Duke of Dozel Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I saw the list of supposed "Gordin"'s, units who have average growths and wield bows and the like. And I saw that Jamke was listed as such instead of Midir. I always saw Jamke as more towards the Kashim of the game since he has better growths over all. Thoughts? (Saw the list at the wiki, so it could very well be wrong.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostyFireMage Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 Midir is mounted so they're not as comparable as Gordin/Jamke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke of Dozel Posted May 19, 2014 Author Share Posted May 19, 2014 I don't think being mounted accounts for much, especially in FE4, where movement is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 FE4's weird because Jamka's more of a "Navarre" archetype since he has the whole "softspot for the cleric while having high stats and a killer weapon" thing for him but Ayra's the swordfighter... Archetypes in general don't usually work very well though. In my opinion, Midir's bases are too good for him to be a "Gordin" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ϲharlie Posted May 19, 2014 Share Posted May 19, 2014 I would say that nobody is a Gordon except for Gordon and Wolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 FE4's weird because Jamka's more of a "Navarre" archetype since he has the whole "softspot for the cleric while having high stats and a killer weapon" thing for him but Ayra's the swordfighter... Archetypes in general don't usually work very well though. In my opinion, Midir's bases are too good for him to be a "Gordin" Yeah, and basing as many archetypes as possible on FE1 works even less well, IMO. Wolt is a clear throwback to Gordin. Rolf is a clear enough throwback to Gordin/Ryan. Jamke? Midir? I really don't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Honestly, most archetypes don't clearly exist until after FE5. There are only two cav pairs that really fit the Cain/Abel archetype, for instance, and there aren't many clear Jagens (who is it in FE2? Luka's there at the beginning, but not that great. In FE4, is it Cuan? Sigurd? In FE5, you've got Fin, Eyval, and Dagda) as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Honestly, most archetypes don't clearly exist until after FE5. There are only two cav pairs that really fit the Cain/Abel archetype, for instance, and there aren't many clear Jagens (who is it in FE2? Luka's there at the beginning, but not that great. In FE4, is it Cuan? Sigurd? In FE5, you've got Fin, Eyval, and Dagda) as well. FE4's Jagen is totally Cuan. Yeah. A lot of so-called archetypes might be traced back to FE1, but I agree that the GBA era pretty much codified what people think of as the archetypes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirmola Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Being a gordon implies being medeocre at best, and jamka is quite good(good stats and every multihit skill in the game but meteor), whereas mideer is definitely usable once you get him a good weapon, if never exelent. (if only due to a horse and the best skill in the game, a relevantly rare combo.) Aditionaly, bows are really usefull during chapters 4-5. The main issue with mideer other then his bad stats is that he can't get a good bow untill chapter 3 without ro.bing jamka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I don't agree with the fandom's need to force archetypes on characters. Ayra is listed as a Nyna. I mean what? She doesn't fit the role. Sara is an Est? How? She's insanely good instantly and is super easy to train which goes against both criteria for Ests. Deen (FE2) is a Navarre? He arrives so late and you never have to fight him when recruiting him. And then we get to wierd territory where we're making up new archetypes to group completely different characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icon of Sin Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Some archetypes translate better while others don't. And then there's FE6 which is basically a weird fusion of both books of FE3 with some new stuff, making the cast look pretty familiar to Akaneia's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirmola Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Some archetypes translate better while others don't. And then there's FE6 which is basically a weird fusion of both books of FE3 with some new stuff, making the cast look pretty familiar to Akaneia's. Honestly, this series has a few pronounced archtypes that really exist (garnef, camus),but once people see archtypes, they start looking for more, and find them where they do not exist. It dousn't help that some "archtypes" are directly emergent from sensible game design. For example, the "julian" is just an early game thief. Tell me with a streight face that you would design an srpg with locked doors ect. In the early game and not have an early game thief. the "lena" is an early game cleric, which is just the developers not being sadistic. Aditionaly, people try to find examples of archtypes in every game. Jahn(fe6) is not a garnef (zephiel comes much closer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Honestly, this series has a few pronounced archtypes that really exist (garnef, camus),but once people see archtypes, they start looking for more, and find them where they do not exist. It dousn't help that some "archtypes" are directly emergent from sensible game design. For example, the "julian" is just an early game thief. Tell me with a streight face that you would design an srpg with locked doors ect. In the early game and not have an early game thief. the "lena" is an early game cleric, which is just the developers not being sadistic. Aditionaly, people try to find examples of archtypes in every game. Jahn(fe6) is not a garnef (zephiel comes much closer). Honestly I think one of the most consistent ones is the Lorenz. Old dude from a "heavy" class, often comes with an adorable small child as an accessory. You have Lorenz and the twins, Hannibal and his son, Xavier, Douglas and Lalam, Duessel (can bond with Amelia), Tauroneo and Rolf, and then FE13 lets on that ol' Basilio is looking to baby!Lucina to be his future champion. That all fits, but then I see claims for Jaffar being "a Lorenz" because of his relationship with Nino. One of these things does not belong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Uncertainty Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 I would agree that there is an over-analysis of character archetypes in the games. I would say there has not been an actual "Est" since Nino. All the others listed on the Wiki don't really fit. Come to think of it, neither do Zeiss or Sophia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 Sophia is just bad. She doesn't even growths that good. Though come to thin of it, Est herself doesn't have growths that great either since Catria has better growths in Shadow Dragon and New Mystery and Mystery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Uncertainty Posted May 26, 2014 Share Posted May 26, 2014 At least for the ests, the list seems to consider the "comes late and is hard to train" part over the "actually turns out really well" part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke of Dozel Posted May 27, 2014 Author Share Posted May 27, 2014 The more I think about it, the more I realize how tacked on archetypes have been lately. Basilio and Flavia aren't even in the same league as Athos and Gotoh. Lissa is listed as a "Marcia" AND a "Lena". And why does Elthlyn even have her own archetype? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logience Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 The more I think about it, the more I realize how tacked on archetypes have been lately. Basilio and Flavia aren't even in the same league as Athos and Gotoh. Lissa is listed as a "Marcia" AND a "Lena". And why does Elthlyn even have her own archetype? Since Otherarrow went on his pilgrimage to TVTropes, security on the Archetype page has been painfully lax. People are throwing in every character trait recycled by FE13 and spitting it out, not knowing that a single gimmick does not a character make. Hell, they're calling Ethlin an archetype solely because she's the first troubadour. Clearly, no one on the site knows about anime cliches and how obviously Yumina, Clarine, Priscilla, L'arachel and Astrid fit into the Ojou cliche. On-topic, Mark-asphodel personally believes that Kaga never blatantly reused character elements, and that archetyping only started when IS had to do something on their own for FE6, so neither Midayle nor Jamka are archetypes. (Inb4 someone makes a Castor Archetype to explain this away) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekkah Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Midir has some things in common with Gordon besides "bows" but they seem too incidental to make a "Gordon" an archetype. You could say that they're both kind of portrayed as wimpy...they both get their butt kicked in a cutscene, though Gordon's is only in Shadow Dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted May 29, 2014 Share Posted May 29, 2014 Since Otherarrow went on his pilgrimage to TVTropes, security on the Archetype page has been painfully lax. People are throwing in every character trait recycled by FE13 and spitting it out, not knowing that a single gimmick does not a character make. Hell, they're calling Ethlin an archetype solely because she's the first troubadour. Clearly, no one on the site knows about anime cliches and how obviously Yumina, Clarine, Priscilla, L'arachel and Astrid fit into the Ojou cliche. On-topic, Mark-asphodel personally believes that Kaga never blatantly reused character elements, and that archetyping only started when IS had to do something on their own for FE6, so neither Midayle nor Jamka are archetypes. (Inb4 someone makes a Castor Archetype to explain this away) Yo. I am mark_asphodel, and Kaga certainly DID reuse character elements. They just weren't codified to the extent that we got beginning in FE6, wherein Roy's starting party made direct reference to Marth's in FE1 and the template barreled along from there through the GBA era. Eltoshan/Ares make a pretty obvious call-back to Camus the Sable Knight. FE4's Linda directly references FE1/3's Linde. Shanam in FE5 follows Samto in FE3 (fraud swordie). Dew follows Rickard (reckless child thief). Turncoat wyvern rider ladies and ambitious Wyvern Lord villains were already part of the scenery. The old bearded dude with the adorable kid was already entrenched as a thing. Sometimes the callbacks were subversive, like with Saphy and Lifis vs Lena and Julian. By FE5 there were definitely elements of earlier games being reused, but more in the way that Tellius re-uses a lot of elements from Jugdral without being super-obvious about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I saw the list of supposed "Gordin"'s, units who have average growths and wield bows and the like. And I saw that Jamke was listed as such instead of Midir. I always saw Jamke as more towards the Kashim of the game since he has better growths over all. Thoughts? Gordin - 'dogshit early archer' - is already pushing it for an archetype. I'm not even sure what a Castor archetype is supposed to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Integrity Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Gordin - 'dogshit early archer' - is already pushing it for an archetype. I'm not even sure what a Castor archetype is supposed to be. "dogshit archer that arrives after the gordin and is vaguely less dogshit" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icon of Sin Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 "dogshit archer that arrives after the gordin and is vaguely less dogshit" fuck it, just train the pretty sniper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logience Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 I knew I tempted fate in the wrong thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymbalina's Revenge Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 fuck it, just train the pretty sniper Does Jeorge count as a pretty sniper? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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