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Fire Emblem Three Houses Unit Tier Lists

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Raphael's biggest saving grace is that he doesn't have a flying weakness, and the minimum speed (base speed + class bonus) for Wyvern Rider and Wyvern Lord are 17 and 24 respectively.

He won't be gaining much speed beyond that (even with a class growth bonus he's only hitting a 25 speed growth), but at the very least that's a passable amount.

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1 minute ago, Technoweirdo said:

Salvageable?
Salvageable?

No, Quick Riposte doesn't salvage him; It does way more than you or I thought it would.

Yeah, he's definitely good with it, if he can get to the front lines. And as someone else earlier in this thread mentioned, he doesn't have a flying bane, so he could go Wyvern Lord; it'll just take a bunch of investment, thanks to him having to go War Master first. That's the reason I say it makes him "salvageable"; he's stuck in Infantry till he gets it, with investment into a weapon type that he physically can't use on top of his wyvern. 

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1 hour ago, Silly said:

Raphael's biggest saving grace is that he doesn't have a flying weakness, and the minimum speed (base speed + class bonus) for Wyvern Rider and Wyvern Lord are 17 and 24 respectively.

He won't be gaining much speed beyond that (even with a class growth bonus he's only hitting a 25 speed growth), but at the very least that's a passable amount.

Granted you have to invest in him...but:

In addition he offers smite (Starts at D with a strength in armor) and rally strength on a unit without a flying weakness (which gives him passable combat through Wyvern) that comes early enough for that to be beneficial which is necessary for a few early game low turn counts strategies (rally strength for reliable 8 turn of chapter 1 and smite for the chapter 5 sidequests possible in 2 turns each when in conjunction with Lysithea's warp). It's not much, but it is somewhat unique or better than what Annette (no future, No smite), Flayn (poor stats, joins late, mounted weakness), and Manuela (impossible Bolting, bad warp range, joins late) offers.

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5 hours ago, Tarul said:

Can anyone convince me that Raphael is not one of the worst units in the game? If we treat hard mode as the baseline, since Lunatic doesn't exist yet, then there isn't a real need for a dedicated tank, as most physical classes will be physically tank enough through to serve the same function through the paladin class, or dodge-tanky via speed classes (swordmaster, etc). While he can point destroy in player phase thanks to gauntlets, his enemy phase is rather lacking, as he usually can only get 1 hit on the enemy, leaving them alive with around 1/3 HP. In contrast, the top off-tanks usually ORKO most units except for sword masters, assassins, Pegasus knights, and knights, giving them more utility in clearing maps. Furthermore, Raphael's horrible speed and resistance gets him murked by mages, which limits his usage in the late game chapters when you'd want to use him against the low-accuracy but high-might silver weapons, as said units are usually accompanied by mages.

Admittedly, he's nice to use as a reliable physical wall every now and then, but his weakness in riding makes him struggle to get to the frontline via mobility classes (he synergizes well with the great knight class), meaning he can be difficult to get to places to actually do his job (damage sponge). As an off-tank, he's outclassed by the lords, Byleth/Hilda/Leonie/Lorenz/etc in damage/tanking ratio. Finally, as a player-phase delete button, he's destroyed by mages (notably Lysanthea) who usually have +3-4 range to attack safely (or honestly the lords again with crest weapons when you're going to take a hit from the Counterattack ability). Raphael is almost always limited to gauntlets for the double (which also means his effective might isn't as stellar since weapons give so much attack strength)

He's usable, as is almost every character in this game, but I can't think of a reason to use him besides his convenience of no recruitment requirements in the Golden Deer run. If we count NG+ in the tier list (where every character is recruitable day 1 thanks to support boosting with renown), then every character should be treated as having day 1 availability.

I'd go one better and ask if anyone can convince me that Raphael is not the absolute worst unit in the game. Because as far as I'm concerned, he's an easy shoe-in for such. Using axes means he's going to get doubled by everything that's not an armor, which means his high HP disappears in a hurry. This can be avoided with gauntlets to some extent... but then you have to deal with his effective might not being so great. What in the name of Duma does he have to make up for all his glaring weaknesses!??! Because I am drawing a blank.

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

I'd go one better and ask if anyone can convince me that Raphael is not the absolute worst unit in the game. Because as far as I'm concerned, he's an easy shoe-in for such. Using axes means he's going to get doubled by everything that's not an armor, which means his high HP disappears in a hurry. This can be avoided with gauntlets to some extent... but then you have to deal with his effective might not being so great. What in the name of Duma does he have to make up for all his glaring weaknesses!??! Because I am drawing a blank.

I mean he's not good when you compare him to who either offer straightforward utility in Faith Magic or good player and enemy phase combat and can snowball with minimal investment:

  • Claude, Dimitri, Edelgard, F!Byleth
  • M!Byleth, Lysithea, Petra, Leonie
  • Felix, Seteth, Catherine, Sylvain, Ferdinand, Hilda, Lindhart
  • Ingrid, Dorothea, Marianne, Shamir, Mercedes

I think he should be comparable to the passable units/those with some utility, but notable drawbacks:

  • Cyril, Bernadetta, Ignatz, Ashe, Flayn, Manuela

-He's probably still worse than Cyril or Bernadetta who have strengths in riding, bows, and lances. They all have shaky strength and defense stats and bases. They also offer no other utility.  However Cyril has Point Blank Volley and could easily go Wyr route instead. Bern has Deadeye and a good personal skill.

-Ignatz has rally speed at D rank and can also be a bow knight as well. He has a good personal skill. But he also has shaky Strength and Defense stats and no strength in lances or riding. IMO I think Raphael is probably better.

-Ashe is similar to Ignatz, but doesn't offer rally speed, but has Deadeye and could go Wyvern route as well. IMO I think Raphael offers something more uniquely useful.

-Raphael offers smite at B armor (and starts at D) which is like a pseudo reuseable rescue/warp every turn, rally strength at D rank Authority, and passable combat if you invest in him enough as a flier (Not too difficult since he starts with a strength in Axes and he is neutral in Flight). AKA he can be a flying Rally Strength and Smite bot with Canto at least 20 which is surprising useful for a lot of LTC strategies, probably about as much utility as Manuela and Flayn can offer IMO.

His stats are actually not that bad because class base speeds at promotion are usually enough to prevent doubles with the weight reducing armor skills (at least hard mode). If he's being used he should go Brigand (5 move)-->Wyr knight/Grappler (7/6 move)-->Wyr Lord (8 move; 20 base speed) 

-Flayn has rescue and fortify, but joins somewhat late. She can reach both pretty quickly. Negative affinity for riding hurts though so hitting dark knight will be hard.

-Manuela has Warp at A and Bolting at A, joins late, subpar magic growth (limiting range), and has no affinities for riding or lances so hitting holy knight or Gremory may be difficult. Bolting is probably impossible to hit though.

Compare him to worse units:

  •  Hubert, Annette, Caspar, Lorenz, Dedue, Alois, Hanneman, Gilbert

-Hubert and Annette are mages with bad spell lists and stuck to 4 move if they want to have any combat utility until level 30. Annette can be a rally bot, but will have no offensive presence as a physical unit.

-Lorenz can either be a Cavalier with shaky Strength and speed or a mage with no utility spells (meteor, faith skills).

-Caspar can also go Wyr Lord, but would have trouble reaching Armor skills like -3 weight or smite and doesn't get rally strength. Worst of all he has a authority WEAKNESS which means he's not getting any of the good battlions.

-Dedue is like Raphael with a weakness to both mounts and no rally strength.

-Alois joins really late. Alois has a weakness to flying. He gets rally Strength, but doesn't have a good mobility option.

-Gilbert joins really late. He can offer similar utility to Raphael if you have him head that direction.

-Hanneman joins late and offers 1 Meteor cast forever. He is also stuck with 4 move until level 30.

 

My tier list would probably be something like this:

S : Lords, F! Blythe> M! Blythe

These units offer exceptional player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options and crests.

S - : Lysithea, Ingrid, Hilda, Leonie, Petra  (They have pegasus knight access and B rank Warp)

These units offer good player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options with no bow weakness or have early Warp.

A+: Lindhardt, Sylvain, Ferdinand

These units offer player are similar to above, but held back by something (lindhardt gets warp at A, Sylvain has a bow weakness and is male, Ferdinand is male)

A: Felix, Catherine, Shamir, Dorothea, Marianne, Mercedes

These units have good stats, but need training in either flying or riding to work optimally. These units are mages with good spell lists i.e. thoron, meteor, physics, fortify)

B: Cyril, Bern, Ignatz, Ashe, Raphael, Flayn, Manuela

These units have some situational utility, but are held back by poor stats/weakness and/or availability.

C : Lorenz, Hubert, Annette, Caspar, Dedue

These units have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

D : Gilbert, Alois, Hanneman

These units join late and have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

Edited by OCDbox

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1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

 I'd go one better and ask if anyone can convince me that Raphael is not the absolute worst unit in the game. Because as far as I'm concerned, he's an easy shoe-in for such. Using axes means he's going to get doubled by everything that's not an armor, which means his high HP disappears in a hurry. This can be avoided with gauntlets to some extent... but then you have to deal with his effective might not being so great. What in the name of Duma does he have to make up for all his glaring weaknesses!??! Because I am drawing a blank.

Raphael is not weak in flying, which makes me thing he is probably not the worst unit in the game.

For example, Dedue has slightly better stats than Raphael in the first eight chapters or so, but his flying weakness means he ain't going to be a Wyvern anytime soon, which means that past level 20 Raphael is actually significantly faster than Dedue and has more utility (due to much higher mobility). 

Wyvern Rider does a lot to contribute to his long term viability and will give him a massive speed bump. Just the fact that Wyvern Rider has at minimum 17 speed and Wyvern Lord has at minimum 24 is insane, and does a lot to patch up Raphael's awful speed.

Someone who is bad for the entire game is probably worse than someone who is bad for the first eight chapters or so but can then reclass into a class that is at the very, very minimum acceptably useful.

Edited by Silly

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7 hours ago, OCDbox said:

I mean he's not good when you compare him to who either offer straightforward utility in Faith Magic or good player and enemy phase combat and can snowball with minimal investment:

  • Claude, Dimitri, Edelgard, F!Byleth
  • M!Byleth, Lysithea, Petra, Leonie
  • Felix, Seteth, Catherine, Sylvain, Ferdinand, Hilda, Lindhart
  • Ingrid, Dorothea, Marianne, Shamir, Mercedes

I think he should be comparable to the passable units/those with some utility, but notable drawbacks:

  • Cyril, Bernadetta, Ignatz, Ashe, Flayn, Manuela

-He's probably still worse than Cyril or Bernadetta who have strengths in riding, bows, and lances. They all have shaky strength and defense stats and bases. They also offer no other utility.  However Cyril has Point Blank Volley and could easily go Wyr route instead. Bern has Deadeye and a good personal skill.

-Ignatz has rally speed at D rank and can also be a bow knight as well. He has a good personal skill. But he also has shaky Strength and Defense stats and no strength in lances or riding. IMO I think Raphael is probably better.

-Ashe is similar to Ignatz, but doesn't offer rally speed, but has Deadeye and could go Wyvern route as well. IMO I think Raphael offers something more uniquely useful.

-Raphael offers smite at B armor (and starts at D) which is like a pseudo reuseable rescue/warp every turn, rally strength at D rank Authority, and passable combat if you invest in him enough as a flier (Not too difficult since he starts with a strength in Axes and he is neutral in Flight). AKA he can be a flying Rally Strength and Smite bot with Canto at least 20 which is surprising useful for a lot of LTC strategies, probably about as much utility as Manuela and Flayn can offer IMO.

His stats are actually not that bad because class base speeds at promotion are usually enough to prevent doubles with the weight reducing armor skills (at least hard mode). If he's being used he should go Brigand (5 move)-->Wyr knight/Grappler (7/6 move)-->Wyr Lord (8 move; 20 base speed) 

-Flayn has rescue and fortify, but joins somewhat late. She can reach both pretty quickly. Negative affinity for riding hurts though so hitting dark knight will be hard.

-Manuela has Warp at A and Bolting at A, joins late, subpar magic growth (limiting range), and has no affinities for riding or lances so hitting holy knight or Gremory may be difficult. Bolting is probably impossible to hit though.

Compare him to worse units:

  •  Hubert, Annette, Caspar, Lorenz, Dedue, Alois, Hanneman, Gilbert

-Hubert and Annette are mages with bad spell lists and stuck to 4 move if they want to have any combat utility until level 30. Annette can be a rally bot, but will have no offensive presence as a physical unit.

-Lorenz can either be a Cavalier with shaky Strength and speed or a mage with no utility spells (meteor, faith skills).

-Caspar can also go Wyr Lord, but would have trouble reaching Armor skills like -3 weight or smite and doesn't get rally strength. Worst of all he has a authority WEAKNESS which means he's not getting any of the good battlions.

-Dedue is like Raphael with a weakness to both mounts and no rally strength.

-Alois joins really late. Alois has a weakness to flying. He gets rally Strength, but doesn't have a good mobility option.

-Gilbert joins really late. He can offer similar utility to Raphael if you have him head that direction.

-Hanneman joins late and offers 1 Meteor cast forever. He is also stuck with 4 move until level 30.

 

My tier list would probably be something like this:

S : Lords, F! Blythe> M! Blythe

These units offer exceptional player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options and crests.

S - : Lysithea, Ingrid, Hilda, Leonie, Petra  (They have pegasus knight access and B rank Warp)

These units offer good player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options with no bow weakness or have early Warp.

A+: Lindhardt, Sylvain, Ferdinand

These units offer player are similar to above, but held back by something (lindhardt gets warp at A, Sylvain has a bow weakness and is male, Ferdinand is male)

A: Felix, Catherine, Shamir, Dorothea, Marianne, Mercedes

These units have good stats, but need training in either flying or riding to work optimally. These units are mages with good spell lists i.e. thoron, meteor, physics, fortify)

B: Cyril, Bern, Ignatz, Ashe, Raphael, Flayn, Manuela

These units have some situational utility, but are held back by poor stats/weakness and/or availability.

C : Lorenz, Hubert, Annette, Caspar, Dedue

These units have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

D : Gilbert, Alois, Hanneman

These units join late and have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

This is a really solid list and good explanation, I'd personally argue that both Dedue and Hubert have good early game usage however as Dedue single handely destroys early game blue lions route with his personal skill and low amount of mages in the garreg mach chapters. He does completely fall off however due to joining later in the second half and his horrible speed/restistance meaning he gets ORKO by even the weakest mages, Hubert similarly is a great early game archer counter as he accesses Mire very fast, no other character will have 1-3 range in such a fast time (As even though bows are really good Archers are not meaning bow users will often go the cav or flier route), and with lunatic showing that archers will have poison strike I think it will now be even more important to be able to counter attack them in enemy phase. He does also fall off since he is male and locked to 4 mov untill he can access Dark Knight which he can get into easily but still no where near as good as Dorothea as a black eagles mage (Double Meteor Gremory is insane) or Lysithea. I do however think even regardless of being weaker in comparison to other characters he still has his use and Black eagles have two horrible units in Berendetta and Caspar so deployment slots early are not hard to find.

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1 hour ago, you_equipped_socks said:

This is a really solid list and good explanation, I'd personally argue that both Dedue and Hubert have good early game usage however as Dedue single handely destroys early game blue lions route with his personal skill and low amount of mages in the garreg mach chapters. He does completely fall off however due to joining later in the second half and his horrible speed/restistance meaning he gets ORKO by even the weakest mages, Hubert similarly is a great early game archer counter as he accesses Mire very fast, no other character will have 1-3 range in such a fast time (As even though bows are really good Archers are not meaning bow users will often go the cav or flier route), and with lunatic showing that archers will have poison strike I think it will now be even more important to be able to counter attack them in enemy phase. He does also fall off since he is male and locked to 4 mov untill he can access Dark Knight which he can get into easily but still no where near as good as Dorothea as a black eagles mage (Double Meteor Gremory is insane) or Lysithea. I do however think even regardless of being weaker in comparison to other characters he still has his use and Black eagles have two horrible units in Berendetta and Caspar so deployment slots early are not hard to find.

Agreed on Hubert, tier lists should consider how useful a unit is throughout the game as a whole, not who gets to endgame as most broken. Hubert is a god in the first 5-6 chapters of BE, and he's still very good up until the timeskip. He's at risk of falling off afterwards as more options open up and more people can have his role, but Miasma/Banshee/Mire (especially Mire) early on are just amazing. And even then, if you can get him to DK fast he'll still be one of your best units (there's also the point that putting time into Lance is not completely wasted, since Frozen Lance is a delete button on any enemy). I'm not too sure if Dorothea is overall a better mage later on, I find she doesn't have the same raw power, though her spell list is arguably the best outside of Dark Mages.

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9 hours ago, Silly said:

Raphael is not weak in flying, which makes me thing he is probably not the worst unit in the game.

For example, Dedue has slightly better stats than Raphael in the first eight chapters or so, but his flying weakness means he ain't going to be a Wyvern anytime soon, which means that past level 20 Raphael is actually significantly faster than Dedue and has more utility (due to much higher mobility). 

Wyvern Rider does a lot to contribute to his long term viability and will give him a massive speed bump. Just the fact that Wyvern Rider has at minimum 17 speed and Wyvern Lord has at minimum 24 is insane, and does a lot to patch up Raphael's awful speed.

Someone who is bad for the entire game is probably worse than someone who is bad for the first eight chapters or so but can then reclass into a class that is at the very, very minimum acceptably useful.

You ask me, though, being bad early on hurts. A lot. Even if he stops sucking worse than SSB64 Link's recovery once he gets into Wyvern Rider, that's way too damn long to have to put up with Raphael sucking.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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11 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

You ask me, though, being bad early on hurts. A lot. Even if he stops sucking worse than SSB64 Link's recovery once he gets into Wyvern Rider, that's way too damn long to have to put up with Raphael sucking.

This was going too far, but made me laugh. Anyways, I also agree that Raphael isn't that great. And if he has to be a broken class to be good, well then the class is just carrying him. Not that he doesn't have some use, he just isn't impressive.

Edited by lightcosmo

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Gonna give my impressions on units from BL run :

Byleth (Mage->Warlock->Mortal Savant) : Wanted to have some fun. He was fun.
Dimitri (Cavalier->Paladin->Unique->Unique) : Cav/Pal screwed his Spd a bit but he was still a monster. Found him a lot more impressive than Edelgard.
Dedue (Brigand->Grappler->War Master) : Like Raphael/Caspar (more tanky than Caspar though) he was really useful, he just kill/tank things.
Felix (Thief->Swordmaster->Mortal Savant) : I'd say he's the strongest unit early game, at the end though...he could double things but had trouble killing them and squishy.
Sylvain (Cavalier->Paladin->Dark Knight) : Slower than Felix but stronger/bulkier, he picked up when Felix started going down.
Ashe (Brigand->Wyvern Rider->Wyvern Lord) : I liked him a lot, double and hit hard but...squishy as all hell.
Annette (Mage->Warlock->Dark Knight) : Strong at the very beginning (because Wind weight nothing) and then was slow and squishy like nobody else.
Mercedes (Priest->Bishop->Dark Knight) : Pray to the Goddess, she was a better damage dealer than Annette after a while and those sweet heals.
Ingrid (Pegasus Knight->Falcon Knight) : Double anything but hit like a wet noodle (+ low dex = not even a big chance to crit), one of the best mage killer though.
Cyril (Archer->Sniper->Bow Knight) : He was stupid to be honest.

1-Byleth
2-Dimitri
3-Cyril
4-Mercedes
6-Ashe
6-Dedue
6-Sylvain
6-Ingrid
6-Felix
10-Annette

 

All those at 6 had their time to shine tbh.
 

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5 hours ago, timon said:

Agreed on Hubert, tier lists should consider how useful a unit is throughout the game as a whole, not who gets to endgame as most broken. Hubert is a god in the first 5-6 chapters of BE, and he's still very good up until the timeskip. He's at risk of falling off afterwards as more options open up and more people can have his role, but Miasma/Banshee/Mire (especially Mire) early on are just amazing. And even then, if you can get him to DK fast he'll still be one of your best units (there's also the point that putting time into Lance is not completely wasted, since Frozen Lance is a delete button on any enemy). I'm not too sure if Dorothea is overall a better mage later on, I find she doesn't have the same raw power, though her spell list is arguably the best outside of Dark Mages.

I also agree with this sentiment about Hubert. He's not god tier for the whole game as being unable to fly or use Physic/other good Faith magic hurts him in the long run but early on his 1-3 range access is uncontested except by archers (Bernadetta is not great until she gets BK and none of your other units even want to entertain the idea of being an archer) and Dorothea's Thoron which comes a full rank later (and doesn't debuff).

I do find late Dorothea to be better than Hubert at most things, unless those things are one-shotting lower-res enemies and horses since that's what Hubert was born to do (thanks to his nuts magic and dark spikes). He's also better with gambits which is nice, but she gets Physic and Meteor, and eventually Hubert is doing so much damage that -5 DEF doesn't actually matter because the enemy's health is left so low - at this point unless you are one-shotting Thoron and Mire are functionally very similar. Based on what I hear about Lysithea, Hubert is not as good as she (no warp being the principle reason) but he's still a good unit early and can go DK with little trouble to be valuable all game. C tier is hugely undervaluing his early utility.

I would rather avoid Hubert garnering a similar and equally undeserved reputation to Odin's in Fates.

Edited by De Geso

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5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You ask me, though, being bad early on hurts. A lot. Even if he stops sucking worse than SSB64 Link's recovery once he gets into Wyvern Rider, that's way too damn long to have to put up with Raphael sucking.

I mean, obvious Raphael is pretty bad, but you asked if he was the worst unit in the game. And even though you have to deal with him being bad for half the game, there are units that are bad for the entire game.

He's far from the list of units I would recommend, but I do think that there are actually units worse than he is.

-------------------------------------------------------

Also, Hubert is fine. I would put him at solidly mid tier, which is the tier right below "I would actually recommend this unit to people". He has his niche and can do good work, but is outclassed in the long term.

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17 hours ago, OCDbox said:

-Gilbert joins really late. He can offer similar utility to Raphael if you have him head that direction.

My tier list would probably be something like this:

C : Lorenz, Hubert, Annette, Caspar, Dedue

These units have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

D : Gilbert, Alois, Hanneman

These units join late and have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

Are we counting NG+ or regular mode when we're making these tier lists? Because weaknesses in leveling skills/supports becomes a nonfactor in NG+, and could severely change unit's rankings.

IMO, Gilbert is much better than Raphael. Gilbert requires no investment to become decent (he joins as a respectable tank in chapter 15), while Raphael requires training and investment in gauntlets/flying/axe to reach said level. This is a slight problem in NG+, when other more valuable units will benefit more from the skill level boosts, but a HUGE problem in first playthrough, where activity points are limited and teaching Raphael would be taking away valuable time from more useful units. 

Also, Raphael has a chance to get screwed (or blessed) because he has that many more chapters to grow. Gilbert is a great wall post-chapter 15, easily tanking archers and swordmasters (IMO the "bane" of hard mode if there is one) thanks to his high defense and native abilities. Furthermore, he comes with a C in axes/riding and a D in armor, making his transition into great knight easier since Byleth's professor level should be approaching A+. Finally, he has rally strength to further encourage moving walls. He's not good, but he functions immediately out of the box; using Raphael requires investment that another character could have used better (unless we're counting him as a pure rally bot). Yes, Raphael does have a better player-turn phase, but IMO Gilbert's enemy phase is better (since he won't be using gauntlets), and both characters' main purpose should be to frontline tank. And, IMO (again), tanking becomes more important late game when enemies start wielding silver weapons with crazy high MT and low accuracy.

Why are you listing Annette in C tier below Raphael? Rally speed+resistance is great, and it helps the resistance-lacking lords take down the dangerous mages of late game. IMO, Raphael should be brought down to C tier as well.

Edited by Tarul

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The following are comments on the Blue Lions.  No particular order; ranking them proved an irritating task (how the hell do you rank a character like Ingrid, who was the worst character for half of the run and then arguably the best character for the other half?) so I didn’t bother. 

Hard/Classic difficulty.  Never used stat-boosters because I’m an idiot.

 

Byleth (Myrmidon>Mercenary>Enlightened One):  Strong early, monstrous right after his promotion, then he faded somewhat as his speed lagged.  Still a good unit anyway.

Dimitri (Soldier>Cavalier>Paladin>High Lord>Great Lord):  Monster throughout the game.  Best overall character in the BL route.

Dedue (Fighter>Armored Knight>Fortress Knight>War Master):  Switched to War Master very late; would switch much sooner if I did this again.   Never got to Quick Riposte, which would have helped him tremendously.  Terrific up until the timeskip, but then he’s unavailable for a while.  Practically invulnerable to physical damage through the entire game.  Good strength, but not enough to OHKO.  Many glaring weaknesses (mobility, speed, resistance) but his defensive ability was an asset throughout the run. 

Annette (Monk>Mage>Warlock):  Good early, then she struggled for several chapters.  Emerged as a OHKO machine when she picked up Fiendish Blow and Black Tomefaire.  Very few enemies could survive a hit from her, and she never missed.  Mobility was an issue (though the Caduceus Staff helped somewhat) and she could never take a hit, but her firepower was an asset even at the end of the run.  Would make her a Dark Knight if I did it over again.

Mercedes (Monk>Priest>Bishop):  Her ability to heal tons of HP from across the map was essential.  Few mages could scratch her.  Never had the speed or the spell list to be a great offensive unit, but one of the most important characters of the run, nonetheless.

Ingrid (Soldier>Pegasus Knight>Falcoknight):  Sucked for about 12 chapters until she suddenly became unhittable when all of her avo bonuses came online at once.  Tough character to rate.

Felix (Myrmidon>Mercenary>Swordmaster):  Realized too late that his personal ability is fool’s gold and he still needs to pump authority like everybody else.  That said, he tracked somewhat like Annette:  Good early, struggled for a while, then performed well when he reached his final class. 

Sylvain (Soldier>Cavalier>Paladin):  Consistently useful throughout, never a liability, but also never dominant.  No real weaknesses. 

Ashe (Fighter>Archer>Sniper>Bow Knight):  Proof that even a mediocre bow user is still useful.  Dexterity was his only standout stat, but his ability to hit reliably from 5+ tiles away was unique and helpful. 

Flayn (Priest>Dancer):  Bad until I was able to change her class.  Helpful afterwards.  Utility character:  could refresh, heal, tank mages, and ORKO most fortress knights.  Worst combat unit on the roster, but still useful.

Seteth (Wyvern Rider>Wyvern Lord):  Showed up late-ish, and only really saw use when I could field 11 units, but he required no real effort to bring up to speed and was excellent when I did use him.  Will attempt to use him more in a future playthrough, because he seems very good.

 

Obviously personal experience factors heavily into this commentary.  For instance, I got more out of Annette than most, it appears.  Maybe that’s because I wasn’t trying to LTC.  I was just playing the game. 

Edited by Roc

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2 hours ago, Tarul said:

Are we counting NG+ or regular mode when we're making these tier lists? Because weaknesses in leveling skills/supports becomes a nonfactor in NG+, and could severely change unit's rankings.

IMO, Gilbert is much better than Raphael. Gilbert requires no investment to become decent (he joins as a respectable tank in chapter 15), while Raphael requires training and investment in gauntlets/flying/axe to reach said level. This is a slight problem in NG+, when other more valuable units will benefit more from the skill level boosts, but a HUGE problem in first playthrough, where activity points are limited and teaching Raphael would be taking away valuable time from more useful units. 

Also, Raphael has a chance to get screwed (or blessed) because he has that many more chapters to grow. Gilbert is a great wall post-chapter 15, easily tanking archers and swordmasters (IMO the "bane" of hard mode if there is one) thanks to his high defense and native abilities. Furthermore, he comes with a C in axes/riding and a D in armor, making his transition into great knight easier since Byleth's professor level should be approaching A+. Finally, he has rally strength to further encourage moving walls. He's not good, but he functions immediately out of the box; using Raphael requires investment that another character could have used better (unless we're counting him as a pure rally bot). Yes, Raphael does have a better player-turn phase, but IMO Gilbert's enemy phase is better (since he won't be using gauntlets), and both characters' main purpose should be to frontline tank. And, IMO (again), tanking becomes more important late game when enemies start wielding silver weapons with crazy high MT and low accuracy.

Why are you listing Annette in C tier below Raphael? Rally speed+resistance is great, and it helps the resistance-lacking lords take down the dangerous mages of late game. IMO, Raphael should be brought down to C tier as well.

IMO the only reason I have Raphael that high is due to SMITE and potential to go into Wyvern, rally strength is just a bonus for early game when benchmarks are tighter. His combat is also passable with passable durability. That's more than the people below him can say which have drawbacks where their combat becomes bad on a mount and offer nothing else to save turns besides passable combat.

IMO your best use of the teaching time is to get Lysithea to B faith, Lynhardt to A faith, and SOMEONE to SMITE ASAP because these things tangibly save turns whereas most characters will reach the right promotion qualifications as long as you plan out your goals. My rationale in my list is partially through my experience trying for the lowest possible turn count based on hard mode of a new game. LTC is actually very reliable in this game due to the resources the game eventually gives you. Just normal efficiency gives you ALOT of leeway because in enemy phase 2RKOs aren't really worth much less than 1RKOs on route maps and warp skipping chapter 5 and 6 is no longer ideal since you can just take your time to get the movement ring and accuracy ring and armor slayer and get tons of easy EXP (without warp both chapters might take 8+ turns).

RE: Gilbert

I don't think Gilbert is good mainly because he joins so late. He is just another combat unit that is easy to replicate. When your team size is limited, every character contribution counts much more if it is unique. Gilbert doesn't offer anything to save turns like early smite+flight or get early rally Strength when it CAN tangible save a turn like in chapter 1 for example. Great knight is a significantly worse class than Wyvern Lord. Raphael has a equal chance of getting blessed or screwed, but even if he never gains a single stat, he saves turns by virtue of getting early rally strength and smite early enough to matter which IMO is AT WORST Flayn/Manuela level of utility. Raphael's is not actually THAT bad when you're comparing combat, he does not has to be using Gauntlets on enemy phase, when someone could trade him an axe or something (which is what he should be doing since he should end in a Wyvern class if you are using him). BTW Gilbert gets rally defense not rally strength.

Annette is bad because her combat in physical classes is not good, meaning you either have rally bot with 6/7 move and bad combat or a rally bot with low move and okay at best combat  (until level 30). TBH the utility of a rally bot goes down as the game goes on because there are more resources to reach benchmarks for boss kills and enemy phase combat. Rally strength is much better when your characters have sub 10 strength than when they have 20+ and are overkilling enemies. It's still useful, but not NECESSARY. It's only a minor point in her favor IMO.

 

11 hours ago, timon said:

Agreed on Hubert, tier lists should consider how useful a unit is throughout the game as a whole, not who gets to endgame as most broken. Hubert is a god in the first 5-6 chapters of BE, and he's still very good up until the timeskip. He's at risk of falling off afterwards as more options open up and more people can have his role, but Miasma/Banshee/Mire (especially Mire) early on are just amazing. And even then, if you can get him to DK fast he'll still be one of your best units (there's also the point that putting time into Lance is not completely wasted, since Frozen Lance is a delete button on any enemy). I'm not too sure if Dorothea is overall a better mage later on, I find she doesn't have the same raw power, though her spell list is arguably the best outside of Dark Mages.

I agree that Hubert is definitely a very reliable character for the first 5-6 characters and one of the strongest. It's just that I'm not sure any of his contributes save turns per say. I don't think Hubert reaches 1RKO thresholds during that time which would definitely make his contributions much more important (i.e. not even lysithea will 1RKO in the first 5-6 chapters).  He does have rally magic though...which might be kind of helpful for warp benchmarks in theory and maybe frozen lance makes him a decent cavalier and paladin until he hits dark knight? I agree he seems better than the other C units.

Maybe something like this?

S : Lords, F! Blythe> M! Blythe

These units offer exceptional player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options and crests.

S - : Lysithea, Ingrid, Hilda, Leonie, Petra  (They have pegasus knight access and B rank Warp)

These units offer good player and enemy phase combat with good mobility options with no bow weakness or have early Warp.

A+: Lindhardt, Sylvain, Ferdinand

These units offer player are similar to above, but held back by something (lindhardt gets warp at A, Sylvain has a bow weakness and is male, Ferdinand is male)

A: Felix, Catherine, Shamir, Dorothea, Marianne, Mercedes

These units have good stats, but need training in either flying or riding to work optimally. These units are mages with good spell lists i.e. thoron, meteor, physics, fortify)

B: Cyril, Bern, Ignatz, Ashe, Raphael, Flayn, Manuela

These units have some situational utility that can tangibly save turns, but are held back by poor stats/weakness and/or availability.

C+: Hubert

This unit makes strong early game contributions, but have major drawbacks that prevent them from good midgame contributions.

C : Lorenz, Annette, Caspar, Dedue

These units have major drawbacks that prevent them from contributing much past early game when deployment is free.

D : Gilbert, Alois, Hanneman

These units join late and have major drawbacks that prevent them from using/reaching optimal usage.

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I just had an idea for an Annette build that may improve her utility. I feel that she may be underestimated because people are looking to put her in a standard box: She doesn't have the great spells to be a gremory, her rally skills aren't useful if she's not up front with the rest of the team, but she also isn't great as a frontliner. I've seen most people try to solve this with dancer, making her a pure support rallybot. I suggest trying a holy/dark knight build.

Holy/Dark knight gives her what she's lacking. Added mobility lets her keep up with the team for full rally potential. Being on the front lines allows her to use ice lance and her crusher, making her spell list negligible. Even a lack of physic is somewhat fixed by being a frontline medic. Her primary goal in this role is still to focus on support via rally and heals, but using the benefits of holy/dark knight (mobility and weapon proficiencies) to be a frontliner that can help with the enemy phase while spending the player phase supporting the team or cleaning up.

Now, I'm not going to claim this is something amazing, especially since I've just theorycrafted this idea. All I'm asking for is an honest consideration.

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19 minutes ago, Vitezen said:

I just had an idea for an Annette build that may improve her utility. I feel that she may be underestimated because people are looking to put her in a standard box: She doesn't have the great spells to be a gremory, her rally skills aren't useful if she's not up front with the rest of the team, but she also isn't great as a frontliner. I've seen most people try to solve this with dancer, making her a pure support rallybot. I suggest trying a holy/dark knight build.

Holy/Dark knight gives her what she's lacking. Added mobility lets her keep up with the team for full rally potential. Being on the front lines allows her to use ice lance and her crusher, making her spell list negligible. Even a lack of physic is somewhat fixed by being a frontline medic. Her primary goal in this role is still to focus on support via rally and heals, but using the benefits of holy/dark knight (mobility and weapon proficiencies) to be a frontliner that can help with the enemy phase while spending the player phase supporting the team or cleaning up.

Now, I'm not going to claim this is something amazing, especially since I've just theorycrafted this idea. All I'm asking for is an honest consideration.

So there's one really, really big problem with this idea.

What the heck are you going to do for the first 30 levels???

Keep in mind that rallying gives no exp, and without the access to physic the healing exp that she will be gaining on maps pre-level 30 will be very limited. So you have to actually give her 30 levels worth of kills. It's not as big of an issue early on when all your units are mediocre, but as your good units start reclassing into classes with higher movement and gain the ability to ORKO enemies, it's going to get harder and harder to give Annette exp without intentionally slowing yourself down.

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37 minutes ago, Silly said:

So there's one really, really big problem with this idea.

What the heck are you going to do for the first 30 levels???

Keep in mind that rallying gives no exp, and without the access to physic the healing exp that she will be gaining on maps pre-level 30 will be very limited. So you have to actually give her 30 levels worth of kills. It's not as big of an issue early on when all your units are mediocre, but as your good units start reclassing into classes with higher movement and gain the ability to ORKO enemies, it's going to get harder and harder to give Annette exp without intentionally slowing yourself down.

Her early levels should be spent as a normal magic user, just one that also has good rallying. Mobile classes don't become that common until around 20 or 30, unless you're making everyone a cavalier. If you're really worried about lack of mobility, you could switch her into paladin to start working on her non-magical skills and defense early while picking up aegis.

You could even start her off in cavalier and let her study magic in class instead. Though I'm not sure if this is the best since you want her to get some magic growths too.

Edited by Vitezen

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10 minutes ago, Meteor said:

Annette does not get Ice Lance to my knowledge 

If that's true, then she does get lightning axe instead at C+. Either way, the core idea is that she has the power to use "magic attacks" despite not having good spells and without needing to rely solely on crusher. Heck, lightning axe scales based off of resistance, not magic, so she doesn't even need to be a strong mage for it.

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5 hours ago, Vitezen said:

Her early levels should be spent as a normal magic user, just one that also has good rallying. Mobile classes don't become that common until around 20 or 30, unless you're making everyone a cavalier. If you're really worried about lack of mobility, you could switch her into paladin to start working on her non-magical skills and defense early while picking up aegis.

Level 10 promotions for typical foot units have 5 move, which already means that she will be falling slightly behind on longer maps. In addition, Cavaliers have 7 move at this point and Pegasi have 6 move. Level 20 promotions into Paladin/Wyvern Rider bumps up the movement of mounts further, to 8 and 7.

That's a lot of levels to spend falling behind your team.

In addition, Annette has no way of contributing while not directly on or near the front lines. She has no access to Physic, her magic is 1-2 range (even 3+ range on a mage is only somewhat helpful in making up the movement difference), and to rally someone she needs to be right next to them.

If you reclass her into a physical class she will have more move, but then you have to deal with a physical unit with a 30 Str, 35 Spd, 20 Def growth, which are really, really low compared to actual physical units.

Edited by Silly

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Mounted units still does not exist for the first 10 levels, Thyrsus comes into play not long after cavaliers and level 30 comes a little past the timeskip. And in general forests and stairs are common in this game, so cavaliers won't be always ahead of infranty.

Mages are only really screwed in the levels between 20 and 30, when wyvern knights and paladins are a thing. Or if you go gremory with the wrong mage.

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48 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Mounted units still does not exist for the first 10 levels, Thyrsus comes into play not long after cavaliers and level 30 comes a little past the timeskip. And in general forests and stairs are common in this game, so cavaliers won't be always ahead of infranty.

 Mages are only really screwed in the levels between 20 and 30, when wyvern knights and paladins are a thing. Or if you go gremory with the wrong mage.

Cavaliers are pretty much always going to be ahead of infantry because there is this one mechanic called "dismount" in this game that is for some reason a completely free action.

There are zero situations in which a cavalier has less movement than an infantry unit. If they get more move while mounted, you can mount and then move. If they get more move while on foot because of terrain penalties, you can dismount and cross the terrain on foot.

That's not even getting into the fact that mages have even LESS move than "regular" infantry. They're not only falling behind pegasi and horses, who have 2-3 more move, they're also falling behind literally every other member of your team that isn't an armor knight.

Now lets look at what maps you can expect around the time you're hitting intermediate classes. The first map at which you can expect to have level 10 units in is probably chapter 5, which is Miklan's giant spiral tower. That map is huge, and to clear it in any reasonable amount of time you're going to need to move close to full movement on all your units. Your mages will naturally fall behind here due to the fact that the amount of ground you need to cover is massive and they have Gilbert-tier movement.

The next map is Jeritza's basement dungeon. Another larger map with a lot of ground to cover, though actually smaller than the previous map and the next one.

Then you have the Eagle and Lion battle, which is a really huge map. The trend sort of continues, as the majority of the maps in this stage of the game are on the larger side, and enemies are weak enough that your higher movement units (and by higher movement units I mean literally everyone that isn't an armor/magic class) can move mostly full movement every turn while dealing with enemies without much threat of dying.

Thrysus only goes so far towards making up these movement issues. On larger maps your mage can usually attack someone on the first one or two turns, especially when factoring in the range boost, but if the map goes beyond two or three turns they are often running out of things to attack, since most of the enemies near the start of the area can be cleared out by your higher move units with a combination of player and enemy phase combat.

Edited by Silly

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