Jump to content
ghast

Tharja: How Awakening Made a Good, Bad Character. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #14]

Recommended Posts

Hey folks! So here, I'll be linking my new Youtube Fire Emblem series. Tentatively called "Support Science"

It's pretty straightforward. It's a review/top list/critical analysis of my favorite supports for any particular character in Fire Emblem.

The first video is about Azura! Take a look!

 

Edited by ghast

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You really went above and beyond with this one.

Personally I never really read too much into supports as I probably just got the duds on my first run through the game. The only character I really tried to get all of the support for was Arthur, just because how funny they were. After

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You really went above and beyond with this one.

Personally I never really read too much into supports as I probably just got the duds on my first run through the game. The only character I really tried to get all of the support for was Arthur, just because how funny they were. After

thanks for watching!

I enjoyed Arthur and Azura's support. But i left it out because I felt it was much more important to Arthur than her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here, i discuss whether or not Camilla is mentally ill, and use her supports as evidence to my theory.

spoiler for after you watch

Of course, this is all conjecture, and i could just be trying to make sense of things that weren't intended to be thought about. It could very well be that Camilla is just a Yandere because its anime. But that isn't as fun as coming up with theories and whatnot.

hope ya like it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't call her mentally ill, but rather mentally scarred.

Being one of the oldest, or perhaps the oldest of Garon's bastard children, Camilla probably had to endure a lot of things.

Edited by Water Mage

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good job Ghast. I enjoyed this video.

I personally always thought she might have a mental disorder/be mentally scarred, I wouldn't especially think of the "Yandere" because anime, because it seems she's written... a bit specifically in a certain way, for it to be that, but that's just what I think.

All in all, I do like her.
But I feel for some people, doing things like this and theorizing and examining characters more deeply makes people like them more.

At least it does for me.

I think it would be interesting if you did more of these types of videos analyzing characters, for some of the more controversial characters in this game.

That's my input.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm making this comment before watching your second one, but I really enjoyed the Azura video. I enjoyed it so much that I'm going to subscribe to keep up.

I will admit I was hoping Arthur/Azura was your first pick, but I do understand what you mean that it develops Arthur much more than it does the songstress. Also, I was one who thought the Sakura/Azura support was somewhat OOC, but I see it much different now. Plus, the fact that you didn't outright write off Hayato as a Ricken copy impressed me. I do appreciate that you decided to explore Azura; I, admittedly, am not a fan of her, but you were able to give me reason to look at her in a different, more understanding light.

EDIT: Holy shit, that Camilla video was . . . wild.

Edited by saisymbolic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm making this comment before watching your second one, but I really enjoyed the Azura video. I enjoyed it so much that I'm going to subscribe to keep up.

I will admit I was hoping Arthur/Azura was your first pick, but I do understand what you mean that it develops Arthur much more than it does the songstress. Also, I was one who thought the Sakura/Azura support was somewhat OOC, but I see it much different now. Plus, the fact that you didn't outright write off Hayato as a Ricken copy impressed me. I do appreciate that you decided to explore Azura; I, admittedly, am not a fan of her, but you were able to give me reason to look at her in a different, more understanding light.

He hints it's going to be a FE8 character, so I assume Duessel for.... reasons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here, i discuss whether or not Camilla is mentally ill, and use her supports as evidence to my theory.

spoiler for after you watch

Of course, this is all conjecture, and i could just be trying to make sense of things that weren't intended to be thought about. It could very well be that Camilla is just a Yandere because its anime. But that isn't as fun as coming up with theories and whatnot.

hope ya like it!

Good analysis. While her possessiveness and mother instinct is a reoccurring trait, I still think her obsession for Kamui to be the least "justified" part of her character (and what a large part that is). It's true that Kamui doesn't have parents but all of the children had bad mothers (besides Xander, maybe?) and Garon, who we know very little about before his transformation into Muk Nohrian Form. I could buy Camilla losing parts of her sanity in Birthright but her possessiveness persists even in Conquest where Kamui never leaves her side. It's also arguable that Camilla's feelings for Kamui are...not familial in nature, which also doesn't have much going to justify it. If anyone had reason to develop separation-anxiety, it would be Ryoma or Hinoka.

Generally I don't diagnose mental disorders in fictional characters but Camilla's possessiveness and threats of violence (in a My Room line, she mentions to the Avatar that she would kill him and then commit suicide if he ever left her) do not suggest a stable mental state.

Edit: It's probably worth mentioning that the American Camilla x Mamui support takes out a good deal of the incest subtext. In the Japanese one, Kamui is more uncomfortable about Camilla's unsisterly behavior (she keeps trying to get him to bathe with her) whereas the American conversation focuses more on how she infantilizes him.

Edited by NekoKnight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldn't call her mentally ill, but rather mentally scarred.

Being one of the oldest, or perhaps the oldest of Garon's bastard children, Camilla probably had to endure a lot of things.

"Mental scarring" often refers to mental illnesses, though, or rather, is the cause of them. "Mental illness" covers a much broader spectrum of things than what I'd imagine immediately comes to mind for many people. Like, psychosis and schizophrenia are both mental illnesses, but then, so are depression and anxiety. It doesn't have to be something that'd be immediately, glaringly noticeable in the person's behavior for it to qualify as mental illness, and even mental illnesses themselves tend to vary in how they're expressed, because people vary, and people are people before they're mentally ill.

I'd frankly be surprised if... a lot of the Nohrian characters didn't have some sort of mental illness, honestly. Camilla especially included.

Also, @NekoKnight, "mentally ill" doesn't necessarily mean "insane", although insanity does fall under the term. For instance, I am mentally ill, having both anxiety and depression, but I'm fairly certain I don't qualify as "insane" by any reasonable definition of the term. Characters don't need to be, like, Kefka Palazzo levels of unhinged in order to show unmistakable signs of mental illness in their behavior. That's a weirdly-specific stereotype of mentally ill people that's actually extremely rare in real life.

Edited by Topaz Light

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Mental scarring" often refers to mental illnesses, though, or rather, is the cause of them. "Mental illness" covers a much broader spectrum of things than what I'd imagine immediately comes to mind for many people. Like, psychosis and schizophrenia are both mental illnesses, but then, so are depression and anxiety. It doesn't have to be something that'd be immediately, glaringly noticeable in the person's behavior for it to qualify as mental illness, and even mental illnesses themselves tend to vary in how they're expressed, because people vary, and people are people before they're mentally ill.

I'm very much aware of it.

The reason that I separated "mentally ill" from "mentally scarred" was because of that broad spectrum in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've only watched the Camilla video so far, Ghast, and while I will say it was entertaining and interesting, and I'm impressed with how much time you must've spent on this, I can't say I agree with some of your conclusions.

Have you ever heard the saying that you're not supposed to look up your symptons online, because then you'll find that you've got every disease imaginable and a baby on the way? I feel like that's what happened with Camilla; she's a Japanese trope that hits some of these mental disorders, but I highly doubt that's what the developers themselves were going for. Hell, in two out of three cutscenes she's in, her big breasts and supposed sexyness are the focus, and the developers even wanted to give her horns to make her reminiscent of a cow, which is another anime trope for women with large busts. Her design is more important to the developers themselves than her actual character, which would also explain her superflousness in the main story and why her supports are so lacking in quality, as you yourself pointed out.

I also question her being "motherly" towards Corrin. Maybe that's just her creepy self trying to show affection, but I really don't think a mother acts the way she does to Corrin. Again, I think this is mere fan service and wish fulfillment disguised under the veil of her being "motherly", and by that I mean they never intended to write her as such, but rather to drive home the point of the main character (i.e YOU, you special little snowflake you) can bone a foxy sister, which is totes cool, because they're not blood related. I also think this is why we start the game with Felicia and Flora waking you up and why their past is not important at all to whichever maid follows you from the beginning: it's fan service and popular fetishes baked into the story with no regards to whether or not it actually fits.

In short, whatever illness she may have, I highly doubt it was an intentional decision made by the writers, as their priorities lay elsewhere. That's why I often feel like discussing Camilla's character is futile, as she's a static, unimportant, bland marketing tool that actively detracts from the game.

Edited by Thane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also question her being "motherly" towards Corrin. Maybe that's just her creepy self trying to show affection, but I really don't think a mother acts the way she does to Corrin.

Interestingly enough, I've been playing Conquest with my 4 year old daughter and Camilla is her second favourite character (first is Elise). She wholeheartedly loves Camilla's design (she actually asked if I could make her Camilla's outfit) and dialogue. I really hope I'm not motherly in the same way Camilla is, myself! But it's helped me regard Camilla in a new light: a 4 year old, with no knowledge of Japanese tropes, does accept Camilla as a mother-figure, and finds her comforting rather than creepy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly enough, I've been playing Conquest with my 4 year old daughter and Camilla is her second favourite character (first is Elise). She wholeheartedly loves Camilla's design (she actually asked if I could make her Camilla's outfit) and dialogue. I really hope I'm not motherly in the same way Camilla is, myself! But it's helped me regard Camilla in a new light: a 4 year old, with no knowledge of Japanese tropes, does accept Camilla as a mother-figure, and finds her comforting rather than creepy.

Forgive me if I sound rude, which is definitely not my intention, but the internet does such a horrible job of conveying the tone of my voice, but: what is your point? I also feel inclined to ask if you showed your daughter some of the horrible things Camilla has said, and if she understands the gravity of them. While I'm sure you've got a bright kid, I'm not sure any four-year-old is a paricularly good judge of design and writing decisions in video games.

Wasn't there a school in England which voted Eric Cartman as their favorite fictional character at some point? It might even have been a very long time ago. Still, they voted for one of the most (intentionally) vile fictional characters out there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Forgive me if I sound rude, which is definitely not my intention, but the internet does such a horrible job of conveying the tone of my voice, but: what is your point? I also feel inclined to ask if you showed your daughter some of the horrible things Camilla has said, and if she understands the gravity of them.

Oh, she most certainly does not understand the gravity of them.

I was really only making one point: that to a child, Camilla does read as being motherly. I don't know if it was intentional on the writer's part, but when playing the game myself, I couldn't possibly see how Camilla was in any way motherly. I only saw the creepiness. I didn't appreciate that she could be interpreted as motherly by anyone, but evidently she can, and it made me think that her dialogue was perhaps a little more nuanced that I had originally thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, she most certainly does not understand the gravity of them.

I was really only making one point: that to a child, Camilla does read as being motherly. I don't know if it was intentional on the writer's part, but when playing the game myself, I couldn't possibly see how Camilla was in any way motherly. I only saw the creepiness. I didn't appreciate that she could be interpreted as motherly by anyone, but evidently she can, and it made me think that her dialogue was perhaps a little more nuanced that I had originally thought.

Right. To me, that really doesn't mean anything, and I highly doubt that's what the writers had in mind.

...I most certainly hope they didn't have kids in mind when they literally shoved the camera into Camilla's cleavage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's fair to say a character has motherly qualities, even if they are secondary to the "principle motivation" of making a tropey, fanservice character. Her attention to others can be creepy and possessive but some of it is genuine compassion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's fair to say a character has motherly qualities, even if they are secondary to the "principle motivation" of making a tropey, fanservice character. Her attention to others can be creepy and possessive but some of it is genuine compassion.

I see your point, but with Camilla, her other traits eclipse whatever it is about her that is supposed to be motherly. She may be suffocating in her attempts at being there for people, but more often than not it seems to be because of her own selfish needs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right. To me, that really doesn't mean anything, and I highly doubt that's what the writers had in mind.

...I most certainly hope they didn't have kids in mind when they literally shoved the camera into Camilla's cleavage.

I think I'm mainly a little baffled by how many of Fates' characters read as completely flat and one-dimensional when others are so extremely well-written and seem to have considerable care placed into their design. The writing is all over the place and I think the latter type of character sometimes makes me question my interpretation of the former. I suppose the optimist in me would like to agree with ghast's well-made assertions and believe the writers intended at least some of the qualities mentioned for Camilla. Then again, as you said in your first post, it's likely just coincidence.

Anyway: I really enjoyed the videos, ghast, and you have an excellent speaking voice; very clear and easy to understand!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I'm mainly a little baffled by how many of Fates' characters read as completely flat and one-dimensional when others are so extremely well-written and seem to have considerable care placed into their design.

Hah, on that we can definitely agree. One needn't look further than Felicia and Flora; one of them doesn't care about having been kidnapped and forced into servitude, while the other one does. The fact that the game doesn't bring up this insane case of Stockholm Syndrome, or that Corrin never apologizes to Flora for failing to see how unhappy she was, is mind-boggling.

Edited by Thane

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I like to assume that authors generally have the best of intentions for their world and the characters that inhabit it until proven otherwise. The problem with Fates (and honestly, even Awankening) is that it does prove otherwise, numerous times. There's a lot of fanservice that's not diegetic (meaning that it doesn't make sense in universe and is put solely for the purpose of an outside user), which at least makes it harder for me to believe that they had the best of intentions for their characters. Even disregarding that, most characters don't have character arcs, and the ones that do have interesting aspects to them (e.g. Camilla and the concubine wars) tend to be hidden tidbets or things that are never expanded upon (e.g. the difference between Felicia and Flora). To me, this shows that they were more interested in flaunting the characters' gimmicks rather than developing them, especially considering there WERE interesting aspects of them that could be developed. This is partly the reason why you see so much fanfiction and theories of these two games IMO; it's more interesting to think what could have been even though the original creators clearly didn't give a fuck. This is further supported by how god awful Fates' world building is, showing that they at least didn't care much for the world that the characters inhabited. I have a very hard time believing that interesting characters would be inhabiting such a flat world, which is why I'd sooner believe that Camilla acts that way because anime rather than because she is well developed HA so worth making this post for that.

EDIT Italicized portions is an edit.

Edited by Refa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do know part of the reason I still like Camilla a lot as a character is fan theroies, because as an amateur writer myself, I feel dissecting things with a notable lack of details to form my own conclusions helps give me ideas for my writing. I mean, hell, this got to the point where I, towards Awakening which I consider to have worse writing than Fates albeit just barely, I wrote up a, coherent to me anyway, timeline covering all plot holes and explaining all of the plotholes in Awakening barring God forsaken chapter 23, and I've considered doing that with Fates, tho I probably won't as there is ALOT more shit to read in Fates.

Edited by MCPugi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Right. To me, that really doesn't mean anything, and I highly doubt that's what the writers had in mind.

...I most certainly hope they didn't have kids in mind when they literally shoved the camera into Camilla's cleavage.

I think Res's point was that a child doesn't enough "malice" to realize what's wrong with Camilla's behavior.

In a child's eye, all they see is someone who cares very much about the people they love. Children doesn't have have enough mental maturity to read between the lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...