The age of Brave Lyn is over. The time of the dragons has come!

[Arthur97]

9 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Oh no. Having A-plus-tier characters is considered handicapped now. How ever will I play this game.

Oh, I'm rather well off, but that's not the point. The point is, they unfairly repped the runner ups namely by giving special B skills to Ike and Lyn (Lyn's is once again ridiculous while Ike's is...okay) and a stat boost (though that doesn't seem special anymore, it was at the time). 

[Tenzen12]

Lyn and Ike are pretty equal. In hindsight he might be even better.

[Ice Dragon]

15 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Oh, I'm rather well off, but that's not the point. The point is, they unfairly repped the runner ups namely by giving special B skills to Ike and Lyn (Lyn's is once again ridiculous while Ike's is...okay) and a stat boost (though that doesn't seem special anymore, it was at the time). 

Give me one good reason second place deserves to be treated equally to first place. And then give me one good reason third place doesn't deserve to be treated equally to first place.

[GinRei]

29 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Oh, I'm rather well off, but that's not the point. The point is, they unfairly repped the runner ups namely by giving special B skills to Ike and Lyn (Lyn's is once again ridiculous while Ike's is...okay) and a stat boost (though that doesn't seem special anymore, it was at the time). 

Counterpoint: runner ups weren't even supposed to get special units to begin with.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I really wonder how in the living fuck did people think Lancina is "terrible". Undispelable 3/3 is absurdly good, and she can provide 10/3 and 7/7 or right now with the right build which have 2 panel coverage and again undispellable and tied to a unit with toprate specs and an Infantry released alongside a guy who made every Infantry Monstrously good

And all of this stacks with Standard Hone

 

just about the only thing Lancina lacks to be completely game warping is mounted class and thats because with a horse she could instead gave you AT LEAST 11 Attack and 7 speed

 

buff stacking was, is, and always will be OP and its not limited to just Bladetome. Thats the real reason Panic Ploy comes into existence since Hone on C slot was the ultimate truth

[Arthur97]

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Give me one good reason second place deserves to be treated equally to first place. And then give me one good reason third place doesn't deserve to be treated equally to first place.

Because, you're screwing over people who want the runner ups. Good grief, Ike was third if you want to be technical. It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't expressly break the mold for Ike and Lyn. Why should they be made so much better just because they came one place ahead?

10 minutes ago, GinRei said:

Counterpoint: runner ups weren't even supposed to get special units to begin with.

Maybe they shouldn't have.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Good grief, Ike was third if you want to be technical.

If I want to be necessarily technical and necessarily pedantic, Ike placed first because the poll was counted separately for male and female characters.

 

6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Why should they be made so much better just because they came one place ahead?

So why should second place get anything at all over third place when they only came one place ahead?

[Arthur97]

7 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If I want to be necessarily technical and necessarily pedantic, Ike placed first because the poll was counted separately for male and female characters.

Actually, while does say top heroine and hero as well as wallpaper results, the actual results are given as: https://events.fire-emblem-heroes.com/vote/result?overall=1. Clearly a split was needed so there would be at least one guy, but the overall results are as displayed.

14 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

So why should second place get anything at all over third place when they only came one place ahead?

Make your cut off and decide with that, but don't give some more special treatment and not the others. All or nothing. Your defense of their preference is grating.

[Tenzen12]

Why not give more popular characters more special threatment? This "All or nothing" policy doesn't make sense. Ike and Lyn got stat bonus as winners. Lucina and Roy didn't. That's normal. You don't see Olympic athletes complain about getting "only" bronze medal and not same gold one as actual winner do you?

 

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Actually, while does say top heroine and hero as well as wallpaper results, the actual results are given as: https://events.fire-emblem-heroes.com/vote/result?overall=1. Clearly a split was needed so there would be at least one guy, but the overall results are as displayed.

Ahem: https://events.fire-emblem-heroes.com/vote/result

While the overall results are available for viewing, the results were clearly judged split by sex. You discount the main page which displays the winners of the poll and the method by which it was judged and the wallpaper results without giving a reason why the results listed on that page, the official results, no less, are less valid than the tabulation of the overall results found by scrolling to the bottom and navigating to a separate page.

 

21 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Make your cut off and decide with that, but don't give some more special treatment and not the others. All or nothing. Your defense of their preference is grating.

And who are you to decide that all or nothing is right and they are wrong? What makes all or nothing a more correct means of rewarding victory than tiered rewards?

Should the first through third place winners in the Olympics all earn a gold medal, stand at the same height on the podium, have their countries' flags raised to the same height, and have their national anthems played when the flags are raised?

 

EDIT:

1 minute ago, Tenzen12 said:

Why not give more popular characters more special threatment? This "All or nothing" policy doesn't make sense. Ike and Lyn got stat bonus as winners. Lucina and Roy didn't. That's normal. You don't see Olympic athletes complain about getting "only" bronze medal and not same gold one as actual winner do you?

Holy shit how did we come up with the exact same counterexample and post at the same time.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ice Dragon

[Arthur97]

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Ahem: https://events.fire-emblem-heroes.com/vote/result

While the overall results are available for viewing, the results were clearly judged split by sex. You discount the main page which displays the winners of the poll and the method by which it was judged and the wallpaper results without giving a reason why the results listed on that page, the official results, no less, are less valid than the tabulation of the overall results found by scrolling to the bottom and navigating to a separate page.

 

And who are you to decide that all or nothing is right and they are wrong? What makes all or nothing a more correct means of rewarding victory than tiered rewards?

Should the first through third place winners in the Olympics all earn a gold medal, stand at the same height on the podium, have their countries' flags raised to the same height, and have their national anthems played when the flags are raised?

 

EDIT:

Holy shit how did we come up with the exact same counterexample and post at the same time.

No, I read the main page too. Also, the midterms were not split by gender. 

Still, just because they won a poll is no excuse for breaking them, and again, it takes away some of the choice. Why pick Roy if you can have a ridiculous Lyn? This is still a game that needs some form of balance, not a character who kills all but a handful of units. In this case, second place seems almost worse since they're there, but not really important. Even Ike seems overshadowed. 

Sure, it may have looked bad if the character with the second most votes didn't get one (one of the reasons I believe they did give them a special version), but at least then we wouldn't have units designed to be worse then the other units in their banner.

[Ice Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

No, I read the main page too.

And you still have not given me a reason why the official results and awards posted on that page are any less valid than the overall results.

 

7 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Also, the midterms were not split by gender.

I wasn't aware I was still in college.

How is that relevant to the official end results? (Hint: It isn't.)

 

7 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

This is still a game that needs some form of balance, not a character who kills all but a handful of units.

And it is still balanced, especially with all of the recent updates meant to weaken cavalry units.

As it is right now, you just seem to be angry about losing some matches and making blind accusations without any thought behind them. "I don't like how things are. I am right and other people are wrong," is how you're coming off.

 

12 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

Sure, it may have looked bad if the character with the second most votes didn't get one (one of the reasons I believe they did give them a special version), but at least then we wouldn't have units designed to be worse then the other units in their banner.

Characters being worse than others in their banner have existed since the very beginning. It makes it easier to choose who gets dropped to 4-star rarity after the characters are added to the standard summoning pool.

As a concrete example, you can't say that Ike was not designed to be better than Mist, Soren, and Titania in the World of Radiance banner. He very much was designed to be the best unit on that banner by far.

 

And you still haven't answered my questions:

44 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And who are you to decide that all or nothing is right and they are wrong? What makes all or nothing a more correct means of rewarding victory than tiered rewards?

Should the first through third place winners in the Olympics all earn a gold medal, stand at the same height on the podium, have their countries' flags raised to the same height, and have their national anthems played when the flags are raised?

Those were not rhetorical.

[Tenzen12]

You wouldn't find ANY banner with even approximately equal characters (with CYL being closest to it) anyway. With Choose your legend we got four excellent unit with different niches. Even if Lyn and Ike are somehow better (with Ike being slightly ahead Lyn) in the end it doesn't matter as each of them are used differently and don't even share colour. 

Lucina is best spur support, Roy (were) best offensive sword. cavalry. Trying say that IS didn't do them justice is just attacking  straw man.

straw.

54 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Holy shit how did we come up with the exact same counterexample and post at the same time.

Well, it's most appropriate one. So we (and many others I dare say) would choose it. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Tenzen12

[Arthur97]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And you still have not given me a reason why the official results and awards posted on that page are any less valid than the overall results.

 

I wasn't aware I was still in college.

How is that relevant to the official end results? (Hint: It isn't.)

 

And it is still balanced, especially with all of the recent updates meant to weaken cavalry units.

As it is right now, you just seem to be angry about losing some matches and making blind accusations without any thought behind them. "I don't like how things are. I am right and other people are wrong," is how you're coming off.

 

Characters being worse than others in their banner have existed since the very beginning. It makes it easier to choose who gets dropped to 4-star rarity after the characters are added to the standard summoning pool.

As a concrete example, you can't say that Ike was not designed to be better than Mist, Soren, and Titania in the World of Radiance banner. He very much was designed to be the best unit on that banner by far.

 

And you still haven't answered my questions:

Those were not rhetorical.

For one, I have units to deal with her, so don't go making accusations. You have a tendency to come off as kind "I'm better than you" too, so don't get all high and mighty on me. The problem comes from the fact they broke the mold to make them better. They gave them an extra non inheritable skill and higher stat totals. Was the special unit not enough? Granted these have apparently become more common, but then, why not give them to the others if it was to become common practice? They could have made them better without being so blatant. 

[Tenzen12]

There is no need for unit have non-inheritable skill to perform as well. Why should all four unit get one although they are best for their role regardless?

I will say it again ALL FOUR UNIT ARE ON TOP OF THEIR NICHES. Exactly as IS intended. 

Edit: Also you still didn't addressed question "What makes all or nothing a more correct means of rewarding victory than tiered rewards?" Whole your argument stand on it,  yet you are avoiding giving it's rationale.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Tenzen12

[thecrimsonflash]

So when am I getting my free OP version of mist, even last place deserves a solid gold trophy. 

[Ice Dragon]

35 minutes ago, Arthur97 said:

You have a tendency to come off as kind "I'm better than you" too, so don't get all high and mighty on me.

It happens a lot when I have arguments to back my position and the other person doesn't.

[GinRei]

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

Sure, it may have looked bad if the character with the second most votes didn't get one (one of the reasons I believe they did give them a special version), but at least then we wouldn't have units designed to be worse then the other units in their banner.

Did you complain this much when Tailtiu was released alongside Sigurd?

1 hour ago, Arthur97 said:

They could have made them better without being so blatant. 

How?  The only "better" units that have come out have something blatant that makes them better.  A unique weapon effect, a special skill, a special special, or some combination therein.  Hell, Sigurd has both a unique weapon, special skill, AND the stat boost that you're complaining about Ike and Lyn having.  And he didn't even win a popularity contest.  Same with Ayra with her special weapon, special special, and stat boost.  Yet you don't seem upset about this.  It's very apparent that you aren't upset that these units are good or better than others; rather you're just upset that your preferred unit didn't get the same treatment.  This was shown by Ice Dragon's question about why Third Place shouldn't receive the same benefits as Second Place.  It just shows that you're being arbitrary with your anger and that your argument isn't really amounting to much.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

19 minutes ago, GinRei said:

Did you complain this much when Tailtiu was released alongside Sigurd?

How?  The only "better" units that have come out have something blatant that makes them better.  A unique weapon effect, a special skill, a special special, or some combination therein.  Hell, Sigurd has both a unique weapon, special skill, AND the stat boost that you're complaining about Ike and Lyn having.  And he didn't even win a popularity contest.  Same with Ayra with her special weapon, special special, and stat boost.  Yet you don't seem upset about this.  It's very apparent that you aren't upset that these units are good or better than others; rather you're just upset that your preferred unit didn't get the same treatment.  This was shown by Ice Dragon's question about why Third Place shouldn't receive the same benefits as Second Place.  It just shows that you're being arbitrary with your anger and that your argument isn't really amounting to much.

Sigrd Taltyu is a bit of a flip for me since i honestly think shes better than Siggy

 

But i also considered Elincia worse than Oscar on release 

[Arthur97]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

It happens a lot when I have arguments to back my position and the other person doesn't.

See? This right here just screams arrogant. I think it's a sour slap in the face to have inferior units given as a consolation prize. It's an insult to those who wanted them, and if you can't see that, then oh, well. Honestly, I'm tired. You make me mad. The CYL makes me mad. I apologize for my anger, but, please, leave me be. We won't agree. I don't like how they went about it. Yes, it's fair under the strict policy of they "won," but if you're going to give the other two special versions as well, I think they should be made like other banners. You mentioned Ike and the others. Ike at least wasn't given extra skills or a special stat total, but he was still better. Is that too much to ask (apparently it is if you're to be believed).

1 hour ago, GinRei said:

Did you complain this much when Tailtiu was released alongside Sigurd?

How?  The only "better" units that have come out have something blatant that makes them better.  A unique weapon effect, a special skill, a special special, or some combination therein.  Hell, Sigurd has both a unique weapon, special skill, AND the stat boost that you're complaining about Ike and Lyn having.  And he didn't even win a popularity contest.  Same with Ayra with her special weapon, special special, and stat boost.  Yet you don't seem upset about this.  It's very apparent that you aren't upset that these units are good or better than others; rather you're just upset that your preferred unit didn't get the same treatment.  This was shown by Ice Dragon's question about why Third Place shouldn't receive the same benefits as Second Place.  It just shows that you're being arbitrary with your anger and that your argument isn't really amounting to much.

Ahem, she was a horse archer. Odds are she would have been better anyways. Did she really need to be immune to distant counter weapons too? Or given extra stats?

As for new units having the extra stat total, yes, it's a thing now, so why not start it with all four of the popular characters? The question of why not third place doesn't work since they got nothing. What I'm saying is that if they give them a special version, they should all get special treatment. If they decided to add the third tier winners in that banner, they should have been given the same. 

[bottlegnomes]

19 hours ago, Hilda said:

Uh wut?! i would say he is offensively the best of the lots... i just met a Brave Roy running 65 attack and 53 Spd... one touch death combo with galeforce in it if he attacked a physical unit of mine lulz

 

8 hours ago, Arthur97 said:

As much as it embitters me, isn't Lucina considered the worst?

I just said Roy because I haven't been keeping up on how they were ranked and I thought that's what people were saying on launch. I have Ike and Lyn and have fought tons of Roys, but don't have much experience with Lucina in any regard, so I can't speak on her. In regards to the other three, I'm of the opinion that Ike's the worst. He's easier to maneuver around and can't force the enemy team into a corner like Roy and especially Lyn can. Also, from all my using him, granted mine is -spd, it feels like he has some trouble actually killing enemies unless he charged up a special. Roy and Lyn don't ever have that problem and can take a hit if absolutely necessary.

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

It happens a lot when I have arguments to back my position and the other person doesn't.

Much as I agree with your arguments, this does sound a little douchey.

Anyway, as for Roy and Lucina, meh. Roy and Lucina are still super good from what I've seen/heard. They made a very active effort to make all four exceptional characters and succeeded in spades. Roy and Lucina got all the favoritism possible in the previously set constraints and even actually did get a little boost that (I think) broke the previous mold: They got legendary weapons with two effects and on top of that level 3 effects rather than the usual single level 2 effect. So it's not like IS just slapped new costumes on Roy and Lucina and were like mayble they'll be good. Heck, they completely reorganized Roy's stat because they probably saw his base form was considered rather bad. As much shit as people give IS for Heroes, they're doing a fantastic job of being responsive and accommodating to players.

[Tenzen12]

Ike strength isn't in "driving you into corner" though. In arena he is pain because his resilience. There is almost no unit (not even red ones) that could ORKO which is dangerous in meta where glass canons have main word. And if there are some behind  him than you are in trouble. In my case he ruined more deathless runs than Rein and Lyn combined that way.

And he is even better in PvE.

 

[Clogon]

10 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Also, Siegbert now outperforms Roy since he can run the exact same Galeforce build without melting to a counterattack and also has the option of running straight damage by stacking Dark Greatsword with Swift Sparrow, Life and Death, or Fury.

I still don't get why they insist on giving all Roys needlessly average defensive stats instead of sacrificing either to boost any of his other 4 stats.

[Armadillo8]

B!Lyn and Rein were never really a problem to me. Merric with QR one-rounds them on enemy phase. 
As for dragons... I guess I'll use my Masked Marth after all...

[Charmeleonbrah]

As the topic creator, I'm a little disappointed no one has commented on my LotR reference in the title. 

Here's my take on your debate: all four CYL units at the time of release were very powerful; the #1's Ike and Lyn were S+ tier, and Lucina/Roy were S tier.  Arguing that the runner-ups were screwed is silly; Lancina is the best infantry hone in the game and is a very good melee unit, and Roy is the best sword cavalry unit, with a great default skillset.  As far as the  "well I have X unit to counter Y unit so Y unit is meh" argument goes, what unit DOESN'T have a counter?

You guys are missing the real difference between B! Lyn and B! Lucina; Lyn's artwork is much hotter.  Her thighs are 10/10, and also gets boob armor and cute boots.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Charmeleonbrah