Localization and Censorship?

[AmericanBuizel]

So, due to how universally hated Fates' localization is and how awful the liberal SJW cucks in Treehouse are, and how the Japanese noticed our outrage on the internet back in 2016(ish?), what do you guys think? Do you think that IS will have tighter grips over what's changed in the localization or do you think that Nintendo of Japan will just let NoA be feminist SJW cucks again with the localization?

[shadowofchaos]

15 minutes ago, AmericanBuizel said:

and how the Japanese noticed our outrage on the internet back in 2016(ish?),

Correction: They actually laughed and scratched their heads at the outrage, according to 2ch boards. Which you can't read judging from your assumptions.

[AmericanBuizel]

Just now, shadowofchaos said:

Correction: They actually laughed and scratched their heads at the outrage, according to 2ch boards. Which you can't read judging from your assumptions.

Either way, they still noticed so surely IS (at least if they're being logical) would understand where it's coming from and listen to the criticism of the fans.

[shadowofchaos]

6 minutes ago, AmericanBuizel said:

Either way, they still noticed so surely IS (at least if they're being logical) would understand where it's coming from and listen to the criticism of the fans.

http://itest.2ch.net/wktk/test/read.cgi/ghard/1453435074/l50

Go get someone to read that for you.

You clearly don't know how to let things go.

Gaiden remake clearly has care put into it judging from the trailer translation alone.

You should really just go away.

You don't contribute anything to this community other than trying to incite stupid anti-localization sentiment.

You don't even have any solid thing to criticize. You're speculating about a version in a language you don't even understand.

Quote

外人がおかしいだけじゃん

They are literally mocking this anti-censorship sentiment.

Edited March 7, 2017 by shadowofchaos

[AmericanBuizel]

1 minute ago, shadowofchaos said:

http://itest.2ch.net/wktk/test/read.cgi/ghard/1453435074/l50

Go get someone to read that for you.

You clearly don't know how to let things go.

Gaiden remake clearly has care put into it judging from the trailer translation alone.

You should really just go away.

You don't contribute anything to this community other than trying to incite stupid anti-localization sentiment.

You don't even have any solid thing to criticize. You're speculating about a version in a language you don't even understand.

And who am I going to get to read that? I don't know anyone that's Japanese.

Yeah, I do. I'm not autistic. Besides, you're the one who replied.

That's a trailer, not the game.

Nah, to quote Eminem (even though I'm not a fan): "This looks like a job for me, so everybody just let me be, because we need a little controversy".

Not true, I contribute plenty of lolz :^)))))

I have plenty, even outside of FE.

[Moblin Major General]

Just now, AmericanBuizel said:

And who am I going to get to read that? I don't know anyone that's Japanese.

Yeah, I do. I'm not autistic. Besides, you're the one who replied.

That's a trailer, not the game.

Nah, to quote Eminem (even though I'm not a fan): "This looks like a job for me, so everybody just let me be, because we need a little controversy".

Not true, I contribute plenty of lolz :^)))))

I have plenty, even outside of FE.

Google Translate. I don't care how bad it is, at least attempt it.

That was offensive. I have Aspergers, and even I can withhold a grudge.

If anything, a straight remake won't change anything, because nothing need be changed.

There is a difference between controversy and pettiness. You tend to exhibit the latter extensively.

Maybe you give more, but what you contribute is anything but productive.

The problem is, your "criticisms" come across as pettiness to the extreme. At best it's nitpicking, at worst, it's lessening the impact of necessary changes to make it appropriate for Western audiences. Quit wasting your life and mine by making petty arguments and find a meaningful cause to rally behind.

[The DanMan]

12 minutes ago, AmericanBuizel said:

And who am I going to get to read that? I don't know anyone that's Japanese.

Yeah, I do. I'm not autistic. Besides, you're the one who replied.

That's a trailer, not the game.

Nah, to quote Eminem (even though I'm not a fan): "This looks like a job for me, so everybody just let me be, because we need a little controversy".

Not true, I contribute plenty of lolz :^)))))

I have plenty, even outside of FE.

High-functioning autist here. Does not approve.

Anyways, it's really not worth arguing with you-- with statements such as "F*ck Nintendo, they can go bankrupt for all I care" and "F*ck IS for not listening to the real fans", taking you seriously is quite hard. And I don't think you contribute as many laughs or groans-- you've mostly just been ignored until now.

[AmericanBuizel]

12 minutes ago, Hylian Air Force said:

Google Translate. I don't care how bad it is, at least attempt it.

That was offensive. I have Aspergers, and even I can withhold a grudge.

If anything, a straight remake won't change anything, because nothing need be changed.

There is a difference between controversy and pettiness. You tend to exhibit the latter extensively.

Maybe you give more, but what you contribute is anything but productive.

The problem is, your "criticisms" come across as pettiness to the extreme. At best it's nitpicking, at worst, it's lessening the impact of necessary changes to make it appropriate for Western audiences. Quit wasting your life and mine by making petty arguments and find a meaningful cause to rally behind.

Still not that reliable.

Well then you clearly haven't been on the internet all that long.

Here's the thing, they've never brought over the OG Gaiden so they can easily change things.

Then explain all the butthurt Nintendo fanboys and SJWs I've offended in the past.

I'd say the lolz from the lol cows are pretty productive :^)))))

I can understand making some changes here or there, but to force your political beliefs down a consumer's throat? Yeah, it's ass shit. (I.E. Nyx)

Edited March 7, 2017 by AmericanBuizel

[BrightBow]

17 minutes ago, AmericanBuizel said:

I can understand making some changes here or there, but to force your political beliefs down a consumer's throat? Yeah, it's ass shit. (I.E. Nyx)

And yet you list your favorite Fire Emblem game as Path of Radiance. A game that was heavily about rascism and discrimination, as well as the injustice of the value of individuals being defined by the social status in which their were born into. When it comes to it's themes, PoR is the most "political" Fire Emblem by far.

Edited March 7, 2017 by BrightBow

[AmericanBuizel]

10 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

And yet you list your favorite Fire Emblem game as Path of Radiance. A game that was heavily about rascism and discrimination, as well as the value of individuals based on their social staus in which their were born into. When it comes to it's themes, PoR is the most "political" Fire Emblem by far.

There's a difference though. The politics in PoR were in game though and were a significant part of the story. The politics in Fates were from the localization and the localizers essentially forcing THEIR SJW PC beliefs down our throats. Don't believe me? There's a support convo of Nyx with some other character acting like an SJW in the North America version.

Edited March 7, 2017 by AmericanBuizel

[My Blue Sky]

The OP, in a nutshell:

But, to be honest? I'm autistic too, and I'm not impressed with the OP's blatant ableism and bratty behavior. It's just a videogame, not some life-and-death decision.

(Plus I'm not surprised to see JPN fans pointing and laughing aty butthurt Western fans. The same happened when Bleach ended and a bunch of rabid shipping fangirls started throwing tantrums over their favorite ship being sunk; the JPN Bleach fandom had a field day laughing at them.)

Edited March 7, 2017 by My Blue Sky

[Extrasolar]

2 hours ago, AmericanBuizel said:

Do you think that IS will have tighter grips over what's changed in the localization or do you think that Nintendo of Japan will just let NoA be feminist SJW cucks again with the localization?

So when I clicked this thread I was hoping for a well-reasoned, interesting debate regarding various aspects of localization and cultural translation. Read it, and got nothing but ill-reasoned complaining. Damn, that'll show me to get excited again.

First of all... Using "SJW" non-ironically and "feminist" like it's a dirty word or slur. Lul.

Well, considering we're talking about a 20-year-old game with a bare-bones plot, undeveloped characters and very little text in its original incarnation...there's not a whole of material for them to change in the first place. So, I mean... I think your rage is a little misplaced.

Yeah... I'm gonna stop feeding the troll at this point.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Extrasolar

[RedEyedDrake]

@Buizel:

Oh, please. As if the Japanese care about any sort of American outrage beyond as comedy material. Even if they noticed anything their reaction would be to laugh at the situation and move on. As if they'd ever address a subject such as this.

@shadowofchaos:

Do you mean that they're mocking it in the sense that they're laughing at the notion of the fanbase going against Treehouse or that they're mocking the fact that the English speaking fans got stuck with the sort of "localization" team that...well, ended up doing the sort of things that Treehourse ended up doing.

@Extrasolar:

He is kind of right in that you don't want the sort of people that he is referring to anywhere near media of any sort, you know. Treehouse has clearly demonstrated that they can't handle things like, for example, the inclusion of "face rubbing" or Soleil's character with even an ounce of responsibility and with at least some dignity.

Edited March 7, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Extrasolar]

12 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

He is kind of right in that you don't want the sort of people that he is referring to anywhere near media of any sort, you know. Treehouse has clearly demonstrated that they can't handle things like, for example, the inclusion of "face rubbing" or Soleil's character responsibly and with at least some dignity.

The "face rubbing" is a creepy and immersion-breaking mechanic that strays into dangerous territory, especially considering Corrin doesn't get any of these peoples' permission to suddenly start touching them. Treehouse was right to remove it, considering it carries...certain unfortunate implications that they'd be better off without. Even Japanese fans were generally unimpressed by it.

And I've read essays on Soleil's character from the Japanese to English, and I think people fail to realize that Soleil's original character, had it been directly ported over, would come off as offensive and/or insensitive. Different cultural standards,

I think they changed things for the better. Soleil's original character is a common stock character in Japanese media (a young woman who "plays" at being interested in other women, in that she's meant to be "practicing" in relationships until she "grows up" and becomes interested in men), but something like that comes off as offensive in the west, where standards of LGBT writing are different. Plus, I can't deny that the "potion" thing in her and Corrin's Japanese support comes off as him forcibly tricking her into being interested in him.

Localization is a necessary process, and changing things will happen, to make things more palatable for a general Western audience.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Extrasolar

[BrightBow]

33 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@Extrasolar:

He is kind of right in that you don't want the sort of people that he is referring to anywhere near media of any sort, you know. Treehouse has clearly demonstrated that they can't handle things like, for example, the inclusion of "face rubbing" or Soleil's character with even an ounce of responsibility and with at least some dignity.

Well, personally I would prefer to make my stand for the defense of the creative vision of games on the case of a game that actually has artistic integrity, like Senran Kagura or Dead or Alive for example. I mean, these games are shallow but they are pure and honest about what they are. All Treehouse did was to treat Fates with the same level of profit-maximizing cynicism as IS.

Edited March 7, 2017 by BrightBow

[AmericanBuizel]

Aaaaannnnnd you're all just showing your butthurt faggotry :^)

[De Geso]

23 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Localization is a necessary process, and changing things will happen, to make things more palatable for a general Western audience.

Assuming that a western audience can't handle adult themes or things that will make them feel uncomfy is a little silly.

I couldn't really care less about localization because most of the changes are minute but I dislike when art is censored to keep people from feeling upset. 

[Extrasolar]

@AmericanBuizel Well, it was nice knowing you (except it really wasn't). Enjoy your ban. Good riddance. Ashamed that you're a fan of POR just as I am...

[RedEyedDrake]

@Extrasolar:

The "creepy" part is you assuming that the face rubbing is supposed to be taken seriously or as "something that actually happens" in the context of the game. Not to mention that you're talking about consent in the context of a dating sim-esque feature. And "immersion breaking"? In the context of Fates? The way My Castle is introduced in a scene that is part of a chapter's proper nukes any such notion from orbit. Not to mention things like the sixth chapter of Birthright throwing around the term "evil" unironically like it is going out of style. And I really can't see the Japanese actually getting "offended" over such a feature. In fact, if they were actually unimpressed with it I'd imagine that it had more to do with notions such as "public decency, please" or "get a room".

In regards to Soleil, I'm talking about how Treehouse paraded around the fact that her characterization is getting changed as if they deserve some sort of "good guy points" for it or something. These people actually prided themselves over this. This sort of behavior alone demonstrates that these are the sort of people who don't deserve a shred of respect. Not until they "clean up their act" anyway, as the saying goes. And what they did goes completely against the notion of the character. They wanted to do away with the trope and make her behavior more tasteful? That's fine. The problem is that there are ways to do so without the "smoke and mirrors" of a false premise that they went with. They could have actually focused on trying to convey that instead of going all "look how politically correct and inclusive we are" among the sort of people who force this subject down everyone's throats and even do so via media where such doesn't belong in the slightest. "Different cultural standards" my foot.

So no. "Localization" is very much not necessary. Not when you could deal with the subjects involved in an actually tasteful manner.

Also, Squiddin's first sentence.

 

 

@BrightBow:

"First they came for the..." and all that jazz.

Edited March 7, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[BrightBow]

4 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Assuming that a western audience can't handle adult themes or things that will make them feel uncomfy is a little silly.

I couldn't really care less about localization because most of the changes are minute but I dislike when art is censored to keep people from feeling upset. 

There is nothing "adult" about the way Fates deals with the issues of sexuality and incest. Or god help, warfare and family for that matter. "Juvenile" would be a more fitting term. And being treated like a horny twelve year old is usually rather offputting for an adult audience.

Edited March 7, 2017 by BrightBow

[De Geso]

1 minute ago, BrightBow said:

There is nothing "adult" about the way Fates deals with the issues of sexuality and incest. Or god help, warfare and family for that matter. "Juvenile" would be a more fitting term.

The issue isn't how Fates handled it - which wasn't any better in the localization anyway - it is whether those themes are present

[DarkDestr0yer61]

>SJW

>Feminist

>Autism

>Butthurt Faggotry

I think you are just digging your own grave and no one is going to take you seriously.

[Extrasolar]

15 minutes ago, YouSquiddinMe said:

Assuming that a western audience can't handle adult themes or things that will make them feel uncomfy is a little silly.

I couldn't really care less about localization because most of the changes are minute but I dislike when art is censored to keep people from feeling upset. 

You realize that the west isn't the only part of the world where games are changed or censored in localization, right? Japan, despite people holding it up as the be-all end-all of non-censorship, has censored plenty of games that came from the west to the east.

Standards are different, yes, but censorship is the same. Japanese games tend to censor gratuitous violence, whereas the west tends to censor more sexual themes. At the end of the day, it's about selling the most games to your target audience, and if you happen to be being a bit more culturally sensitive to other peoples' lifestyles, what's the harm in that? I'd rather have a well-written, non-offensive LGBT character than a badly-written one, even if the badly-written part comes from different cultural standards.
 

11 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

The "creepy" part is you assuming that the face rubbing is supposed to be taken seriously or as "something that actually happens" in the context of the game. Not to mention that you're talking about consent in the context of a dating sim-esque feature. And "immersion breaking"?

Uh. It is. Because it actually does happen in the game. I don't care if they're trying to reference a dating sim feature, you can't deny that Corrin calls in a character, alone, to their room, and suddenly begins touching them for no explained reasons, and without getting the permission of the character being touched. I think you know what that sort of thing often leads to. Very bad implications, and thus, it makes sense why it was removed.

And I didn't say they were offended by it; just that they saw no reason for its inclusion, and thought in a lot of cases it was weirdly uncomfortable.

11 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

In regards to Soleil, I'm talking about how Treehouse paraded around the fact that her characterization is getting changed as if they deserve some sort of "good guy points" for it or something. These people actually prided themselves over this. This sort of behavior alone demonstrates that these are the sort of people who don't deserve a shred of respect. Not until they "clean up their act" anyway, as the saying goes. And what they did goes completely against the notion of the character. They wanted to do away with the trope and make her behavior more tasteful? That's fine. The problem is that there are ways to do so without the "smoke and mirrors" of a false premise that they went with. They could have actually focused on trying to convey that instead of going all "look how politically correct and inclusive we are" among the sort of people who force this subject down everyone's throats and even do so via media where such doesn't belong in the slightest.

Soleil's character trope isn't a thing in the west, though. When a writer introduces a seemingly lesbian character, and then suddenly goes, "lol just joking she actually likes guys!" that's seen as offensive backpedaling and "queerbaiting" (I personally dislike the term, but I don't know any other equivalent for it), for people that wanted an actual lesbian character.

Heather in Radiant Dawn never got much development (as did most characters introduced in Radiant Dawn), but she's an out-and-out lesbian, no string attached, attracted to women and nothing else, so there's no problem in bringing over lesbian characters or characters interested in women, since that was ported over faithfully. Treehouse realized that Soleil's character trope would cause a disconnect in the west, and thus it was changed. I'd say it was a good decision on their part.

And sorry... did you just use "politically correct" non-ironically? So it's a bad thing that people who actually exist are represented in video games or in other art forms? Okay...because if you think that, I'm gonna have to stop this conversation right there.
 

11 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

And no. "Localization" is very much not necessary. Not when you could deal with the subjects involved in an actually tasteful manner.

Disagree. Localization is very much necessary, unless you'd like your games to be full of Japanese puns, cultural references you don't understand, awkward and stilted grammar and sentence structure simply due to grammatical differences between Japanese and English, and the like. That's why so many fan translations are awkward at best and awful at worse, because most of the time, a direct translation between cultures simply doesn't work.

Localization is an art form, and some of the best moments in games have been the result of localization. I always point to Path of Radiance: In the Japanese version, Ike beat the Black Knight because his warp malfunctioned and left a shell of him behind. Oookay, contrived at the very least... The localization gave him a legitimate in-character motivation to let Ike win: He realized that Gawain wasn't at full power when he killed him, so the victory was hollow, Much, much better written.

Now, I'm not disagreeing that there have been questionable localization changes before, or changes not entirely for good or pragmatic reasons, but that doesn't change the fact in the modern day, localization has improved tenfold.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Extrasolar

[BrightBow]

43 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@BrightBow:

"First they came for the..." and all that jazz.

I find it hard to imagine that you actually read my post. Or did you get the impression that just because I used it as an example of games with artistic integrity that I think is worth defending, that I actually care about Senran Kagura of all things? Fates is just utterly mesmerizing in how it doesn't care about anything except making as much money as possible. I can't think of any other games to even compare it to which aren't microtransaction infested smartphone games.

Edited March 7, 2017 by BrightBow

[De Geso]

@Extrasolar "What's the harm in changing a piece of art in order to keep from hurting people's feelings?" That's what your post sounded like. 

I get where you're coming from in terms of wanting to boost sales but I hardly think any reasonable person would have been totally turned off of Fates because Soleil was written the way she was. 

And I know that the Japanese censor western games and never claimed that they didn't. I don't approve of that, either. 

Edited March 7, 2017 by YouSquiddinMe