The problem with Laguz and Beast units...

[Shoblongoo]

11 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

the entire series has a total of six Bird Tribe units.

Naesela, Neuluchi, Vika, Tibarn, Ulki, Jannaff, Reyson, Rafael, Leanne...

and if you really wanna get technical, Sephiran (they'll probably add Sephiran in and some point just as a regular old infantry tome unit, but I wouldn't complain in the slightest if they gave him his heron wings and made him a flier) 

It doesn't really matter how many there are. Their common classification is that they're flying type units; thats of no bearing on what colors you assign them to (i.e. thats like saying Halloween Nowi, Spring Camilla, and F! Morgan all have to be in the same color because there's such a small number of flying tome users)

The only thing that would make absolutely no sense is if these units were introduced and for some weird reason--they didn't count as fliers, and you couldn't run them with team buffs on a dedicated flier emblem squad. 


EDIT: Exclude Rafael from units that belong on flier emblem

Edited June 15, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[Othin]

6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The problem is not what they can do. It's what makes sense to do.

Unlike dragons, where there is a large enough number of characters that could be represented, considering we not only have a decent smattering of playable dragons (helped by the fact that Corrin and Kana have gendered variants), but also the fact that a large proportion of the game's final bosses are dragons, the entire series has a total of six Bird Tribe units. That's two for each color at the absolute maximum excluding alts. It simply doesn't make sense to split them by tribe and then again by color.

There are enough beasts to split. Birds can be consolidated in colorless. That keeps the colors balanced among weapon types.

10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Everyone who has been playing for a while should have at least one copy of Fortify Dragons lying around (from male Kana). Go and take a look at the Skill Inheritance restriction list in the skill description. Tell me how many more icons will fit on that line before it wraps and looks hideous.

(Actually, it's a pretty nice coincidence that the answer is "three".)

There's a reason why the staff weapons and assist skills list who can learn the skill as opposed to who can't.

Exp/Valor skills already wrap around, so I don't think that's something they consider unacceptable.

"List who can learn the skill rather than who can't" is a solution that would work for both Exp/Valor skills and any others like Fortify Dragons, if they decide dealing with that is a priority.

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Let's be honest. That was a publicity stunt.

The only other colored bow users I can actually see them adding to the game are characters with unique weapons that have an elemental relationship.

I think at some point they'll start adding random seasonal colored bow users just because they can. Not much reason for them not to.

16 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Weapons are the only skills that don't list their Skill Inheritance restrictions. What's the point of making things more complicated than the simple system we already have?

If you're really concerned about not adding more icons so the SI screen, for one thing.

Like I said, I don't consider it likely, but it would address your concerns while just adding a line to the descriptions of a handful of skills.

[Interdimensional Observer]

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I know they don't have a reputation for not making dumb decisions (ignoring the dumb things that the localization team has done because those don't affect this), but I'd hope someone at least has the aesthetic sense to consider those "Strike" weapon names to be ugly.

 

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Everyone who has been playing for a while should have at least one copy of Fortify Dragons lying around (from male Kana). Go and take a look at the Skill Inheritance restriction list in the skill description. Tell me how many more icons will fit on that line before it wraps and looks hideous.

 

And getting to aesthetics, well now we're entering more of a subjective zone. Not totally, but you can't quite convince people the same way you can in stats arguments.

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Cats also have fangs. Lions, wolves, and tigers also have claws. Hawks also have beaks. Ravens also have talons.

In fact, in Path of Radiance, lions and tigers used claws instead of fangs and hawks used beaks instead of talons.

 

They messed with distinctions between PoR and RD, they can mess with distinction again to just have Strikes. Or they go by your suggestion. Whichever they should choose.

27 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

the entire series has a total of six Bird Tribe units. That's two for each color at the absolute maximum excluding alts.

And that is perfectly fine. People have had to put up with the same or worse so far for some unit types, like Bow Cavalry.

 

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think at some point they'll start adding random seasonal colored bow users just because they can. Not much reason for them not to.

They haven't added a single ordinary New Heroes Bow user since the addition of coloring right? We won't know until they do. Coloring normal Bow units could be good, since it let two characters with identical stat spreads serve different purposes.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Shoblongoo said:

Naesela, Neuluchi, Vika, Tibarn, Ulki, Jannaff, Reyson, Rafael, Leanne...

The Herons don't count. We're only counting units with beak and talon weapons, which the Herons cannot use (and are not expected to be able to use if implemented).

So there are six units that would use beak and talon weapons.

 

2 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

Their common classification is that they're flying type units;

No, in fact, it is not. The common classification is that they use bird-type (talon and beak) strike weapons.

Nowi is red because she uses a red tome. Shigure is blue because he uses a lance.

 

7 minutes ago, Shoblongoo said:

(i.e. thats like saying Halloween Nowi, Spring Camilla, and F! Morgan all have to be in the same color because there's such a small number of flying tome users)

No, for several reasons:

1. Unlike the hypothetical "red beak/talon" that would hold a maximum of two units plus potential alts, "red tome" has nineteen members currently implemented. This isn't a matter of weapon-movement type combinations, this is strictly an issue of the weapon type being horribly under-populated.
2. Unlike strike weapons where there is a very small number of characters that could even qualify as alts (namely, only units that are already strike users), there are a lot of characters (literally every character in the series) that qualify for a flying tome alt.

 

1 minute ago, Othin said:

There are enough beasts to split. Birds can be consolidated in colorless. That keeps the colors balanced among weapon types.

As much as that does solve the problem, the solution is inelegant and... frankly, icky.

Colorless is actually a very horrible color to be as it relegates you to exactly one of two possible damage-dealing roles (assuming you don't have armor-like stats): pure offense or single-use counterkill. It's the exact reason why Gamepedia admits that they literally don't know how to tier female Grima.

 

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

Exp/Valor skills already wrap around, so I don't think that's something they consider unacceptable.

Oh god. That looks horrible.

 

In the end, I still believe that there is no reason to use a complicated system that works when a simpler system works even better. The fewer strings attached to all moving parts, the better.

I find not good reason for strikes to behave like breaths when they equally make sense to behave like swords, lances, and axes.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

I find not good reason for strikes to behave like breaths when they equally make sense to behave like swords, lances, and axes.

Except there is no such thing as a strike weapon triangle. And even here, you use the word "equally", implying that you admit your grounds aren't all that great.

A weakness-based "triangle"? Like the Thunder weakness of Dragon Laguz was ever actually explained in Tellius? It is still faulty grounds, creates grounds by which Elincia should be Blue, because she is weak to all Wind magic in both games.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Because weapons being called "Sharp Strike" and "Long Strike" and "Poison Strike" sound utterly dumb compared to "Sharp Fang" and "Long Talon" and "Poison Claw".

Maybe I have gotten used to it, but strike does not sound that bad. There is already Swift Strike and Mirror Strike and it sounds okay as skills, it just sounds inconsistent with all the Blows around.

I guess they can always resort to calling the Weapons "stones," like Beaststones and Dragonstones from the main series.

Edited June 15, 2018 by XRay

[Shoblongoo]

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

1. Unlike the hypothetical "red beak/talon" that would hold a maximum of two units plus potential alts, "red tome" has nineteen members currently implemented. This isn't a matter of weapon-movement type combinations, this is strictly an issue of the weapon type being horribly under-populated.
2. Unlike strike weapons where there is a very small number of characters that could even qualify as alts (namely, only units that are already strike users), there are a lot of characters (literally every character in the series) that qualify for a flying tome alt.

 

So???  Its a distinction without a difference. 

Tibarn and Naesela get introduced as fliers with custom animations and weapons--Tibarn has [Royal Talons] as his weapon and is a blue flier. Naesala has [Royal Beak] as his weapon and is a green flier. Naesela has [Raven Beak] as his weapon and is Blue flier.  

Weapons come with a custom rule: *cannot be inherited or unequipped*

Simple, makes sense, and works fine. 

Edited June 15, 2018 by Shoblongoo

[XRay]

33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I find not good reason for strikes to behave like breaths when they equally make sense to behave like swords, lances, and axes.

 

28 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And even here, you use the word "equally", implying that you admit your grounds aren't all that great.

If the developers conclude that strikes could equally work like breaths and physical Weapons, would not it make sense to do it the lazy way and just copy the breaths template?

They can still choose to restrict Laguz to their respective colors if they wish, but they also leave the option open to mix things up if they wish.

Although by the same token, they could also just lazily copy pasta the physical Weapons too and just find and replace whatever code that needs to change.

[Ice Dragon]

7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And that is perfectly fine. People have had to put up with the same or worse so far for some unit types, like Bow Cavalry.

There's a difference, though, and a fairly big one:

The list of two red beaks/talons is inclusive of every unit in the series. The only alts that could be added to the weapon type are characters that are Bird Tribe to begin with.

The list of two bow cavalry is inclusive of only characters so far implemented in Heroes. There are a lot more bow cavalry in the series, and the class is a reclass candidate for any character in the series as a seasonal alt.

 

10 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

They haven't added a single ordinary New Heroes Bow user since the addition of coloring right? We won't know until they do. Coloring normal Bow units could be good, since it let two characters with identical stat spreads serve different purposes.

Colored bows are literally just tomes that target Def and don't have access to Litrblade, meaning they rely heavily on having a unique weapon to differentiate themselves from tome users of the same color.

 

14 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Except there is no such thing as a strike weapon triangle. And even here, you use the word "equally", implying that you admit your grounds aren't all that great.

Thunder isn't strong against swords in the main series games, nor is dark effective against wind, and only a few games have the anima triangle and the anima-light-dark triangle.

I also misspoke for the "equally" piece, which is what happens when shots are being fired this quickly. I apologize for being wrong in my word choice when I so adamantly expect others to meet my high standards. "More than equally" would have been more appropriate. The justification to behave like breaths is only the superficial association that they are both transforming unit types. The justification to behave like standard melee weapons has grounding both in the original game mechanics and Heroes's game mechanics.

 

21 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

It is still faulty grounds, creates grounds by which Elincia should be Blue, because she is weak to all Wind magic in both games.

SWORDS ARE NOT BLUE.

Swords are weak to lances. Elincia uses a sword and is weak to lances. This is consistent. Fliers are weak to wind. Heroes implemented this specifically for Excalibur. Elincia is a flier and is weak to Excalibur. This is consistent. Fliers are weak to bows. Elincia is a flier and is weak to bows. This is consistent.

We are designing weapon types here, not individual characters. Swords are not uniformly weak to wind. Flying is weak to wind, but only in some games and sometimes not to all weapons of the wind category. Hence, they are weak to Excalibur in Heroes.

Beast Laguz are uniformly weak to fire. Dragon Laguz are uniformly weak to thunder. Bird Laguz are uniformly weak to wind. What specifically calls them out differently than, say, "fliers" as a grouping mechanism is the fact that each of the groupings (beast, dragon, and bird) corresponds exactly to one weapon type.

You are picking at straws with inane counterexamples that don't actually work.

[Interdimensional Observer]

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You are picking at straws with inane counterexamples that don't actually work.

I never specified how strong the grounds were, only that they, in some measure, existed.

18 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

and the class is a reclass candidate for any character in the series as a seasonal alt.

And I'm sure they could easily make Seasonal Breath and Strike if they wanted to. Give Sain Perfumed Breath for a Love Resounds- magical cologne lets him take dragon form and kill things with very stinky and corrosive Eau de Casanova. A Cute and Creepy Black Kitty Elise armed with Familiar Strike could work.

 

The sparks always seem to fly whenever we discuss Laguz, not inappropriate given Tellius is all about that in a different way. I don't think our differences will ever be resolved. Little point in argument when we're both set in our ways. Let us just wait and see who is right/closer to being right in the end, and who is wrong. May the loser you or I not whine too much when things come to light.

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

As much as that does solve the problem, the solution is inelegant and... frankly, icky.

Colorless is actually a very horrible color to be as it relegates you to exactly one of two possible damage-dealing roles (assuming you don't have armor-like stats): pure offense or single-use counterkill. It's the exact reason why Gamepedia admits that they literally don't know how to tier female Grima.

It's way more elegant than adding blue and green strike but no red strike.

It would certainly limit the effectiveness of any birds, but there wouldn't be many birds, and they'd still have fans. Tibarn and Naesala being kings would help justify giving them flashy personal skills, which wouldn't necessarily make them good, but it'd help them stand out regardless.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

In the end, I still believe that there is no reason to use a complicated system that works when a simpler system works even better. The fewer strings attached to all moving parts, the better.

I find not good reason for strikes to behave like breaths when they equally make sense to behave like swords, lances, and axes.

Then how about the simplest system? One strike weapon type with red/blue/green variation and absolutely no inheritance. No moving parts at all, and I'd say it's the most accurate to the Tellius games.

I don't think treating strikes like conventional weapons makes as much sense as treating them like breaths at all. In both the Tellius games and the 3DS games, breaths are treated exactly the same as (non-breath) strikes, even sharing a weapon type.

30 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

SWORDS ARE NOT BLUE.

Swords are weak to lances. Elincia uses a sword and is weak to lances. This is consistent. Fliers are weak to wind. Heroes implemented this specifically for Excalibur. Elincia is a flier and is weak to Excalibur. This is consistent. Fliers are weak to bows. Elincia is a flier and is weak to bows. This is consistent.

We are designing weapon types here, not individual characters. Swords are not uniformly weak to wind. Flying is weak to wind, but only in some games and sometimes not to all weapons of the wind category. Hence, they are weak to Excalibur in Heroes.

Beast Laguz are uniformly weak to fire. Dragon Laguz are uniformly weak to thunder. Bird Laguz are uniformly weak to wind. What specifically calls them out differently than, say, "fliers" as a grouping mechanism is the fact that each of the groupings (beast, dragon, and bird) corresponds exactly to one weapon type.

You are picking at straws with inane counterexamples that don't actually work.

You could also say that Tellius fire magic is effective against beasts, Tellius thunder magic is effective against dragons, and Tellius wind magic is effective against birds and other fliers. Heroes wind magic is not effective against fliers, with the exception of Excalibur, and Excalibur would still be effective against bird Laguz whether they're blue or not.

[Interdimensional Observer]

27 minutes ago, Othin said:

You could also say that Tellius fire magic is effective against beasts, Tellius thunder magic is effective against dragons, and Tellius wind magic is effective against birds and other fliers. Heroes wind magic is not effective against fliers, with the exception of Excalibur, and Excalibur would still be effective against bird Laguz whether they're blue or not.

And you do have a point here. Since invariably the duos of Taguel, Kitsune, and Wolfskin are going to get into FEH, and they'll be lumped with the Beasts in terms of integration, since there are only six of them and hence not worthy of getting separate treatment.

If they're weak to Fire Magic, it'll make no sense for them since Panne takes Valflames to the face no better or worse than Nagas or Mjolnir in Awakening (factoring out their differences in Might and Valflame's +5 Magic obviously). "Authenticity" for someone- Tellius or Afatening, is going to have to take a hit.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Interdimensional Observer

[Ice Dragon]

22 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And I'm sure they could easily make Seasonal Breath and Strike if they wanted to. Give Sain Perfumed Breath for a Love Resounds- magical cologne lets him take dragon form and kill things with very stinky and corrosive Eau de Casanova. A Cute and Creepy Black Kitty Elise armed with Familiar Strike could work.

The animation for breath weapons is too high for most units to use without weird animations. Even Myrrh has to do some weird head tilt to match the height that breath weapons appear at.

 

23 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

May the loser you or I not whine too much when things come to light.

I mean, if they do something dumb, I'll be sure to point out that their choices were dumb. (Like their recent rework to the castle screen and the menus.)

 

13 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's way more elegant than adding blue and green strike but no red strike.

Dragon Laguz would obviously be red strikes.

 

15 minutes ago, Othin said:

Then how about the simplest system? One strike weapon type with red/blue/green variation and absolutely no inheritance. No moving parts at all, and I'd say it's the most accurate to the Tellius games.

Um... passive skills? Maelstrom (non-Heron birds only)? Quickclaw (beasts only)? Howl (beasts only)?

You know, the things that could actually set Laguz units apart from being "just another physical melee weapon"?

 

18 minutes ago, Othin said:

I don't think treating strikes like conventional weapons makes as much sense as treating them like breaths at all. In both the Tellius games and the 3DS games, breaths are treated exactly the same as (non-breath) strikes, even sharing a weapon type.

Exactly why Dragon Tribe units are red strikes.

 

19 minutes ago, Othin said:

You could also say that Tellius fire magic is effective against beasts, Tellius thunder magic is effective against dragons, and Tellius wind magic is effective against birds and other fliers.

Um... I literally have been saying that the entire time?

 

32 minutes ago, Othin said:

Heroes wind magic is not effective against fliers, with the exception of Excalibur, and Excalibur would still be effective against bird Laguz whether they're blue or not.

But wind magic would always be effective against birds if all birds are blue (not because they are flying, but because they are birds), which is fully consistent with fire being effective against beasts and thunder being effective against dragons.

[Othin]

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dragon Laguz would obviously be red strikes.

Treating dragon Laguz different from other dragons also seems pretty inelegant to me. Would Falchion's skill description show the four breaths plus red strike? Not having skills like Falchion and Fortify Dragons interact with dragon Laguz would be downright bizarre.

5 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Um... passive skills? Maelstrom (non-Heron birds only)? Quickclaw (beasts only)? Howl (beasts only)?

You know, the things that could actually set Laguz units apart from being "just another physical melee weapon"?

Sounds good to me. Is there a problem with making them work with my proposal?

With a single strike weapon type for both beasts and birds, beasts are strike infantry and birds are strike fliers, so any passives meant to work for just a single type of Laguz could be restricted to that subset. Kind of like how Wrath and Steady Breath are restricted in terms of both weapon and movement type.

12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Um... I literally have been saying that the entire time?

No, you've been saying Laguz are weak to those elements. I'm saying we should think of effective bonus as a property of the attacker, not the defender, and (with the exception of Excalibur), attackers using elemental magic in Heroes do not have that property.

If Laguz were added as some sort of guest characters to any other FE game with a magic system we've seen outside of Tellius, they would not force in elemental weaknesses. Dragons would have normal dragon weaknesses, birds would have normal flier weaknesses, and beasts would have normal beast weaknesses (or no weaknesses, if the game doesn't have normal beast weaknesses). There's no reason Heroes has to be different and shoehorn in those weaknesses by using the weapon triangle to cover what was originally an effective bonus.

21 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

But wind magic would always be effective against birds if all birds are blue (not because they are flying, but because they are birds), which is fully consistent with fire being effective against beasts and thunder being effective against dragons.

This is what I'm saying is a property of Tellius magic, not Heroes magic.

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Othin said:

Treating dragon Laguz different from other dragons also seems pretty inelegant to me. Would Falchion's skill description show the four breaths plus red strike? Not having skills like Falchion and Fortify Dragons interact with dragon Laguz would be downright bizarre.

Dragon Laguz are weird in that they have a similar physical form and weapon as other dragons, but mechanically more similar to other strike users.

I can see both having Falchion be effective against dragon Laguz and not being effective against dragon Laguz being perfectly reasonable. Either one makes as much sense as the other (for the same reason why Binding Blade is not effective against dragon knights in Heroes despite being so in the original source).

 

53 minutes ago, Othin said:

No, you've been saying Laguz are weak to those elements. I'm saying we should think of effective bonus as a property of the attacker, not the defender, and (with the exception of Excalibur), attackers using elemental magic in Heroes do not have that property.

It takes two to tango. Whether it is a property of the attacker or defender really doesn't matter except if you need to extend the effect to new functionality.

Loptous being weak to Naga (and dragon-effective weapons) is a property of Loptous in Heroes, but a property of Naga (in the form of disabling Loptous's effect) in Genealogy.

Making all beast Laguz green automatically means that all red tomes now and in the future will have weapon triangle advantage over them, but making red tomes deal effective damage against beast Laguz requires all existing and future red tomes to have an effect added to make them deal effective damage.

 

1 hour ago, Othin said:

This is what I'm saying is a property of Tellius magic, not Heroes magic.

By the "it takes two to tango" logic, it's a property both of Tellius magic and of Laguz. "Tellius fire magic is effective against beast units" is equally correct as "beast units are weak to fire magic".

I really don't see any reason for them to not capitalize on this as a neat tie-in to the original mechanics (similarly to how they made Loptous weak to dragon-effective weapons).

[Othin]

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Dragon Laguz are weird in that they have a similar physical form and weapon as other dragons, but mechanically more similar to other strike users.

I can see both having Falchion be effective against dragon Laguz and not being effective against dragon Laguz being perfectly reasonable. Either one makes as much sense as the other (for the same reason why Binding Blade is not effective against dragon knights in Heroes despite being so in the original source).

What about Fortify Dragons? I think it would be hard to justify Fortify Dragons not working on dragon Laguz. And the "dragon" category should be defined the same way for both.

Also, bear in mind that FE2 mages use tomes in Heroes. Heroes really doesn't seem to fuss much over that kind of distinction.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

It takes two to tango. Whether it is a property of the attacker or defender really doesn't matter except if you need to extend the effect to new functionality.

Loptous being weak to Naga (and dragon-effective weapons) is a property of Loptous in Heroes, but a property of Naga (in the form of disabling Loptous's effect) in Genealogy.

Making all beast Laguz green automatically means that all red tomes now and in the future will have weapon triangle advantage over them, but making red tomes deal effective damage against beast Laguz requires all existing and future red tomes to have an effect added to make them deal effective damage.

Heroes magic vs Laguz is new functionality in the first place. 

Tellius fire magic has the "effective against beasts" property. Heroes fire magic does not, at least not in general. An inheritable fire tome could be added in the future with effectiveness against beasts, as could a thunder tome for dragons and a wind tome for fliers. Beasts should be weak to things with the "effective against beasts" property, but they don't need to be weak to all fire magic in a game where fire magic does not (normally) have that property.

In Fates, Kaze and Saizo got weapon triangle disadvantage from using daggers against axes and bows. Takumi and Setsuna got weapon triangle disadvantage from using bows against swords and tomes. Odin got weapon triangle disadvantage from using tomes against lances and daggers. In Heroes, none of those weaknesses exist (unless raven tomes are involved), because the relations are different here, and that's okay. And a relation that's different from Tellius is that fire tomes do not default to having the "effective against beasts" property.

1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

By the "it takes two to tango" logic, it's a property both of Tellius magic and of Laguz. "Tellius fire magic is effective against beast units" is equally correct as "beast units are weak to fire magic".

I really don't see any reason for them to not capitalize on this as a neat tie-in to the original mechanics (similarly to how they made Loptous weak to dragon-effective weapons).

I don't think that's a good way to look at it. In FE6, legendary weapons and Wyrmslayers beat Manaketes like Fae and Wyvern Lords like Narcian. Fae and Narcian have the dragon classification, and legendary weapons and Wyrmslayers have the property of being effective against things with the dragon classification. In FE8, where there's a different set of weapons with effectiveness against dragons, that doesn't reflect a change in what it means to be a Wyvern Lord or a Manakete. That's a change in the weapons.

In Heroes, Narcian no longer has the dragon classification, so he's no longer weak to any of that stuff. That's a change to him. Fae is still classified as a dragon, and so she's still weak to a fully upgraded Binding Blade, because it still kills dragons. But she's no longer weak to Armads, because Armads is no longer effective against dragons. That's a change to Armads, not to Fae. Or, to use a more story-relevant comparison, Heroes Ninian isn't weak to Heroes Durandal. That's not a change to Ninian, she's still weak to things that beat dragons, it's a change to Durandal.

They could have found some way to clean all that up and stay consistent with the original, as the same sort of neat tie-in your describing here. But they didn't, because it would have been overly restrictive and more trouble than it was worth. Loptous was worth it, because all they had to do was give Julius's weapon a special ability. They didn't even need to change his color. But for your proposal, they would need to restrict every dragon Laguz to red (with all the fuss of classifying them separately from other dragons), every bird Laguz to blue, every beast Laguz to green, and I don't even know what they'd do with the 3DS beasts. That's the same kind of "more trouble than it's worth" as forcing dragon effectiveness onto every FE6 legendary weapon or putting Ninian in green so Durandal would have WTA against her. It's putting a big constraint on their options (and complicating the color symmetry of weapon types) for a type of thing they've demonstrated a willingness to handwave rather than implementing precisely. Precedent suggests it doesn't make sense.

[Ice Dragon]

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

What about Fortify Dragons? I think it would be hard to justify Fortify Dragons not working on dragon Laguz. And the "dragon" category should be defined the same way for both.

It really doesn't matter. If Fortify Strikes works and Fortify Dragons doesn't, I don't see any problem. If both work, I'm fine with that, too. They're in this weird gray area where I don't think it's a problem if they leaned either direction.

 

6 minutes ago, Othin said:

Also, bear in mind that FE2 mages use tomes in Heroes. Heroes really doesn't seem to fuss much over that kind of distinction.

The weapon type is technically called "magic" and not "tomes" in both English and Japanese. They just chose to represent all of Echoes's magic with a tome so that their animations made sense when switching weapons.

Or, you know, a bouquet.

 

8 minutes ago, Othin said:

Heroes magic vs Laguz is new functionality in the first place. 

It doesn't have to be.

Simply using the weapon triangle instead of effective damage uses the game's existing mechanics to get a similar enough effect without having to retroactively change existing content or introduce new content specifically for the purpose.

That is elegance in practice.

 

12 minutes ago, Othin said:

But for your proposal, they would need to restrict every dragon Laguz to red (with all the fuss of classifying them separately from other dragons), every bird Laguz to blue, every beast Laguz to green,

How exactly is this any more restrictive than restricting every sword to red, every lance to blue, and every axe to green?

Many characters have classes that are incapable of using more than one weapon, and many characters have legendary weapons that effectively necessitate that they have a specific weapon type over their other options.

If it is unfair that Kurthnaga is restricted to be red for being a dragon Laguz, how is it not unfair that Nephenee is restricted to be blue for being a Halberdier or that Hector is restricted to be green for having Armads as a personal legendary weapon?

What makes Laguz so special that being bucketed into one color for having the same type of weapon is unfair when all of the physical melee weapon users are already bucketed in the exact same way?

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

If it is unfair that Kurthnaga is restricted to be red for being a dragon Laguz, how is it not unfair that Nephenee is restricted to be blue for being a Halberdier or that Hector is restricted to be green for having Armads as a personal legendary weapon?

What makes Laguz so special that being bucketed into one color for having the same type of weapon is unfair when all of the physical melee weapon users are already bucketed in the exact same way?

The color system is ultimately based on the Weapon Triangle and less so the Trinity of Magic, neither of which the Laguz have anything to do with. Nephenee is "Blue" in both PoR and RD with no other choice, she is Soldier/Halberdier! People are used to her being restricted by her weapon type, it makes sense. You really chose a poor example here with a mono-weapon class. You couldn't have named Soren?

[Ice Dragon]

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The color system is ultimately based on the Weapon Triangle and less so the Trinity of Magic, neither of which the Laguz have anything to do with.

The Laguz have everything to do with the three branches of anima magic. Don't pretend like they don't. One of their defining traits in terms of gameplay was that each tribe had one element of anima magic that they were weak to and that they shared with no other tribe.

Why else do you think they made Bolting so damned hard to get in Radiant Dawn?

 

1 hour ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Nephenee is "Blue" in both PoR and RD with no other choice, she is Soldier/Halberdier! People are used to her being restricted by her weapon type, it makes sense.

Which is exactly why I chose Nephenee and not Soren. Kurthnaga is restricted to using breath-type strikes. There is nothing different between Nephenee being restricted to lances and Kurthnaga being restricted to breath-type strikes.

Why is it unfair if all breath-type strikes are bucketed into one color, but not unfair that all lances are bucketed into one color?

 

Colors are not arbitrary in Heroes... well, at least until male female Kana came along and messed everything up. All non-dragons have a logical reason for being the color that they are (i.e. they are equipped with a weapon of that color), and even the dragons were predictable in their color until male female Kana (I predicted Ninian, Myrrh, and male Grima correctly based on my model from launch, and female Robin's color was obvious as the publicity stunt that it was) based on the type of dragon that they were (Bantu will obviously be red, any legendary Tiki will be a color that isn't blue, the big boss dragons will not be blue either). Legendary Lyn's color was also obviously predictable based on the fact that Mulagir is associated with wind.

It makes the most sense to make weapons link to color and not assign colors arbitrarily on a whim to individual characters.

Edited June 16, 2018 by Ice Dragon
Female Kana is the green one that doesn't make sense.

[Othin]

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It really doesn't matter. If Fortify Strikes works and Fortify Dragons doesn't, I don't see any problem. If both work, I'm fine with that, too. They're in this weird gray area where I don't think it's a problem if they leaned either direction.

You might not care, but players less familiar with the lore would find it very confusing. A key part of game design is avoiding having mechanics work in ways that conflict with typical player expectations when possible, especially newer players. Players see a skill that boosts dragons and a weapon that kills dragons, they expect them to work on dragons, not just "dragons except those new ones with a different icon for some reason".

What would the skill descriptions even say, to clarify that they mean only one type of dragon? "At start of turn, grants Def/Res+6 to adjacent breath allies for 1 turn."? What would the weapons for dragon Laguz be called, to not be confused with "breath dragons"? It'd be such a clusterfuck, and an easily avoidable one.

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The weapon type is technically called "magic" and not "tomes" in both English and Japanese. They just chose to represent all of Echoes's magic with a tome so that their animations made sense when switching weapons.

Or, you know, a bouquet.

And what that adds up to is that FE2 mages use tomes in Heroes, like I said.

If they aren't going to worry about the difference between people who cast spells with or without tomes, I don't see why they'd worry about the difference between people who turn into dragons with or without dragonstones. FE2 mages are still using magic, and dragon Laguz are still using dragon breath.

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It doesn't have to be.

Simply using the weapon triangle instead of effective damage uses the game's existing mechanics to get a similar enough effect without having to retroactively change existing content or introduce new content specifically for the purpose.

That is elegance in practice.

They've never used the weapon triangle as a stand-in for effective bonus in the past, and they don't need to start now.

Having beast units be categorically worse on both offense and defense against swords, fire magic, dark magic, red breath, red bows, and dragon Laguz breath is kind of a stretch of a substitute for being categorically worse specifically on defense against just fire magic.

42 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

How exactly is this any more restrictive than restricting every sword to red, every lance to blue, and every axe to green?

Many characters have classes that are incapable of using more than one weapon, and many characters have legendary weapons that effectively necessitate that they have a specific weapon type over their other options.

If it is unfair that Kurthnaga is restricted to be red for being a dragon Laguz, how is it not unfair that Nephenee is restricted to be blue for being a Halberdier or that Hector is restricted to be green for having Armads as a personal legendary weapon?

What makes Laguz so special that being bucketed into one color for having the same type of weapon is unfair when all of the physical melee weapon users are already bucketed in the exact same way?

Sword is "red melee", lance is "blue melee", and axe is "green melee". In terms of core functionality, the three melee weapon types are as symmetric as the three colors of tomes.

I don't think any of that is unfair, because I wasn't talking about fairness at all. I think something along the lines of "cats and taguels are red, tigers and kitsune are blue, lions, wolves, and wolfskin are green" would be a perfectly reasonable set of constraints, and that's no less restrictive than the stuff you described with Nephenee and Hector. What I'm opposed to is taking an entire category on the level of beasts and dumping it into one color, because that's the type of category Heroes has a precedent of either spreading among all three colors or restricting to colorless. I think it's significant for IS to retain the option of making red beasts and blue beasts and green beasts rather than just one of those three, even if the color assignment of any individual beast is set in stone.

Speaking of the 3DS shifters, where would your proposal fit them in?

Edited June 16, 2018 by Othin

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

What would the skill descriptions even say, to clarify that they mean only one type of dragon?

All effective weapons indicate the icons for the exact unit types they have effective damage against.

"Breath" or even "magic breath" is the most logical name for the weapon type.

 

4 minutes ago, Othin said:

What would the weapons for dragon Laguz be called, to not be confused with "breath dragons"?

"Red strike".

As I said, the situation would work fine either way whether red strikes counted as dragons or not. The writers will figure something out. Or at least the Japanese writers will.

Honestly, in this setup, I'm expecting red strike to be lumped in with the breath weapons anyways for sanity reasons, but whether or not they are doesn't change anything major.

 

5 minutes ago, Othin said:

If they aren't going to worry about the difference between people who cast spells with or without tomes, I don't see why they'd worry about the difference between people who turn into dragons with or without dragonstones. FE2 mages are still using magic, and dragon Laguz are still using dragon breath.

As I think it was you who mentioned (too many people in this thread arguing against me for me to remember), they're there as strike weapons to bring balance to the fact that blue and green strikes are represented.

 

9 minutes ago, Othin said:

They've never used the weapon triangle as a stand-in for effective bonus in the past, and they don't need to start now.

That doesn't change the fact that the solution is elegant: It solves the problem in the simplest way without being too simple.

The point is to adapt to the medium, not bend the world around you to make something work out.

 

19 minutes ago, Othin said:

Having beast units be categorically worse on both offense and defense against swords, fire magic, dark magic, red breath, red bows, and dragon Laguz breath is kind of a stretch of a substitute for being categorically worse specifically on defense against just fire magic.

And that's different from axes already being worse on both offense and defense against swords, fire magic, dark magic, red breath, and red bows... how? How is the implementation of the existing melee-magic combined triangle not already a stretch from the norm?

 

22 minutes ago, Othin said:

because that's the type of category Heroes has a precedent of either spreading among all three colors or restricting to colorless.

It's also the type of category that falls super neatly into three buckets with canonical relationships to the anima magic triangle.

 

35 minutes ago, Othin said:

I think it's significant for IS to retain the option of making red beasts and blue beasts and green beasts rather than just one of those three, even if the color assignment of any individual beast is set in stone.

And I think it's better that units follow a sensible pattern rather than having a color arbitrarily assigned to them.

 

42 minutes ago, Othin said:

Speaking of the 3DS shifters, where would your proposal fit them in?

All of them are beasts and are therefore green. This game needs more green units anyways.

Alternatively, if dragons are lumped in with the existing dragons, then they can be red. But I'd still prefer the Laguz dragons to be red and the 3DS beasts to be green.

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

All effective weapons indicate the icons for the exact unit types they have effective damage against.

"Breath" or even "magic breath" is the most logical name for the weapon type.

Falchion has the icons, but Fortify Dragons does not.

3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

"Red strike".

As I said, the situation would work fine either way whether red strikes counted as dragons or not. The writers will figure something out. Or at least the Japanese writers will.

Honestly, in this setup, I'm expecting red strike to be lumped in with the breath weapons anyways for sanity reasons, but whether or not they are doesn't change anything major.

I don't mean the weapon type as a category, I mean the names for the individual weapon skills comprising it.

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

As I think it was you who mentioned (too many people in this thread arguing against me for me to remember), they're there as strike weapons to bring balance to the fact that blue and green strikes are represented.

I do agree that it would fill an important gap, but I think it feels very forced and inelegant in doing so.

[Ice Dragon]

1 minute ago, Othin said:

Falchion has the icons, but Fortify Dragons does not.

Hence why I also mentioned how it could be worded.

 

2 minutes ago, Othin said:

I don't mean the weapon type as a category, I mean the names for the individual weapon skills comprising it.

I want to be cynical and just give them "Ena's Breath", "Nasir's Breath", etc., but generic weapons would be a huge problem simply due to how few dragons and birds there are (and how many of them are expected to get uninheritable weapons) unless we get a skill shop. Which means "Ena's Breath", etc., might actually be how it turns out to be.

 

7 minutes ago, Othin said:

I do agree that it would fill an important gap, but I think it feels very forced and inelegant in doing so.

It's simple, it works, it lets them join in on strike-specific buffs, and it's a great excuse to keep them out of the current Lightning Breath meta.

[Othin]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Hence why I also mentioned how it could be worded.

 

I want to be cynical and just give them "Ena's Breath", "Nasir's Breath", etc., but generic weapons would be a huge problem simply due to how few dragons and birds there are (and how many of them are expected to get uninheritable weapons) unless we get a skill shop. Which means "Ena's Breath", etc., might actually be how it turns out to be.

 

It's simple, it works, it lets them join in on strike-specific buffs, and it's a great excuse to keep them out of the current Lightning Breath meta.

Names like "Ena's Breath" and "Nasir's Breath" would mean Fortify Dragons identifying the other dragons by breath doesn't work. It would have to be something not containing the word "breath".

Having dragons arbitrarily outside of the breath system that's been established for all dragons so far isn't simple and it doesn't work.

[Usana]

11 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

All of them are beasts and are therefore green. This game needs more green units anyways.

Alternatively, if dragons are lumped in with the existing dragons, then they can be red. But I'd still prefer the Laguz dragons to be red and the 3DS beasts to be green.

This is the area where I tend to dislike. Given that I haven't played all the early games for me the only beasts I am heavily interested in are the 3ds ones, and I would prefer some color variety in the units I am looking for(though maybe I am alone in that so many of my favorites hit Green like Amelia and Myrrh)..

 

Anyways even baring that I tend to prefer the Strike option simply because we are looking at a smallish pool and it would be easier to get a variety of weapon options if the pool was shared. And to me Strike doesn't sound any worse than Breath. Though again I like variety and it is easier to have a large number of options from a shared pool than individual pools, particularly when unit count for each individual pool would be low'ish.