Let's solve the Awakening EXP formula!

[Tables]

I say it's high time we work it out. We know roughly how it seems to work (it seems very similar to FE11), I'm sure with a reasonable amount of data points we could get a formula very close or even exactly right for calculating EXP.

Edit: Looks like we're going to record data. If possible try and list all of the following:

Character

Your Class

Displayed level

Internal level - or failing that, the classes you've been through and levels you reclassed at

Enemy class

Enemy displayed level

EXP received

If you were fighting solo/paired up

Any active EXP skills (Veteran, Paragon)

If paired up:

Who got the kill, support or front person (if you killed)

EXP the support received

Details of the support as above (Class, Displayed level, Internal level)

Also if possible include:

Difficulty (including Classic/Casual)

Chapter/map name (e.g. Chapter 6, Skirmish @ Side Story 7, EXPonential Growth etc.)

Anything else you think might just be relevant.

This seems like a lot of data, but that's because right now we don't know many things for certain, so lets make as few assumptions as possible and record everything we can. It's unlikely things like chapter will matter, but who knows?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tables

[euklyd]

This seems like a fun project. Are we bothering with sign ups, or should we just post data points?

Also, it would probably be useful to have a list of exactly what information to include, just so nobody gives incomplete data.

[Vashiane]

I'll help too!

[Meteor]

Also, it would probably be useful to have a list of exactly what information to include, just so nobody gives incomplete data.

I imagine this would be sufficient: class, displayed level, internal level, enemy class, enemy displayed level, XP received, any active XP skills, and whether you wounded or killed. Edited September 11, 2013 by Meteor

[Tables]

I imagine this would be sufficient: class, displayed level, internal level, enemy class, enemy displayed level, XP received, and whether it wounded killed.

Yep. I would say as well that it might be worth adding in your class route, if you know it. Just in case cumulative level does weird things we don't know about.

I would say just post data. I'll probably make a google doc and post it here if/when there's a reasonable amount of data (and the formula isn't obvious from said data)

[VincentASM]

Sounds fun; I'd be up for contributing values.

Haven't booted up the game since failing Apotheosis secret route round 2 >___<

[Randa]

I actually looked into this awhile ago. I'll try to see if I can't find the documentation. But off th stop of my head I think I got 10+(enemies level-internal level) and there's some,factor I can't remember. That's for damaging but not killing. Killing was 30+3*(enemies level-internal level) still can't remember the last factor for this. Another interesting note I found was that the pair upped partner had it by screen level. I think. This one isn't precise but I did notice some wierd things happening with exp at certain points. Didn't find out boss info. No thief bonus. Again I did all this a while ago, and I'll try to find the documents but who knows.

[euklyd]

I imagine this would be sufficient: class, displayed level, internal level, enemy class, enemy displayed level, XP received, any active XP skills, and whether you wounded or killed.

Yeah, those are what I was thinking. There's only one other thing that I might add:

Do we know whether Dual Strikes affect EXP? Like, unit A paired with unit B attacks an enemy, and unit B kills the enemy on a Dual Strike, might that affect the EXP for unit A?

[Randa]

Yeah, those are what I was thinking. There's only one other thing that I might add:

Do we know whether Dual Strikes affect EXP? Like, unit A paired with unit B attacks an enemy, and unit B kills the enemy on a Dual Strike, might that affect the EXP for unit A?

The forward unit will always get the kill experience if I remember correctly. The support unit will only get combat exp. Never kill exp.

[Scarlet]

Do we know whether Dual Strikes affect EXP? Like, unit A paired with unit B attacks an enemy, and unit B kills the enemy on a Dual Strike, might that affect the EXP for unit A?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

EDIT:

The forward unit will always get the kill experience if I remember correctly. The support unit will only get combat exp. Never kill exp.

No, that's not quite right. The support unit will still receive more Exp if it deals the killing blow (usually about 10 on equal levels), whereas it only receives about half that amount if it just hit at all (usually about 5 on equal levels).

Edited September 11, 2013 by Scarlet

[Meteor]

Yeah, those are what I was thinking. There's only one other thing that I might add:

Do we know whether Dual Strikes affect EXP? Like, unit A paired with unit B attacks an enemy, and unit B kills the enemy on a Dual Strike, might that affect the EXP for unit A?

Although I don't have data, I'm absolutely confident that the lead unit always receives full XP. Veteran also only applies in the lead position.

[euklyd]

It would suck to realize that you're wrong halfway through.

I am not a fan of "pretty sure" and "IIRC" when it comes to data collection.

It would be easy to test, regardless.

EDIT: ninja'd

"Absolutely Confident" is good enough for me.

Although I don't have data, I'm absolutely confident that the lead unit always receives full XP. Veteran also only applies in the lead position.

I think Paragon only works in the front as well, since my pair-up units are stuck gaining 1 EXP almost all the time.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Euklyd

[Randa]

I am 99.7% sure about the base equation. The problem I'm having with remembering is if pair up was a factor in the equation. And if it was how large was it.

[Tables]

Really? Mine are always gaining 2 EXP at the back with Paragon, I think.

I am 99.7% sure about the base equation. The problem I'm having with remembering is if pair up was a factor in the equation. And if it was how large was it.

I'm pretty confident the formula you gave (30+3*(lvdif)) only works if level is close. It's the interesting things that happen away from that which make the formula complex. Like why does Fred get 13 EXP for killing enemies 20 levels below him in the prologue?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tables

[Tables]

Edit: Double post, my bad

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tables

[Randa]

Really? Mine are always gaining 2 EXP at the back with Paragon, I think.I'm pretty confident the formula you gave (30+3*(lvdif)) only works if level is close. It's the interesting things that happen away from that which make the formula complex. Like why does Fred get 13 EXP for killing enemies 20 levels below him in the prologue?

That's why I want the documentation. It has the extra factor in it. However I'm having some trouble finding it on my laptop right now.

The only thing that I didn't have solved was the lunatic plus degression of boss exp. The reason why I can't find it is that I did this in April.

[Tables]

As best I can tell, it's just: For every attack you make, you get 1 less EXP. It applies on Lunatic as well as Lunatic+.

If you can find your data that'd be great but for now, collecting more is also good.

Edit: I've updated the first post with a list of data to ideally get. It's kind of long, but most of it should be pretty quick to fill in.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tables

[Tables]

Double post but this is hopefully useful data, should give a good starting point and I think it reveals a few oddities.

All of these results were recorded on Normal NEW (CAS) mode, using Miriel who has not been reclassed, against a level 7 enemy (after numerous tests all non-boss enemies of the same level gave the same EXP), on CoY1. Everything in this post is to do with kill EXP for a main unit.

The first very noticable thing here is, enemies are giving 20 EXP more than one would expect. It's pretty well known that killing an enemy at the same level as you = 30 EXP, but as you can see, here it was 50 EXP. From this I hypothesised that there's a 'named enemy bonus' of 20 EXP. Testing further I discovered the same phenomenom occurs in chapter 20 with the Deadlords (erm, almost the same at least...). However it doesn't seem to occur with Streetpass teams. It did also occur with the Summer Scramble maps. This has lead me to believe there's some form of 'map bonus' applicable in certain maps, but this still needs further testing.

Lvl | Ldf | Exp | Notes
1   |   6 |  70 | Ldf = Level difference
2   |   5 |  67 |
3   |   4 |  63 |
4   |   3 |  60 |
5   |   2 |  57 |
6   |   1 |  53 |
7   |   0 |  50 |
8   |  -1 |  50 | It seems to have the same EXP condition Shadow Dragon does,
9   |  -2 |  50 | if you're within 2 levels of the enemy, you get default EXP
10  |  -3 |  47 |
11  |  -4 |  43 |
12  |  -5 |  40 |
13  |  -6 |  37 |
14  |  -7 |  33 |
15  |  -8 |  30 | 
16  |  -9 |  27 | Note that without the named enemy bonus this would give
17  | -10 |  23 | <8 exp, so clearly that limit is factored in later
18  | -11 |  20 |
19  | -12 |  17 |
20  | -13 |  13 | Killed at level 8 enemy at 20/1. Confident this still works.
21  | -14 |  13 | EXP formula changes here. Tested vs. level 12 enemies to ensure
22  | -15 |  13 | this wasn't just a result of promotion changes (it isn't).
23  | -16 |  12 |
24  | -17 |  12 |
25  | -18 |  12 |
26  | -19 |  11 |
27  | -20 |  11 | See note on Boss EXP below
28  | -21 |  11 |
29  | -22 |  10 |
30  | -23 |  10 |
31  | -24 |  10 |
32  | -25 |   9 |
33  | -26 |   9 |
34  | -27 |   9 |
35  | -28 |   8 | Did not test further, 8 EXP is a known limit.

In addition to the above, I also fought the boss a number of times. Before the EXP formula change, I would get 20 EXP more from the boss. After the change, I got 20 EXP more than what I'd have gotten if the formula hadn't changed. However once the boss EXP was low enough to use the low EXP formula, I noticed the boss was just giving the same EXP as any normal unit. This makes me think that the low EXP formula doesn't factor in the boss bonus.

I still want to test a few notable odd classes for the EXP they give (especially, Villager, Grima, Manakete) but assuming all classes work the same way, here's my first attempt at the EXP formula for killing:

Ldf: Level difference = enemy level - your (internal) level

Boss bonus: Seems to be 20 exp

Map bonus: 20 exp on certain maps. Might be higher/lower on some maps.

Skill bonus: 1.5 if Veteran and paired up. 2 if Paragon. 3 if both. 1 otherwise. Need to test this to work out rounding.

If Ldf >= 0: [30 + 10/3*Ldf + boss bonus + map bonus] * skill bonus

If 0 > Ldf >= -2: [30 + boss bonus + map bonus] * skill bonus

If -2 > Ldf: max[30 + 10/3*(Ldf+2) + boss bonus + map bonus, 15 + (Ldf+2)/3 + map bonus, 8] * skill bonus

Note: The second part of the third equation is intentionally missing the boss bonus. The max function means: Evaluate all three equations and take the largest value of the three.

There's still a lot to do on this, but hopefully it's a good start point - and as I mentioned, it's very similar to Shadow Dragon's formula.

[Remnant Sage]

I remember poking at this about a year ago... I have the formulae I derived from my data, which I'll have to see if it still exists somewhere, and from one of the guides.

LD = level difference, Enemy - Ally (internal)

LD >= 0: Hit = (31+LD)/3
         Kill = 20 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD = -1: Hit = (33+LD)/3
         Kill = 23 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD <= -2: Hit = (33+LD)/3
          Kill = 26 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
Total = Hit + Kill
Min: Hit: 1, Kill: 7
Max: 100
+20: Thief, Assassin, Trickster, Overlord, Boss
+80: Revenant
-10: Troubadour, Cleric, Monk

Note: if on Lunatic, Hit EXP decreases by 1EXP/Turn, or something like that, if you've already attacked the same target at least 3 times. If you go at it long enough, you're left with only the Kill EXP.

Something like that. Feel free to test while I either grab data again, or try to find where I recorded it. I do remember doing a bunch of the EXP tests on Lunatic because of the units not dying too quickly for the Hit EXP. All were done in skirmishes.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Remnant Sage

[shadykid]

Sounds fun; I'd be up for contributing values.

Haven't booted up the game since failing Apotheosis secret route round 2 >___<

so the ASM part of your name stands for A Scrub Master?

hey is anyone willing to go through the effort to fill out the table for support points required

[Tables]

I remember poking at this about a year ago... I have the formulae I derived from my data, which I'll have to see if it still exists somewhere, and from one of the guides.

LD = level difference, Enemy - Ally (internal)

LD >= 0: Hit = (31+LD)/3
         Kill = 20 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD = -1: Hit = (33+LD)/3
         Kill = 23 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD <= -2: Hit = (33+LD)/3
          Kill = 26 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
Min: Hit: 1, Kill: 7
Max: 100
+20: Thief, Assassin, Trickster, Overlord, Boss
+80: Revenant
-10: Troubadour, Cleric, Monk

Note: if on Lunatic, Hit EXP decreases by 1EXP/Turn, or something like that, if you've already attacked the same target at least 3 times. If you go at it long enough, you're left with only the Kill EXP.

Something like that. Feel free to test while I either grab data again, or try to find where I recorded it. I do remember doing a bunch of the EXP tests on Lunatic because of the units not dying too quickly for the Hit EXP. All were done in skirmishes.

Thanks. But I'm pretty confident that formula isn't accurate - are you sure it isn't for something like FE12? There's no Monks or Overlords here, after all, the min is 8 exp, and there's various other issues, like Troubadours don't appear to give less EXP, and it doesn't account for the change in EXP when LD gets sufficiently low, or the change in EXP per change in LD is 10/3, not 3 (you can tell this by killing an enemy two levels above you - you get 37 EXP and not 36).

That said, the Revenant/Entombed bonus does indeed appear to be 80 EXP (tested that last night). There's a few other things I'm testing (New data has shown me there's an error in the second part of the max() equation, and DLC does weird things to EXP gain)

so the ASM part of your name stands for A Scrub Master?

hey is anyone willing to go through the effort to fill out the table for support points required

Wasn't Airship Cannon doing that? I think he found that with only a few exceptions (notably Chrom and I also remember Stahl/Sully), romantic/friendship supports were generally 36/36/45(/45), parent-child and sibling are generally 0/36/81.

[Remnant Sage]

Right. I forgot a key part. Total EXP = Hit + Kill. Edited. So the minimum EXP per kill checks out to 8EXP if you haven't exhausted Hit EXP (which only happens on Lunatic/+).

Found the notebook where I put most of my data. It's a complete mess, so I guess I'll be redoing those tests. Some of the names are from the JP version, so Monk = Priest, Overlord = Conqueror.

An easy data point is Frederick killing something Lv.1 at the start.

Fred = 21, Enemy = 1
LD = -20
Hit = (33 + (-20)) / 3
    = 4.33333 -> 4
Kill = max[26 + (-20 * 3), 7]
     = max[-34, 7]
     = 7
Total = 4 + 7
      = 11

[Tables]

Oh, wow, suddenly that looks like it works. Nice. If you can find that data it'd be good, but a quick look seems to suggest it works. I'm gonna go test on Lunatic and see if I can get someone's hit EXP down to zero and get 7 EXP from a kill.

[Tables]

Okay, I've done more testing. Remnant Sage's formula looks mostly correct, although there's a few extra terms he's missing, which I mentioned. Otherwise the testing I've done seems to work.

[spoiler=Revenant Sage's EXP formula]

LD = level difference, Enemy - Ally (internal)

LD >= 0: Hit = (31+LD)/3
         Kill = 20 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD = -1: Hit = (33+LD)/3
         Kill = 23 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
LD <= -2: Hit = (33+LD)/3
          Kill = 26 + LD*3 + Class + Boss
Total = Hit + Kill
Min: Hit: 1, Kill: 7
Max: 100
+20: Thief, Assassin, Trickster, Overlord, Boss
+80: Revenant
-10: Troubadour, Cleric, Monk

Note: if on Lunatic, Hit EXP decreases by 1EXP/Turn, or something like that, if you've already attacked the same target at least 3 times. If you go at it long enough, you're left with only the Kill EXP.

Firstly a few semantic points: I believe his formula assumes you always round down. That's fine, I assumed you round to the nearest whole number. I would also rephrase the LD=-1 section to not mention LD, but whatever.

Having tested, his class difference numbers are indeed correct. I don't know how I missed them, considering one of the enemies I was often killing was a Troubadour. I think it's because I only started using the Troubadour once the kill EXP = 7 anyway.

I tested Veteran: The rounding seems to occur as you go, and the multiplier applies at the end. It would have been nicer if it didn't round as you go - then EXP would go 45-40-35-30-25 as your LD decreases, but ah well, such is lazy programming. I didn't bother testing Paragon. It's unlikely it'd do anything too strange.

Now DLC, that's the main place things start getting weird:

In the character DLC (CoY, LB, SB, R&R) all enemies seem to have a +20 exp bonus. This includes bosses, who give +40 EXP now, and Troubadours, who give +10 EXP. Strangely the thieves I tested in CoY3 don't give an EXP bonus, beyond their normal +20 EXP. Or perhaps, they lose their class bonus here. I don't know.

The Infinite Regalia enemies also seem to give +20 EXP each. Again, this replaces thief/assassin bonuses. Every enemy gives +20 EXP for killing and not more (except the boss).

Harvest Scramble is the most interesting one. The Revenant's give a 0 EXP boost, instead of their usual +80 EXP. If they gave +80, it'd probably be a better grinding map than EXPonential Growth. The boss however does still give +80 EXP.

The other Scramble Packs, Challenge Pack and Future Past, as best I can tell, don't give any bonuses. I do still want to test the Soldier (Risen Chief) in Death's Embrace, who I suspect might give a considerable bonus. Apotheosis might, but I don't have characters quite capable of getting a kill on that who aren't Lunatic mode grinded characters.

I've tested Lunatic hit EXP decay. The first three hits are free, after that you lose 1 EXP per hit. As a term in the formula that'd be - min(H - 3, 0) where H is the number of times you've hit the opponent, including this one. It doesn't matter who lands the hits - it's a cumulative count, not a count for each character.

So, that's my progress so far. Still to test is staff+dance EXP (which I believe is difficulty related, ugh), Support EXP (which someone mentioned might be not internal level dependent, which I'll bear in mind) and perhaps a few more edge cases for that weird EXP bonus. Also I want to test stuff that happens when you e.g. Kill with counter, or miss an attack but your support partner gets the kill.

Here's the formulae as I currently understand them, working directly off of Revenant Sage's version. It's a little messier, but that's because the truth is a little messier:

LD = level difference, Enemy - Ally (internal)

LD >= 0: Hit = (31 + LD)/3 - Lun
         Kill = 20 + LD*3 + Character
LD = -1: Hit = 10 - Lun
         Kill = 20 + Character
LD <= -2: Hit = max[ (33 + LD)/3, 1] - Lun
          Kill = max( 26 + LD*3 + Character, 7)
Kill EXP = Hit + Kill
MAX: 100

Lun = min(T - 3, 0) if playing on Lunatic or Lunatic+
T = no. of times the enemy has been hit, including this attack

Boss bonus:
20: If the enemy is a boss

Character bonus = Min( Unit bonus + Class bonus, Unit bonus) if a Unit bonus applies
Character bonus = Class bonus otherwise

Unit bonus:
20: Enemy is a Deadlord (chapter 22, Infinite Regalia)
20: Enemy in a Character DLC map (Champions of Yore, Lost Bloodlines, Smash Brethren, Rogues & Redeemers)
0: Enemy in Harvest Scramble, excluding the boss

Class bonus:
20: Thief, Assassin, Trickster, Conqueror
80: Revenant, Entombed
-10: Troubadour, Cleric, Priest
0: Otherwise

Phew, that's a bit of a mess. I'm sure it can be cleaned up a little, although the mathematician inside of me wants to make it more concise, not more explained, while that latter is probably what's needed. I might have also introduced a weird error into it accidentally. But the following notes are probably worthwhile:

Character bonus does indeed take the minimum. So if class bonus is positive, it's not applied, but if it's negative, it does. This applies most notably to Troubadours (e.g. Nanna in CoY) and Harvest Scramble.

Yes, kill EXP can equal 7. My mind was blown as well.

Round down at the end of each step.

[Scarlet]

Still to test is staff+dance EXP (which I believe is difficulty related, ugh)

Staff Exp is definitely difficulty related, although I'm not sure if it's a modifier or a constant.

For quick reference, Lv1 Lissa with a Heal Staff gets:

- 25 Exp on Normal

- 20 Exp on Hard

- 17 Exp on Lunatic