0% growths TearRing Saga LTC + questions

[lich]

2019 edit: It's a little late but I recently went through my old memory cards to remember the tactics I used so I figure I might as well add some general notes in case it helps anyone doing some sort of trs playthrough. Note that playing this way is super boring due to the millions of resets and it's not even a particularly interesting run to plan out since I ignored reliability to take the most direct path to the throne.

ch1 (6 turns): Runan got sea fighter. The iron sword got 5 kills and sasha got some exp. Picked narron.

ch2 (9 turns): Gave kills to iron sword and to narron. So far it seems like I've bought a steel sword, two slim lances, three iron lances, three javelins, and a hand axe. Not going to bother listing stuff I buy since I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

ch3 (4 turns): looks like I'm missing a couple save files so I'm not sure on some of this. Deployed julia, esther, bartz, garo, raffin, kreiss, arkis, narron. Sent one mount to lure the boss then finished with an axe user. The other cavs, raffin included, went to the southwest. No javelin crits but due to 0% growths I had to get two crits with the iron sword +18 (perhaps only one?). Presumably no crits required if playing with growths but I haven't looked into it. Julia obtained the super proof and knight crest from the villages. Runan met Narcus.

ch4 (11 turns): I don't remember anything. I let them live but it wouldn't be much of a loss if I killed mel.

ch5 (3 turns): I didn't realize unequipping raquel and raffin was the answer so I wasted a turn.

ch6 (3 turns): Mahter is too weak to two-turn in 0% so I deployed zieg in the left group and 3-turned. Sasha spoke to Mel for the flute. Narron promoted.
-> Mahter could 1-turn if she had a luna sword. I don't know how random drops work, can the enemies in ch5 drop one?

ch7 (6 turns): Nothing interesting. Sasha got some exp in the arena and Mel died so I could revive her later (though she's not necessary). I bought lots of stuff.

ch8 (10 turns): Nothing special. Sasha hit lvl10, zieg hit lvl14. Yuni got the agi plus and knight proof. I think mahter helped clear the way and runan picked up some kills, while the rest killed the reinforcements.

split #1:
Runan's team: sasha, zieg, raffin, plum, tom, esther, kreiss, julia, arkis
Holmes' team: xeno, juni, garo, narron, raquel, barts, mahter, vega, maruju, kate
Most gold with runan to buy charms while holmes can get rich gambling
Some notable items include: far-healing, needle spear, one estoc, and ran's mirror with runan; save staff, +crit iron sword, killing edge, and HP+ potion with holmes
I think I ended up selling the knight proof

ch9 (5 turns): Deployed meriah, raffin, and zieg at the top of the map. Zieg put in a ton of work with wrath crits and stuff.

ch10 (7 turns): I wasn't aware that killing the armor knight would let you recruit mintz so I kept my units out of range of the northern enemies and missed him. I bought the dragon flute for Sasha.

ch11 (0 turns)

ch12 (3 turns): Picked up sylphid and lionel on the way. Attrom (and lionel, and shigen, and barts, and vega, and narron) need to gain exp quickly in holmes' chapters. Attrom got 5 kills here, lionel got 4.

ch13 (2 turns): Mahter had used a wlv+ at some point beforehand. Here I killed the mercenary to get the thunder sword then gave it to mahter to ORKO the boss.

ch14 (5 turns): Krishna helped shigen move to a better starting position. I think this chapter was pretty straightforward aside from getting exp for everyone. Attrom barely had enough exp to promote (12 kills so far), narron learned re-move early in the chapter, barts hit lvl10, vega was lvl9, shigen was just short of lvl10, lionel was lvl7. Macaroon even captured four enemies. Picked +mag, +str, +agi, +skl, and hero proof.

ch15 (1 turn): Promoted attrom recruited lyria on turn 1. Plum helped holmes move forward. Mahter moved forward. Then lyria refreshed both of them with a single sing (1% chance), mahter recruited frau, and holmes seized. Afterwards lyria ran the coinflip out of business and I taught my units a bunch of skills.

ch16 (9 turns): Used two save staff charges but it looks like I lost one of the save files. Not only did I rely on a sing refresh, the splitting and movement of the monsters can screw me over easily. I killed the nearby opus with the longbow and shigen killed the other one so I could promote him. I gave frontier fighter to Plum, Lyria, Holmes, Yuni, Marco, Vega, and Lionel. Holmes got the gatling bow from the bottom chest, yuni got the repair staff then the hero proof, Martin got the saint proof and knight proof. Lyria used an empower on Vega and refreshed yuni to reach the chest on turn 9. I think she also refreshed someone in the early turns (hence the save). I think Vega killed the boss then led the way to the top left. Lionel went to the top right. Plum helped get people to the top right and lyria helped get yuni to the top left. By the end of the chapter lionel was lvl10 and vega was well over; lionel and barts promoted after the map. In retrospect I'm not sure why I bothered promoting shigen when I could have promoted vega and deployed attrom instead of shigen.

ch17 (5 turns): Deployed raffin, esther, arkis, zieg, kreiss, sasha, meriah, and julia. I think zieg killed the boss and the ballista before helping with the escaping soldiers. Got the thunder sword, sage proof, arrowspate, +skl potion, hero crest, and magic shield.
-> If map 34 was a plains map like it claims to be, raffin would need to learn plains fighter here. But it's not, so he doesn't.

ch18 (4 turns): This chapter is a nightmare without the save staff. Deployed esther, arkis, sharon, kreiss, leonie, julia, meriah, tom, raffin, sasha, zieg, and shirou (everyone except billford). Zieg did the majority of the work in the chapter as he could begin attacking turn 1 and take advantage of wrath crits. Sasha and raffin helped out in the lower part of the fort, kriess died, tom did some chip damage to the gate. Several charms were used up. Barbarossa died to a starlight hit + needle spear crit from zieg. Got the hero proof afterwards.

ch19 (2 turns): I can't remember anything about this chapter

ligria fort (2 turns): Plum and lyria had city fighter. Lyria used pluspower on narron, narron broke the gate, plum danced narron, narron killed a harpy. Turn 2, narron killed a green ogre with a killing edge and waited in front of the boss. Holmes and Raquel killed a couple monsters from the fort and the battle ended on enemy phase. Made krishna a shopkeeper and stocked up on charms.

mummy map (1 turn): with plum and frau/mahter spawning in the perfect location you can kill all the mummies on enemy phase 1. If you've already given mahter the str+ they might not attack her due to her vantage skill.

ariel caves #1 (3 turns): Not only does an enemy have to spawn with earthquake for you to steal, you need to get good starting positions and possibly need a sing refresh to reach the chests. Holmes, yuni, lyria, and plum all need mountain figher and your combat units need to clear a path for them.

ariel caves #2 (2 turns): Just need a sing refresh to reach the north chest.

ch20 (2 turns): Deployed lyria and plum in position's 9 & 10. t1: moved holmes, moved lyria down+left to refresh from 2-range, danced lyria from below, moved lyria left of plum and holmes left of lyria. t2: killed gargoyles, moved holmes, sing refreshed, danced lyria, moved holmes, sing refreshed again, seized.

ch21 (5 turns): deployed narron, shigen, plum, barts, lionel, lyria. I don't remember the early turns but lyria used empower on narron, holmes, barts, and lionel before saving on turn 5. Barts and lionel went to the northeast corner, killing the summoner and one dark mage, trapping the other dark mage so it has to attack lionel from 1-2 range. Narron killed the summoners in the center group (with plum's help) then blocked the road. Holmes, one hit from death, equipped the longbow and positioned himself behind narron so the dark mages would attack him. The treasures were looted of course. Katri roasted the bottom left group and shigen finished off the last guy. Then holmes miraculously killed the dark mages and barts miraculously killed whoever attacked him. Barts' accuracy is terrible so maybe it would be better to deploy mahter instead and re-move her out of attack range on turn 5 so lionel can kill everything.

ch22 (1 turn): Narron and plum need plains fighter. With a +power boost narron OHKOed with an estoc crit.

ch23 (1 turn): For some reason I sung mahter then killed with two killing edge crits. But now that I'm looking at it again I don't see why I couldn't teach both mahter and lyria forest fighter, use empower on mahter (slot 8), dance lyria, sing mahter from 2-range, then kill with a single crit.

sealed bridge #1 (2 turns): Gargoyles spawned close enough for them to attack vega turn 2 enemy phase (and die to +pow shramm). Shigen died.

split #2:
Runan's team: plum, narron, lyria, meriah, raphael, vega, frau, mahter, sasha, barts, sun, raffin, esther, arkis, leonie, yuni, maruj, kate
Holmes' team: lionheart, muggle, attrom, raquel, tom, zachariah, lionel, sierra, garo, xeno, shirou, julia, billford, sharon

ch24 (5 turns): Everyone filled their inventory with charms. LOTS of charms. Plum and Lyria needed sea fighter. Turn 1 runan moveed forward, lyria moved beside him and sing refreshed, plum danced lyria, runan moved again, then lyria moved into a very dangerous position to sing refresh runan at 2 range. The air force removed the arbalest tank to let runan advance (with the main gauche equipped) and then raphael and narron moved to the danger zone to start fighting. The air force was mostly out of ballista range, with sasha carrying ran's mirror. Vega promoted. Turn 1 enemy phase was extremely dangerous but everyone survived thanks to charms and luck. Next I cleared out some enemies, full moved plum to dance narron, and sent the air force to take out a ballista so runan's path wasn't impeded. After that I kept moving runan, narron, and raffin (+ main gauche) towards the throne while the other units killed nearby enemies and kept out of danger (this would have been a good time to kill kate but I forgot). on turn 5 raffin killed the bridge key guy with an iron lance and narron crit the boss with the needle spear so runan could seize.

ch25 (5 turns): deployed narron, mahter, raffin, barts, raphael, maruj, plum, vega, lyria, frau, sasha, yuni. Maruj knew frontier fighter but I don't think he needed it. I sent the air force + barts and vega through the fortifications to clear the path for runan (the blue star iron sword helps here) while yuni searched the desert for a mag+, agi+, and pow+. Rebecca learned frontier fighter. The dracoknights didn't attack anyone. I didn't kill the north boss either, just lured him off the throne. On turn 5 lyria sing refreshed runan so he could seize.

ch26 (2 turns): Deployed rebecca, mahter, raffin, raphael, barts, arkis, narron, sun, plum, lyria, vega, sasha. Vega, lyria, and plum needed city fighter. Also used some charms. Turn 1 runan moved towards the boss, plum danced runan, vega moved toward the boss, lyria used empower on vega, and other units went to visit houses. Turn 2 visited houses and moved vega, sung vega with lyria, killed boss, danced lyria, moved runan, sing runan, seized. If sing isn't 3-range for whatever reason lyria can sing refresh vega on turn 1 and crit the boss.

ch27 (4 turns): Taught sierra city fighter and used stat boosters before the map. Without refreshers this takes 4 turns minimum so just kill stuff and get the chests.
-> This can be 2-turned with lyria.

ch28 (1 turn): killed the boss

ch29 (3 turns): Warped sierra to renee's area to kill the midboss with nosferatu. Lured the boss off the throne on turn 2. Recruited renee on turn 3 and warped holmes to seize.
-> This can be 2-turned with lyria.

ch30 (1 turn): warp. Taught holmes wrath and gave skills to other units e.g. vantage zachariah

morse tower (1+1+1+1+1 turn): warp. Captured thief swords on floors 1&2, evil thunder on floor 3, nothing on floor 4, and another thief sword on floor 5. Revived dead people.

split #3:
runan's team: plum, mahter, sierra, tom, raquel, frau, lionel, narron, sasha, raphael, yoda, raffin, vega, lionheart, sun, mel, rebecca, meriah, barts, yuni, leonie, esther, kreiss, arkis, lina, shirou
holmes' team: renee, lyria, zacariah, attrom, garo, marching, billford, sharon, xeno, maruj, julia, kate
notable items with holmes: rukuud, gatling bow, repair, a couple door keys
notable items with runan: basically everything else, including bridge keys

sealed bridge #2 (1 turn): exorcise staff, refreshed with lyria, exorcised the rest

ch31 (1 turn): empower zachariah, warp, killed zieg w/ rukuud crit

ch32 (1 turn): warped zachariah, sing refreshed, killed boss, warped holmes, seize

ch33 (2 turns): warp zachariah, killed boss once. killed boss again, got a sing refresh to repair warp, warped holmes, seized sword.

ch34 (2 turns): rewarped sierra, used statboosters and attacked with sylphid on t1 ep and t2. Flew over with raffin (holding goddess shield) and atackedwith luna. Used long range bows + thief swords on air squad to disable ballistae. Cleared path through tanks before killing ernst.
-> To 1-turn this with 0% growths, plum and raffin need to move 5 and 9 tiles respectively so raffin can attack ernst with luna. But they can't since this isn't really a plains map. I'd also need sierra to crit with god hand (thoron) with 40 hit and 3% crit so whatever.
-> to 1-turn this with growths I need movement growth. 10 move on lionel would work. Kill one tank with lionel's luna sword, kill one with narron and mahter's thunder swords, kill one with sierra, dance lionel, kill ernst with a luna crit, then seize.

ch35 (2 turns): Rewarped sierra to julius (gave her some charms) and danced raphael so he could finish with luna. Killed the mage blocking the way.

ch36 (6 turns): danced runan so he could reachs the house on turn 1, then waited around.

ch37 (5 turns): Deployed plum, mel, barts, sierra, yoda, raphael, lionel, rebecca, vega, yuni, and raquel. Plum, barts, sierra, vega, and yuni were tutored city fighter and others learn it naturally. Lots of things going on so I'll go through by character.
plum: move up to dance runan t1, move up to dance yuni t2, help raphael and yoda t3/4, then trade lan's mirror and dance sierra t5.
mel: not necessary, essentially a second rebecca. Can be substituted with a combat unit.
barts: move north then west. Goal is to unlock the bridge to the mag+ chest.
sierra: first warp to the bottom left to lure dracozombies. Then warp to kill the boss. Then kill the boss again. Then warp to yuni and use the mag+. Then warp to plum and earthquake. Plum will trade lan's mirror before dancing so sierra should warp near runan for the second earthquake. With 21 magic power (11 base + 3*3 + 1 might) most enemies are 2HKOed and the rest are severaly weakened.
yoda: kill nearby witches and move towards the summoners. Kill any remaining summons on enemy phase 5. (master sword should be plenty but one of yoda/raphael/lionel can use the luna sword)
raphael: kill nearby witches with master sword and move towards the summoners to help yoda.
lionel: move towards the dracozombie nest. Take a hit to fall to 1hp then kill stuff with wrath-boosted canaan spear / needle spear / pila / etc.
rebecca: summon to distract witches, save three times, and use far-healing if necessary.
vega: move towards the boss area to unlock the bridge. Then finish off a dracozombie straggler.
yuni: move to the mag+ chest. Get danced on turn 2, unlock first bridge on turn 3, open chest on turn 4.
raquel: go to the dracozombie nest and kill stuff with silver bow / arbalest / longbow / master bow
runan: move towards the sword. Get danced on turn 1, take the sword on turn 4, and kill the dragon scale dracozombie with a hit+crit on turn 5.

ch38 (1 turn): empowered holmes, warped to exit, killed with gatling bow.

ch39 (1 turn): rewarped and killed

ch40 (4 turns): sierra opened runan's door, got danced, opened sennet's door. Renee opened holmes' door then used exorcise as she went to meet sennet at the top of the map. Lyria used empower on holmes. Sierra warped around killing stuff and some combat units cleared the way of runan. On turn 4 sierra and alfred cleared the path with evil thunder and tornado. sennet moved to renee and got warped beside gerxel. runan walked up below gerxel and attacked. Holmes moved up, got danced, then attacked. Tia attacked last to finish him off. Runan, Holmes, and Tia needed 3 crits between their four hits but the crit %s are quite high as holmes has wrath.

total = 150 in chapters + 16 in encounters

 

Notable skill assignments
runan: sea fighter
narron: plains fighter
barts: frontier fighter
plum: plains fighter, mountain fighter, sea fighter, frontier fighter, city fighter
mahter: forest fighter
vega: frontier fighter, city fighter
yuni: mountain fighter, frontier fighter, city fighter
holmes: mountain fighter, frontier fighter, wrath
lionel: frontier fighter
merchant: frontier fighter
lyria: mountain fighter, sea fighter, frontier fighter, city fighter
sierra: city fighter

Notable stat boosters
runan: pow+ (better odds of killing dragonscale dracozombie in ch37)
mahter: wlv+ (thunder sword in ch13 and various other chapters, killing edge in ch23), pow+ (ch23, but unnecessary with empower. Lyria needs forest fighter though)
lionel: mhp+ (helps in ch37 especially)
sierra: wlv+ (earthquake and evil thunder), skl+*2 (accuracy), agi+*3 (doubling, e.g. ch37 boss), mag+*3 (earthquake power)

Promotions
narron
sasha
sasha
raffin
attrom
shigen
barts
lionel
vega

 

 

OLD POST:

I did a preliminary 0% growth LTC run of TRS recently (thanks to BBM for helping me change growths), taking a total of 160 turns in chapters and 19 in encounters. Thanks to Rin Nakai and dondon151, as I got ideas for a couple chapters from their playthroughs. Anyways, I'm planning on improving the run by using Lyria's sing to gain extra turns, potentially dropping the turncount as low as 153 + 16 [150 + 16]. I think that's the lowest reasonably achievable without using save states or anything like that (though the save staff will certainly be heavily used) [i don't think it can be lowered even with save states, the save staff is barely enough for everything], but it's based on a couple assumptions on my part. I'll write up strategies for each chapter when I do my final run, but I need to figure a couple things out first.

First of all, how does the sing command work? According to a formula I saw at fireemblemwod.com (speaking of which, the Serenes page on TRS has a bunch of inaccurate data and is also missing a lot) sing's reactivation rate is (times used/50)*2 + (support with Lyria/5) + 10, meaning the minimum is 10%. Is this accurate? It seems lower than that, but it's plausible that I've just been unlucky in my past experiences. And it also says the range of the command is (times used/5) + 1, with the maximum being 4. But the range definitely doesn't increase after 5 uses, and it can be visibly seen so it's not just me. So, how does it work?

And there isn't any restriction on reactivating Plum because she's a dancer, is there? That would be a problem. [seems to be the case] Similarly, is it possible to reactivate two units at once even with an untrained skill? [yes] I need a double reactivation (or a promoted Attrom, but I think that's impossible at that point) [promoted Attrom is barely obtainable] to 1-turn chapter 15 and I need a 2-range sing reactivation to 2-turn chapter 20.

Speaking of chapter 15, what happens if I kill Frau? She's in the way. Does Sun still join? [sun still joins. Not that she's ever useful]

Also, what happens if I kill off Mel before she leaves the party after chapter 7? Can I revive her at Morse Tower? If so, will she stay in the party for the rest of the game or will she leave? I really want another memory staff user for turn 5 of ch37 since I'm sending Lyria with Holmes this time. [Mel stays in the party if revived]

In chapter 25, how does the dracoknight AI work? I used a sacrifice (revived later) to lure them away from Yuni last time, but I'll have to put her in their range a turn earlier so I dunno how they'll respond. I did notice they tended to stick together even if they could attack more units by splitting apart but what determines which direction the leader goes? [they seem to follow the leader, but I'm still not sure how his AI works]

Do skills apply to multitarget tomes? Specifically, does the Life or Death skill affect Sierra's earthquake? [Life or Death doesn't seem to help. But I didn't have any problems with earthquake since I gave Sierra City Fighter.]

By the way, if you save before opening a random chest the result will be different each time. So you could technically get a skl+ and a pow+ in the ariel caves in exchange for merely a couple memory staff charges. But do you think that goes against the spirit of a 0% growths run? [i decided against it; it ruins the challenge, doesn't save turns, and it's a waste of precious save staff charges.]

Finally, I'm just not sure how standard "LTC" runs work. What are the typical rules? I tend to do 0% growth "ironman" LTC runs of most games (no resetting, delete file upon game over. I've been just above 180 turns in FE5 but would have a reasonable chance of a SS rank with a slightly riskier strategy in one chapter) rather than reset-crazy ones like this one, so I'm not sure how reliable something must be to be considered a viable strategy. I'll be doing a lot of resetting in many chapters, but there has to be some limit to the chances of strategies working. And I think RNG-abuse runs where you do seemingly illogical moves to capitalize on a fixed RNG are even dumber. And I'm also not willing to reset for a rare item drop from an enemy or anything like that, since they're an absurdly rare occurance (anyone have the numbers on that, by the way?). I mean, you could theoretically have Lyria and Sun sing and dance their way across every map in one turn but that's just silly.

Oh, I forgot to mention that 0% growths TRS is a lot of fun. TRS is great but the game's main problem is the lack of difficulty. For the most part, 0% growths makes your character strength more appropriately balanced relative to the enemy (honestly, it's still rather easy). What I'm doing is tedious, but I highly recommend 0% growths if you're replaying TRS.

Edited August 19, 2019 by lich

[Chiki]

Anyways, I'm planning on improving the run by using Lyria's sing to gain extra turns

I mean, you could theoretically have Lyria and Sun sing and dance their way across every map in one turn but that's just silly.

I'll be doing a lot of resetting in many chapters, but there has to be some limit to the chances of strategies working.

I quoted 3 lines here on purpose. Then what's that limit? Where are you going to draw the arbitrary line? If you rig Lyria's songs, you're going to deal with the dilemma of what line to draw.

Finally, I'm just not sure how standard "LTC" runs work. What are the typical rules?

Most people don't RNG abuse at all, as far as I can see.

And I think RNG-abuse runs where you do seemingly illogical moves to capitalize on a fixed RNG are even dumber.

What does this mean?

Edited June 19, 2014 by Chiki

[lich]

I quoted 3 lines here on purpose. Then what's that limit? Where are you going to draw the arbitrary line? If you rig Lyria's songs, you're going to deal with the dilemma of what line to draw.

Most people don't RNG abuse at all, as far as I can see.

What does this mean?

I was looking for advice on where to draw that line, which is why I asked. I mentioned that I've done runs start to finish without resetting; those runs aren't entirely free of RNG abuse either, but I like how there's at least sort of a line drawn. However, I (perhaps mistakenly) got the impression that that was not the way LTC runs are typically done, and any run with resetting is more uncertain with regard to this arbitrary line. Even if I were not to rig songs, I might have to decide between a 99% reliable strategy for a 6 turn vs a 50% reliable strategy for a 5 turn vs a 10% reliable strategy for a 4 turn, for example. What would a "typical" LTC run use? I've skimmed through a few LTC runs logs here on Serenes and only the vast minority of strategies have high, RNG-abuse free reliability; they mention using save points to rig crits, require certain level-up gains, etc. I figure using save staves to rig songs is essentially the same thing, but that's not a very discrete line so I was looking for more guidance in that regard. Is 10% too low? What % is acceptable?

As for the last thing, I am vaguely aware that in GBA(?) games, results can be replicated by repeating the same actions. I'm not interested in playing the game that way so I won't consider it, if it's even possible here (pretty sure it isn't).

[Chiki]

I'd go for the 10% 4 turn. Yes, people do talk about strategies, but as far as I've seen, I'm the only one who RNG abuses in playthroughs. dondon, Horace, PKL, etc. all prefer efficiency as opposed to RNG abusing. In a recent run dondon refused to rig too much (even though he has an RNG viewer) in FE6. Horace and PKL both do efficiency and little rigging, as far as I recall.

My motto is to just RNG abuse as much as I have patience for. But Lyria's songs would have to require rigging in so many chapters, and the line to draw would be so arbitrary and confusing, that it might be best to just ban that completely.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Chiki

[lich]

I see. What exactly does "effeciency" mean, though? Whatever takes the least real time?

[Chiki]

It depends for every person. Some people who claim to play "efficiently" are actually not efficient at all (Interceptor beat FE10 hard mode in somewhere around 270 turns, which is granny level for many efficiency players). When people make efficiency tier lists, they don't define what's efficient at all, and everyone has a different idea of how efficient a tier list should be, so it's confusing.

[BBM]

I would be very interested to see what the turncount breakdown for your preliminary run was. IIRC the LTC run with growths also had a turncount of 160, so the fact that you could match it without any growths is quite impressive already.

[dondon151]

i've been getting a bit less stringent on what i can or can't rig. the problem with rigging things on the GBA games is that it's impossible to just change up my strategy due to the predictable RNG, so i have to burn RNs sometimes.

horace has to rig FE8 a little bit because otherwise reaching the desired mag benchmarks for warp is nigh impossible.

now as for TRS:

1. in my limited play of the game, i have never once seen lyria's song refresh any unit. i would suggest you do some empirical testing to see if song's chance of refreshing is in fact 10% to begin with.

2. you can draw the line wherever you want with random drops, etc. obviously some random drops are easier than others.

3. as for song itself, i think it's really easy to draw the line at not using it to restore units' turns, but you can do whatever you wish.

anyway, i'm curious as to whether you improved on the turncounts for any of the main maps. i know that 160 is the same that i got with growths, but you might have shaved off a turn somewhere and had to take an extra turn elsewhere, or something. i was pretty sure that i got minimum turncounts without song, but the possibility that i overlooked something is high.

Edited June 19, 2014 by dondon151

[lich]

The turncount breakdown for the main maps was the same as dondon's run. I only saved turns in the Ligria Fort encounter (pluspowered Narron crit the boss and killed everyone else on turn 2 enemy phase, Holmes and Raquel killed harpies on counter) and the subsequent mummy map (I got a super lucky enemy arrangement to kill with Sun after a memory staff but both Mahter or Frau have a reasonable chance of killing them on turn 1, particularly since Plum has mountain fighter). I think it's theoretically possible to save a turn on a couple other encounters with incredibly lucky enemy positions, but sing is more reliable than that.

I did some empirical testing of sing, I think it does have a 10% refresh rate but it does not seem to work on Plum. However, I'm not sure how the range is determined or whether I can increase the range by chapter 20. I think I might decide to "draw the line" fairly liberally and do a run with singing allowed, but with enemy item drops and chest abuse not permitted (especially since they don't save turns). I guess there's no agreed-upon limit to rigging so I'll do as I please. I don't think it's possible to promote Attrom by chapter 15 and attempting to 5-turn chapter 24 is probably suicidal, but otherwise I believe the theoretical minimum turncounts are humanly reachable. Though I haven't bothered to consider 9-turning chapter 16 using sing, I'm expecting (and hoping) it to be impossible.

I'm pretty sure you can slightly lower the turncount if you do have growths, though not withing your rigging limit. You can clear chapter 6 in 2 turns with a +1 strength Mahter by double critting the boss with an estoc; if you level once in str+skl, you almost have a 1% chance. I'm glad he survives with 1 hp in 0% growths. And you can probably 1-turn chapters 34 and 35 with some absurd movement growth. Not sure if there's any else. Though you can certainly lower the displayed turncount by farming MOV+ from Mermel cave encounters.

Oh and maybe you can 4-turn chapter 3 if you pull off some crits or something, I'll look into it later.

Edited June 20, 2014 by lich

[dondon151]

oh right, i also made sure there were no mov growths in my run.

i think that in order to 9-turn chapter 16, you'd have to sing proc on at least 4 different units.

most of the maps on 0% seem pretty straightforward, but the ones i'm having difficulty with imagining are chapters 18 and 37. i'm also not sure if you used holmes to ORKO the chapter 38 boss or not.

[lich]

Chapter 38 was easy. Holmes ORKOs with the gatling bow after a single POW+; 20 attack against 10 defense makes for a neat kill (11 base str + 1 on promotion + 3 from pow+ + 5 might gatling bow). Holmes has to ORKO the boss to clear the chapter in 1 turn, after all. In my next playthrough, I won't give him the POW+ but I'll have Lyria to power staff him (this way I can have Mahter double-crit the CH23 boss after being sung, yay. Frau could do it without the POW+ but Mahter wants the WLV+ to kill the pirate boss as well).

Chapter 18 was awful. Especially since I had to send the save staff with Holmes. I had given Runan's party more charms and shields than you probably had because I used the Brahd coinflip later on to get funds, and I used a lot of them. The first part of the chapter was okay. From what I remember, on turn 1 Zeek killed a ballista and the rest of my units advanced (Sasha and Raffin stayed out of range). On turn 2, Thomas shot the door, Zeek killed something, Raffin+Sasha took out an archer and moved into safe zones of ballistae (they each had a charm). Turn 3, Thomas and Shirou broke the door, Meriah and Runan took out an armor knight, Zeek killed something else, Raffin killed a ballista, and Kriess(?) had to help Sasha finish off the bottom one. He actually died here and was resurructed later. Turn 4, Raffin cleared the path to the boss and then Barbarossa fell to a Starlight from Meriah + a Needle Spear crit from Zeek. I got pretty lucky and cleared the chapter in less attempts than expected, but it still felt like a long time.

Chapter 37 was even more awful, but thankfully Rebecca and Lyria could use six memory staff charges over five turns. Not only did I have to lure the dracozombies correctly, only a couple units could kill them. And I had to kill witches, and I had to clear out summons, and (most notably) I had to have Yuni unlock the MAG+ chest and Sierra use it on turn 4. That way she chould 2HKO enemies here and OHKO opus with evil thunder (obtained from Morse Tower level 3, I think) in the final chapter. I had previously used the MHP+ on Lionel so he could survive dracozombie attacks and survive with 1HP, guaranteeing criticals and ORKOs with the Canaan lance or steel claymore (I preferred to have him finish of weakened ones, though), and Raquel could kill them with the silver bow at full HP or even finish off weakened ones with the longbow/arbalest. Loffaru and Zachariah cleaned up some witches (master sword is enough to ORKO) then were assigned to Golem-killing duty [by the way, on my next run I'll send Zachariah with Holmes and take Yoda with Runan; Lyria's going with Holmes so Zachariah can OHKO Zeek through the silver shield. Zachariah is good but his 18 defense means ogres won't attack him so I had to put Loffaru in front on turn 5]. Vega, Plum, and Yuni were tutored city fighter previously. Runan was danced on turn 1 so he and Vega could rush to the sword, with Vega opening the door on turn 4. Lionel and Raquel went left to clear out dracozombies. Sierra warped to the very bottom left corner of the dracozombie pit on turn 1, causing some to suicide. She could only get hit twice or I was screwed (I think I'll tutor anti-evil to her next time, but I'm worried they won't target her anymore). Raquel counterattacked the dark mage on turn 1. Barts was positioned above her, Yuni to the left, and Plum below. Charms were widely distributed and I had to hope the witches wouldn't go anywhere annoying. On turn 2, hopefully Sierra was okay and Vega's path was clear. Then Sierra warped to bosskill the first time. Lionel and Raquel started the dracozombie cleanup while Zachariah and Loffaru killed the dark mage and witch/moved north. They got powered up by Lyria though it wasn't absolutely necessary (Yoda will be able to double summons with luna so he thankfully won't need it). Yuni moved as far north as she could and was danced by Plum, and Barts followed her. Turn 3, Sierra bosskilled again, Runan&Vega kept moving, Lionel&Raquel kept killing + lured if necessary, Loffaru&Zachariah were danced north. Yuni unlocked the bridge and Barts followed her. On turn 4, Vega unlocked the bridge for Runan to seize the sword, Barts unlocked the bridge for Yuni to seize the MAG+ and Sierra warped over to use it. Zachariah and Loffaru worked their way into the summon area and I saved at the end of turn 4. On turn 5, I had to 1. Earthquake all summoners and any remaining dark mages or witches, 2. Earthquake them all again, and over the two earthquakes I wanted to hit all the summons at least once, (3) Crit the dracozombie boss with Runan (one pow+ or a power staff kept it from being a double crit) and (4) Vega also had to crit a regular dracozombie with Shramm. Then, (5) Loffaru (or Zachariah of the ogres were all dead) had to finish off the enemies on enemy phase with the luna or master sword. Fortunately, the save during turn 4 and two saves (Lyria and Rebecca) on turn 5 made those things realistically achievable, though still heavily luck reliant.

This chapter is why I want to know if I can get Mel to rejoin; otherwise, I'll have to disperse those events over a mere two saves. I guess I can suck it up and do some more resetting.

By the way, chapter 21 wasn't too bad since I could save at the end of turns 4 and 5. Lyria was needed to power staff Barts, Lionel, and Narron so they could OHKO summoners (Holmes could just use the pow+ then, but I was saving it for some reason and used another power staff charge). The main trick to this chapter was to trap one of the evil worm mages in the top right, either between Lionel and (promoted) Barts or at the very top right. That way he's forced to attack someone who can counterattack and kill him. I had to use Barts and Lionel because they needed enough strength to OHKO the witch on counter; either them or promoted Kreiss/Sun + WLV+ to use pilums would suffice (but I couldn't spare a WLV+).

Another reset-prone chapter was chapter 22, since I had to have Narron crit with an Estoc (not enough speed to double Zachariah). ~10% crit but it felt like less.

I think that's it for the tricky chapters. I had to reset for later bosskills on Runan's final route but the memory staff made that pretty trivial. I vaguely remember chapter 9 being a bit annoying, and chapter 16 gave me some trouble until I realized I could kill the bottom left opus with the longbow on turn 1. In general, chapters like 24 (Runan didn't have to go through the gauntlet on turn 1 because Plum had sea fighter) and 25 were moderately challenging without being too crazy so they were a lot of fun. Anyways, this is just how I did the chapters - if everyone puts their minds to it, we can surely increase reliability.

By the way, I'm fairly certain that I can rig a chapter 3 4-turn clear with memory staff use (not that I have any memory staff use to spare), assuming the +crit iron sword has been fed some kills. Swap&crit with Narron, Kreiss, and Arkis.

[dondon151]

just fyi, anti-evil doesn't work against AoE breath, so don't bother tutoring it to sierra if that's what you're going to use it for.

[lich]

just fyi, anti-evil doesn't work against AoE breath, so don't bother tutoring it to sierra if that's what you're going to use it for.

Good to know, I wont bother with anti-evil.

EDIT: Updated with the final turncounts.

ch1 6

ch2 9

ch3 4

ch4 11

ch5 3

ch6 3

ch7 6

ch8 10

ch9 5

ch10 7

ch11 0

ch12 3

ch13 2

ch14 5

ch15 1

ch16 9

ch17 5

ch18 4

ch19 2

ligria fort: 2

mummy map: 1 turn

ariel mountains 1: 3

ariel mountains 2: 2

ch20 2

ch21 5

ch22 1

ch23 1

sealed bridge: 2

ch24 5

ch25 5

ch26 2

ch27 4

ch28 1

ch29 3

ch30 1

morse tower: 1+1+1+1+1

sealed bridge 2: 1

ch31 1

ch32 1

ch33 2

ch34 2

ch35 2

ch36 6

ch37 5

ch38 1

ch39 1

ch40 4

=150 in chapters + 16 in encounters

As expected, chapter 3 can be 4-turned with a crit by Kreiss and Narron. If you are playing with growths it can be 4-turned without crits fairly reliably.

Still need to know:

- How do I increase sing's range? -> Seemed to go to 2-range on the 23rd sing, then to 3-range sometime in ch25

- What will Mel do after being revived? -> You can use her!

Edited July 9, 2014 by lich

[lich]

So, I decided to just start and work out the issues as I go along. Everything's gone pretty smoothly so far and I just barely managed to promote Attrom before chapter 15! The high-crit iron sword really came in handy. I also had to lower my war potential to maximize exp. Unfortunately, Shigen is 9 exp short of level 10 but I think I can still manage chapter 16. In any case, now I can 1-turn chapter 15!

It would be simple to just kill Frau, sing Holmes, and seize the gate. However, I could technically recruit her if I got a double re-move off of Lyria's sing (on Holmes and Mahter). The chance of that happening is 1%. Frau won't save any turns, though she'll make chapters 24 and 25 a bit easier. Is there an easier way to save Frau?

Should the completeness of my character roster be a priority? Because I'm tempted to just kill her to get more challenge and less resetting.

[dondon151]

Should the completeness of my character roster be a priority?

since you're already not recruiting narcus or the characters associated (i mean, who would), the answer is no.

[lich]

Complete with 150 turns in chapter, 16 in encounters.

I think this is the lowest possible.

[dondon151]

good work. do you think any more turns can be saved in growths playthroughs with rigged movement growths?

[lich]

good work. do you think any more turns can be saved in growths playthroughs with rigged movement growths?

Yes, but only a couple. Chapter 6 can theoretically be 2-turned with Mahter (needs one STR level up and a double estoc crit) and chapter 34 can be 1-turned with an 11-movement, high-strength Lionel. Chapter 35 can be 1-turned but that requires Lyria so it's not optimal.

You could lower the displayed final turncount (in-chapter turns) by grinding Mermel cave encounters for MOV+ chests, but that's not very LTC-like.

Edited July 10, 2014 by lich

[anonymous776]

I might as well post here in case someone ever decides to replicate this run. Aside from the turncounts recorded here, you can:
- 2-turn map 5, luring the boss into Raquel and Raffin's attack range by having them start the chapter unarmed.
- 2-turn aerial caves #1? This might just barely be possible with the greatest RNG ever but I don't care enough to look into it in detail.
- 1-turn sealed bridge #1. This is very doable with growths because an empowered flying unit can fight the gargoyles with the brave sword. However in 0% growths you need to give your flier three wlv+ potions to use the brave sword. Unless there is a rare enemy drop that can be used instead, this means you must must give all three wlv+s (map 1, map 14 mummy map) to your flier.
The consequence of this is that Sierra will not be able to use earthquake or evil thunder. This doesn't matter for map 40 because Alfred can use evil thunder instead. However map 37 will be much more difficult.
- 4-turn map 25. Deploy Plum in front and Lyria just behind. Dance Lyria twice while using sing to refresh Runan. I still can't believe I missed this. Note that this will miss the pow+ potion so runan may need to double crit a dracozombie in map 37.

- If growths are allowed Mahter can kill the boss of map 6 in a 2-turn. She can double crit with the needle spear if she has gained enough stats and that is far more reliable than the estoc. Mel can be killed in chapter 4 to get Sasha's promotion item or you could play with unpromoted Sasha if you want to recruit and revive Mel later.
- If growths are allowed Sierra can OHKO the boss of map 34 with a god hand (thoron) crit or you can kill him with a high movement Lionel.

- An efficiency run might be more interesting than 0%LTC. The lack of rigging doesn't remove sing from the run: you will still attempt to sing refresh for a chance to save a turn. Even with conservative stat gains, growths allow you to reliably kill a lot of enemies and you have to think about how to distribute exp, e.g. letting Zieg kill the enemies in chapter 10. The dumbest rig-heavy LTC strats are inefficient but most of the other strategies are preserved, especially considering you have charms and the save staff.