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Fixing Fates story issues (spoilers)

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If we're going to suggest better warrants for Suzukaze to hang around Kamui in the Nohr Path then we should nail down WHAT conflict the Nohr Path focuses on. The actual Nohr Path doesn't have Kamui try to remove Garon until after Aqua pops up with her convenient crystal ball that conveniently reveals Fake Garon before conveniently breaking. Kamui proceeds to help mow over Hoshido for Fake Garon to sit on its throne. Despite being hyped up pre-release as being a tale of reforming a belligerent kingdom, Conquest doesn't do a good job as such.

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The reason for why I think Silas should still side with Hoshido, is the fact that in his support with Kagerou, Silas mention that his parents seem to be friendly towards Hoshidans, so for example, Silas's parents could be Crimson's allies. That would give him reason to side with Hoshido.

Really, while I'm one the few here that really wasn't dissapointed by Fates's story, even I think that the neutral characters deserved more focus, like Silas could face consequeces for siding with Hoshido, such as having his parents executed, which could make question his reasons for siding with Kamui.

Silas just seems... kinda there to me, too. I actually liked Felicia and Suzukaze and thought Joker had a decent reason for following Kamui at the least, even if I don't particularly care for his character, but Silas really doesn't hold well. Maybe there's something in his support somewhere (and if someone knows, I'd love to hear it!), but he doesn't intrigue me enough as a character for me to rifle through them. He does get some in-game dialogue on both routes though, so there's that, which is a lot more than recruitable units usually get in a FE game.

Kinda forgetting about their army members (beyond exposition-ing) once they join is kinda just an FE issue, honestly. It's... a little better in Fates (or Nohr at least) because you've got a larger core group of important characters that actually sometimes talk about something other than where to go next and backstory, but everyone outside of them is reeeeally unimportant, so it kinda balances. Awakening/Fates making lesser use of personalized boss dialogue doesn't help anything either.

Edit: The Nohr path is consistently Garon vs. Kamui conflict. Just because she's not actively overthrowing him from the start doesn't mean they're not in conflict.

Edited by artishe

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If we're going to suggest better warrants for Suzukaze to hang around Kamui in the Nohr Path then we should nail down WHAT conflict the Nohr Path focuses on. The actual Nohr Path doesn't have Kamui try to remove Garon until after Aqua pops up with her convenient crystal ball that conveniently reveals Fake Garon before conveniently breaking. Kamui proceeds to help mow over Hoshido for Fake Garon to sit on its throne. Despite being hyped up pre-release as being a tale of reforming a belligerent kingdom, Conquest doesn't do a good job as such.

Well, if 60-80% of Conquest is about revolutionizing within Nohr like expected, there shouldn't be any difficulty justifying any Hoshidan character who would want to help out, because that feels pretty natural. Hell, I wasn't even surprised when one of the Famitsu article (mistakenly) marked that Mikoto is an ally in both routes. (Though the fact that they did the same for Garon did raise my eyebrows...)

Edited by Ryo

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Silas just seems... kinda there to me, too. I actually liked Felicia and Suzukaze and thought Joker had a decent reason for following Kamui at the least, even if I don't particularly care for his character, but Silas really doesn't hold well. Maybe there's something in his support somewhere (and if someone knows, I'd love to hear it!), but he doesn't intrigue me enough as a character for me to rifle through them. He does get some in-game dialogue on both routes though, so there's that, which is a lot more than recruitable units usually get in a FE game.

Kinda forgetting about their army members (beyond exposition-ing) once they join is kinda just an FE issue, honestly. It's... a little better in Fates (or Nohr at least) because you've got a larger core group of important characters that actually sometimes talk about something other than where to go next and backstory, but everyone outside of them is reeeeally unimportant, so it kinda balances. Awakening/Fates making lesser use of personalized boss dialogue doesn't help anything either.

Edit: The Nohr path is consistently Garon vs. Kamui conflict.

I actually really like Silas as a character.

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Edit: The Nohr path is consistently Garon vs. Kamui conflict. Just because she's not actively overthrowing him from the start doesn't mean they're not in conflict.

Kamui repeatedly doesn't rein in Ganz with Macbeth and takes part in the invasion of Hoshido. Fake Garon isn't interesting or imposing enough to be fixated on as an enemy either.

Edited by Alazen

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I actually really like Silas as a character.

Ahhh, I guess I just wrote him away as childhood friend, generic good-guy character at the start, which is are two tropes I'm kinda meh on to begin with. In plot, he can be kinda hit or miss for me, but it usually depends on how hard they're playing the childhood friend/good guy angle.

It also doesn't help that I don't really like it when games with pairing mechanics push certain ships at you. Since I usually play as a girl and can actually marry him, it feels like the game kinda shoves Silas (and Joker, too) down my throat as a marriage option, what with all the tropes they check off. Never really liked Chrom for the same reason, actually.

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Kamui repeatedly doesn't rein in Ganz with Macbeth and takes part in the invasion of Hoshido. Garon isn't an interesting or effective foe either.

Kamui does try to get Ganz and Macbeth to back off, but he/she gets overruled because they are under Garon's orders. Last time I checked a King outclasses a prince/princess.

Edited by Monado Boy

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Kamui repeatedly doesn't rein in Ganz with Macbeth and takes part in the invasion of Hoshido. Garon isn't interesting or imposing enough to be fixated on as an enemy either.

Kamui does try to get Ganz and Macbeth to back off, but he/she gets overruled because they are under Garon's orders. Last time I checked a King outclasses a prince/princess.

They heavily establish Garon is the supreme power in the first chapter of the Nohr route, and the game reinforces this a lot, especially really close to the invasion chapter, with Ganz at Chevalier giving you another additional reminder and the siblings' 'if we don't do what Father tells us, he will kill us' dialogue across multiple chapters.

And once again, just because Kamui isn't directly trading physical blows with Garon doesn't mean they aren't in conflict. There's a rather long, over-arching struggle between the two that you can trace all the way back to the first chapter of the Nohr route when he sends Kamui off to the Ice Tribe. Their main struggle is over his desire to bring Kamui to despair, which he blatantly states is his motivation for sending her on these tasks, and it culminates in Ryouma's suicide, with Kamui crying over his dead body, not the person she was before.

As for the invasion of Hoshido, it comes all of a few chapters after Kamui begins lying to Garon about cooperating with him. She even tells Aqua that she's decided to play along as it's her best option. There's build up to this in the chapters before, most specifically Leon's chapter with the dancers, where he explains to her that lying will save the dancers from being murdered and that this is how he disobeys his father. They even get the whole 'Hero of Nohr' blessing right afterwards, which is pretty much a seal of approval.

Whether or not you find Garon interesting/imposing is more personal than anything else. Honestly, I thought he was generic big bad guy and that the Nohr route was a little weak on interesting enemies (unless you maybe want to count the Hoshidan royalty), but the conflicts themselves were interesting.

Edited by artishe

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Garon being so fixated on Kamui also demonstrates both how flat Fake Garon is as a character and how the narrative twists itself to revolve around Kamui.

And Kamui still carries out Aqua's plan which has them aid in invading Hoshido so that Nohr's king can sit on its throne. How far do I need to go to point out how ridiculous that is?

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And Kamui still carries out Aqua's plan which has them aid in invading Hoshido so that Nohr's king can sit on its throne. How far do I need to go to point out how ridiculous that is?

Kamui doesn't really have any other options. They can't return to Hoshido, as they've alienated them by betraying them, and the Hoshidans are paranoid of all people with ties to Nohr. If Ryouma couldn't prevent Aqua from being captured, how did you think the Hoshidans would react when the traitorous prince/princess suddenly returns? Telling the siblings isn't really an option either, as Marx would accuse Kamui of betrayal without absolute proof, that Kamui doesn't have. If chapter 26 of Hoshido is any indication, Marx is much stronger than Kamui even late into the game, and would quickly stomp them.

Kamui has screwed himself/herself into a point where pretending to go along with Garon is their best option.

Edited by Monado Boy

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Kamui could have shown the Nohr siblings Fake Garon using the crystal ball, avoiding the conquering Hoshido part... OH WAIT IT BROKE!

Yeah, we have a problem when a character pops up with an obvious solution to what is apparently a serious problem that is contrived into not working.

Edited by Alazen

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Hey, this could work even in the main game: The Hoshidan troops are indiscriminate between Nohrian invaders and Nohrian civilians/other people. But obviously they're too afraid too paint Hoshido in a grayer shade... for some reasons. I kinda like this idea because while it still keeps the theme that some people would ally with you no matter what, but their decisions are based on the (variable) situation at hand and their own thinking, not because "I HAVE SWORN LOYALTY TO KAMUI-SAMA!!!! NONE OPPOSING MY LORD SHALL LIVE!!!!"

If you don't mind sharing, how are you going to handle other people's defection, like say... Felicia? That's also a fanatic fangirl of Kamui-sama right there. I personally have given up on salvaging her character.

In my story, only her, Aqua (not a princess but a wandering songstress who isn't aware of her origin), Gunter (who doesn't fall into IK), and perhaps Ashura would follow you on all routes. Gunter because he has a personal grudge against Garon (as revealed in the game). Izana only joins in IK for being truly neutral (does not die there). I replaced Silas with Inigo as Marx's retainer, so while he still retains his friendship with Kamui, he can't outright betray his liege/country due to his position. Same goes with Suzukaze, who doesn't have a particular master but still serves the Hoshidan royal family as a whole. These two would only assist Kamui in some trivial/filler stuffs that's not directly detrimental to their country, and that's all about it. I made it so that just like with the two sets of siblings, if you choose a close childhood friend you would lose out a chance to interact with someone who could've become your loyal retainer, and vice versa, so that's another layer of relationship. I also made people who are "inherently" obsessed with Kamui like Camilla have something better to do, like make her the former lover of Ryoma (who still have feeling for each other but had to break up due to the war and their position).

Here are the changes I've made so far for Nohr

[spoiler=Changes]

Aqua is now a minor character who is introduced earlier.

Kamui was never locked up so he is more knowledgeable of Nohrian society and the world. S/he is merciful when able but less naive than before. He is still heavily guarded, however.

Kamui is 4 when he is kidnapped. And 14 years have passed since then.

Kamui is still friends with Silas and didn't forget him.

Flora and Felicia have been consolidated into a single character.

Odin is replaced with Ophelia and she and Zero are now mercenaries hired by Leon.

Charlotte and Benoit are now Leon's subordinates.

Lazwald and Luna have no connection to Awakening.

Nosfertatu don't exist and are replaced with bandit attacks.

As there are no instant marriages or 2nd generation.

Lilith, Eponine, Soleil, Foleo, Lutz, Sophie, Shigure and Odin have been cut.

Anna, Midoriko, Mozume, Deere and Kana are the only characters recruited in paralogues.

3rd route and Hydra has been cut.

To answer the question about Felicia, I fixed her problem by... removing her! She seems redundant with Flora and is just there for the moe maid archetype. In the story, Flora and Joker will be your attendants, with Joker joining you at the start regardless of your gender. You will go to the Ice Village early in the story, the same as the current Nohr route but afterwords you will recruit Flora, who will join you as thanks for sparing her people and for forgiving her for her betrayal (something that Kamui can sympathize with considering the choice he just had to make).

I'm currently working on a rewrite of Nohr so I don't have plans for why the Nohrian characters would side with you in Hoshido (muh loyalty) but here's the gist of who sides with you in Nohr. Silas is now your childhood friend (that you didn't forget) who is a knight in service of a new character called Lord Ackerman. Ackerman is friendly with Kamui so he entrusts Silas to your care. Joker stands by you out of loyalty and Gunter is killed when he falls into the Infinite Chasm. Aqua is probably the most changed because she's just the daughter of a Nohrian chieftain who was taken in as a political hostage(You fight her and her father in instead of Suzukaze and Rinka). You spare them and she serves you out of gratitude in Nohr, or to escape Nohr in Hoshido.

Suzukaze is as I described but you recruit him later (now Ashura is recruited first), after Hoshido has already been defeated.

You have it backwards: Silas is from Nohr and switches sides in the Hoshido campaign, not the Nohr campaign.

I was talking about Suzukaze.

Well, to be fair, Silas doesn't seem to have had any friends before joining Kamui, his supports with Elise and Camilla seems to imply that he's actually really lonely, and craves affection from others.

Dammit, I started posting in this thread telling people to stop complaining about the story, and yet, here I am, complaining about the story and trying to rewrite it...

There's reason why I avoided this thread, I knew I wouldn't be able to resist writing a fanfic.

My inner fanfiction writer is turning me into a hypocrite, godammit!

*sneaks up behind you and grabs your shoulders*

Shhh, just let it happen.

Edited by NekoKnight

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Kamui doesn't really have any other options. They can't return to Hoshido, as they've alienated them by betraying them, and the Hoshidans are paranoid of all people with ties to Nohr. If Ryouma couldn't prevent Aqua from being captured, how did you think the Hoshidans would react when the traitorous prince/princess suddenly returns? Telling the siblings isn't really an option either, as Marx would accuse Kamui of betrayal without absolute proof, that Kamui doesn't have. If chapter 26 of Hoshido is any indication, Marx is much stronger than Kamui even late into the game, and would quickly stomp them.

Kamui has screwed himself/herself into a point where pretending to go along with Garon is their best option.

They do have another option though, right from the beginning. Which is the entirety of the third route, and Aqua knew about that all along. However, the Nohr path and Nohr!Aqua established that the only way to stop the war is to kill Slime Garon, even though that's clearly not true. She withhold everything from Kamui for absolutely no reason.

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Aqua was drunk in either Nohr or IK. She either forgot she knew everything or remembered that she knew everything.

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They do have another option though, right from the beginning. Which is the entirety of the third route, and Aqua knew about that all along. However, the Nohr path and Nohr!Aqua established that the only way to stop the war is to kill Slime Garon, even though that's clearly not true. She withhold everything from Kamui for absolutely no reason.

But how could there be a Golden Ending you can only access through DLC or the Special Edition if Aqua went and told about Hydra?

Edited by Alazen

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But how could there be a Golden Ending you can only access through DLC or the Special Edition?

By rewriting it, but obviously IS doesn't care enough.

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Garon being so fixated on Kamui also demonstrates both how flat Fake Garon is as a character and how the narrative twists itself to revolve around Kamui.

And Kamui still carries out Aqua's plan which has them aid in invading Hoshido so that Nohr's king can sit on its throne. How far do I need to go to point out how ridiculous that is?

Like I said, I didn't find Garon an interesting character either. Unfortunately, in a game like FE you can't flesh out everyone, and consistently putting barebones work into their enemy units is a common issue in the series. As for the narrative twisting itself around Kamui, the narrative is a character driven plot, and that's simply... what a character driven plot can end up looking like. A character driven plot isn't bad writing in and of itself, though the game definitely suffers from poor execution in a few parts and other instances of bad writing. If you don't like Kamui, though, you probably aren't going to like it. That doesn't mean the plot is poorly written (though it definitely is in some parts), and there's no such thing as a plot that satisfies everyone, nor should anyone try to write such a thing.

Kamui could have shown the Nohr siblings Fake Garon using the crystal ball, avoiding the conquering Hoshido part... OH WAIT IT BROKE!

Yeah, we have a problem when a character pops up with an obvious solution to what is apparently a serious problem that is contrived into not working.

And this would be a great example of some of the poor writing. But, aside from being caused by this contrivance, that Kamui then has to follow along with the invasion is not. Just because a certain point in a story is badly written, it doesn't render all the writing after it badly written as well.

Edited by artishe

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They do have another option though, right from the beginning. Which is the entirety of the third route, and Aqua knew about that all along. However, the Nohr path and Nohr!Aqua established that the only way to stop the war is to kill Slime Garon, even though that's clearly not true. She withhold everything from Kamui for absolutely no reason.

Aqua's the problem here. I think Kamui's actions were reasonable with the information that they had, but Aqua's actions here is one of my issues with Fates' plot. The only possible explanation is that she thought that given the current situation they wouldn't be able to ever gain the support of the Hoshidans so getting rid of Garon would be easier, and even that's a suspect reasoning at best.

Gah, just making sure it's clear, my problem with this part is Aqua's actions. I found Kamui's decision to make sense, given the information they had.

Edited by Monado Boy

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Well, hopefully the gameplay will be enjoyable enough for me to override all these negativity... I could survive FE10 and FE13, I can probably do the same with Fates... Ugh...

I'm not even sure which path I'll purchase anymore. Buying all three seems like a big waste of money, but neither seems like a completely satisfying experience either. This is my impression basing on what I've observed:

Hoshido: Gameplay: meh; story: okay

Nohr: Gameplay: SEXUALLY GRATIFYING very well-designed; story:.......

IK: Gameplay: disappointing (but best path for post-game); story: meh

:facepalm:

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And this would be a great example of some of the poor writing. But, aside from being caused by this contrivance, that Kamui then has to follow along with the invasion is not. Just because a certain point in a story is badly written, it doesn't render all the writing after it badly written as well.

It actually does as the specific part in question has a negative effect on the plot thereafter. The problem with that plot point is that it causes Kamui and Aqua to push the Nohrian war efforts with Hoshido, slaughtering who knows how many innocent lives in the process, just to sit Garon on the throne to prove who he is. That by itself is already a horrible extreme to go to, and it gets worse from there once you start taking into account more of the plot elements. That whole scenario was completely avoidable as at least two options existed that would've fixed the issue of Garon without going to that extreme, such as Aqua telling Kamui everything about IK and thus exposing Anankos' plot that would leave both countries in ruins. So not only was the more logical solution ignored, they caused a lot of unnecessary collateral damage and sacrificed many lives (including two people held near and dear to Kamui and Aqua) rather pointlessly.

So from what one bad moment of writing, it cascaded into becoming something far worse for the plot as a whole. Kamui and Aqua do so much harm to everyone around them, especially to the people they care about, and it didn't even have to happen. That is bad writing, and when combined with Nohr's other problems, it completely bogs down what could've been a great story.

Edited by Medeus

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And let's not forget how after Hoshido is conquered Kamui's living Hoshido siblings are all apparently chummy with him even though he helped to conquer their kingdom, and Hinoka excuses him for the deaths of two brothers. Along with how the final Chapter has Ghost Takumi go on about how he was wrong to act how he did towards Kamui.

Even as an invader Kamui can't be vilified.

Edited by Alazen

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I'm not even sure which path I'll purchase anymore. Buying all three seems like a big waste of money, but neither seems like a completely satisfying experience either. This is my impression basing on what I've observed:

Hoshido: Gameplay: meh; story: okay

Nohr: Gameplay: SEXUALLY GRATIFYING very well-designed; story:.......

IK: Gameplay: disappointing (but best path for post-game); story: meh

:facepalm:

Pick the path that has the most characters you like. I have the Japanese version of Hoshido and the IK, but I'm not touching Nohr until it comes out in English. And even then, I changed my mind about getting all three versions. Rather, I'm going to get physical English Hoshido and switch off with a friend who's getting physical English Nohr. We planned this out in advance.

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Kamui could have shown the Nohr siblings Fake Garon using the crystal ball, avoiding the conquering Hoshido part... OH WAIT IT BROKE!

Yeah, we have a problem when a character pops up with an obvious solution to what is apparently a serious problem that is contrived into not working.

To be honest it would make next to no difference if the Crystal Ball didnt break. It's not like she could tell them how and where she got it or why they should believe it, it could potentially have caused more trouble than the crystal ball breaking(if it was accused of being a Hoshido trick).

Edited by arvilino

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All of this mess could have been avoided if she just dragged Kamui and the siblings to IK from the beginning and explain to them everything she knew, including Anankos.

Edited by Ryo

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