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Conquest tiering discussion

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22 hours ago, Johnnie said:

I have never understood Dark Knight Nyx. I've tried it a few times and I don't see it. Even promoted in Chapter 9, she's nearly useless in 10; 11 can be done with Effie, Silas and Niles so everyone is superfluous there; she can be a PP nuke on 12 with a forged Fire tome provided she can hit a damn thing; and she might do a bit of work in 13 and 14. I just don't see the point.

Yes, this is my main line of thought, although I'm not sure about useless in C10; she can take tonics and a Vulnerary and clear out the west side easily enough if one wants.

I would imagine she's mid-tier in an LTC list, but the more we slow down the worse Nyx becomes; being useful in four maps isn't an especially impressive contribution in standard efficiency. I often see in Discord arguments like "Heart Seal her and make her Leo's wife after C13" when that carries a chunk of opportunity cost (Heart Seal), can be replicated by a big number of other +Spd / +Mov pairs we have available at that point in the game and still doesn't give Leo wings. On the other hand, being useful for four maps is more maps than Benny/Keaton and friends in D are useful in.

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4 hours ago, Dean said:

Yes, this is my main line of thought, although I'm not sure about useless in C10; she can take tonics and a Vulnerary and clear out the west side easily enough if one wants.

I would imagine she's mid-tier in an LTC list, but the more we slow down the worse Nyx becomes; being useful in four maps isn't an especially impressive contribution in standard efficiency. I often see in Discord arguments like "Heart Seal her and make her Leo's wife after C13" when that carries a chunk of opportunity cost (Heart Seal), can be replicated by a big number of other +Spd / +Mov pairs we have available at that point in the game and still doesn't give Leo wings. On the other hand, being useful for four maps is more maps than Benny/Keaton and friends in D are useful in.

DK Nyx is useful for 8+ move along with speed/mag/def boosts. For 2k and 1 level of exp it's not a horrid investment.

For combat Odin is Odin and we default to Odin for early DK shenanigans (With boosters and rigging he still out-preforms a boosted and rigged Leo even as a 10/X). He can do this a turn before Nyx's join. It's rng heavy early but all early Odin use is.

Effie is our alternate superearly ch9 combat viable promo. With an early Promoted Arthur off ch10 at S she's got some staying power. Not as powerful as Odin long term and we lose a point of move but much safer early.

Final options for ch9 superearly promo's here are Percy and Dwyer. Both out-preform Effie and are long term competitive in the same way Camilia is. We can have both by ch10.

Edited by joshcja

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Elise is also a viable early promo. She'll have the same durability as Nyx but hit harder. I usually wait until after Chapter 12 though and most of my units wait until either Ninja Cave or Kitsune Lair.

Regarding the Nyx discussion, I don't use backpacks. I know the game is balanced around it, but if a unit is mainly viable for the benefits they give another unit then I don't bother with them.

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I'd pretty against dropping Kaze to B rank. Magekilling is already something that most units struggle to accomplish with how hard enemy magic users hit, so having one who can clear groups of them is pretty useful.

Even ignoring that, his 1-2 range and overkill speed makes him a very viable choice aganist some specific enemies that are otherwise diffcult to remove. The Master Ninjas in Chapter 17 are something Kaze is capable of one rounding with enough investment,  which is something very few units can claim to do.

This also extend to the Hunter's Knife which makes him a decent unit against Kitsune and Fliers. While admittedly isn't that important since they can easily be taken out through other means, it does help to prove his versatility. 

Also TC, you may want to add these links to the opening so not everyone may be aware they exist:

Averages:http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/

Enemy Stats: https://www.dropbox.com/s/81z5gox8nj5oxyd/Fates enemy stats (lunatic).xlsx?dl=0

Edited by LoneRecon400

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Sure, I'll add them. It looks like the stickied "useful links" thread hasn't been updated in a very long time.

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Thought I'd add my thoughts on the votes that had happened so far.

 

S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Azura, Niles

No issues here.

 

A: Felicia 1, Kaze

I think Felicia is closer to B. But I can understand A. Kaze I keep changing my opinion on but looking through the maps he's available for he has something useful to do in pretty much all of them so A seems fine.

 

B: Silas, Elise, Effie, Gunter

I don't like Silas and Effie in the same tier at all; I think Silas should be A or Effie should be C. Elise is an interesting case of opportunity cost, but I think Troubadour Elise is probably C or something. Gunter's good and I should probably move him to B in the list in the OP.

 

C: Arthur

E: Mozu

Fair enough I guess.

 

Today's round looks like C Odin and B Nyx which I would switch but w/e...

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How do people use Kaze? He has two early chapters, but I've never found him great once you get him back. He is good at dealing with mages, but so are Jakob, Odin, and Elise. I'm down with him giving ninja to Silas, but I find there's a unit better at the things he brings to the table. Niles is better at chests etc due to +mov. Jakob, Odin, and Elise seem to be better at smacking magic users with limited investment or have long-term potential. Elise needs an early promo for this, but if you're not heart sealing her, I don't see why you wouldn't. Do you give him an instant promo on rejoin? He doesn't need the speed level ups but desperately wants the strength. I can't see him being above B or below C.

 

I've actually never used Benny or Keaton either. They come so late that my current units outclass them. As long as they stay in C or below I'm fine with it. Corrin out tanks Benny and Keaton literally can't keep up (Effie problems without +mov on promo). I'm kinda surprised Keaton doesn't come promoted or at least with better base stats.

 

Silas has been the bread and butter of almost every single run I've done. He gets a full level before Effie even spawns on the map, has essentially every single physical class option, never falls off (if you save him from cav), and gives cav to other units.

 

Imo every early male probably gets +1 tier consideration simply due to kids (Arthur!!, Jakob, Odin!!, Niles, and maybe Kaze/Laslow).  It's part of why female characters in Awakening were always so high on the lists. It's free value from small investment, even if you don't use the kid. Percy and Ophelia's chapters are top tier.

Edit: imo Odin is A tier at minimum.

I'm up for having my mind changed on any of these things. New kinds of playthroughs are always of interest to me.

Edited by Centh

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On 1/3/2019 at 12:50 AM, Dean said:

Today's round looks like C Odin and B Nyx which I would switch but w/e...

Imo, both of them sound like C rank at best. What does Reddit see in Nyx anyhow??? Because I certainly do not see it with her being cripplingly overspecialized (ergo, her magic and speed being her only good stats, and being poor everywhere else).

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3 hours ago, Centh said:

How do people use Kaze? He has two early chapters, but I've never found him great once you get him back. He is good at dealing with mages, but so are Jakob, Odin, and Elise [...]

I've actually never used Benny or Keaton either [...]

I understand the feeling, mate. I have never learned how to use Leo. I always find him superfluous (and useless on a ten-units party.)

Since Kaze should have got all kills from Chapter 5, he should have ended at L7 then and be L13 (+6) once he joins the party. And unless your other units had a precocious sexuality and had already completed various Paralogues before Chapter 11, Kaze should be at the same level than your core units.

High Resistance and high Speed is a combo that I want on at least two units (out of ten.) One is Elise, but she is also the only healer, and the second is one among Kaze, Anna, Nina or Niles.

I need Elise and one of these units for the western bridge of Ch 13, the northeastern section of Ch 18, across Ch 20, the upper side of Ch 22, across Ch 24, and against the magicians of Ch 26 and Endgame. By late game, these units must have around 30 Res to actually tank magical hits. (This threshold is what disqualifies Ophelia.)

Even when Anna, Nina, Kaze and Niles have all equal Res, Kaze will have a small lead in Spd, a huge lead in Skill and Weapon Triangle Advantage over tomes. The latter two are key, since they grant him significantly more hits and avoids. There is also the Hunters Knife, which lets Kaze kill any Cavalier, Paladin, Bow/ Dark/ Kinshi Knight (all of which he would double) and at least wound severely any Pegasus or Kitsune. And I still have not mention that he wields daggers, whose de-buffs are useful in a variety of situations, unrelated to magical enemies.

That being said, I find Mechanist Anna (re-classed as Apothecary right at L10) more versatile than Kaze; and Nina, normally stronger than the handsome ninja. Yet Kaze is easier to use than those two.

 

About Keaton: Velouria makes him a solid B. He he. No, seriously, she is overpowered as fuck.

I never use him, though. If I want to recruit Velouria, I grind Supports in the ‘Before Awakening’ map. This way she replaces him immediately and is ready for Ch 16.

Edited by starburst

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The Silas discussion over on Reddit really annoyed me. Their collective wisdom seems to be that he becomes kind of disappointing during the middle game and other units surpass him… which is completely correct, if you leave him in the cavalier line, but is wildly untrue if you bother to exploit his array of reclass options. The Sol Master Ninja role seems completely unknown there and damage stacking isn't considered at all.

I made a giant effort post about the really dumb things Odin can do, and rated Nyx a lot lower than him, but I got no responses from anyone but the guy running the tier list. He complained that Nyx and Odin do practically the same things.

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1 hour ago, starburst said:

Kaze should have got all kills from Chapter 5

How in the name of Anankos would you pull that off when the Mercenaries are too tough for him to kill in a timely manner??? I could be wrong, but even with a Rinkah pair up, he can only take one hit from the Mercenaries, and folds like a napkin to another.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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15 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

How in the name of Anankos would you pull that off when the Mercenaries are too tough for him to kill in a timely manner??? I could be wrong, but even with a Rinkah pair up, he can only take one hit from the Mercenaries, and folds like a napkin to another.

You can follow this guide to do it. He actually gets Kaze to level 10 before the route split, which is pretty hilarious. Not the thing to do if you care about low turn counts, though. I’ve run modifications to this general strategy that don’t give Kaze quite as much of the experience, either to go faster or to get Rinkah to D Axes (also a pretty amusing result).

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@Zoran, I have been checking the discussion too, and so far there has been nothing creative there,  nothing to learn. The tier rules are supposedly based on Lunatic, encouraging  LTC, yet most comments show basic, plain strategies/ reasoning.

I mean, even if Odin were rank Z or whatever, it was really disappointing that his crazy builds were not discussed, even if just for amusement. (I use Odin as an example because he was recently featured, but any other divisive unit works. I was expecting diverse takes.)

Edited by starburst

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2 hours ago, Zoran said:

You can follow this guide to do it. He actually gets Kaze to level 10 before the route split, which is pretty hilarious.

I checked the guide and it requires waiting various turns in the upper corner of the map, until the enemies reach you. I, on the other hand, lure the Mercenaries, but then charge south (turn 3.) Corrinette only kills two units, while the rest are taken down by Kaze. It takes me seven or eight turns, I think. It is all about positioning.

Kaze always ends at L7 after Ch 5 (or L8 if he was given some action in Ch 4.) And I level-up him even if he will not be used, for it is just boring to hand kills to Dragon Corrin, who one-hits everyone and gets only 1 Exp per kill.

Edited by starburst

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59 minutes ago, Zoran said:

You can follow this guide to do it. He actually gets Kaze to level 10 before the route split, which is pretty hilarious. Not the thing to do if you care about low turn counts, though. I’ve run modifications to this general strategy that don’t give Kaze quite as much of the experience, either to go faster or to get Rinkah to D Axes (also a pretty amusing result).

Frankly, I find that too much effort for a unit I find rather lackluster. Sure, he's good for mage killing, but so are Felicia, Nina and Anna... and the latter two also have lockpicking covered, which adds up to Kaze being superfluous, and dare I say, obsolete when he rejoins.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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The disagreements we might be having seem to be a difference in tiering philosophy. The list being created now seems to be coming from a playthrough mindset where "Corrin, Jakob and Camilla are the best units so we focus available resources into them, while other units receive limited resources and are tiered based off whatever niche supporting role they can perform with no resources."

 

I'm never quite sure how to view opportunity cost when it comes to tier lists. In today's round ft. Laslow, we saw a lot of discussion about Ninja Laslow. Say, hypothetically, I ranked Heart Seal Corrin S tier, Heart Seal Jakob S tier, Heart Seal Laslow C tier and Mercenary Laslow D tier. Should it be assumed that Corrin and Jakob, being the better units, will always receive the Heart Seal, leaving Laslow in D tier? Or can we say that Laslow is a capable user of Heart Seal, but not as good as Corrin and Jakob, which is already reflected in that they're in S and we're arguing him for C?

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There are five early Heart Seals in Conquest. Even under the assumption that Corrin, Jakob 1, and Camilla each take one, there are two left over that you can use for just about anything.

Friendship Seals are pretty easy to build toward for many early units, and they relieve a lot of the demand for mid-game class changes. There aren’t many units who need a Heart Seal mid-game to keep up; most do well in their base class until chapter 20 or have a good friendship set.

To me, the list of first gen units who really need one of those two other Heart Seals before chapter 20 to be any good begins and ends at Mozu. They’re nice to have for Gunter and Xander, while Elise would like an early one and Odin can get stupidly broken if you give him two.

But I would also contest the notion that Camilla, Jakob, and Corrin really need the early Heart Seals. Jakob does better with marriage to Corrin for early Malig Knight, whereas Silas does Paladin Jakob’s thing but for free. Corrin’s perfectly good abusing the dragonstone throughout the early game and can steal other classes via friendship in the middle game. Camilla does just fine staying in Malig Knight for a while.

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I like keeping Corrin as Noble until ch.10, unless it's a class I don't want to be heart sealing to. Being bulky, hitting for magic damage, and having ok/rounded pair up bonuses at no cost is some good value.

 

I prefer keeping Jakob as a butler. The speed pair up, 1-2 range, decent bulk&speed, and healing is way too much to give up for an overkill Jeigan. E.G. ch.7 where Jakob doubles to kill the mages while not taking much damage (doesn't need a pair up or tonics most of the time). I much prefer friendship sealing Jakob to paladin off of Silas later in the game where his combat as a butler starts to fall off (ch10+). This opens up another heart seal for anyone else to use. I'm definitely on the A/S tier Jakob 1 boat. He has so many reclass options, gives a good kid with nice resources, high availability, great combat when you need it, and great utility once his combat falls off. If you're not going to use Silas much and aren't heart sealing Elise, I get heart sealing Jakob early, but the opportunity cost is really high since he'll be taking a heart seal when it's not that necessary and taking xp/role from Silas.

 

TL;DR: I agree with @Zoran

 

I think Laslow would be way higher if you got him 2 chapters earlier. He needs a heart seal and a lot of babying to get going on his join chapter. People knock Odin for needing a bit on his join chapter, but Laslow needs more and joins later. He makes a bonkers ninja with an S support with Charlotte. The +hp, Sol, strong riposte, gamble/elbow room, +5 shuriken is a monster build. Soleil is even better at it, though her chapter is tough once you've got everything setup. He has the same problem a lot of units have, which is Silas achieving the same role with less resources (Silas running elbow room, Sol, +5 shuriken, riposte, other (lunge, +2 str, shurikenbreaker) from a friendship seal off Kaze. This doesn't make these units bad, they just cost more by comparison, which makes a tier difference in my mind. I think Laslow is a solid C unit. Even if you're not using him as a main combat unit (ninja), he has a free mini rally with two of the most important stats and can go BK for amazing pair up stats (also can give Xander Sol off a friendship sealed fast support, which completes Xander's final form if you're using him fully).

 

TL;DR: imo Laslow is a solid C due to mini-rally, strong final build later with higher cost, good pairup stats, and Xander fast support.

Edited by Centh
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I really don't get all the Sol hype - imo a chance of 50% lifesteal is just not reliable enough, especially when it only does anything if the enemy is healthy, and even then, it could still be useless depending on what you're facing. Long story short, for Sol to be a net positive, you either have to hope the enemy whiffs (not reliable), do at least double what the enemy does to you (which I don't really see happening unless your name is Xander or you have a really sturdy Corrin variant), or have the enemy in a position where they can't counter.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Sol is very strong on units with: high damage, high skill, good speed, decent bulk, and unrestricted 1-2 range. That list encompasses basically ninja Silas, ninja Laslow, ninja Soleil, and no one else.

If you're imagining that Sol is supposed to recover whatever damage you take instantly, so that no enemies deal damage to you, you're not conceptualizing it properly.

Normally, you position your units so they take a certain number of battles and you know they'll survive until the next turn no matter what. If you're doubling in Guard Stance, you know that at least one in every three enemy attacks will get blocked, and if you take five fights you could potentially block the third one and the fifth one. So if your unit won't die in three hits, and it counterattacks and doubles all the enemies, you've got potentially ten chances to proc a skill.

With Sol on such a unit, you still set things up the same way—you don't count on Sol procs going off at the right moments to keep you from dying. But what changes is that you can now be reasonably sure that the unit comes out of the fight with a good amount of HP. On ten fights with 25 Skill, the chance that you proc Sol at least three times is 47.4%; you'll get it at least twice 75.6% of the time. With the high damage you get from these units by stacking Elbow Room, Strong Riposte, Vow of Friendship/Sisterhood, +STR pairup, meals, and eventually Shurikenfaire, any given Sol hit is likely to heal a lot of HP—generally about ten each time. Combined with ninja's high Avoid, and especially when WTA or breakers are in play, chances are quite good that the unit in question will not need healing in order to fight multiple enemies on the following turn, too.

So Sol is a skill that buys actions for you. 

Edited by Zoran

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I also put it on talisman spamXander with sky knight Selena pocket so he can take on mages.

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4 hours ago, Zoran said:

Sol is very strong on units with: high damage, high skill, good speed, decent bulk, and unrestricted 1-2 range. That list encompasses basically ninja Silas, ninja Laslow, ninja Soleil, and no one else.

If you're imagining that Sol is supposed to recover whatever damage you take instantly, so that no enemies deal damage to you, you're not conceptualizing it properly.

Normally, you position your units so they take a certain number of battles and you know they'll survive until the next turn no matter what. If you're doubling in Guard Stance, you know that at least one in every three enemy attacks will get blocked, and if you take five fights you could potentially block the third one and the fifth one. So if your unit won't die in three hits, and it counterattacks and doubles all the enemies, you've got potentially ten chances to proc a skill.

With Sol on such a unit, you still set things up the same way—you don't count on Sol procs going off at the right moments to keep you from dying. But what changes is that you can now be reasonably sure that the unit comes out of the fight with a good amount of HP. On ten fights with 25 Skill, the chance that you proc Sol at least three times is 47.4%; you'll get it at least twice 75.6% of the time. With the high damage you get from these units by stacking Elbow Room, Strong Riposte, Vow of Friendship/Sisterhood, +STR pairup, meals, and eventually Shurikenfaire, any given Sol hit is likely to heal a lot of HP—generally about ten each time. Combined with ninja's high Avoid, and especially when WTA or breakers are in play, chances are quite good that the unit in question will not need healing in order to fight multiple enemies on the following turn, too.

So Sol is a skill that buys actions for you. 

If I may be frank, that's a very, very, VERY idealistic - and generous - way of looking at it. Guard Stance isn't reliable - ergo, while it does block one attack, the negated attack may not be the one I was hoping it would be. Also, I do not put much stock in high evade, what with even high evade units being surprisingly hittable - which you should have noted from my last post:

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

you either have to hope the enemy whiffs (not reliable)

Breakers can help with that, except for the part where they're level 15 skills, which means they're only going to be relevant for about three chapters at most unless you're Felicia, Jakob or Gunter. Which, incidentally, is why I think by bringing up Shurikenfaire and breakers, you only managed to trip over yourself. Regarding the bolded statement, that's only going to be true if, once again, Sol activates on your first attack, else the enemy is damaged to the point where you're likely getting less healing than an obsolete healing item.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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6 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I may be frank, that's a very, very, VERY idealistic - and generous - way of looking at it. Guard Stance isn't reliable - ergo, while it does block one attack, the negated attack may not be the one I was hoping it would be. Also, I do not put much stock in high evade, what with even high evade units being surprisingly hittable - which you should have noted from my last post:

Breakers can help with that, except for the part where they're level 15 skills, which means they're only going to be relevant for about three chapters at most unless you're Felicia, Jakob or Gunter. Which, incidentally, is why I think by bringing up Shurikenfaire and breakers, you only managed to trip over yourself. Regarding the bolded statement, that's only going to be true if, once again, Sol activates on your first attack, else the enemy is damaged to the point where you're likely getting less healing than an obsolete healing item.

There's no "hope" anywhere. Guard Stance is extremely reliable. You don't use it correctly because you think of it as a way to negate the worst possible enemy attack. Instead (if you don't know for sure what the enemy turn order is) you should think of it as a guaranteed block on the weakest enemy attack.

It doesn't matter what order the enemies end up attacking in. If you're going to be in range of three enemies, you make sure the two strongest attacks can't kill you, and then you're fine. It goes like this:

Enemy 1 attacks.

Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is at 6/10. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not.

Enemy 2 attacks.

Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is full. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not—I made sure I would survive regardless.

Enemy 3 attacks; it's blocked.

Counterattack twice.

Now, maybe attack number 3 here was some weakling who could only do one damage. That's fine! Simply because I'm going to get that dual guard, I know that I have four consecutive chances to steal HP from two different enemies, after all the damage has come in. I don't care what kind of power Enemy 3 has because he represents just a 100 - (100-Skl)^2 % chance of being an HP donor.

The likelihood is high, even on a lowball estimate of 25 skill, that you'll recover a large chunk of HP. There's also a decent chance, stacked on top of that, that one of the first two enemies just happens to miss. If you don't recover with Sol and they don't miss, fine, you can get a healer over there or retreat or use a healing item—whatever you would've otherwise done if you didn't have Sol at all. But if you do hit those chances, great! You've effectively gained an action next player phase and saved some resources. Healing does vary depending on the enemy's exact defenses and whether you get Sol on the first strike or the second, but because you get these streaks of four strikes in a row thanks to dual guards, a lot of the variance is smoothed out.

I mentioned Breakers and Shurikenfaire not because they're essential but because they're tools that any of these units will eventually get. It's not a gotcha to say that those are late-game things—of course they are! The build works on underlying principles, and these late-game bonuses simply accentuate the features that were already there.

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5 hours ago, Zoran said:

There's no "hope" anywhere. Guard Stance is extremely reliable. You don't use it correctly because you think of it as a way to negate the worst possible enemy attack. Instead (if you don't know for sure what the enemy turn order is) you should think of it as a guaranteed block on the weakest enemy attack.

It doesn't matter what order the enemies end up attacking in. If you're going to be in range of three enemies, you make sure the two strongest attacks can't kill you, and then you're fine. It goes like this:

Enemy 1 attacks.

Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is at 6/10. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not.

Enemy 2 attacks.

Counterattack twice. Guard gauge is full. It doesn't matter whether the enemy hits or not—I made sure I would survive regardless.

Enemy 3 attacks; it's blocked.

Counterattack twice.

Now, maybe attack number 3 here was some weakling who could only do one damage. That's fine! Simply because I'm going to get that dual guard, I know that I have four consecutive chances to steal HP from two different enemies, after all the damage has come in. I don't care what kind of power Enemy 3 has because he represents just a 100 - (100-Skl)^2 % chance of being an HP donor.

The likelihood is high, even on a lowball estimate of 25 skill, that you'll recover a large chunk of HP. There's also a decent chance, stacked on top of that, that one of the first two enemies just happens to miss. If you don't recover with Sol and they don't miss, fine, you can get a healer over there or retreat or use a healing item—whatever you would've otherwise done if you didn't have Sol at all. But if you do hit those chances, great! You've effectively gained an action next player phase and saved some resources. Healing does vary depending on the enemy's exact defenses and whether you get Sol on the first strike or the second, but because you get these streaks of four strikes in a row thanks to dual guards, a lot of the variance is smoothed out.

I mentioned Breakers and Shurikenfaire not because they're essential but because they're tools that any of these units will eventually get. It's not a gotcha to say that those are late-game things—of course they are! The build works on underlying principles, and these late-game bonuses simply accentuate the features that were already there.

Honestly, I likely wouldn't see it as much help if the enemy attack that was most likely to be ineffective (read: either does almost no damage or most likely would have whiffed) was blocked, because odds are if I'm using pair up, it's most likely because I either need it or it's most to my advantage to pair up for some other reason (I REFUSE to field units that are only good for being pair up bots, like Arthur or Charlotte).

I dunno about you, but I'd rather not use strategies that crumple like a house of cards the moment things do not go the way you expect them to. Like Sol. If it doesn't activate on the first attack, you're healing next to nothing because you damaged the enemy too much for Sol to be much help if it activated on the second attack (unless, of course, the first attack whiffed). Sol sounds amazing in theory, but how something works in theory and in practice are two completely different things.

The way I see it, outside of Felicia, Jakob and Gunter, they're likely to be relevant for so little time that they might as well be irrelevant (I dunno about you, but I don't see level 15 skills coming into play until around chapter 25 or so. Needless to say, that's only a tiny portion of the game, especially considering that only two chapters after that actually require any real work - those being 26 and endgame). As a result, I feel it's silly to hype up something that is, in essence, the FE equivalent of Last Disc Magic.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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