HTakara82 Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 Should we start setting up Meta PvP rules? maybe even hold tourneys and such? I think it'd be fun to do something like that. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auro Astum Posted July 10, 2015 Share Posted July 10, 2015 I think we should have some kind of meta/rules. Tourneys and such would be freaking awesome, though I would likely get my butt kicked quite a bit :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iZallen Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 ill assume lethality is a no-go then for meta? xU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Sun Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Inb4 they ban Copycat Puppet and Galeforce. :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Smogon Vs. Serenes I can see it now on the internet. "Serene Rules Only."Man the broken stats and skills we'll be up against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Sun Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Smogon Vs. Serenes I can see it now on the internet. "Serene Rules Only." Man the broken stats and skills we'll be up against. The Casual v.s. Competitive and Serenes v.s. non-Serenes debates are going to be a real riot. Better have some popcorn ready by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorena Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) If such a thing is put in place I would very much recommend banning of very powerful class skills. (Skill * 0.5)% for Sol + Luna hit is incredibly powerful and is completely luck based. Luck should really have no part in strategy for the most part unless you build a class around that. In that vain, I can see very limited allowable tournaments be hosted for skills. Not to mention that the person attacking first generally has the advantage in a match. I am not certain about map layouts, but 1st turn can play a huge part in getting to defensiveness positions quickly and getting a stupid advantage simply because you have turn 1 advantage. Edited July 11, 2015 by Vorena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Geargia Gateway Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 If such a thing is put in place I would very much recommend banning of very powerful class skills. (Skill * 0.5)% for Sol + Luna hit is incredibly powerful and is completely luck based. Luck should really have no part in strategy for the most part unless you build a class around that. In that vain, I can see very limited allowable tournaments be hosted for skills. Not to mention that the person attacking first generally has the advantage in a match. I am not certain about map layouts, but 1st turn can play a huge part in getting to defensiveness positions quickly and getting a stupid advantage simply because you have turn 1 advantage. True, one run, you could just annihilate anything coming your way through non stop skill execution, then you play again and everything could just go to hell. IS should have thoroughly thought this online through. If they did an online mode properly where your under powered and frail MU ordered generic units turn by turn like chess with no over powered stats and skills to beat you opponent's MU, then the online wouldn't be 'play/grind/trivia to win' experience. That's also how most Strategy games online plays out right? The Casual v.s. Competitive and Serenes v.s. non-Serenes debates are going to be a real riot. Better have some popcorn ready by then. I still have my leftovers from the Veteran Vs. Awakening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 True, one run, you could just annihilate anything coming your way through non stop skill execution, then you play again and everything could just go to hell. IS should have thoroughly thought this online through. If they did an online mode properly where your under powered and frail MU ordered generic units turn by turn like chess with no over powered stats and skills to beat you opponent's MU, then the online wouldn't be 'play/grind/trivia to win' experience. That's also how most Strategy games online plays out right? I still have my leftovers from the Veteran Vs. Awakening. We can do a Generics or a no grind meta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Small amount of players cannot define an overall meta if it's not "Absolute best way to win". You can define a localized ruleset, but the meta will be what is overall in RANDOM matches. And just to say something about a point: Luck should really have no part in strategy "A soldier's greatest ability is not his skill at arms, but his luck." - Napoleon Bonaparte. A solid point of actual strategy is entirely luckbased, and have no doubt that entire battles have been decided on sheer luck. I.E. Midway [i could go into a huge essay on that, but note, the Japanese had a superior force, had superior tactics, and yet, they lost- hard. Why? Luck-- sure poor damage management on the Japanese end, but it was still mostly luck.] Yes, luck based strategy is off kilter, but that's a thing- it works.The catch is all risk management. Yes, Lethality kits are broken. Yes, Aether puts off huge DPS, but here's the thing... it's not because they're "bad but lucky", no they're just outright powerful.And knowing how to employ and make use of that is skill. Now yes, it'd come down to a cheesy build that murderboats your team early, but that's no point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaia Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Just gonna say that banning skills is fucking stupid for any reason. Luck is literally half of Fire Emblem. Hit rate, crit rate, how are skills any different? Edited July 11, 2015 by Gaia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkun Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Competitive Fire Emblem, I never thought I'd see the day... I'm liking where this is going, crossing my fingers for more Dark Tomes in the future so my Shadowgift idea can be viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachmac Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Fire Emblem has always been about Risk vs Reward. Luck is an important part of the system; if we ban sol/luna combos, should we ban Killer weapons to? What about evasive classes, like the Swordsmaster or Elite Ninja? It's tempting to ban Copycat, Lethality, and Breaking Sky right off the bat, but we just can't go banning things willy-nilly. If we do this, we're going to need a solid banning process. We can't just say "Galeforce was OP in Awakening, so let's ban it now!" We need to test these things first. We can't say somethings truly broken if it has yet to have solid evidence. I believe that skills should only be banned if they're far too detrimental to variety. If we hold a tournament, for instance, and almost all of the top half has Copycat and Puppet Breaker on nearly every character, then something needs to be done about that first skill. But, however, if only one or two characters have Breaking Sky per team, then maybe we could let that skill slide. After all, every metagame has characters or skills it trends towards, and FE's will be no different. Edited July 11, 2015 by Zachmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airship Canon Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Just gonna say that banning skills is fucking stupid for any reason. Luck is literally half of Fire Emblem. Hit rate, crit rate, how are skills any different? It's dumb on many levels. Now yes, it might make sense to ban out Lethality in games set up by SF, but that won't be part of an overarching meta unless Lethal gets proven to not be as solid as it seems [and really above 50% on a One-hit kill?]. Meta is bigger than local tourneys. Meta is what you'll see when you do Randoms. Edited July 11, 2015 by Airship Canon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamarsamar Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 If you gotta ban somethin' . . . Ban the DLC~. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonPancham Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 we could make the skills like yugioh. I know the banlist is constantly changing and all. For example we could limit copycat to one unit and possibly sol/luna to two units. But it would need to take a lot of research because certain skill combos could be broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azz Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Or we could simply say skills that character can learn naturally only.(Basically only skills that the unit has access to without Marriage sealing, Buddy sealing, Dread Scrolls, Falcon Feathers etc...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmniMaurice Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Sounds like a interesting idea, if anyone wants me to try out stuff, feel free to message me. I'd be glad to help out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinian Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Like all other competitive metas, nothing should be banned before extensive playtesting. FE is by nature a little more luck-based than Pokemon, but FE also provides all sorts of ways to mitigate weaknesses to these luck-based strategies. If a certain strategy becomes overcentralizing (like 50+% Lethality builds are likely to be), then people will find ways to deal with these strategies. Imo one good reason to ban something is if the only answer to a certain threat ends up being to have that threat yourself. For instance, I envision Counter being a really fucking cheap skill that would be optimal to have on every single unit, and the only real counter to Counter is to have your own Counter. But again, it should only be banned if it ends up being dominant to the point that units literally only have 4 skills to choose from (like a Limit Breaker situation in Awakening) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTakara82 Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 It could be something simple that everyone can abide by. Like for instance, no logbook abuse, only use the characters you have on your file, and the skills they gain from their natural classes and spouse classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachmac Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) If you gotta ban somethin' . . . Ban the DLC~. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that. I don't like banning things, but I also don't like forcing people to pay extra to participate fairly. Or we could simply say skills that character can learn naturally only.(Basically only skills that the unit has access to without Marriage sealing, Buddy sealing, Dread Scrolls, Falcon Feathers etc...) I don't like this idea. Not only would it limit creative options, it'd also make certain characters clearly better then others thanks to superior, individual class sets. Let's not forget second generation characters, who's secondary class can be manipulated based on their mother(or father, in Shigure/M!Kanna's case). Like all other competitive metas, nothing should be banned before extensive playtesting. This is extremely important. We need to all remember this. Edited July 11, 2015 by Zachmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinian Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Rules and banlists are not the same thing. Rules are general conditions according to which everyone agrees to play right off the bat. Banlists include specific individual things that would normally be allowed under the rules, but are picked out to be banned for one reason or another. A basic set of rules that I think everyone can agree to is basically what OP said. Only use characters that are naturally recruited on your file, no buying units or skills from Logbook/MyCastle. Kamui will still get access to almost every class, but all other characters will be limited to a maximum of 4 or 5 class trees. Children still have the potential to get via inheritance up to 2 skills they can't get normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachmac Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Not counting the "My Castle" stages, there are 5 stages we can play online. Should we implement a stage striking system? If each player bans two stages before each battle, only one stage will be left unbanned. Or should it be randomized or something? A basic set of rules that I think everyone can agree to is basically what OP said. Only use characters that are naturally recruited on your file, no buying units or skills from Logbook/MyCastle. Kamui will still get access to almost every class, but all other characters will be limited to a maximum of 4 or 5 class trees. Children still have the potential to get via inheritance up to 2 skills they can't get normally. Bought units can't support with other characters, so they'd be at a disadvantage anyway. Why should we illegalize them? Also, why is it so important that we can't buy skills? I don't see much of a point to that rule. If it's about accessibility, I don't think that'll be a problem, since you can connect to other player's castles online(or so I've heard). Unnecessary rules are no better unnecessary bans. Edited July 11, 2015 by Zachmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bovinian Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Not counting the "My Castle" stages, there are 5 stages we can play online. Should we implement a stage striking system? If each player bans two stages before each battle, only one stage will be left unbanned. Or should it be randomized or something? Bought units can't support with other characters, so they'd be at a disadvantage anyway. Why should we illegalize them? Also, why is it so important that we can't buy skills? I don't see much of a point to that rule. If it's about accessibility, I don't think that'll be a problem, since you can connect to other player's castles online(or so I've heard). Unnecessary rules are no better unnecessary bans. Yeah my reasoning was mostly grounded in the accessibility problem. Even if connecting to other player's castles online is super easy, you still need to find a team with the exact unit you need with the exact skill you're trying to get, and repeat this process for all of your otherwise unobtainable skills. Maybe in the future there will be some sort of repository where people can get access to literally every possible unit/skill combination, but before that happens, it wouldn't be fair to everyone. And even if this does become possible, I think some people will still appreciate having another separate meta where not every unit can get access to every possible skill at the same time, and having it coexist with an "anything goes" meta. You might view them as unnecessary rules, but the mindset is similar to why Ubers is not the only meta that people play in competitive Pokemon. Different metas allow different types of strategies to become viable, as long as the rules are well enforced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachmac Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Ah, I guess I can get where you're coming from. Smogon never cared about accessibility, though. 31/0/31/31/31/31 Chanseys with Wish are pretty much nonexistent without hacking, and yet they're still 100% legal. But I suppose the reason Smogon doesn't care about accessibility is because of battle simulators, and I suppose that we don't exactly have to mimic Smogon in every regard. What matters is how much we care about accessibility. I suppose I'll put up with those skill restrictions in the early metagame so long as we get a metagame without said restrictions somewhere down the road. I'll back off for now. Assuming the majority agrees with those restrictions, of course. That's what really matters. Edited July 11, 2015 by Zachmac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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