Tactless Tactician Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 High movement: FeMU @ Falcon Knight Lucky 7, Lethality, Quick Burn, Tomebreaker, Move+1 Inigo!Morgan@Griffon Rider Counter, Lucky7, RFK, Lethality, Miracle Henry!Cynthia@Falcon Knight Counter, Lucky7, Tomebreaker, Lethality, Miracle Olivia!Lucina@Falcon Knight RFK, Hit+20, Aether, Luna, Lethality Lon'qu!Owain@Griffon Rider Counter, Lucky7, Quick Burn, Lethality, Miracle Vaike!Gerome@Griffon Rider Counter, Lucky7, Quick Burn, Lethality, Miracle Medium movement: Kellam!Laurent@Assassin +boots Counter, Lucky7, Tomebreaker, Lethality, Miracle Libra!Yarne@Assassin +boots Counter, Lucky7, Quick Burn, Lethality, Miracle Gaius!Brady@Paladin Counter, Lucky7, Acrobat, Lethality, Miracle Domingo!Inigo@Paladin Counter, RFK, Lethality, Hit+20, Luna If you feel more lucky with Miracle, give owain and Brady HP+5 instead of Acrobat and Quick Burn. Nah. Those look good enough as-is. Besides, otherwise we might have too many units with HP+5 and Miracle/Counter. Although that is somewhat odd. Am I to assume you meant Chrom!Inigo and it was inadvertently changed through auto-correct or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Thinking about it now, do you think breakers should be substituted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Although that is somewhat odd. Am I to assume you meant Chrom!Inigo and it was inadvertently changed through auto-correct or something? I failed to make a reference to The Princess Bride. That's all. Thinking about it now, do you think breakers should be substituted? Breakers are there because they provide decent avoid against their respective weapon type, but only on top of already existing Lucky7 and/or Quick Burn. What would you exchange them with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactless Tactician Posted April 12, 2015 Author Share Posted April 12, 2015 Thinking about it now, do you think breakers should be substituted? Do you mean substituted in, swapping out other current skills in the process, or having the few Tomebreakers that we currently have removed in favor of something else? Please elaborate. In my opinion, Breakers such as Tomebreaker and Bowbreaker have use for encouraging an opponent to use a 1-range weapon. And most of the Counter-bombers will likely be equipped with a 'Superior' weapon during the first player phase, acting as a faux-breaker there as well. It's also useful for classes that only have one or two weapon types, helping them overcome a potential WTD. I failed to make a reference to The Princess Bride. That's all. How did I miss that?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Well the enemy is going to have 100% displayed hit on us. So it's just a matter of us getting to 100% displayed hit on them. Is a breaker the best way to go about getting hit? If we're running Tomebreaker, it means we could have been running Anathema which always works in our favor. Plus, counter is already encouraging enemies to attack at 2 range much more than a breaker is enticing them to attack at 1. Enemy's dual support and forge leads to a high hit rate bonus--and that's ignoring the possibility that enemies are running any forms of skill hit rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Well the enemy is going to have 100% displayed hit on us. So it's just a matter of us getting to 100% displayed hit on them. Is a breaker the best way to go about getting hit? If we're running Tomebreaker, it means we could have been running Anathema which always works in our favor. Plus, counter is already encouraging enemies to attack at 2 range much more than a breaker is enticing them to attack at 1. Enemy's dual support and forge leads to a high hit rate bonus--and that's ignoring the possibility that enemies are running any forms of skill hit rates. I'm not going to assume all the enemies have hawkeye. If they have ~223 hit, they will hit MU for sure. With Tomes, they need 273 hit. I don't think that'll happen without some serious effort. This MU has ~94 base hit. +70 from Brave Lance. +25 forge. +5 A rank.+15 Quick Burn. +20 Lucky7. That's ~229. I really doubt she cares about 10 more hit from Anathema. You're not being helpful here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 I really doubt she cares about 10 more hit from Anathema. (out of the loop, posting anyway, kids don't do this at home) Normally, I use Anathema as an aura skill - to help everyone else. Do the other pairs appreciate the 10 hit/even matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Normally, I use Anathema as an aura skill - to help everyone else. Do the other pairs appreciate the 10 hit/even matter? They don't, because even though we try to keep our team in formation, eventually everyone has to face the enemy all by themselves in a 1v2. The chances for success are extremely low. Additionally, the chances to survive are almost zero, this means that anyone but the original user of Anathema will most likely not draw any benefit from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 They have access to +15 DuSu + 25 Forge and probably at least one other boost (be it anathema, hit rate +20). It's not a matter of hawkeye, it's a matter of hit is extremely easy to generate. Avo is extremely poor to generate. My point is the breaker isn't helping you dodge (nothing will). Replacing it with Anathema would be moot--but so is running a breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 They have access to +15 DuSu + 25 Forge and probably at least one other boost (be it anathema, hit rate +20). It's not a matter of hawkeye, it's a matter of hit is extremely easy to generate. Avo is extremely poor to generate. My point is the breaker isn't helping you dodge (nothing will). Replacing it with Anathema would be moot--but so is running a breaker. If I want hit, I'll choose hit+20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 The point is running a breaker is running 4 skills. You aren't getting Avo from it, and there are better choices for hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 12, 2015 Share Posted April 12, 2015 Tomebreaker gives me +50 avoid vs. tomes. What are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Tomebreaker gives me +50 avoid vs. tomes. What are you talking about? Enemy's displayed hit is still going to be 100% (or near it). What's the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 It's a bit late to question the raison d'être of this thread don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 It's a bit late to question the raison d'être of this thread don't you think? Tomebreaker is not the crux of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 We're not exactly making progress here. If you want to contribute something to the thread, do it. I'm all ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Anyone with thief can run mov +1 or acrobat. If they are flying units, throw in a proc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Could you be a bit more specific? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 FeMU - add proc Cynthia - add proc or mov +1 Laurent- add proc or mov +1 or acrobat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 This is the progress we made up until yesterday, use it as a basis. I'm growing tired of having to worm all of that out of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tactless Tactician Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 When taking into account the importance of movement with respect to the AI's formation, swapping out Tomebreaker for Mov+1 sounds like an idea worth testing, seeing as it doesn't fundamentally overhaul the pairings or skillsets for the chosen units. However, I'd prefer to attempt to verify Vascela's assertion that that Tomebreaker is of negligible benefit for the AI units with regards to both their Hit and Avoid values. The best method I could think of to test this would be to use the Wellspring of Truth Paralogue as a faux-StreetPass. When I get to the endgame with the previously discussed units, I'll report back on my findings. Unless of course, someone is in a more able position to do so. All this would require is to have a file at the Endgame with Paralogue 24 still unbeaten. The only other specifications are: At least one unit must have Tomebreaker in their skillset. Ideally, Quick Burn and Lucky 7 should also be included. And one other unit must have a tome of some kind equipped, be the lead in a pair-up and engage the unit described above. How does that sound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 This is the progress we made up until yesterday, use it as a basis. I'm growing tired of having to worm all of that out of you. That's precisely the post I'm making a claim to change for. Or is there something I'm missing ( because it isn't your streetpass unit that's for sure 8] )? Celica's 105 hit (25 forge) + 20 hit rate +20 + 15 DuSu + neutral mod sage 43/45 skl/luk (87 flat). 227 hit. A Sage pair up gives +7 Skl +3 Luck (12 hit) +5 A rank tomes leads to 244 hit. Meanwhile neutral Falcon Knight floor 44/45 spd/luk (88) avo + lucky 7 + quick burn (35) + Tomebreaker (50) yields 173 Avo. Any source of Anathema (the most common aura) strikes to ~80 hit post tomebreaker. That's over 90% on true hit. And that's for the lucky7 + quickburn setup. Any setup that uses either or gets shot down to be right next to 100% displayed (read: non-Owain/Gerome/Yarne). Those units who have tomebreaker (Cynthia and Laurent) get zero benefit from tomebreaker. While the former get a 10% Avo from it. If there's any external source besides Anathema (hex, charm) or even skills you are using (lucky 7/quick burn themselves), there is 100% displayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Finally he decides to post something useful. I'll post my own stuff just to confirm Vascela's post. When taking into account the importance of movement with respect to the AI's formation, swapping out Tomebreaker for Mov+1 sounds like an idea worth testing, seeing as it doesn't fundamentally overhaul the pairings or skillsets for the chosen units. However, I'd prefer to attempt to verify Vascela's assertion that that Tomebreaker is of negligible benefit for the AI units with regards to both their Hit and Avoid values. The best method I could think of to test this would be to use the Wellspring of Truth Paralogue as a faux-StreetPass. When I get to the endgame with the previously discussed units, I'll report back on my findings. Unless of course, someone is in a more able position to do so. All this would require is to have a file at the Endgame with Paralogue 24 still unbeaten. The only other specifications are: At least one unit must have Tomebreaker in their skillset. Ideally, Quick Burn and Lucky 7 should also be included. And one other unit must have a tome of some kind equipped, be the lead in a pair-up and engage the unit described above. How does that sound? What a waste of time. #12 contains a super Morgan, so I'm using him. Stats: 76 str/ 72 mag/ 64 skll/ 65 spd/ 64 luk/ 49 def/ 55 res Hit: 128 base, ~100 from weapon, forges and ranks. +15 support ranks. 243 hit. With anathema 253. Avoid: ~130. +10 from S rank. 140. If they have ~223 hit, they will hit MU for sure. With Tomes, they need 273 hit. I don't think that'll happen without some serious effort. This MU has ~94 base hit. +70 from Brave Lance. +25 forge. +5 A rank.+15 Quick Burn. +20 Lucky7. That's ~229. I really doubt she cares about 10 more hit from Anathema. With Anathema, the difference is 20, with hit+20 and Anathema, the difference is zero. Morgan will always hit. Morgan has 140 avoid. If we add 11 hit, FeMu will always hit. with 229 hit, FeMu has 97.69 true hit. What's more useful. Assuming the enemy has Anathema and Hit+20 on the strongest unit possible which eliminates all avoid on FeMu, or 2.3% hit from Anathema? It doesn't matter. Something outside of that would be better. I'm still waiting for that updated list by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vascela Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 It isn't just as simple as "the enemy has hit rate +20 and anathema on everyone" It's any sources of common hit. Who's to say the enemy is locked out of any burn, lucky 7 themselves? Sources of hit are extremely easy to come by. Or to say they aren't fielding Chrom + charm? Or getting +5 from DuSu+? The selling point is that hit rate is extremely easy to itemize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knusperkeks Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Yes we got that about 8 hours ago, now churn out something productive already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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