Subaki class path, the uncatchable wall

[DragonFlames]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Bold: Ummmm... What? Why do you say this? I mean, sure, Subaki is kinda garbage, but I could at least get some mileage out of Hinoka and Caeldori. That's better than what I can expect out of the natural wyverns (granted, Camilla's pretty great, but Beruka has troubles with her speed and a personal skill that tends to not be very useful in practice [9 times out of 10, it's either kicking in on an archer or an unarmed healer], and Percy requires marrying off the biggest liability on the Nohrian side of the game just to exist; safe to say that might not happen unless I'm feeling really generous).

Personal animosities toward Hinoka aside, I had better results using Beruka than Hinoka. Her personal skill is situational at best, no arguments there (though it is pretty cool to get some extra damage out of your Hand Axe / Tomahawk against enemy lances), but I found Beruka in Conquest to be overall more useful to me than Hinoka in Birthright. For lance users, I'd rather have Mozu or Oboro and when fliers are concerned, I can promote Mozu to Kinshi-Knight or use Reina and / or Scarlet. Though Birthright doesn't exactly necessitate the use of fliers in the first place, really. You can get by just fine without one.
Not to mention that in Revelation, Hinoka comes in so late and so underleveled that using her is next to impossible / very impractical as you will have already picked the units you want to train by that point, and that's not even getting into the fact that her recruitment chapter is full of enemies she can't really deal with without dying in the process.

As for Caeldori and Shigure, I won't make the argument that they're bad units (because they aren't) but I found that they get at least somewhat hampered by their base class and are better off used in other classes.

The best thing about the Sky Knight class is the fact that it can promote to Kinshi-Knight, though Archers can do that, too and you'll have to deal with E-rank bows for a while if you do promote from Sky Knight. Falcon Knight is best used as another staff bot, which you already have enough of on both paths, otherwise, it's a pretty weak class, I find. 

[mangasdeouf]

On 14/03/2018 at 8:53 AM, DragonFlames said:

The best thing about the Sky Knight class is the fact that it can promote to Kinshi-Knight, though Archers can do that, too and you'll have to deal with E-rank bows for a while if you do promote from Sky Knight. Falcon Knight is best used as another staff bot, which you already have enough of on both paths, otherwise, it's a pretty weak class, I find.

I never found the pegasi very useful as a fighting class. In GBA FEs they were more like planes to fly better fighters from point A to point B, in RD they were completely useless and horrible to use during most of the game (not helped by the shit availability of any of them compared with both wyverns who start with better bases for their joining chapters and who can quickly make up for their weaknesses with fast exp gain and by being close to the best units in their respective teams. In Awakening they are staffbots but they get lancefaire, making the class path at least useful for something outside of a staff bot with a weakness to bows and wind and no impaired movement from terrain (but also no terrain bonuses) but it wasn't an offensive class (unlike dark flyer). In fates they don't have enough base res to do their best job (AKA mage killer) and I won't praise Kinshi knight as a class since they have bows without the +4 damage on PP that archers have, shitty promotion gains (really shitty) and down the earth growth rates compared with most decent classes (not even talking about OP classes).

Sky knights are just useful for the usual plane work and then pair-up bots. But Subaki has a good reclassing option that gives him skills and growths that suit him better and that's the topic I made: make this guy useful without giving him any special/DLC/friend's class. Just his own class set can make him good enough for his role.

[DragonFlames]

11 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I never found the pegasi very useful as a fighting class. In GBA FEs they were more like planes to fly better fighters from point A to point B, in RD they were completely useless and horrible to use during most of the game (not helped by the shit availability of any of them compared with both wyverns who start with better bases for their joining chapters and who can quickly make up for their weaknesses with fast exp gain and by being close to the best units in their respective teams. In Awakening they are staffbots but they get lancefaire, making the class path at least useful for something outside of a staff bot with a weakness to bows and wind and no impaired movement from terrain (but also no terrain bonuses) but it wasn't an offensive class (unlike dark flyer). In fates they don't have enough base res to do their best job (AKA mage killer) and I won't praise Kinshi knight as a class since they have bows without the +4 damage on PP that archers have, shitty promotion gains (really shitty) and down the earth growth rates compared with most decent classes (not even talking about OP classes).

Sky knights are just useful for the usual plane work and then pair-up bots. But Subaki has a good reclassing option that gives him skills and growths that suit him better and that's the topic I made: make this guy useful without giving him any special/DLC/friend's class. Just his own class set can make him good enough for his role.

I got you. I was just talking about my opinions on the Sky Knight class in general, not Subaki specifically.

[mangasdeouf]

Yes I was just bouncing on your comment about pegasi. They suck outside from Gaiden/Echoes which have FE8's undead tripple damage to be useful. And dark flyers which aren't cannon pegasi anyway (cannon=falcon knight) and wyvern knights which are just so much better than falcon knights (better str, skl, spd and def caps with same res or not far lol vanilla was so unbalanced).

[joshcja]

On topic: A simpler build would probably just be VLaD+Awakening Caeldori. If anyone wants to use this on higher difficulties than normal.

On the topic of older pegs... are you high? Florina/Tana/Vanessa are widely considered some of if not the best non-seth gba units. (Also Tana is the superior blue haired FE waifu). While the elder whitewings and Caeda are just bar none the best units in 1/3/2/12 (Ignoring MU).

Even within BR Caeldori, Reina, and Bolt!Swolekura are indisputable top end units.

There is a reason "early peg" is synonomys with "extremely good unit".

Edited March 18, 2018 by joshcja

[mangasdeouf]

1 hour ago, joshcja said:

On the topic of older pegs... are you high? Florina/Tana/Vanessa are widely considered some of if not the best non-seth gba units. (Also Tana is the superior blue haired FE waifu). While the elder whitewings and Caeda are just bar none the best units in 1/3/2/12 (Ignoring MU).

LOL Vanessa. She's useful but in no grind I couldn't bring her close to good. Why? because many early chapters have fighters/bandits who can easily 2HKO her whie she barely has 55% hit rate with close to inexistant damage with the only weapon that doesn't make her loose 3+ speed so she has a little chance to dodge 1/5th of the time, or there are so many ennemies and some rushing at you by groups or waves that she can't take them by herself (chapter 4/5) and some archers. She has trash-tier base stats (especially 11 base speed with 5 CON so sh has 8 speed with an iron lance meaning 16+5=21 avoid at level 1 with her weapon type's base weapon and can only double ennemies with =<4 speed LMAO only to deal less damage in 2 hits than 1 of Gilliam's attacks that also has the same accuracy while he starts at C lances, closer to B and A which respectively allow him to hold a hero/silver lance even if only the latter is available for a good chunk of the game). Vanessa's final stats make her a plane for carrying combat units. I've already used her in the final chapters. Even at level 20/20 of any of the 2 classes she is so useless. 20/10 hero Gerik is better than 20/20 Vanessa. 20/5 Cormag is way better than her just because he has around 19 speed, maybe a bit more if RNG blessed, pierce skill negating defence, at least 4 more points in def, equal luck or not too far, 10-15 more HP (OK I exaggerate a little but he's got more physical bulk she can ever have) and he doesn't have to deal with E-rank second weapon (LULZ at this useless weapon rank in no grind it's only useful for chapter 9 Eirika's route and you could as well fly some combat unit to the southern village to take the rapier and then fly it again to the western village and joining your paladin fighting for the dracoshield village's sake).

Tana is Cordelia, in love with the prince, wants to be useful (wants to be the best for Cordelia), more offence-oriented than her competition.

Florina starts so weak she can get close to ORKO by a soldier (I wrote close, not straight ORKO) so if she gets RNG screwed (in no growths emblem) she goes straight down to benchville when you get your second flyer who will probably have better bases (FE6 is so boring for me I'm ROFLstomping it with Marcus and a few hack stat boosters just to read the storry but I couldn't be less annoyed by a FE game, or maybe should I just put cap stats on anyone I intend to use on Nightmare and rush to the end, or make Marcus a Manakete with unbreakable dragonstone and capped stats and 15 movement). Starting weaker than Eirika is not something I call good (Eirika has Rapier to OS cavaliers for some exp at least and she has the CON to use it, unlike Florina with 4 CON, even worse than Vanessa and Lute whose tomes are only 1 point over her weight and who has monstrous damage output all the game so she doesn't even need anything else than fire tomes). I prefer using Syrene in FE8 than Florina in FE6 (she's only taking a few level ups to become able to do what she has to do without insta-death). And Syrene has +1 CON over the class's bases instead of -1. And she has direct access to fili shield. And good weapon ranks.

Honestly if it weren't for the spider in a non-LTC chapter 6 or Eirika's route full success (saving both villages and getting the bonus item) I'd probably give 0 level up to any pegasus in no grind and just wait for Cormag to show up. He's far superior to both pegasi and so much better than Syrene by the time you get her. Anyway TSS doesn't require any flyer to finish the game easily, just easier for side objectives (and bonus gold if you don't intend to give the promotion item to Neimi).

Edited March 18, 2018 by mangasdeouf

[joshcja]

You're doing it wrong

[DragonFlames]

49 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

LOL Vanessa. She's useful but in no grind I couldn't bring her close to good. Why? because many early chapters have fighters/bandits who can easily 2HKO her whie she barely has 55% hit rate with close to inexistant damage with the only weapon that doesn't make her loose 3+ speed so she has a little chance to dodge 1/5th of the time, or there are so many ennemies and some rushing at you by groups or waves that she can't take them by herself (chapter 4/5) and some archers. She has trash-tier base stats (especially 11 base speed with 5 CON so sh has 8 speed with an iron lance meaning 16+5=21 avoid at level 1 with her weapon type's base weapon and can only double ennemies with =<4 speed LMAO only to deal less damage in 2 hits than 1 of Gilliam's attacks that also has the same accuracy while he starts at C lances, closer to B and A which respectively allow him to hold a hero/silver lance even if only the latter is available for a good chunk of the game). Vanessa's final stats make her a plane for carrying combat units. I've already used her in the final chapters. Even at level 20/20 of any of the 2 classes she is so useless. 20/10 hero Gerik is better than 20/20 Vanessa. 20/5 Cormag is way better than her just because he has around 19 speed, maybe a bit more if RNG blessed, pierce skill negating defence, at least 4 more points in def, equal luck or not too far, 10-15 more HP (OK I exaggerate a little but he's got more physical bulk she can ever have) and he doesn't have to deal with E-rank second weapon (LULZ at this useless weapon rank in no grind it's only useful for chapter 9 Eirika's route and you could as well fly some combat unit to the southern village to take the rapier and then fly it again to the western village and joining your paladin fighting for the dracoshield village's sake).

Tana is Cordelia, in love with the prince, wants to be useful (wants to be the best for Cordelia), more offence-oriented than her competition.

Florina starts so weak she can get close to ORKO by a soldier (I wrote close, not straight ORKO) so if she gets RNG screwed (in no growths emblem) she goes straight down to benchville when you get your second flyer who will probably have better bases (FE6 is so boring for me I'm ROFLstomping it with Marcus and a few hack stat boosters just to read the storry but I couldn't be less annoyed by a FE game, or maybe should I just put cap stats on anyone I intend to use on Nightmare and rush to the end, or make Marcus a Manakete with unbreakable dragonstone and capped stats and 15 movement). Starting weaker than Eirika is not something I call good (Eirika has Rapier to OS cavaliers for some exp at least and she has the CON to use it, unlike Florina with 4 CON, even worse than Vanessa and Lute whose tomes are only 1 point over her weight and who has monstrous damage output all the game so she doesn't even need anything else than fire tomes). I prefer using Syrene in FE8 than Florina in FE6 (she's only taking a few level ups to become able to do what she has to do without insta-death). And Syrene has +1 CON over the class's bases instead of -1. And she has direct access to fili shield. And good weapon ranks.

Honestly if it weren't for the spider in a non-LTC chapter 6 or Eirika's route full success (saving both villages and getting the bonus item) I'd probably give 0 level up to any pegasus in no grind and just wait for Cormag to show up. He's far superior to both pegasi and so much better than Syrene by the time you get her. Anyway TSS doesn't require any flyer to finish the game easily, just easier for side objectives (and bonus gold if you don't intend to give the promotion item to Neimi).

To be fair, I found Florina and Tana to be at least somewhat good units, but I would agree with the notion of Wyvern Riders / Knights / whatevers to be the superior option usually.
Jill and Haar are superior to Marcia and Tanith in FE9 and 10.
Heath is superior to the pegs in FE7 (though he does come in a little late)
Cormag is better than Tana, Vanessa and Syrene in FE8
Beruka and *retch* Camilla are better than Subaki and Hinoka in Fates

But then there's Sumia and Cynthia in Awakening and Shiida in Shadow Dragon, both of whom are fantastic units, even as Pegasus Knights.
In Sumia and Cynthia's case, they're far superior to Cherche and Gerome even without taking Galeforce into account.
And Shiida, who may I remind you has the most broken weapon in Shadow Dragon in form of the Win(g) Spear, promotes to Wyvern, so... best of both worlds, I guess.
 

[mangasdeouf]

5 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

best of both worlds

Van Hallen FTW

Edit: Cynthia is a 2nd gen unit in the game where 2nd gen units are OP, Sumia in no reclass hard mode will be a mediocre staff bot at best. Awakenin offers infinite level grinding so even The worst units can cap all stats.

Edited March 18, 2018 by mangasdeouf

[DragonFlames]

1 minute ago, mangasdeouf said:

Van Hallen FTW

Indeed.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/13/2018 at 4:29 PM, Hylian Air Force said:

Pair with Effie having him in the back. Bam. Tanky Percy. Hell, you don't even have to use them for very long. You can get him before Chapter 10 in Conquest if you visit Mozu's paralogue. You can also train them in Kana's(and Dwyer's) Paralogue if Corrin is paired with Felicia (or Jakob). Percy doesn't have to be hard to get. You just have to want him.

Which, like I said, might not happen unless I'm feeling really generous, and is extremely unlikely if I have Corrin marry a first gen unit. After all, it's not like Effie needs that schmuck to be fielded to be a destructive force... And I'm spiteful to the point where having Arthur's bad luck come full circle (by way of him ending up forever alone) amuses me. 

On 3/14/2018 at 1:53 AM, DragonFlames said:

Personal animosities toward Hinoka aside, I had better results using Beruka than Hinoka. Her personal skill is situational at best, no arguments there (though it is pretty cool to get some extra damage out of your Hand Axe / Tomahawk against enemy lances), but I found Beruka in Conquest to be overall more useful to me than Hinoka in Birthright. For lance users, I'd rather have Mozu or Oboro and when fliers are concerned, I can promote Mozu to Kinshi-Knight or use Reina and / or Scarlet. Though Birthright doesn't exactly necessitate the use of fliers in the first place, really. You can get by just fine without one.
Not to mention that in Revelation, Hinoka comes in so late and so underleveled that using her is next to impossible / very impractical as you will have already picked the units you want to train by that point, and that's not even getting into the fact that her recruitment chapter is full of enemies she can't really deal with without dying in the process.

As for Caeldori and Shigure, I won't make the argument that they're bad units (because they aren't) but I found that they get at least somewhat hampered by their base class and are better off used in other classes.

The best thing about the Sky Knight class is the fact that it can promote to Kinshi-Knight, though Archers can do that, too and you'll have to deal with E-rank bows for a while if you do promote from Sky Knight. Falcon Knight is best used as another staff bot, which you already have enough of on both paths, otherwise, it's a pretty weak class, I find. 

My big issue with Beruka is that as hand axes and tomahawk aren't the most accurate things ever (the latter in particular has a blind spot and spotty accuracy to boot), extra damage is hardly worth being easy to double attack. And I would disagree on being able to get by without fliers in Birthright on anything above normal mode because of chapter 12.

I'd say both promotions are useful, which is more than can be said of Wyvern Rider's promotions (most units can't use both axes and tomes well, neutering Malig Knight as a class).

 

[DragonFlames]

9 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

My big issue with Beruka is that as hand axes and tomahawk aren't the most accurate things ever (the latter in particular has a blind spot and spotty accuracy to boot), extra damage is hardly worth being easy to double attack. And I would disagree on being able to get by without fliers in Birthright on anything above normal mode because of chapter 12.

I'd say both promotions are useful, which is more than can be said of Wyvern Rider's promotions (most units can't use both axes and tomes well, neutering Malig Knight as a class).

Fair enough.
For me, Beruka is one of the few than can actually use Hand Axes and Tomahawks semi-reliably because of her rather strong Skill stat. And she's slow to the point where she'll rarely double anything anyway, so the no-doubling penalty isn't that much of a deal-breaker for me. But, to each their own, as they say.
I'll be honest: The only two fliers I used serioulsy on Birthright were a Dark Flier Sophie (I had Silas marry Orochi, for whatever reason) and Reina, so Chapter 12 never gave me much in the way of trouble. But you're right. For that chapter, a flier is pretty necessary, I forgot that for a second. But I want that flier to be able to deal damage to my enemies and that is something Hinoka doesn't exactly deliver on.

100% agreed on the promotion thing, though. Malig Knight is just bad. While Falcon Knight isn't much better offensively, it can at least serve as another staff bot.

[Shadow Mir]

On 3/17/2018 at 3:15 PM, mangasdeouf said:

I never found the pegasi very useful as a fighting class. In GBA FEs they were more like planes to fly better fighters from point A to point B, in RD they were completely useless and horrible to use during most of the game (not helped by the shit availability of any of them compared with both wyverns who start with better bases for their joining chapters and who can quickly make up for their weaknesses with fast exp gain and by being close to the best units in their respective teams. In Awakening they are staffbots but they get lancefaire, making the class path at least useful for something outside of a staff bot with a weakness to bows and wind and no impaired movement from terrain (but also no terrain bonuses) but it wasn't an offensive class (unlike dark flyer). In fates they don't have enough base res to do their best job (AKA mage killer) and I won't praise Kinshi knight as a class since they have bows without the +4 damage on PP that archers have, shitty promotion gains (really shitty) and down the earth growth rates compared with most decent classes (not even talking about OP classes).

Sky knights are just useful for the usual plane work and then pair-up bots. But Subaki has a good reclassing option that gives him skills and growths that suit him better and that's the topic I made: make this guy useful without giving him any special/DLC/friend's class. Just his own class set can make him good enough for his role.

I dunno - two of the GBA games had weak enemies, and as far as RD is concerned, only Haar stood out for Wyverns (Jill has pretty lame bases for her level, for one. Second, she's in the one group who has it the worst exp wise. Her case isn't helped by the fact that she misses out on a chapter that she would've been really good in.). As far as Awakening goes, Dark Flier falls victim to the hybrid problem, that being that most units cannot use both of its weapon types well, which is especially apparent when you're using weapons that have anywhere from 1 to 3 might running off a low magic stat (why hello there Cordelia). In the context of Fates, well, I don't really see your point since there's only one wind spell, and two, mages suffer WTD against Pegasus knights. About the only other anti-mage class is ninjas. Regarding Kinshi Knights, they at least have a use, which is more than I can say for Malig Knights. And just what classes do you see as "decent" and "OP"?

I honestly fail to see what's so great about the Samurai class line - most of the skills associated with it are pretty lackluster. Durability wise, he only gains 1 HP (he gets 1 defense out of it as well, but that's canceled out by katana weapons dropping defenses).

On 3/18/2018 at 9:10 AM, mangasdeouf said:

LOL Vanessa. She's useful but in no grind I couldn't bring her close to good. Why? because many early chapters have fighters/bandits who can easily 2HKO her whie she barely has 55% hit rate with close to inexistant damage with the only weapon that doesn't make her loose 3+ speed so she has a little chance to dodge 1/5th of the time, or there are so many ennemies and some rushing at you by groups or waves that she can't take them by herself (chapter 4/5) and some archers. She has trash-tier base stats (especially 11 base speed with 5 CON so sh has 8 speed with an iron lance meaning 16+5=21 avoid at level 1 with her weapon type's base weapon and can only double ennemies with =<4 speed LMAO only to deal less damage in 2 hits than 1 of Gilliam's attacks that also has the same accuracy while he starts at C lances, closer to B and A which respectively allow him to hold a hero/silver lance even if only the latter is available for a good chunk of the game). Vanessa's final stats make her a plane for carrying combat units. I've already used her in the final chapters. Even at level 20/20 of any of the 2 classes she is so useless. 20/10 hero Gerik is better than 20/20 Vanessa. 20/5 Cormag is way better than her just because he has around 19 speed, maybe a bit more if RNG blessed, pierce skill negating defence, at least 4 more points in def, equal luck or not too far, 10-15 more HP (OK I exaggerate a little but he's got more physical bulk she can ever have) and he doesn't have to deal with E-rank second weapon (LULZ at this useless weapon rank in no grind it's only useful for chapter 9 Eirika's route and you could as well fly some combat unit to the southern village to take the rapier and then fly it again to the western village and joining your paladin fighting for the dracoshield village's sake).

Tana is Cordelia, in love with the prince, wants to be useful (wants to be the best for Cordelia), more offence-oriented than her competition.

Florina starts so weak she can get close to ORKO by a soldier (I wrote close, not straight ORKO) so if she gets RNG screwed (in no growths emblem) she goes straight down to benchville when you get your second flyer who will probably have better bases (FE6 is so boring for me I'm ROFLstomping it with Marcus and a few hack stat boosters just to read the storry but I couldn't be less annoyed by a FE game, or maybe should I just put cap stats on anyone I intend to use on Nightmare and rush to the end, or make Marcus a Manakete with unbreakable dragonstone and capped stats and 15 movement). Starting weaker than Eirika is not something I call good (Eirika has Rapier to OS cavaliers for some exp at least and she has the CON to use it, unlike Florina with 4 CON, even worse than Vanessa and Lute whose tomes are only 1 point over her weight and who has monstrous damage output all the game so she doesn't even need anything else than fire tomes). I prefer using Syrene in FE8 than Florina in FE6 (she's only taking a few level ups to become able to do what she has to do without insta-death). And Syrene has +1 CON over the class's bases instead of -1. And she has direct access to fili shield. And good weapon ranks.

Honestly if it weren't for the spider in a non-LTC chapter 6 or Eirika's route full success (saving both villages and getting the bonus item) I'd probably give 0 level up to any pegasus in no grind and just wait for Cormag to show up. He's far superior to both pegasi and so much better than Syrene by the time you get her. Anyway TSS doesn't require any flyer to finish the game easily, just easier for side objectives (and bonus gold if you don't intend to give the promotion item to Neimi).

I wasn't aware that two earlygame chapters was "many". Also, chapter 4 is monsters, most of which are pathetic (bases wise, Revenants have big fat goose eggs across the board except for strength, which is 2. Let that sink in for a while.). Also, you gravely overestimate SS enemies. They're not so threatening that SHINY GREEN NUMBERS are needed to stand a chance against them... also, weapon rank is hardly a concern in FE8 - it ain't like it takes forever to get to a respectable weapon rank.

Tana also starts underleveled, in addition to missing a good deal of the game (and she either starts with bad weapons or can't contribute for most of her join chapter).

Loldiers are cannon fodder to the extreme - their bases make the likes of Donnel's look good. They can't ORKO anything because they can't double with their wondrous goose egg for AS, let alone come close to doing so. Also, cavaliers often come with lances, leaving Eirika and her Rapier at WTD, meaning she likely can't one-shot them and thus eats a counter. And Florina is not in FE6.

Cormag might be better than them, but that is honestly hollow praise when SS is cake.

On 3/18/2018 at 10:04 AM, DragonFlames said:

To be fair, I found Florina and Tana to be at least somewhat good units, but I would agree with the notion of Wyvern Riders / Knights / whatevers to be the superior option usually.
Jill and Haar are superior to Marcia and Tanith in FE9 and 10.
Heath is superior to the pegs in FE7 (though he does come in a little late)
Cormag is better than Tana, Vanessa and Syrene in FE8
Beruka and *retch* Camilla are better than Subaki and Hinoka in Fates

But then there's Sumia and Cynthia in Awakening and Shiida in Shadow Dragon, both of whom are fantastic units, even as Pegasus Knights.
In Sumia and Cynthia's case, they're far superior to Cherche and Gerome even without taking Galeforce into account.
And Shiida, who may I remind you has the most broken weapon in Shadow Dragon in form of the Win(g) Spear, promotes to Wyvern, so... best of both worlds, I guess.
 

I find it kinda hard to compare the pegs and wyverns in Fates since they're mostly on opposite sides of the game (the mostly is because you do get Scarlet on the Birthright side of the game). But honestly, I'd say that aside from Haar in RD, Camilla, and Cormag, most wyverns fail to stand out (Heath is underleveled and joins late, Jill comes underleveled in PoR, and has lame base stats aside from speed in RD, and Haar comes late in PoR, just for the games you mentioned. PoR Jill and Heath also don't have the bases to be shoe-ins for a team slot, nor the growths to justify the extra work).