Fates: Best in Class (per game)

[Interdimensional Observer]

6 hours ago, wissenschaft said:

I feel like Mozu's best options are just to class change her into an archer or dread fighter immediately.

Anyone who is unpromoted makes a good Dread Fighter. Using DLC promotion items on an unpromoted unit is cheating, since you can have the promotion boosts ASAP without losing on potential level ups, which you would if you used a Master Seal instead.

 

1 hour ago, SoulWeaver said:

She has access to the entire Triangle, something you're not getting otherwise unless you make someone a Great Knight, a Class which while better DEF- and MOV-wise also suffers from both Armor- and Cavalry-killing weapons. Also, while Great Knight may have better DEF, Master at Arms is still a formidable and from my experience rather versatile Class, definitely much sturdier than pretty much any other Class Mozu can get barring Friendship/Partner Seals which aren't being considered.

Except two of those ranks will start at E, not good. Raising E ranks up in Fates is a burden.

 

17 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

2.) Midori -- She can be a money-generator for you, or a decently powerful unit as a Merchant. Mechanist is also an option for her, and her stats are decent enough to facilitate both option, but as a merchant she gets the capability to generate gold, and then throw it at people for bonus damage. She has some powerful sets that abuse heart seals and the like, but she's a solid unit with just her base promotion options. Her personal makes her generate gold so much more often, it's really nice, especially in college-debt-poor Conquest. 

 

I never gave her a wickedly good mom, but naturally she's mostly Luck and Skill with meh elsewhere. Mechanist and Merchant are interesting classes, but their skills and bases are lacking. If we assume under optimal conditions a 50% Profiteer rate, we're looking at 3.5 gold bars per map, which means 1050 gold per battle. Which will be less in practice given the time it'll take Midori to hit 5 Merchant (15 isn't coming until the game is almost over- so Spendthrift offense, questionable in itself, will be limited in its impact). 

And this may be off a little, but CQ I determined gives ~113000 Gold, BR gives 1270000, Rev 60000, and Nohr exclusive kids (Forrest, Nina, Percy) can give about 15-18k depending on how well you can do Percy's (7-10k sound reasonable). CQ is practically as wealthy as BR with the kids factored in, not poor.

 

Nina can go either way- physical or magical, or both. It all depends on your choice of class and mother for her. Elise and Adventurer lets her Shining on, Charlotte and Bow Knight make her a Silver Bow powerhouse. Camilla and Azura give big Str and only decrease her Mag growth slightly, so they're especially good for a hybrid Nina.

 

And where is Kiragi? He's better than Midori for sure! He is much faster than his daddy, with comparable Str.

On Shiro- he does have Spd issues (doubling can be an issue for him), but he is strong and durable. For Oboro, she is very balanced, nothing with lacking nor overpowering, the Guard Naginata for tanking and overall good skills of the Spear Fighter family make her quite useful. Mozu and Hinoka as Spear Masters can outdo her, but that's not relevant here.

 

Lastly, I think Peri's personal skill lasts through the next player phase. So it's better than you give it credit for. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Interdimensional Observer

[Shadow Mir]

This is just me, but frankly, I think Shigure has no business being above Reina. At all. His problem is that he's the child of Azura, who you really have to go out of your way to marry off.

[Mandokarla]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And where is Kiragi? He's better than Midori for sure! He is much faster than his daddy, with comparable Str.

Lastly, I think Peri's personal skill lasts through the next player phase. So it's better than you give it credit for. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I can't believe I forgot Kiragi. Camilla!Kiragi as a Kinshi Knight has been like an F-22 Raptor on my Revelations run. He will be above Midori, and I may move Nina between him and Midori as well. I'd like to see some further arguments. 

Also, no, Peri's personal skill does not last into her next turn. It lasts for the rest of the turn it procs + that enemy phase. That's a big reason why Peri isn't considered a god tier offensive unit, if you could maintain those buffs with no downtime? That'd be busted. 

[Mandokarla]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

This is just me, but frankly, I think Shigure has no business being above Reina. At all. His problem is that he's the child of Azura, who you really have to go out of your way to marry off.

I have had no problems marrying of Azura. I always pair her up with Kaze, for a few reasons: In Conquest, Kaze's combat potential lies entirely on debuffing and being an anti-mage --- something Felicia does significantly better (she can just be a killer if you abuse Flame Shuriken), and you get her earlier, and she can heal. Another, if a unit fails to kill a target and Azura is left exposed there is a small chance that Kaze's personal skill will trigger and save Azura -- a chance that actually gets fairly large as the game goes on, with Azura's luck always being decent. The support will build slowly, but I just use Kaze a little bit each map to get those points built up. Dual Guard also builds support. If you really want to, dance abuse is possible while your main army is off clearing the map. 
In Revelations, I can do the same thing because Kagero does Kaze's job significantly better, and therefore I don't truly need him to be a dedicated combat unit. It's not hard to juggle them and build that support.

[Shadow Mir]

35 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

I have had no problems marrying of Azura. I always pair her up with Kaze, for a few reasons: In Conquest, Kaze's combat potential lies entirely on debuffing and being an anti-mage --- something Felicia does significantly better (she can just be a killer if you abuse Flame Shuriken), and you get her earlier, and she can heal. Another, if a unit fails to kill a target and Azura is left exposed there is a small chance that Kaze's personal skill will trigger and save Azura -- a chance that actually gets fairly large as the game goes on, with Azura's luck always being decent. The support will build slowly, but I just use Kaze a little bit each map to get those points built up. Dual Guard also builds support. If you really want to, dance abuse is possible while your main army is off clearing the map. 
In Revelations, I can do the same thing because Kagero does Kaze's job significantly better, and therefore I don't truly need him to be a dedicated combat unit. It's not hard to juggle them and build that support.

The thing is, Azura has no fast supports other than Corrin, and in Conquest in particular, it's unlikely you're going to get him to exist before the difficulty spike. And frankly, his personal skill has very little in the way of real use. So I'm unconvinced that he deserves to be above Reina, and having him over Beruka is also pushing it.

20 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

3.) Laslow -- Laslow is a (Marginally) bulkier Soleil, and his high skill, strength, and luck let him be a reliable, if not exceptional, player phase and enemy phase unit (if given a 1-2 range weapon). All of his pros are generic Merc/Hero pros, aside from his unique personal skill. His personal rallies +1 speed and +1 strength, which may not seem like much, but can make a distinct impact on a chapter. If you promote him into a Bow Knight he also picks up Rally Skill, so he can (by still following these rules) become a semi-respectable rallybot, which is never a bad thing. He is a solid unit all around.

This is another one I feel the need to contest - he only wins Hp, Skill, Str, and Luck against Selena, and his personal skill is underwhelming (and no, adding Rally Skill doesn't even make him a semi-respectable rallybot. At all.).

[Mandokarla]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The thing is, Azura has no fast supports other than Corrin, and in Conquest in particular, it's unlikely you're going to get him to exist before the difficulty spike. And frankly, his personal skill has very little in the way of real use. So I'm unconvinced that he deserves to be above Reina, and having him over Beruka is also pushing it.

This is another one I feel the need to contest - he only wins Hp, Skill, Str, and Luck against Selena, and his personal skill is underwhelming (and no, adding Rally Skill doesn't even make him a semi-respectable rallybot. At all.).

Beruka consistently underperforms when needed. A 40% speed growth and a base speed of 9 pretty much ensures that she will never double anything that needs to be killed, especially in Conquest where most of the Hoshidan units that matter have either high or above average speed. Her only exceptional growth is skill, which is only so effective, and decently high defense growth. But why would you try and make a flyer tank in Conquest, where archers are significantly more abundant than Beast Killers, and mages are very common too? There isn't anything about her that makes me go "yeah, that's a powerful unit". 

Reina get's ORKO'ed a lot lategame, if you're still using her. 20% def growth and 9 base def makes her a reset liability, though her offensive growths are actually quite respectable for her class. But Shigure can be a Falcon Knight w/Staff utility, and staff utility is such a nice thing to have lategame when you have a lot of people that need healing. It adds options that otherwise aren't there, and can save you from a reset. 

As for Laslow, his personal skill is actually relevant and has an impact, unlike Selena's. His problems are fixed the same way Selena's are: a good pair up partner to patch up his deficient stat (in this case speed or defense). However, Laslow benefits more strongly in the lategame from weapons like the Brave Sword, which he has little trouble getting A rank for in Conquest if you use him -- he starts with C, which is nice. He doesn't have trouble doubling / doesn't need to double anything he was WTA over anyway.Additionally, while Rally Skill is admittedly the most useless rally in the game aside from maybe Rally Luck, it gives him more buffing power in combination with his personal, and a buff is a buff. His higher skill also helps him proc Sol more often, and as spotty as it is in this game, it's still additional survivability. As a Hero, Laslow 's only growths that are lower than Selena's are his Speed, Magic (who cares), and Res. Two of those stats don't matter, and the last is patched up with a good support pair up (Which could be Selena, that Soleil isn't bad). Where by comparison, Selena's growths are all under 50% aside from speed and hp as a Hero. She is faster, but decidedly average in every other way. 

Also, my definition of a semi-respectable rallybot is a rallyman that rallies at least two stats well, or one stat well and two others a little, without having to do some arcane combination of heart sealing and whatnot. If you pair him with another unit that has a rally skill you can turn Soleil into a more standard rallying unit, but that's unnecessary to me.  

[Shadow Mir]

2 hours ago, Mandokarla said:

Beruka consistently underperforms when needed. A 40% speed growth and a base speed of 9 pretty much ensures that she will never double anything that needs to be killed, especially in Conquest where most of the Hoshidan units that matter have either high or above average speed. Her only exceptional growth is skill, which is only so effective, and decently high defense growth. But why would you try and make a flyer tank in Conquest, where archers are significantly more abundant than Beast Killers, and mages are very common too? There isn't anything about her that makes me go "yeah, that's a powerful unit". 

Reina get's ORKO'ed a lot lategame, if you're still using her. 20% def growth and 9 base def makes her a reset liability, though her offensive growths are actually quite respectable for her class. But Shigure can be a Falcon Knight w/Staff utility, and staff utility is such a nice thing to have lategame when you have a lot of people that need healing. It adds options that otherwise aren't there, and can save you from a reset. 

As for Laslow, his personal skill is actually relevant and has an impact, unlike Selena's. His problems are fixed the same way Selena's are: a good pair up partner to patch up his deficient stat (in this case speed or defense). However, Laslow benefits more strongly in the lategame from weapons like the Brave Sword, which he has little trouble getting A rank for in Conquest if you use him -- he starts with C, which is nice. He doesn't have trouble doubling / doesn't need to double anything he was WTA over anyway.Additionally, while Rally Skill is admittedly the most useless rally in the game aside from maybe Rally Luck, it gives him more buffing power in combination with his personal, and a buff is a buff. His higher skill also helps him proc Sol more often, and as spotty as it is in this game, it's still additional survivability. As a Hero, Laslow 's only growths that are lower than Selena's are his Speed, Magic (who cares), and Res. Two of those stats don't matter, and the last is patched up with a good support pair up (Which could be Selena, that Soleil isn't bad). Where by comparison, Selena's growths are all under 50% aside from speed and hp as a Hero. She is faster, but decidedly average in every other way. 

Also, my definition of a semi-respectable rallybot is a rallyman that rallies at least two stats well, or one stat well and two others a little, without having to do some arcane combination of heart sealing and whatnot. If you pair him with another unit that has a rally skill you can turn Soleil into a more standard rallying unit, but that's unnecessary to me.  

Yeah, Shigure's healing utility can help - IF he exists, that is, which I'm not willing to take for granted considering who he's tied to... And mind you, this is the very same Shigure who, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't really have much of anything that makes me think, "yeah, he's definitely on the team". Oh, and I don't see him inheriting any rallies unless you put recruiting him off until after the difficulty spike (and even then he can only get Strength or Skill, the former coming from a low tier, and the latter being... yeah). At least Reina comes just in time for a chapter that she can trivialize.

Laslow stuff: His better growths are in HP (by 10), Strength (by 15), Skill (by 20), and Luck (by 25). Also, I'd be hard pressed to see his personal saving the day. Admittedly, Selena's personal isn't too hot either, but it can at least help Shuriken users out. Also, while a pair up can solve his speed problems, speed pair ups are finite, and come with the cost of not being able to use attack stance.

[Mandokarla]

22 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Laslow stuff: His better growths are in HP (by 10), Strength (by 15), Skill (by 20), and Luck (by 25). Also, I'd be hard pressed to see his personal saving the day. Admittedly, Selena's personal isn't too hot either, but it can at least help Shuriken users out. Also, while a pair up can solve his speed problems, speed pair ups are finite, and come with the cost of not being able to use attack stance.

Personally speaking, I've never found attack stance to be that great, though I tend to run my teams with a mindset of "You are a specialist in ______ role" with a pair up partner that either counters their weakness or is a balanced unit that gives good support stats. Attack Stance is just too risky in many cases in my experience, though I might just be bad at the game -- I haven't attempted Lunatic in either route yet (I think Rev!Lunatic will be easier than Conquest!Hard though, aside from maybe Ch.26--Endgame). You're right about limited speed pair ups though, those can be hard to parcel out properly. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

Personally speaking, I've never found attack stance to be that great, though I tend to run my teams with a mindset of "You are a specialist in ______ role" with a pair up partner that either counters their weakness or is a balanced unit that gives good support stats. Attack Stance is just too risky in many cases in my experience, though I might just be bad at the game -- I haven't attempted Lunatic in either route yet (I think Rev!Lunatic will be easier than Conquest!Hard though, aside from maybe Ch.26--Endgame). You're right about limited speed pair ups though, those can be hard to parcel out properly. 

The thing is, there is such a thing as crippling overspecialization. Also, I generally find there's much less incentive to deploy a unit just to be a pair up bot than there was in Awakening. In fact, I found pair up to be rather situational. Btw, I honestly find braves to be rather underwhelming for the high price tag.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

This is just me, but frankly, I think Shigure has no business being above Reina. At all. His problem is that he's the child of Azura, who you really have to go out of your way to marry off.

what
marrying Azura is legitimately easy. She didn't even need to go to combat. Hard to marry is what you'd describe Elise if she's being used as a healer, since the nature of her class makes her operates alone, and her actions are somewhat limited by combat volume Conquest on a slower setting actually had a lot of empty turns where she's free to do whatever she want, lets not pretend everyone will be doing super LTC shit where you Shelter Shenanigans Azura half a map away 24/7 here

Of course theres Niles x Azura who went beyond being easy

Edited October 12, 2017 by JSND Alter Dragon Boner

[joshcja]

Pairup bots are worthwhile and nessecary on dedicated EP units.

Past that may as well just attack stance on player phase using guard stance for movement/situational stats/guage abuse. 

Seconding Azura being super easy to marry off. Shigure is bad cause kana stats not join time...

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Honestly if i'd rank character based on how easy it is to marry/build support off in Conquest it'd be like

 

#0 Arthur

#1 Azura

 

The rest

[wissenschaft]

I find guard stance useful for my enemy phase units (usually tanks like Xander) while attack stance is good to use with my weaker units like Kaze to ensure they kill who they attack.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

3 minutes ago, wissenschaft said:

I find guard stance useful for my enemy phase units (usually tanks like Xander) while attack stance is good to use with my weaker units like Kaze to ensure they kill who they attack.

Guard Stance actually added way more damage to Kaze than Attack Stance

 

Granted with the way Kaze work as a unit, he's practically invincible and kills everything in one round when it counts anyway

[Shadow Mir]

33 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

what
marrying Azura is legitimately easy. She didn't even need to go to combat. Hard to marry is what you'd describe Elise if she's being used as a healer, since the nature of her class makes her operates alone, and her actions are somewhat limited by combat volume Conquest on a slower setting actually had a lot of empty turns where she's free to do whatever she want, lets not pretend everyone will be doing super LTC shit where you Shelter Shenanigans Azura half a map away 24/7 here

Of course theres Niles x Azura who went beyond being easy

Your assertion's giving me the reasons to go "what". About the only easy way to marry her off is pairing her up with someone, which prevents me from using her for what I wanted to use her for in the first place. And she only has one fast support, which doesn't help her case.

 

[wissenschaft]

You can just grind supports through my castle battles (theres plenty that have their units without any weapons for an easy siege). Pair up and just keep attacking. All it takes to marry azura, or any healer is time.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

23 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Your assertion's giving me the reasons to go "what". About the only easy way to marry her off is pairing her up with someone, which prevents me from using her for what I wanted to use her for in the first place. And she only has one fast support, which doesn't help her case.

 

Azura gains points from Dancing and it took like 3-4 Dance per battle to build her rank on a 1 rank every 2 battle pace, which she could easilly do during Conquest Empty Turns. Which is a lot. A section before Haitaka is empty unless your LTCing. Mozu is Empty. Invasion 1 is Empty. CH10, is the one that leans her pairing tendency into Niles because obviously she can't Dance the strongest unit(Camilla) who would go out of her way to secure the outside portion of the map, so she'd Dance the next strongest(Niles). 

Thats already 4 chapter which puts her on B really easilly.

11 is literally handling room one by one unless you are rushing with Camilla. Even the only the most efficient Camilla rush would left Azura with no room to dance whoever she wants.

 

Then you have 3 more chapters, to build into A Rank. After this you had paralogues for S Rank. All in all she'd get married before Ninja Cave easilly

[Shadow Mir]

8 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Azura gains points from Dancing and it took like 3-4 Dance per battle to build her rank on a 1 rank every 2 battle pace, which she could easilly do during Conquest Empty Turns. Which is a lot. A section before Haitaka is empty unless your LTCing. Mozu is Empty. Invasion 1 is Empty. CH10, is the one that leans her pairing tendency into Niles because obviously she can't Dance the strongest unit(Camilla) who would go out of her way to secure the outside portion of the map, so she'd Dance the next strongest(Niles). 

Thats already 4 chapter which puts her on B really easilly.

11 is literally handling room one by one unless you are rushing with Camilla. Even the only the most efficient Camilla rush would left Azura with no room to dance whoever she wants.

 

Then you have 3 more chapters, to build into A Rank. After this you had paralogues for S Rank. All in all she'd get married before Ninja Cave easilly

Which is assuming she can reach someone every turn. And exactly who are you trying to marry her to? The same Niles who I find loses his value way too quickly???

Edited October 12, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia
I hate typos

[joshcja]

8 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Which is assuming she can reach someone every turn. And exactly who are you trying to marry her to? The same Niles who I find loses his value way too quickly???

Niles: Loses value. Azura: Not Dancing every turn. (Insert mad laughter)

[Mandokarla]

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The thing is, there is such a thing as crippling overspecialization. Also, I generally find there's much less incentive to deploy a unit just to be a pair up bot than there was in Awakening. In fact, I found pair up to be rather situational. Btw, I honestly find braves to be rather underwhelming for the high price tag.

Yeah braves cost more than they probably should, but they're still strong. But the way I play is pretty aggressive, so I need that guard stance to survive EP. Attack stance adds damage that, for the most part, isn't really impactful. I personally think Silver weapons are just...not great. Especially in a situation where they are in EP range, and you can't get a bulky enough unit close enough to trade-swap them to a better weapon. That debuff hurts man -- and only Dread Fighters can really deal with stacking debuffs and statuses. 

Maybe I'd have a different experience if I didn't have many of my strong units in classes that can be strong in both player phase and enemy phase. My Dark Knight!Corrin has actually been pretty damn strong, do recommend. Despite Kagero's relative frailty, I switch her in front when I have to deal with other mages or ninjas, and that works fine. My Revelations Xander is paired with Hinoka, who doesn't take magic damage. At all. So she can switch to cover his weakness. This is the kind of planning I use when I'm playing

[joshcja]

11 minutes ago, Mandokarla said:

Yeah braves cost more than they probably should, but they're still strong. But the way I play is pretty aggressive, so I need that guard stance to survive EP. Attack stance adds damage that, for the most part, isn't really impactful. I personally think Silver weapons are just...not great. Especially in a situation where they are in EP range, and you can't get a bulky enough unit close enough to trade-swap them to a better weapon. That debuff hurts man -- and only Dread Fighters can really deal with stacking debuffs and statuses. 

Maybe I'd have a different experience if I didn't have many of my strong units in classes that can be strong in both player phase and enemy phase. My Dark Knight!Corrin has actually been pretty damn strong, do recommend. Despite Kagero's relative frailty, I switch her in front when I have to deal with other mages or ninjas, and that works fine. My Revelations Xander is paired with Hinoka, who doesn't take magic damage. At all. So she can switch to cover his weakness. This is the kind of planning I use when I'm playing

Worth mentioning. Any discussion of attack stance kinda assumes CQ.

Rev/Br are played almost entirely in guard stance.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Mandokarla said:

Yeah braves cost more than they probably should, but they're still strong. But the way I play is pretty aggressive, so I need that guard stance to survive EP. Attack stance adds damage that, for the most part, isn't really impactful. I personally think Silver weapons are just...not great. Especially in a situation where they are in EP range, and you can't get a bulky enough unit close enough to trade-swap them to a better weapon. That debuff hurts man -- and only Dread Fighters can really deal with stacking debuffs and statuses. 

Maybe I'd have a different experience if I didn't have many of my strong units in classes that can be strong in both player phase and enemy phase. My Dark Knight!Corrin has actually been pretty damn strong, do recommend. Despite Kagero's relative frailty, I switch her in front when I have to deal with other mages or ninjas, and that works fine. My Revelations Xander is paired with Hinoka, who doesn't take magic damage. At all. So she can switch to cover his weakness. This is the kind of planning I use when I'm playing

Other than the price tag, my main issues with brave weapons are the accuracy, their having the Mt level of unforged iron weapons, and the defense drops (the ranged weapons halve your relevant offensive stat, and Lightning drops your Mag and Skill with each fight). All this means should bad luck come a-knocking, which is surprisingly often, you're eating a nasty counter. It also means that they're not the kind of weapons you want to be caught using come Enemy Phase, which mandates trade equipping a better weapon (needless to say, that's quite the inconvenience). And while I do agree Silver weapons aren't good, I don't see braves as any better. As far as Attack Stance goes, I like it because it lets me kill annoying enemy types without having to eat a counter. The hit boost also is a lifesaver against certain things (Kotaro and the Kitsunes, anyone?).

[Mandokarla]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

Worth mentioning. Any discussion of attack stance kinda assumes CQ.

Rev/Br are played almost entirely in guard stance.

I used the same strategies in CQ!Hard. It worked decently well, I only had to use attack stance against, as Levant said, Kotaro. Though, Witch!Ophelia was a good solo unit, because she could warp-transport people in fun ways. BUT this entire thread of thought is a tangent to the purpose of the thread itself. 

[Mandokarla]

Somewhat unrelated, but I have enjoyed this kind of discussion and I like seeing your input, I have made some edits to my list as a result of them. Do you guys thing a similar topic would be fun to discuss in the FE7 / FE8 forum sections? I know FE8's would require more rules to tone down the "everyone is viable because Easy-Stones" argument, which is valid but isn't as fun. FE7 would be considering HHM, unless there are objections. 

 

More related to this list, where would you guys rank my "classes" (combined and generalized as they are) against eachother? I mean, would you rank Ninjas above or below Archers? Fliers above cavaliers? I'm curious.

[Shadow Mir]

WRT Nina, I don't disagree with your assessment, but I don't consider her personal skill worth going out of my way for (pair up two male units... in a game where pair up is nerfed... and Nina has to be adjacent to them. Pass.). It doesn't help that in the relevant routes, I either have Xander as the only non-Corrin male on the field (Conquest) or Corrin is literally the one guy in an Amazon Brigade (Revelation).

4 hours ago, joshcja said:

Worth mentioning. Any discussion of attack stance kinda assumes CQ.

Rev/Br are played almost entirely in guard stance.

Honestly, even outside of CQ, I tend to get more mileage out of attack stance than I do guard stance.