Is having all your units paired up all the time a viable tactic anymore?

[Giga Man]

I'd like to think it isn't. With such huge maps and large amounts of enemies, I feel like it would be more trouble than it's worth to have all your units paired up the entire battle. I just watched a stream before posting this of a player having all his units paired up for the entirety of the two chapters I watched, and even though he was doing fine, in some instances where he was dealing with multiple enemies in close proximity to his units, I couldn't help but think he would benefit greatly from being able to dual strike, but I don't know.

For what it's worth, he was playing Hoshido on Normal.

[Awakener_]

Guard stance really useless IMO, too much damage output lost if you use pair-up too much (as well as quickly overwhelmed by enemy, a lot of streams I watch had player lose units because of this.). Enemy can afford to have a lot of pair-up units because they have number advantage. Before the nerf, pair-up can potentially do 2 hits even when lead unit can't double then dis-pair. 2 turns for 2 hits isn't too bad but now with weapon penalty and certain weapon lost of ability to double also with pair-up bonus severely nerfed and can't dual strike anymore. 2 turns went by and only 1 hits, that mean you can lost usage of 3 units (support units can't attack and when dis-pair lead and support unit the next turn they take up a action, two units and only get to hit once in two turn unless you continue to let them be paired). Not to mention the support unit can no longer shared exp because they can't dual attack, potential lost of exp is also a problem. But grinding support with guard stance with weak support unit is a safer option then just putting them side by side.

This is just my opinion regarding the nerf.

[Othin]

No. Between the lower bonuses for Guard Stance and the potentially large offensive benefit of Attack Stance, it doesn't have anywhere near the universal application it had in Awakening. It's still fantastic defensively, between the stat bonuses, Dual Guards, and nullifying enemy Dual Attacks, but there's way more thought about "is this actually worth it?" and overusing it really will hurt.

Still opens up just as much movement shenanigans though.

[gayserbeam]

Guard Stance is pretty situational. Attack Stance, on the other hand, is vital and valuable in almost all cases. In fact, my decisions on who to support with who early-game was based largely on weapon type: two melee-locked units will have trouble consitently setting up Attack Stance, while 1-2 ranged classes like mages and ninjas (or a melee unit and a ranged unit like Oboro + Takumi) can consistently get Attack Stance off on the same enemy.

So Pair-Up? Not usually necessary. Being adjacent to another unit? Key.

Edited July 1, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Garnef]

I will say I'm rather glad Dual Strike and Guard were set up this way, it definitely makes things more balanced and less broken.

[NekoKnight]

Guard stance is not as useful as attack stance but it has it's uses. Guard stance blocks enemy dual strikes which can make a big difference if the enemy is attacking you with a mix of ranged and melee units. Dual Guard is risky to rely on because it may activate to block an attack that would have done little damage, leaving you vulnerable a stronger attack. You can tell when it will activate, however, so this can be used strategically to lure in a powerful enemy with impunity. Sometimes the stat gains from guard stance can make a big difference in a unit's performance, as I discovered with pairing Nishiki and Rinka.

Attack stance is generally preferred because the supporting unit can add a lot to your attack. This is especially apparent when they have debuffing weapons (ninja) or effective weapons. One map I played had a lot of flying enemies so I put a high defense unit next to an archer and watched as horses fell from the sky.

[ErrantDShepherd]

Gameplay wise it does indeed seem a bit less broken, and actually requiring one to really think.

It's also actually a great instance of gameplay and story integration. It seemed odd that units couldn't really back each other up, but instead had to always fight one on one in previous games considering the large scale of some of the battles in the stories.

Also standing next to the other units for supports actually has a functional reason now! Awesome. :D

I have been wondering actually... Does placing paired up units next to each other still allow them to use attack stance or does a unit always have to be unpaired to use that? Wasn't quite sure from the streams I saw. :\

Edited July 1, 2015 by TheErrantShepherd

[arvilino]

It's much more situational but it does have a lot of uses. Blocking Enemies attacks stance dual strikes is always useful since their damage output can get quite high because of it and the stat bonuses can make a difference in many situations, a speed boost could mean the difference between getting doubled or not or doubling or not(and provided the character's attack his high enough doubling an enemy is better than 1 attack + Dual Strike) . The advantage of extra Defense or Resistance bonuses in addition to blocking dual attacks is pretty clear in itself, if a unit can survive 2 or 3 attacks and counter on the enemy phase paired up but can only survive 1 attack + 1 Dual Strike when unpaired you'd probably want to use pair up. Plus it's always good for enhancing character movement and getting lower move characters to a certain point on the map quicker.

But it is a waste to keep all your characters paired up all the time during a chapter. Whenever you start a turn and everyone's paired up you can only make half as many moves and your range of options is inflexible especially if you want to change who's paired up with who. Whereas if most of your units are unpaired at the start of the turn you can move all your units and have more options available and still allows you to pair units up as you need them,.

Edited July 1, 2015 by arvilino

[NekoKnight]

I have been wondering actually... Does placing paired up units next to each other still allow them to use attack stance or does a unit always have to be unpaired to use that? Wasn't quite sure from the streams I saw. :\

Paired up units can't use dual strike as the lead unit but they can dual strike if they are the support unit. For example, if Kamui is next to a paired Nishiki-Rinka and attacks someone, he will be in attack stance with Nishiki as his support.

Edited July 1, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm pretty psyched at the comments that it's actually balanced and requires strategy as to when to use it and when not to. This game seems to be fixing pretty much every complaint I had about Awakening's gameplay which is wonderful.

[Giga Man]

Thanks for the replies, folks. You all answered my concerns very thoroughly. Much appreciated.

[someonewhodied]

Theres a DLC scroll called "attack and guard stance"

It gives your units a skill that lets you dual attack in guard stance.

Then have the nohr skill.

Theres your broken pair up :v

[nocturnal YL]

I use guard stance almost all the time because the enemies ganging up on the player can get really nasty. Negating the enemy's dual strike is the biggest benefit it offers.

Given the description, attack and guard stance seems to give you Awakening-style pair up. The enemy can still attack you twice, so you can still get ganged up pretty badly.

[Blue Sun]

Given the description, attack and guard stance seems to give you Awakening-style pair up. The enemy can still attack you twice, so you can still get ganged up pretty badly.

Even then, with the right combination of characters and skills you can very much have a Pair-Up system akin to Awakening if not more powerful than before.

[Ayra]

This to me is the game's greatest strength. You really have to utilise both to be successful in the game and keep switching your setup constantly throughout the fight. What makes me happiest is that this is the way I always played Awakening, but here I get actual bonus for doing so instead of simply doing it for fun/liking to have a lot of units on the battlefield at once.

[Josephl64]

This is another problem I had with Kakusei which seems to be fixed, can't wait until it arrives for me then.

That DLC does seem horribly OP, luckily as always you can just avoid using it.

[Othin]

That skill sounds powerful, but I would say it still doesn't push Guard Stance to the level of overpowered of Pair Up in Awakening just because the pair bonuses are so much lower.

[arvilino]

That skill sounds powerful, but I would say it still doesn't push Guard Stance to the level of overpowered of Pair Up in Awakening just because the pair bonuses are so much lower.

I'd argue it won't push Attack Stance to Awakening's pair up either because Attack Stance's dual strike is a single half damage attack from the support unit no even if the main unit doubles. It's roughly 1/4 as effective as it is in Awakening at very high level/support or 1/8 when you count Brave Weapons.

Edited July 1, 2015 by arvilino