Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[Draco]

None here. Go for it.

[euklyd]

i think we need to spend a week by itself discussing pit vs dark pit

get down to the real nitty gritty

Pit vs Dark Pit

ftilt (40 vs 15 BKB, Pit's favor), arrows (Pit's are more maneuverable, DPit's are stronger), sideb (Pit's is 80°, DPit's is 50° and .5% stronger), and final smash

boom done

Merging Marth/Lucina etc?

SO that would account for just them and Pit/Dank Pit and Mario/Doc?

Any objections?

Marth and Lucina have essentially the same frame data with different KB and %s, Pit and Dark Pit are even closer.

Mario and Dr. Mario are more different, but I'm not sure how much more... For one thing, they have very different character properties (movement speed, etc.)

But otoh most of their moves have identical frame data and just different strengths (KB, angles, and %s)...

Completely different downbs tho.

Could we get actual Mario / Doc mains to weigh in here?

Edited August 17, 2015 by Euklyd

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Samus

Jump-&-ShootMan (Ehh. Megaman)

Edited August 17, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[euklyd]

Samus

Jump-&-ShootMan (Ehh. Megaman)

your red paint is acting up; should look into that

also I would like to put forward Pikachu as my second vote

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I made it Orange... on purpose. Haha. Evil laugh. not really. #Yolo.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Great Geargia Gateway

[Tamarsamar]

Charizard

Mii Swordfighter

Write what you know, right?

[~Silver]

Could we get actual Mario / Doc mains to weigh in here?

I secondary Doc.

Mario is certainly more easy to combo with, due to his deceased knockback with his standard moves. Doc's down throw MIGHT be able to get some stuff off depending on the opponent's DI, but most of the time you're lucky to get a nair in. And that's not much, mind you.

But I'd have to argue they're, between all three sets of clones (Lucina/Marth, Pit/Dank Pit, Mario/Doc) Dr. Mario and Mario have the biggest changes.

Doc has Dr. Tornado for one, and he really relies on it due to his awful recovery. I don't know statistics, but I believe he does fall faster than Mario, so yes, Dr. Tornado is a godsend.

Other than that, Doc has a hard time killing in my opinion. He suffers from his slow speed and lag on his finishers, with Up Smash and even his Up Special dangerous in most situations. His cape doesn't stall him in the air, Dr. Tornado isn't as good as Luigi's as it doesn't reliably kill, (this is in part because it's more horizontal, not vertical) and his Up-Smash sends foes at an angle that's easier to DI out of...

I hope I summarized him up correctly.... Sorry if I missed anything, or I'm just plain wrong.

[Jedi]

Current Votes are

Five Votes

Shulk

Three Votes

Sheik

Two Votes

Peach

Palutena

Megaman

One Vote

Fox

Sonic

Mario/Doc

Zelda

Ganondorf

Wii Fit Trainer

Mii Brawler

Mii Swordfighter

Charizard

Samus

Pac-Man

Wario

Ike

Luigi

Marth/Lucina

Edited August 17, 2015 by Jedi

[Elieson]

Samus

Pale Tuna D3

Edited August 17, 2015 by Elieson

[General Horace]

dedede and dk

[Knight]

Super Fighting Robot

and

Pokemon #006

So Charizard and Megaman.

[Anacybele]

Huh, didn't know Shulk was that popular here...

Would've enjoyed seeing Ike talk or Luigi talk after what I've been through recently, but this is supposed to be voted on. And I don't want to look like I'm just using my situation to worm favors out of people. xP

[Knight]

Shulk's one of the most interesting ones to talk about since his Monado Arts give him a lot of variables.

[Anacybele]

That's true. I still haven't figured out which art is which on the screen, lol

[Tsunami922]

That's true. I still haven't figured out which art is which on the screen, lol

It should you tell right above his picture at the bottom.

[Anacybele]

It should you tell right above his picture at the bottom.

...Oh. Well I feel silly now. :P

[Jedi]

Nomination 1 is complete. The topic of discussion until further notice is Shulk

"Behold the power of the Monado!"

Origin: Xenoblade Chronicles for the Wii (Also available on the NEW 3DS, and I think EU Wii U virtual console)

Year: 2010

Developer: Monolith Soft

Japanese VA: Shintaro Asanuma

English VA: Adam Howden

Frame Data: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Shulk

Random Smash Attentions to detail (RSATD): While the Monado didn't change color when Shulk uses Air Slash and Backslash in Xenoblade, this is to reference what type of arts they are in Xenoblade, with Pink (Air Slash) being a Breaker Art which allowed for a Topple. And Red (Backslash) being a damage art which is exactly what it says on the tin. Also all the Monado art symbols are accurate to the game, although Smash wasn't a Monado Art, that was purely made for Smash 4.

So guys, have at it with Shulk discussion. I myself find him to be a very interesting and fun character (one of my personal favorites to play as actually), his Art system allows him to be alot of different things and his reach is really really good, with solid grabs, aerials and attacks, however his frame data (speed and lag on his moves). Needs a fair bit of work before I'd consider him a super good contender, but I'd easily place him in the higher mid tiers due to just versatility. Feel free to ask Shulk related questions in terms of moveset, MU's (Matchups, not My Unit), anything you can think of, or heck just explain why you like playing as the guy or hate fighting him etc. I'd have more to say, but I'm tired at the mo x.x

P.S Play Xenoblade its a grand game.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Jedi

[Terrador]

Anyone think Shulk has any one-sided matchups, one way or the other? I could see Shulk vs. Ganondorf as 70:30 or something for Shulk, seeing as Shulk just walls the poor dude out effortlessly, but... what about matchups that matter??

[euklyd]

SHITTY FRAME DATA MAKE SHULK MAINS CRY

Shulk is one of those characters that have a lot of amaaaazing assets (massive disjoint, good power, monado arts buffing recovery, combos/damage output, speed, etc.), but will likely never edge into "top tier" simply because of the massive startup on literally all his moves

his nair, fair, and bair all eat projectiles nicely and cover large arcs, but they're all so slow that vs a character like sheik, shulk can't get hits in fast enough to avoid being combo'd to death

and iirc his weight / fall speed are perfect to make him the definition of combo food

that being said he likely has solid matchups vs slower characters without as much disjoint, like ike, or slower characters without approach options, like kirby

the shulk boards seem to think he has a good MU vs link, the link boards seem to have had their competent players ignore their thread on the matter. as a link, I personally have a lot of issues with shulks properly using their speed or jump arts to run through the cracks in my projectile spam, but admittedly I don't have a great projectile spam game

it'd be nice if more seasoned players on either side could weigh in

@Jedi - could you add the frame data pages on KuroganeHammer to the character posts? like Shulk's

[Tamarsamar]

Shulk definitely has the Kirby matchup . . . so long as Kirby never gets ahold of Monado Arts. Easily one of the top 3 scariest specials a Kirby can copy.

Shulk in general: Speed Art is generally used as a better Buster Art, as while your damage per hit goes down, you can pile it on much faster while not being vulnerable to increased damage yourself. Use Buster after Speed in your neutral approach, especially if you can Monado Arts cancel your aerial landing lag. Jump Art is amazing in any state that isn't neutral. Smash Art is Smash Art (particularly notorious for granting lethal Visions, even without access to Power Vision). I have never seen Shield Art used for anything other than durdling unproductively.

Vision is a good Counter variant. If you augment it with Smash Art or inputting the direction of the incoming attack (while on the ground), it becomes a shockingly reliable KO move for a Counter. (And this is before we even get into something like Power Vision!)

Backslash is silly. Basically don't use it unless you want to cancel your momentum and get the hardest of reads at the same time. In general it's just not a reliable move, no matter how much newer Shulks are really feeling it.

How I see the Shulk matchup with my characters:

Yoshi: Shulk gets eaten up by eggs, massively dissonant frame data, and in some cases, literally by Yoshi himself. Similar to Ike, just be careful not to get read and you'll be fine. Of course, look for openings to exploit weaknesses in Monado Arts not named Speed.

Charizard: Shulk's massive range make approaching with Flamethrower somewhat chancy; that being said, if Shulk decides he wants to sanic into you, giving him a face full of fire should burn him out. Exploit your grab range and punish any end-lag he incurs; punish with attacks only if you're absolutely sure you're safe from Vision. If you see an up-tilt string in your future, give Shulk a face full of rock to get him to stop that. His recovery is mad readable--if you can get him far enough off stage, a properly-timed down-air will sink both the Monado Boy and his hopes.

Robin: Spacing spacing spacing. Never get into a sword fight with Shulk if you can avoid it. As always, let him come to you. Try to intercept him with Arcfire/your custom of choice. If he's bad and gets further into your personal space than he really should, Wind Jab and down-throw strings are applicable punishes, or even Nosferatu in extreme situations. The range of the Monado vs. the Levin Sword puts Shulk at a massive advantage in the air, even with his huge startups. Robin's aerials are scarier to be hit by, but you'll need to combo into them one way or another. Probably the toughest matchup listed so far, but very doable if you're the more patient player.

Mii Swordfighter: A harder matchup than Robin; Monado Boy has, like, twice your range, and at any given time does any one thing better than you. At least your aerials are much faster, though, so it is possible to catch him off guard. Milk every last drop out of your projectile moves. Your Counter is more "spammable" than his, so try to get a read on when he tries to get the drop on you (not recommended vs. Speed Art, like, at all). Victory is possible if you can punish mistakes, but this is not a matchup I like at all.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Tamarsamar

[~Silver]

All I know, is that Shulk suffers from terrible frame data. I've rarely seen Shulk matchs, but when I do, it involves them spacing out their opponents with their air-game, most of the time they always back up using these moves from being pressured so much with projectiles and such.

But because Shulk suffers from a lack of a quick ariel, when he is comboed, he has a difficult time DI'ing.

EDIT: Ooh, ooh! Can I try to do hypothetical matchups with my mains?

Edited August 18, 2015 by ~Silver

[Comet]

I'm just going to leave this here.

[Great Geargia Gateway]

There's always some sort of laggy thing that Shulk has going (Or not going) for him. They're either slow to get the move started or just come out fast and end too freggin slow. One miss, blocked attack, will get you punished. Especially when you go for a Back-Air but you don't even throw it out because you hit the floor just at the moment, and then you're stuck in land-lag. If you're Shulk. F-Air's and Grabs for days.

[Jedi]

Shulk definitely has the Kirby matchup . . . so long as Kirby never gets ahold of Monado Arts. Easily one of the top 3 scariest specials a Kirby can copy.

Shulk in general: Speed Art is generally used as a better Buster Art, as while your damage per hit goes down, you can pile it on much faster while not being vulnerable to increased damage yourself. Use Buster after Speed in your neutral approach, especially if you can Monado Arts cancel your aerial landing lag. Jump Art is amazing in any state that isn't neutral. Smash Art is Smash Art (particularly notorious for granting lethal Visions, even without access to Power Vision). I have never seen Shield Art used for anything other than durdling unproductively.

Shield has been used in some instances for time outs, because Shulk becomes one of the heaviest characters in the game and can shield alot more then most characters can. Imo Buster is really good if you are super good at reading your foe, but I'd probably never use it vs like Sheik and Fox. I'd also say Backslash since the last patch has thankfully been made somewhat more viable of a move considering its now faster startup.

Also something to note vs Yoshi is that all of Shulk's aerials can cancel out eggs. You just gotta know when to start up.

I'm just going to leave this here.

Handy thanks. Gotta try this out sometime, it'll probably help my Shulk game loads.

EDIT: Ooh, ooh! Can I try to do hypothetical matchups with my mains?

Go for it. Although some people may correct you if they use Shulk.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Jedi

[Dotty]

I have never seen Shield Art used for anything other than durdling unproductively.

Backslash is silly. Basically don't use it unless you want to cancel your momentum and get the hardest of reads at the same time. In general it's just not a reliable move, no matter how much newer Shulks are really feeling it.

I'm pretty sure Shield has a number of useful applications. As well as reducing damage (even more so while crouching), it also makes your shield much more durable and is can get you out of some characters' combos (though it can have the reverse effect too, unfortunately). Oh, and apparently it works really well with Advancing Air Slash.

Back Slash got a pretty big buff in the last patch, so it's actually useful now. The hitbox comes out a lot sooner, so it can do a bunch of things like safely beat projectiles and catch people's rolls. It covers most ledge getup options pretty well too.

Also, Buster!BThrow > Back Slash is pretty legit.