution is getting staves---take those out and you can get most everything without him---...yet the highest unit who can even use those staves in the first place is below him? wtf

He also steals siege tomes and high-level magic tomes.

What? Using them >/ getting them. Without Volke, Mist wouldn't be able to use the physic staves as much, limiting her usefulness and making her < Volke. With Volke, her utility increases, but since Volke is being used to steal the physics, his utility increases and he remain > Mist.

Basically, what Mist/Soren/Rhys do with the physic staves that Volke steals for them gives credit to Mist/Soren/Rhys' utility, but also Volke's utility, and that credit is proportionate to the credit given to Mist/Soren/Rhys.

He's 2RKOed all the time.

Then give him shade when it appears.

Edited August 30, 2009 by kirsche

[Colonel M]

Then give him shade when it appears.

Shade won't help you if you're stealing / going at chests by yourself. It also doesn't work reliably.

[Zkirsche]

Shade won't help you if you're stealing / going at chests by yourself. It also doesn't work reliably.

1) If there are enemies by that chest, wouldn't you send off people to kill those enemies with Sothe? Again, it's mostly player stupidity if you just let these guys get attacked 3 or 4 times.

2) Shade should be enougth to keep them alive, at least.

[Reikken]

You're exaggerating by quite a bit here. 20/2 Volke with a stilleto...

20/2 Volke? That's quite a lot of exp there, sir. About as much as using Mia as a primary team member from her joining chapter all the way to the end of ch 16.

Yeah, durability matters too. Yeah, the chests don't attack, but him stealing something almost requires absolute protection. It's not like the chests aren't near an enemy or of the sort. Take his joining chapter (C13?) for instance. We have the Ravens and all those nasty units. He's 2RKOed all the time.

The first couple of chests he gets have no enemies near them. After that, the ravens that actually attack are gone, so there are no threats to him. If by chance he does get attacked, he doesn't get one-rounded, so he's still fine.

Also you do still have chest keys, so especially for the last few chapters, if a chest is somehow too dangerous for Sothe to get to (this genearlly never happens, just wait a turn or two until your army has begun to advance past that part, and it'll be safe), use one of the keys you've accumulated. Yes, Sothe is worse, but not by much at all.

What? Using them >/ getting them. Without Volke, Mist wouldn't be able to use the physic staves as much, limiting her usefulness and making her < Volke. With Volke, her utility increases, but since Volke is being used to steal the physics, his utility increases and he remain > Mist.

Mist without high end staves that you need a thief for >>>> Volke without the utility of getting you said staves. Volke has little else to contribute. Mist, however, still has a lot to offer. Like the rest of the high level staves, normal staves, w1n supports, and being better than him at combat.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Reikken