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5 hours ago, MilodicMellodi said:

If I made it 3 cooldown, I'd have to reduce its power to Glimmer's in order to keep the Vantage effect. I could also instead make it 4 cooldown, with its power equal to Deadeye's. But I can't just make a skill that's a better version of another without having a drawback compared to the original skill.

Yeah, that is true. I think Lethality needs to be 3 cooldown though in order to be useful, so I think reducing it to Glimmer's effect might be more appropriate. Personally, I prefer Moonbow's effect since it is better for Counter-Vantage units to bust through bulky units.

Even if it is 4 cooldown, I do not think it is usable unless we get Special Spiral 4 or something to reduce cooldown by 3 after combat. Nobody uses Astra for example right now.

Edited by XRay
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On 9/21/2020 at 3:07 PM, XRay said:

Yeah, that is true. I think Lethality needs to be 3 cooldown though in order to be useful, so I think reducing it to Glimmer's effect might be more appropriate. Personally, I prefer Moonbow's effect since it is better for Counter-Vantage units to bust through bulky units.

Even if it is 4 cooldown, I do not think it is usable unless we get Special Spiral 4 or something to reduce cooldown by 3 after combat. Nobody uses Astra for example right now.

This kind of just gave me an idea...

Lethality and Assassinate. Both have Vantage, but Lethality has Glimmer while Assassinate has Moonbow.
I also got another idea while I'm here.

Knight's Shield
Special
Melee only
3 Cooldown
Effect: Reduces damage inflicted to unit by 30%. If unit is the supporting unit in Pair-Up, reduces damage inflicted to main unit from foe's first attack by 30%.
Combines Escutcheon and Sacred Cowl, while also providing first-attack damage reduction to the main unit in a Pair-Up if the unit isn't the main unit. Usable in a variety of game modes, such as Alleigance Battles and Mjolnir's Strike, though it's most usable by units that can Pair-Up by default (such as Legendary!Roy and Legendary!Alm).

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Adept: B Slot: If unit's special is charged, unit may perform a guaranteed follow up attack before the foe can counter attack. Melee units only.

So it's a worse Desperation that less units can use?

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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1 hour ago, MilodicMellodi said:

So it's a worse Desperation that less units can use?

It is guaranteed follow up attack with Desperation built in.

Basically, it is for Slaying-Time's Pulse users with no HP requirement. Galeforcers might also be able to use it.

Edited by XRay
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2 hours ago, XRay said:

Galeforcers might also be able to use it.

A Special that activates and resets its cooldown after combat can't be used to trigger a passive that requires a Special to be ready before combat.
Unless you happen to fully charge Galeforce before the unit's combat, in which case the Desperation is unnecessary to activate it.
In this case, the passive would be much better if its condition was based on the Special being at its maximum cooldown, rather than it being ready.

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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Thinking about a weapon that Caspar and Raphael could have if they don't intend to do anything about the fact that there's not really any slots for Colorless melee units.

Black Brawler Axe (Prf for Caspar)
10 Might. Inflicts Spd -2 on unit. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice. Unit is not affected by weapon triangle or skills that affect weapon triangle. Inflicts Spd/Def -3 on foes within 2 spaces during combat and if unit initiates combat, reduces damage from foes first attack by 20%.

Golden Brawler Axe (Prf for Raphael)
11 Might. Inflicts Spd -5 on unit. If unit initiates combat, unit attacks twice. Unit is not affected by weapon triangle or skills that affect weapon triangle. If units attack triggers special, deals +10 damage and unit recovers 20% of damage dealt as HP when special triggers

There was no weapon triangle in Three Houses, though skills like Swordbreaker did exist to emulate a weapon triangle and Grapplers do learn Tomebreaker, but I'm not sure there's a safe way to implement a triangle advantage on Tome units...
Caspar had a good mix of Speed and Strength to back up his Brawling prowess, and his Personal Skill lowered enemy Avoid, which in this game just means altering Attack even further. Raphael is more strength-based, and his Personal skill could randomly recover HP at the beginning of each turn. I imagine Raph would have a 2 cooldown special and Heavy Blade 4 in his kit, so his Prf would emulate this.

I imagine these Prfs would have gauntlets on in addition to an axe, maybe something club-shaped like what Rinkah has since Gauntlets aren't supposed to be that big like axes are.

...oh, I guess Balthus's Vajra-Mushti needs translating to, but what's there to translate? 11 might and adeptive damage, maybe ways to increase Atk further, boom you got a monster.

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Obstruct 4
B Passive
Armor Only
Effect: If unit's HP ≥ 25%, foes cannot occupy or move through spaces adjacent to unit. Foes adjacent to unit cannot activate Specials after combat.
Much better HP condition, and now also prevents foes occupying a space adjacent to unit due to teleportation. It also completely prevents Galeforce from activating, making it absolutely perfect for Tanks.

Pass 4
B Passive
Cavalry Only
Effect: Unit treats Forest and Water terrain as Trench Terrain (this effect cannot be neutralized). Neutralize skills that prevent unit from occupying or traversing through spaces, and allows unit to move through foes' spaces.
Neutralizes Obstruct like normal, but removes the HP condition and gives the unit the ability to always be able to travel through Forest and Sea terrain like they would a Trench tile. Due to it neutralizing the skill rather than the effect, it also gives the unit the ability to trigger Galeforce even if the foe has Obstruct.

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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On 9/24/2020 at 3:28 AM, MilodicMellodi said:

So it's a worse Desperation that less units can use?

Well it's a different version of desperation. For one being a guaranteed follow up means it's much more useful on slower units. It's set up might be a little less reliable than Desperation but there are different tools for managing it, such as Time Pulse and weapons with Special Spiral like Dark Mystletainn. In addition given the proc less, it would also do more to service defensive specials, especially if you can get Miracle charged and basically make a unit that's always knocking out guaranteed desperation attacks with an additional safety net to protect them if they ever do fail a kill. Granted trying to run some kind of defensive special build without Shield Pulse would be untennable, but Shield Pulse could easily be a released as a Seal (and something that's not 5* exclusive!). It wouldn't outright power creep Desperation, but it's not designed to. It would give desperation options for slower units without having to rely on Brash Assault.

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2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well it's a different version of desperation. For one being a guaranteed follow up means it's much more useful on slower units. It's set up might be a little less reliable than Desperation but there are different tools for managing it, such as Time Pulse and weapons with Special Spiral like Dark Mystletainn. In addition given the proc less, it would also do more to service defensive specials, especially if you can get Miracle charged and basically make a unit that's always knocking out guaranteed desperation attacks with an additional safety net to protect them if they ever do fail a kill. Granted trying to run some kind of defensive special build without Shield Pulse would be untennable, but Shield Pulse could easily be a released as a Seal (and something that's not 5* exclusive!). It wouldn't outright power creep Desperation, but it's not designed to. It would give desperation options for slower units without having to rely on Brash Assault.

So it's an incredibly niched Desperation that works best in builds that shouldn't think of running Desperation.
I was going to go into a lengthy paragraph as to why you shouldn't give slow, powerful units the potential to Quad without worrying about anything, but the context of this sentence should hopefully prove to do that.

The main point, however, is this. The ability to attack your foe with all of your attacks before they can attack you back is supposed to have a healthy risk/reward system for a reason. Shifting the condition "have unit at ≤75% HP while also having 5 or more Spd than the foe" to "have unit's Special ready, who cares about stats" makes that risk/reward tilt heavily in the player's favor without any real way to fight back against it. The skill would be so unbalanced in the player's favor to a majorly unhealthy degree.
Oh, and Brash Assault's HP condition was made precisely because of how units could potentially abuse the guaranteed follow-up attack in the early stages of the game. It was a great decision on their part, and despite how far the game's advanced Default!Lyn is still a powerful unit in her own right due to her Effect-Refined Sol Katti.
And while "guaranteed follow-up attacks" and "attack multiple times before foe can counter" is possible, it's also healthily separated into the weapon and B at best. There's a great reason why there are no non-weapon or non-B skills that grant guaranteed follow-up attacks, and that's because of Desperation. 
I won't go more into it, because I know Intelligent Systems has more than enough sense to not make it. And I'm not calling you stupid or anything. I'm just telling you why it's a bad idea.

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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5 minutes ago, MilodicMellodi said:

So it's an incredibly niched Desperation that works best in builds that shouldn't think of running Desperation.
I was going to go into a lengthy paragraph as to why you shouldn't give slow, powerful units the potential to Quad without worrying about anything, but the context of this sentence should hopefully prove to do that.

The main point, however, is this. The ability to attack your foe with all of your attacks before they can attack you back is supposed to have a healthy risk/reward system for a reason. Shifting the condition "have unit at ≤75% HP while also having 5 or more Spd than the foe" to "have unit's Special ready, who cares about stats" makes that risk/reward tilt heavily in the player's favor without any real way to fight back against it. The skill would be so unbalanced in the player's favor to a majorly unhealthy degree.
Oh, and Brash Assault's HP condition was made precisely because of how units could potentially abuse the guaranteed follow-up attack in the early stages of the game. It was a great decision on their part, and despite how far the game's advanced Default!Lyn is still a powerful unit in her own right due to her Effect-Refined Sol Katti.
And while "guaranteed follow-up attacks" and "attack multiple times before foe can counter" is possible, it's also healthily separated into the weapon and B at best. There's a great reason why there are no non-weapon or non-B skills that grant guaranteed follow-up attacks, and that's because of Desperation. 
I won't go more into it, because I know Intelligent Systems has more than enough sense to not make it. And I'm not calling you stupid or anything. I'm just telling you why it's a bad idea.

So are you simultaneously saying it's a bad idea because it's too powerful, but also that it's too niche in its use?

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13 hours ago, Jotari said:

So are you simultaneously saying it's a bad idea because it's too powerful, but also that it's too niche in its use?

Yes.

While its build is niche (considering you're being forced to use Miracle as opposed to an offensive Special or Galeforce, and you're not even using Miracle for its intended purpose), the build itself would tip the scales too heavily in the player's favor once Miracle is fully charged.

I've also been ignoring AoE Specials and its interaction with this. If you happen to be using a build on a very high ATK unit with a Brave weapon, Blazing AoE Special, and this skill, you're pretty much guaranteeing that the unit — no matter its Spd or HP — will be able to launch 5 powerful attacks before the foe is capable of countering. (And yes, I say "very high ATK" and "Brave weapon" in the same sentence, because the average BST of new units has grown to such an extent that Brave weapons have been making a hard comeback.)
EDIT: A more balanced version of "Desperation with guaranteed follow-up" is on the previous page, under "Battalion Desperation". With my version, you have to trigger the AoE to get the effect. It's niche due to requiring you to use an AoE Spam build, but it's balanced because it's both risky and not incredibly easy to get into the HP% required. It has a healthy risk/reward, making the effect at least somewhat balanced for its risk.

I know this comes off as rude, but I'm not going to argue my point anymore. I've already said my piece, at this point it's a matter of what you believe is common sense.

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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7 minutes ago, MilodicMellodi said:

Yes.

While its build is niche (considering you're being forced to use Miracle as opposed to an offensive Special or Galeforce, and you're not even using Miracle for its intended purpose), the build itself would tip the scales too heavily in the player's favor once Miracle is fully charged.

I've also been ignoring AoE Specials and its interaction with this. If you happen to be using a build on a very high ATK unit with a Brave weapon, Blazing AoE Special, and this skill, you're pretty much guaranteeing that the unit — no matter its Spd or HP — will be able to launch 5 powerful attacks before the foe is capable of countering. (And yes, I say "very high ATK" and "Brave weapon" in the same sentence, because the average BST of new units has grown to such an extent that Brave weapons have been making a hard comeback.)

I know this comes off as rude, but I'm not going to argue my point anymore. I've already said my piece, at this point it's a matter of what you believe is common sense.

Oh no, I don't mind it being rude. I just think that in terms of design philosophy something that is both powerful, but difficult to pull of works provided one side doesn't out balance the other. And there would be checks and balances for something such as this like Witchy Wand or just plain skills with built in guard. Though it would trivialize something like Chain Challenge wherein you have ample maps to build up miracle.

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7 hours ago, MilodicMellodi said:

(And yes, I say "very high ATK" and "Brave weapon" in the same sentence, because the average BST of new units has grown to such an extent that Brave weapons have been making a hard comeback.)

The BST increase has not been high enough to make Brave Weapons a viable alternative for most Weapon and movement classes.

Brave Bow is the only inheritable Brave Weapon that consistently outperforms most exclusive Weapons to a significant degree. Double Bow, Persecution Bow, Guardian's Bow, and Luna Arc are the only non Brave exclusive bows that rival Brave Bow in power. And fliers are the only movement class that can realistically go for Brave Weapons for raw damage output due to their access to Rein skills.

For melee Weapons, Brave Weapons have not reached that point yet. For F!Kris, she is better off with her default Spear of Shadow as it gives her better enemy phase survivability if she gets accidentally left in enemy range, as both Spear of Shadow and Brave Lance performs similarly on player phase. Similarly for Jill, if she did not have access to Rein skills, she would have been better off with Talregan Axe. And even with Spd/Def Rein, Brave only outperforms Talregan by less than 10 kills, so spending 20,000 Feathers for a small improvement in performance is not something necessary. However, if a player wants to use a raw damage nuke, I would recommend them use ranged units instead as they are safer and easier to use. The primary reason to use melee units is for Galeforce, so melee Brave Weapons still would not be all that relevant even if they have a much higher damage output.

Challenger List: Against Hard List. Both sides +10 with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs. Challengers have 1 HP.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Jill (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Talregan Axe  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
😄 Spd Def Rein 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Jill (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Axe+  
Special: Luna  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
😄 Spd Def Rein 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Kris(F) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Spear of Shadow  
Special: Ruptured Sky  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Kris(F) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Lance+  
Special: Luna  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  

 

Edited by XRay
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Hmm...well, in any case here's a new skill idea.

Audacious Thrust 3
B Passive
Physical Melee Infantry and Cavalry only
Effect: If unit's HP ≥ 75% at the start of combat, unit cannot make a follow-up attack. If foe's HP ≥ 50% at the start of combat, and unit defeats foe, grants Special cooldown count -2 to unit and inflicts status effect on foes within 2 spaces of foe after combat that prevents them from making a follow-up attack through their next actions.
A ballsy skill that prevents the unit from making a follow-up attack unless they're within Desperation HP%. Then, if the foe's HP is greater than or equal to half their max, and the unit defeats the foe, then the unit gets a free Special Spiral and foes within 2 spaces of the one defeated are hit with a status effect that prevents them from making follow-up attacks through their next actions.
This is...basically a skill for people to flex on others. If your unit has the audacity (high Atk) enough to defeat your foe with less attacks (or Desperation HP%), they get a huge cooldown reduction and the ability to flex even harder on the remaining enemies.

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Olivi Grass: At the start of turn, if unit is transformed. Grant +4 to atk, spd, def and res until next actions. (C Skill beast units only)

 

Wings of Love: Unit may move to any space adjacent to support partner. (B skill, basically Lilith's weapon skill on a skill slot, because Wings of Mercy and the like haven't been power crept basically ever and because I want Lilith's support partner to be able to move adjacent to her)

Edited by Jotari
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  • 2 weeks later...

Divine Pulse: C Skill: At the start of turn 1, grants, special cooldown -6. At the start of turn, inflict the [Guard] status effect on unit.

So basically you instantly charge your special at the start of the battle, but then basically can't build their special for the rest of the math. There are ways around it, you could equip skills that increase your special charge or you could cure the Guard status effect, but given how you'd want to use this on a high charge special like Aether or Miracle, there's not much point to it. However the skill does have another bonus side effect in that, by inflicting the unit with the guard status every turn, it ensures they always have a penalty on them for stuff like Fimbulvetr to activate.

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Wind Tempest (Flame Tempest, Thunder Tempest, Light Tempest)
Special
5 Cooldown
Non-Staff only
Effect: Before combat this unit initiates, foes in an area near target take damage equal to (unit's Atk minus foe's Def or Res). After combat, if target is 2 spaces in a cardinal direction from other foes, and the space between the target and other foe is unoccupied, the foe(s) moves 1 space closer to target. (If foe in a cardinal direction from target cannot move to space between target and that foe, that foe is not moved.)
I might have worded it weirdly, but this is essentially a version of an AoE that "sucks in" foes to the target. Great for canceling out Solo skills of other foes while also dealing good AoE chip damage. I decided to make it most like Rising Wind in terms of its pre-battle AoE and damage, as I feel the utility of potentially moving a maximum of 3 foes at once (or 4 on Rival Domains/Grand Conquests) more than makes up for its lack of killing power. Units like Default!Jaffar would be able to absolutely abuse this Special; while he wouldn't be able to deal much of any damage to most foes before or during battle, his post-battle chip damage combined with this Special's positional utility would make him an asset on any team that thrives on guerilla tactics.
The main weakness of this Special is that it doesn't work as effectively in maps where terrain can be an issue. Flying units would be the most manipulatable, as there are few spaces on any map they can't be placed on, but Infantry and Armored units can't be placed on Mountain or Sea terrain. Cavalry units would be the least potentially affected, especially on maps densely packed with Forest tiles, since they can't be placed on all three of those terrains.

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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Reckless Bladeworks 3
B Passive
Non-Staff Infantry only
Effect: If unit initiates combat with HP ≤ 50%, bonuses to unit's damage dealt from non-Special skills is multiplied by 1.5x during combat.
Imagine putting this on Legedary!Celica...oh boy.

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Canto

Special (3 charge)

If unit initiates combat or if unit uses an assist skill, grants unit another action after combat. Unit cannot attack or use assist until unit ends bonus action. Cavalry and Flying allies only.

 

Basically a nerfed version of Galeforce for Cavalry. Unit gets to move again, but cannot attack. It charges must faster than Galeforce, activating automatically if the unit doubles and the enemy counter attacks. It can also activate for mounted healers which could be very useful. If the unit moves back to a dancer after activating canto, the dancer can dance them and they will be able to take full actions afterwards so it can be used to keep dancers out of the way while still dancing mounted units. Largely though it's going to be an assist to support units as it will allow units to position themselves better for Drives and Bonds etc.

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9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Canto

Special (3 charge)

If unit initiates combat or if unit uses an assist skill, grants unit another action after combat. Unit cannot attack or use assist until unit ends bonus action. Cavalry and Flying allies only.

 

Basically a nerfed version of Galeforce for Cavalry. Unit gets to move again, but cannot attack. It charges must faster than Galeforce, activating automatically if the unit doubles and the enemy counter attacks. It can also activate for mounted healers which could be very useful. If the unit moves back to a dancer after activating canto, the dancer can dance them and they will be able to take full actions afterwards so it can be used to keep dancers out of the way while still dancing mounted units. Largely though it's going to be an assist to support units as it will allow units to position themselves better for Drives and Bonds etc.

This is just my personal opinion, but I feel like the utility of allowing a unit to retreat warrants for the Special to have at least 4 cooldown. Either that, or a further restriction should be placed on the skill.

I think a good one would be to make it so it won't activate unless the user has ≥ 80% HP, so that the unit can't use Desperation and Brazen skills effectively. Or perhaps it could be so that it does activate no matter what, but only gives the unit 1 movement on the second action unless the unit has said HP% condition.

Anyhow, that's just me lol

Edited by MilodicMellodi
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12 minutes ago, MilodicMellodi said:

This is just my personal opinion, but I feel like the utility of allowing a unit to retreat warrants for the Special to have at least 4 cooldown. Either that, or a further restriction should be placed on the skill.

I think the fact that you can’t attack or assist is penalty enough, honestly. 4 cooldown doesn’t make it much better than Galeforce, and imposing another penalty based on HP doesn’t make any sense relating to Canto. If I had to think of a penalty, though... it’d probably be movement, either restricting the unit to two spaces or one space, depending on how much you think it’s unbalanced. 
 

I personally think that banned assists should only be locked to dancing, though. Honestly, I don’t think an extra heal, rally, or reposition would break the game on its knee.

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4 hours ago, MilodicMellodi said:

This is just my personal opinion, but I feel like the utility of allowing a unit to retreat warrants for the Special to have at least 4 cooldown. Either that, or a further restriction should be placed on the skill.

I think a good one would be to make it so it won't activate unless the user has ≥ 80% HP, so that the unit can't use Desperation and Brazen skills effectively. Or perhaps it could be so that it does activate no matter what, but only gives the unit 1 movement on the second action unless the unit has said HP% condition.

Anyhow, that's just me lol

My response to this is pretty much this exaxtly

4 hours ago, SirErrant said:

I think the fact that you can’t attack or assist is penalty enough, honestly. 4 cooldown doesn’t make it much better than Galeforce, and imposing another penalty based on HP doesn’t make any sense relating to Canto. If I had to think of a penalty, though... it’d probably be movement, either restricting the unit to two spaces or one space, depending on how much you think it’s unbalanced. 

 

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On 6/14/2020 at 1:27 AM, Jotari said:

Warp: Push ally two squares away and restore Hp=50% Atk +10.

Rescue: Target ally moves to opposite side of unit and restores Hp=50% Atk +10.

Rewarp: Unit moves to opposite side of target ally and restores Hp=50% Atk +10

Foul Play: Swap places with target ally and restores Hp=50% Atk +10.

All are staff exclusive. Healing for staff units has actually been quite static for a long time now. These skills would not only represent so me classic staves from the series but would also open up competition on healers B slots by making them be effectively able to use Link skills while healing. Foul Play I'm not sure fits with the others thematically, it's based in the Trickster skill from Three Houses. But I wanted a healing version of swap and nothing else really jumps out. Foul Play I could see also being a two ranged version of Swap exclusive to Yuri. Draw Back is another one I'd need to think of a skill for. Though I suppose I could just make one up.

 

 

On 6/15/2020 at 7:11 AM, Hilda said:

I like the idea but it needs to be executed differently kinda. There are many times where you do not want to swap/change places with allies after a healing. This would work great if they were introduced as a "Duo-Skill"-Exclusiv button skill for healers, where they can toogle the skill on and off. That way Healers can still use the Healing Assist they want and have a side bonus.

Oh wow. I was right on the money with this. Though your previous comments about it also kind of stand.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hm... lemme swing an idea round for you...

Most used A passives generally run Atk and one other stat, generally the most important stat other than Atk. But... what if that second "stat" was something else? And after thinking a little about Iago's tome, I came up with... Impulse. The below description is used for what would be Atk Impulse, with one Impulse for each of the four stats.

At start of turn, grants one of the following bonuses to unit in order: [Atk Furious Impulse], [Atk Panicking Impulse], [Atk Guardian Impulse], [Atk Disrupting Impulse], and [Atk Domination Impulse]. After every combat, the status cycles to the next status, looping back to beginning after every status has been used at least once. All statuses grant unit Atk +5.

  • Furious Impulse: Grants Atk/Spd/Def/Res +2 during combat, and inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res -2 on foe during combat.
  • Panicking Impulse: Reverses all of targets bonuses during combat, and inflicts [Panic] on foes within 2 spaces of target after combat (Sneering Axe effect)
  • Guardian Impulse: Inflicts Special Charge -1 on foe during combat, and inflicts Special Charge +1 on foes within 2 spaces of target after combat (Guard and Pulse Smoke effects)
  • Disrupting Impulse: After combat, inflicts Atk/Spd/Def/Res -7 on target and foes within 2 spaces of target (all Stat Smoke skills)
  • Domination Impulse: Unit deals additional damage = total penalties on foe (Blizzard tome, Spy's Dagger refine, etc.)

And the status would change after every combat, rather than every turn or phase, so the tide of battle would change instantly depending on when you are attacking, are being attacked, so on.

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