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Want to debate about fire emblem so I decided on thracia 776 (in my opinion it is one of thee most polarizing FE games in terms of unit debates) 

I will argue about any units but I am going to start with this,

"Marty can be one of the best units in your army if trained properly" 

 

 

Edited by Atlos

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Sure, let's do this!

Marty suffers from not being able to be transported as a result of capping Con pretty early. He will also have middling mobility because his promotion, while great otherwise, provides no mov. He has 1 pcc, no movement stars, no skills, and no leadership. He obviously has no staff utility and his very low magic is difficult to fix, making him prone to status staves of all kinds. Finally, his one support being Dagdar, an unit with a niche very similar to his doesn't do him any favor.

On the flipside, he grows into the most physically durable unit in the game and his extremely high HP means fatigue isn't much of a problem for him. He's also very good at stats few units excel at(HP, Def, Bld), and bad at ones that are the easiest to fix through early scrolls(Skl, Spd), giving him a pretty impressive spread if trained correctly, indeed. As said above, his promo bonuses are also fantastic (+3 Str&Def, +5 Skl, +6 Spd).

Overall no, he has too many shortcomings to be among the best, he just doesn't really have that potential. He is violently underrated by many, though, as simply giving him the Hero Axe early on completely fixes his combat, and once his stats catch up/he promotes, he becomes a perfectly serviceable unit that will rarely fail you.

Edited by Cysx

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In maps that the warp staff is used Marty is one of the best targets as his physical durability lets him take a lot of hits and hold  a portion of the enemy, while the rest of your army takes down a smaller group, not being able to be rescued is not necessary a down side due to the fact vulnerary's act as elixirs the fact he's is often targeted by status staffs is not a down side in book as their is ways to mitigate this by using a pure water on him and status staffs aren't around in every chapter, normally to patch his poor early game speed he's will hold on to the sety scroll which boosts magic growth so he will not likely be the first target. I don't believe the fact that having a low PCC, no skills or leadership stars is a downfall as Illios has no PCC and is still a great unit(I am not trying to compare him to Illios I'm using him as an example)

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4 hours ago, Atlos said:

In maps that the warp staff is used Marty is one of the best targets as his physical durability lets him take a lot of hits and hold  a portion of the enemy, while the rest of your army takes down a smaller group, not being able to be rescued is not necessary a down side due to the fact vulnerary's act as elixirs the fact he's is often targeted by status staffs is not a down side in book as their is ways to mitigate this by using a pure water on him and status staffs aren't around in every chapter, normally to patch his poor early game speed he's will hold on to the sety scroll which boosts magic growth so he will not likely be the first target. I don't believe the fact that having a low PCC, no skills or leadership stars is a downfall as Illios has no PCC and is still a great unit(I am not trying to compare him to Illios I'm using him as an example)

Warp is typically used to defeat the boss, and then seize in a timely fashion. Marty isn't notable as a boss killer(he's okay, there are just better people for it), and he cannot seize. He can also die to magic pretty fast, and strong magic users start being pretty common towards the end of the game, not to mention those that reduce HP to 1 and poison, whom he cannot really kill easily and is just as vulnerable to as everyone else. Him being rescued isn't about protection, it's to improve his mobility by being ferried across mountains or problematic terrain in general, something every unit can take advantage of, but him. Pure waters are a pretty precious resource and even with it, he struggles to reach 10 Magic, which iirc, still leaves him vulnerable to a bunch of stuff. It also takes him a turn to use one. True, status isn't in every chapter, but it's frequent enough later on that it's a pretty significant problem for Marty. Sety scroll makes his magic growth 15, that's not gonna make a miraculous difference.

It's not that 1 PCC, no MS, Leadership or Skills make him worthless, these are just significant advantages others have over him. You said he could be one of the best, so he has to compare to everyone else, and many simply bring more to the... party, than he does.

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I will compare him with Dalsin because they are both axe using tanks that are good at capturing. His alternative role would pit him againist Otsin and Halvan wich is just a massacre.

Dalsin has overall better bases AND growths while retaining Marty main selling point: he has enought con to capture most people and will eventually get 20. The only leads of Marty are HP, luck and defense growth, but with that base it will be worst for 90% of the game. Marty has better movement, but only before promotion, and while he get great promotion gains, Dalsin does too. Marty get a speed lead on promotion, but he has to get there trough 0 speed hell or use resources that would be better on Dalsin (Dagdar can double a shitload of enemies with 9 base speed, Dalsin can reasonably get there before promotion if scrolls are used), wich is plain better in any phase of the game, and has a Manster chapter or two to get a couple of sety scrolled levels before it became super contested (sure, Asvel has flawless speed with it, but you can trade). And this whitout considering that both of them are not the best users of those resources.

Marty need speed and skill boosters to exist before promotion, Dalsin like speed boosters period but won't die whitout. Sure hammers and armorslayer are a thing, but i don't remember how common they really are and how many of them are in the indoor chapters with difficult to capture stuff. 

Is the huge HP lead and not get bothered by hammers better than the lead in most stats, weapon types and early game? In my opinion not. Both of them are mostly indoor units that excell in tanking and capturing, and Dalsin is better at the role unless Marty recieve favoritism. And we are speaking on an unit on the weak side, that has niche uses in certain maps but is overall not worth the effort in most others, not a top tier axe user. 

 

I actually like marty, and he has some uses, but to be "one of the best" he has to recieve an immense amount of favoritism. He is one of the worst units in the most balanced FE to date, so he is nowhere as unusable as the likes of Meg and Sophia, and he has near perfect aviability to fix his problems, but that's all. If favored he became quite strong, but so does everyone else. I concide that he is a particularly strong unit if uber favored, because the peak potential of any other stats is 20, but HP goes as high as  80,  but other people have prf weapons or stars and so i won't ever call it the strongest uber favored guy.

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1 hour ago, Flere210 said:

I will compare him with Dalsin because they are both axe using tanks that are good at capturing. His alternative role would pit him againist Otsin and Halvan wich is just a massacre.

Dalsin has overall better bases AND growths while retaining Marty main selling point: he has enought con to capture most people and will eventually get 20. The only leads of Marty are HP, luck and defense growth, but with that base it will be worst for 90% of the game. Marty has better movement, but only before promotion, and while he get great promotion gains, Dalsin does too. Marty get a speed lead on promotion, but he has to get there trough 0 speed hell or use resources that would be better on Dalsin (Dagdar can double a shitload of enemies with 9 base speed, Dalsin can reasonably get there before promotion if scrolls are used), wich is plain better in any phase of the game, and has a Manster chapter or two to get a couple of sety scrolled levels before it became super contested (sure, Asvel has flawless speed with it, but you can trade). And this whitout considering that both of them are not the best users of those resources.

Marty need speed and skill boosters to exist before promotion, Dalsin like speed boosters period but won't die whitout. Sure hammers and armorslayer are a thing, but i don't remember how common they really are and how many of them are in the indoor chapters with difficult to capture stuff. 

Is the huge HP lead and not get bothered by hammers better than the lead in most stats, weapon types and early game? In my opinion not. Both of them are mostly indoor units that excell in tanking and capturing, and Dalsin is better at the role unless Marty recieve favoritism. And we are speaking on an unit on the weak side, that has niche uses in certain maps but is overall not worth the effort in most others, not a top tier axe user. 

 

I actually like marty, and he has some uses, but to be "one of the best" he has to recieve an immense amount of favoritism. He is one of the worst units in the most balanced FE to date, so he is nowhere as unusable as the likes of Meg and Sophia, and he has near perfect aviability to fix his problems, but that's all. If favored he became quite strong, but so does everyone else. I concide that he is a particularly strong unit if uber favored, because the peak potential of any other stats is 20, but HP goes as high as  80,  but other people have prf weapons or stars and so i won't ever call it the strongest uber favored guy.

The amount of hammers the enemy's have late game is a real problem in using Dalsin, it can be insanely difficult for him to remain safe in late chapters due to this

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2 hours ago, Cysx said:

Warp is typically used to defeat the boss, and then seize in a timely fashion. Marty isn't notable as a boss killer(he's okay, there are just better people for it), and he cannot seize. He can also die to magic pretty fast, and strong magic users start being pretty common towards the end of the game, not to mention those that reduce HP to 1 and poison, whom he cannot really kill easily and is just as vulnerable to as everyone else. Him being rescued isn't about protection, it's to improve his mobility by being ferried across mountains or problematic terrain in general, something every unit can take advantage of, but him. Pure waters are a pretty precious resource and even with it, he struggles to reach 10 Magic, which iirc, still leaves him vulnerable to a bunch of stuff. It also takes him a turn to use one. True, status isn't in every chapter, but it's frequent enough later on that it's a pretty significant problem for Marty. Sety scroll makes his magic growth 15, that's not gonna make a miraculous difference.

It's not that 1 PCC, no MS, Leadership or Skills make him worthless, these are just significant advantages others have over him. You said he could be one of the best, so he has to compare to everyone else, and many simply bring more to the... party, than he does.

with the 15% magic growth and the fact that he gains 1 point of magic upon promotion he is not completely screwed for magic and will have two or three points in magic, will that that is insanely low it does mean that any magic or staff user doesn't completely tear him to shreds, he is also (in my opinion) the best candidate for the leg ring as that complexly fixes any movement issues. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't thing mountains are too much of an issue due too his base class.  

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I know he needs a large amount of babying too make him good but if he has the right scrolls and certain items used on him he can be a great unit. 

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17 hours ago, Flere210 said:

sure, Asvel has flawless speed with it, but you can trade

I see this more as a Mekkah commodity thing than anything else. Asvel has a 70% speed growth and an insane promotion, the Sety scroll makes but a very small difference on him, and for a very short time. Other units tend not to have any trouble doubling/not really fight that much, so I definitely wouldn't say the scroll is in high demand.

It is actually fairly commonly known that Thracia has it out for Dashin, who is indeed a pretty decent unit especially for an armor knight, but has to face hordes of armor slaying weapons even though he's your only unit for almost the entire game to take effective damage from them. It's a pretty baffling design decision. Also it is true that favoritism makes miracles happen in Thracia, but I'll insist that Marty really doesn't need that much, compared to other rocky start units. The Hero Axe might seem like it'd be in high demand, but Halvan and especially Dagda don't actually need it that much to kill stuff, and even capturing is plenty doable without it. As for Othin... yeah.

15 hours ago, Atlos said:

with the 15% magic growth and the fact that he gains 1 point of magic upon promotion he is not completely screwed for magic and will have two or three points in magic, will that that is insanely low it does mean that any magic or staff user doesn't completely tear him to shreds, he is also (in my opinion) the best candidate for the leg ring as that complexly fixes any movement issues. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't thing mountains are too much of an issue due too his base class.  

He does have HP to compensate for his low magic at least, but still, that's a pretty big weakness of his.

Leg ring is probably the most contested item in the entire game, and when your lord has movement issues, you have a dancer, and it can push a flier into outranging ballistae(which is very useful in dealing with them), it's really difficult to justify giving it to Marty imo.

For mountains, I'm relying on Serenes here because I frankly don't know, but apparently Marty doesn't move any faster than other foot units in them, despite his class' name.

Edited by Cysx

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I have never stated that Dalsin is good, iirc it is a 4/10 in the tier list, wich to me seem fair. He is what i call an aquaman after the "this looks like a job of aquaman" trope: other games reward sticking to the same 10 or so people, but Thracia is different and there make sense to pick a specific unit for a specific chapter, due to both stamina and how easy it is to get decent combat in that game. I can even think of a map or two where Ronan is good lol.

I think Dalsin is a good pick in the following circumstances:

- the battle is indoor, both for mobility reasons and because outdoor you can just capture with Fergus, Brighton and the other horsies.

-there is something you want to capture and the build requirement are steep enought that only he and few other can pull it off.

-i suppose the indoor lance meme could have some use, but it seem overall a very small thing and i mostly mention it for completition.

 

This is more or less also the situation where Marty is optimal. Other than that, they can be fielded as fillers but unless extreme favoritism is used, they won't ever be "autopick unless they are out of stamina".  And now that i checked, Dagdar has enought build for most enemies too,wich makes their position significantly worse.

I lack the patience to check every single indoor chapter to see how many hammers and mage are out there, but if my main objective is capturing that one guy, avoiding hammer for a map seems easier than babying Marty untill he can capture reliably.

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2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I have never stated that Dalsin is good, iirc it is a 4/10 in the tier list, wich to me seem fair. He is what i call an aquaman after the "this looks like a job of aquaman" trope: other games reward sticking to the same 10 or so people, but Thracia is different and there make sense to pick a specific unit for a specific chapter, due to both stamina and how easy it is to get decent combat in that game. I can even think of a map or two where Ronan is good lol.

I think Dalsin is a good pick in the following circumstances:

- the battle is indoor, both for mobility reasons and because outdoor you can just capture with Fergus, Brighton and the other horsies.

-there is something you want to capture and the build requirement are steep enought that only he and few other can pull it off.

-i suppose the indoor lance meme could have some use, but it seem overall a very small thing and i mostly mention it for completition.

 

This is more or less also the situation where Marty is optimal. Other than that, they can be fielded as fillers but unless extreme favoritism is used, they won't ever be "autopick unless they are out of stamina".  And now that i checked, Dagdar has enought build for most enemies too,wich makes their position significantly worse.

I lack the patience to check every single indoor chapter to see how many hammers and mage are out there, but if my main objective is capturing that one guy, avoiding hammer for a map seems easier than babying Marty untill he can capture reliably.

That's fair but I can rely on Marty to chapter and be an offensive powerhouse I don't have to fear for my life when I see another axe user so I think he is that if you do baby him he can easily outrank Dalsin

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In my opinion I would not give the leg ring to Leif as he will not see combat too often, your dancer is gained mid to late game and I don't see any point in storing one of your best item for a chunk of the game and with Karin I think it is too much of a niche utility for her as in the case of ballista it is not too much of a threat to her(due to only being in a handful of chapters)  and their is other ways to mitigate this issue.

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15 hours ago, Atlos said:

In my opinion I would not give the leg ring to Leif as he will not see combat too often, your dancer is gained mid to late game and I don't see any point in storing one of your best item for a chunk of the game and with Karin I think it is too much of a niche utility for her as in the case of ballista it is not too much of a threat to her(due to only being in a handful of chapters)  and their is other ways to mitigate this issue.

Dang, I forgot just how early the game gave you the leg ring, admittedly.

... my points still stand though(except Karin, I mean she's still a good candidate because of ferrying, but she can outrange regular ballistae by promoting, and 15 range ones are out of her reach regardless, I was thinking of something else), largely because Marty just isn't that good a choice.
Leif doesn't see much combat precisely because he's not very mobile. He's a support battery for many characters, seizes, and typically runs around with the King Sword once obtained, making his combat and support great. He also doesn't get fatigued, so overall, he's a really solid choice. The character becoming a dancer 6 chapters later is already around at that point, and it's not like she cannot take advantage of +2 move. But really pretty much anyone with canto or superior combat compared to Marty can make better use of it, that's kind of just how it is.

18 hours ago, Flere210 said:

I have never stated that Dalsin is good, iirc it is a 4/10 in the tier list, wich to me seem fair.

I never said you did. He's decent but then, hammers.

Also your approach of optimizing deployment is interesting but you can't exactly train everyone(and most untrained units do fall off still), and deployment slots are generous enough that you don't have to drop characters too often. Marty and Dashin are also pretty fatigue resilient, and can always justify their presence by being capable of reliably tanking crowds of enemies. So chances are, they'll be around more often than not.

Edited by Cysx

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@Atlos use the Edit button, so I don't have to warn you for double-posting.

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10 hours ago, eclipse said:

@Atlos use the Edit button, so I don't have to warn you for double-posting.

Oh I thought I did use the edit button. Never mind anyway ill just be more careful next time

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11 hours ago, Cysx said:

Leif doesn't see much combat precisely because he's not very mobile

I think this is also due to a few other issues, he is comparable to FE6 Roy generally low growths (but this can be mostly remedied by crusader scrolls), a rather late promotion and lack of 2 range without magic blades but this isn't really an issue because of 60 uses on the light brand but before that he will need some major stat fixing due to his low growths

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