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Petition to claim parity between homosexual options in FE:TH

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4 minutes ago, matchalatte said:

I am aware of this but I have to point out there is a catch using premodern China and Japan as examples. The kind of homosexuality you mentioned is heavily involved with pedophilia, which is more or less the norm (and legal) during pre-westernization periods.

It's not like that sort of thing was uncommon in the western world like you make it out to be. Just look at Charles II of Spain which not only involved pedophilia but also incest. Lots of creepy uncles in that family tree.

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15 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

It's not like that sort of thing was uncommon in the western world like you make it out to be. Just look at Charles II of Spain which not only involved pedophilia but also incest. Lots of creepy uncles in that family tree.

Of course! You can even trace this back to the founding of western civilization as well.

The sage Solon of Athens is well known for his love for teenager boys (pederasty, a socially accepted custom and fad in ancient greek). If you read the Iliad you will also have the feeling that Achilles and Patroclus share more than brotherly loves (therefore you understand why Achilles was so pissed at the end).

Edited by matchalatte

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Singed <3 While I don't have much hopes for IS to change anything in FE16, but I do hope that there would be enough reaction to make IS try better if FE17 ever came out.

Edited by Rose482

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3 hours ago, Bleh said:

Why not? People "shoehorn" characters into being straight all the time. Bowser  initially captured princess peach because she was the only one who could break his spell on the mushroom kingdom, his romantic interest came later. Lady Marian was added to the robin hood stories because people found the merry men... too merry. There are many adaptations of Sherlock Holmes that turn Sherlock or Watson into a woman and they almost always end with romance. That is all from the top of my head, many other exemples exist, so why is it so bad to make a character gay?

Because the same reason people were outraged at soleil's shoehorn, they'll be outraged by x characters gay shoehorn. making a character gay for the sake of it, isn't good character design imo. Just because they do the opposite to gay characters and make them straight doesn't make it right lol. That's not a valid point
 

4 hours ago, Bleh said:

But they don't always get to make them how they want. Yosuke from persona 4 was supposed to confess to the male protagonist, but the director changed it because he wasn't comfortable with homosexuality. The Voltron: Legendary Defenders team talked a lot about how much Dreamworks made it difficult to add lgbt content. The Young Justice team talked about how, when they brought up the subject of lgbt characters to the executives, without mentioning any specific plans, they got a blanket no. Making an lgbt character is hard if you don't have name recognition because the media industry isn't always very receptive.

Well it'll come eventually im sure, they're forcing diversity in many forms of media already. Netflix Witcher series is an example, Triss a red-headed white girl has turned into a black girl, and based on what we know. They specifically cast people based on the color of their skin, because muh diversity. I'm not arguing there shouldn't be diversity, but forcing it isn't the right way to go about it. Make interesting characters that are gay, is that hard? And to the point that directors change stuff like that, that sucks but? that's life. Plenty of things are ruined by people up top.

4 hours ago, Bleh said:

You're right that it doesn't mean it'll get anywhere, but staying silent about our wants will have even less chance to get to a positive outcome.

I guess lol, Nintendo isn't going to pay attention to anything from this tbh. probably a better way to go around it,

4 hours ago, Bleh said:

Again, the game designers don't always get to do what they want. But also, putting limits and conditions on creative pursuit can sometimes foster creativity and, yes, make a better product. George Lucas had some constraints in the first Star Wars trilogy, and when his name recognition got him more creative control, he gave us things like the midichlorians and Jar Jar Binks.

Yes and no, but you're directly countering yourself here. because like in your previous argument those same higher ups directly cancelled some gayness. In a vacuum, games are meant to be enjoyed and played. Its not going to be enjoyed by everyone, and trying to force diversity or gender inclusion or whatever the fuck. isn't going to magically create better characters. There has to be something to it in the first place. Now if something comes out and like 4 gay characters were cx'd because of some director or whatever, im on your side. But, i don't see that. What i see is people saying, they gave us gay options, but not enough. WELL that sucks, but is what it is. Games aren't reality, and even if they were trying to be realistic.. they still are really because being gay or openly gay isn't the norm.
Overall I'm not saying there shouldn't be more gay options, I'm saying it needs to make sense. Otherwise we're just gonna get shit like fates and soleil. This game actually has fairly well written characters and story for once. I'd rather them stick to that


 

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Signed. Alois and Gilbert are married and have children, so there supports are platonic; which makes Linhardt the only actual romantic interest. 

That being said, it’s not unheard of for females to get more le away than Males. Lot of cultures permit Woman same sex relationship, but not men same sex relationship. What’s Japan’s stance on it?

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7 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's not entirely correct. I don't think following what I suggested would decrease the number of LGBT pairings. It would just replace a Heather with a Linhardt. 

Heather is gay and that's kinda all she is. Soleil technically(and strangely) isn't gay and her technically not being gay is all she is. Linhardt is gay but that's not all he is. Its part of him but it gets to join other aspects of his personality like laziness, wasted intellect, a small amount of sass, fear of blood and a carefree attitude. Heather is a gay character, Soleil is technically not a gay character and Linhardt is a character who just happens to be gay.

Its true most people would assume a character is straight until confirmed otherwise. I'm sure most people expected Linhardt to be straight. But that's hardly a bad thing. Me being surprised Linhardt is an LGBT option strikes me as an indication that its better handled than if I would identify him as gay at first glance. Because unless we're talking about people who match all the stereotypical traits you wouldn't identify a real person as gay at first glance either. 

You're not understanding what I'm saying. In a perfect world, your suggestion would be great. But that's not the world we live in, and that's not the company IS and Nintendo are.

We already have an example of your suggestion: Awakening. That's the game where the romances just came as they did, and I'm sure you already know how many gay options there were in that one. If we just leave them to decide based on their own feelings, we'll get nothing. Niles, Rhajat, and all the relevant Three Houses characters are not bisexual because the writers felt it suited them, they are so because there was enough demand for that kind of representation that they decided to put some in.

5 hours ago, Kagetura said:

Would be nice to not have sexuality be forced in as  the main character trait. It's a reality that heterosexuality is a norm and it's only logical that its represented that way, why shoehorn in something for the sake of it just being there, like someone else mentioned earlier if it's going to be included it should be really well written and important to the character beyond that it's just fan service which not everyone is a fan of. It's still just video games afterall, it's up to designer discretion.

No one is asking for sexuality to be forced in as the main character trait. Where do you even get that idea? Why would Felix or Claude or anyone else have to be different if they could fall in love with a man? Why does sexuality need to be important for someone just because they're not heterosexual?

"It's just fan service" The entire idea of S ranks in this game is fan service (it doesn't even have gameplay benefits like the previous games). What's your point?

5 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Imo it does not makes sense whitin the context of Fodlan. Looking at the lore it's clear that the nobles makes a gigantic deal about crest inheritance. As crest can only be inherited by blood and not by adopted children, it would be weird for the Fodlan nobility to NOT be aggresively heteronormative. It's just not the kind of society that would accept homosexuality imo. And you can't really change how the crest works to be more inclusive whitout also changing Edelgard character a lot. Wich would have a domino effect on the entire plot. 

Magic and dragon can make sense in a fantasy setting, everyone being bisexual can make sense in a fantasy setting. But not in a fantasy setting where people need to have children because of plot magic.

We already have instances in the game where characters can be gay and nothing is ever referenced as far as that being considered problematic in Fodlan, so it's likely accepted even if not common.

If magic and dragons can exist in a fantasy setting, it's not out of the realms of possibility that a gay couple could work some magic and have their own baby in that same setting. Why must real-world logic only apply here?

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

making a character gay for the sake of it, isn't good character design imo.

Why not? Gay people in real life aren't gay for any special reason. They just are. Why must it be different in fiction?

1 hour ago, Tsak said:

Overall I'm not saying there shouldn't be more gay options, I'm saying it needs to make sense.

What "makes sense?"

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'Forced diversity' is an insane thing to argue. The world isn't universally full of straight white cis men. FE generally has a cast of about 30-40 PCs; a smattering of them being queer is to be expected.

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38 minutes ago, Florete said:

Why not? Gay people in real life aren't gay for any special reason. They just are. Why must it be different in fiction?

What "makes sense?"

Sure, people aren't gay for any special reason, but these aren't real people. They're fictional, and it doesn't have to be different in fiction. But that's completely up to who creates and releases said character. If they made a fire emblem where everyone was gay, but the story/characters were good it'd be fine. I'm not saying i'd be overjoyed to jump into that game because I can't identify with any of it, but if it's a solid game I'd play it.

If you're going to chop one sentence out of the point it's not going to make sense. Soleil doesn't make sense, shes not a believable gay character (not even a believable bi character). People were understandably outraged.

Claude makes sense. But he's not even an option.

 

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FE has had 16 games with like 1 confirmed gay Leon and 1 confirmed lesbian Heather and 1 confirmed Ike x Soren and a few others that have been secretly whispered about/hinted at. Like Dorothea is bi as fuck and even she doesn't straight up say "I love you and want to marry you" to her female same sex possibilities. 

Yet this lack of representation is somehow more realistic than having a couple gay characters in a game in 2019 where relationships between characters is a feature?

Anyone care to tell me why I should worry about a gay character shoving his sexuality in anyone's face when FE has long had the womanizer character trope that is exactly that? Or why a gay character can't be just a regular character that happens to only get romantic endings with other males?

It would be nice if the DLC characters that are supposedly coming were bi options, I don't think they'll be patching in any of the base cast to make them bi, which is a shame especially as far as Claude and Dimitri.

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14 minutes ago, Tsak said:

If you're going to chop one sentence out of the point it's not going to make sense. Soleil doesn't make sense, shes not a believable gay character (not even a believable bi character). People were understandably outraged.

Claude makes sense. But he's not even an option.

You never explained what "makes sense" for characters to be gay. And Soleil is actually a very believable gay character, or she would be if she were canonically gay.

17 minutes ago, Tsak said:

Sure, people aren't gay for any special reason, but these aren't real people. They're fictional, and it doesn't have to be different in fiction. But that's completely up to who creates and releases said character. If they made a fire emblem where everyone was gay, but the story/characters were good it'd be fine. I'm not saying i'd be overjoyed to jump into that game because I can't identify with any of it, but if it's a solid game I'd play it.

So how is a character being gay "for the sake of it" not "good character design"? Because that's what you said before that led to this, but this seems to not be following up on that.

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7 minutes ago, Florete said:

You never explained what "makes sense" for characters to be gay. And Soleil is actually a very believable gay character, or she would be if she were canonically gay.

So how is a character being gay "for the sake of it" not "good character design"? Because that's what you said before that led to this, but this seems to not be following up on that.

I specifically said shoehorning a character design into making them gay for the sake of it, is not good character design. because at that point if a character is already finished, its kinda hard to add a nuance like that and it be good aka make sense. Lets say Reinhardt is a finished character (which he is). Lets make him gay. Does that work without having to change most of his character? Maybe if you make him bi, but even then it FEELS like pandering, which to me, doesn't make sense. It's a way to ruin a character for the sake of diversity. Sure people can be closet gay and show none of that, but does that even appeal or appease what people want in this? No, not really. But it's realistic, which is what you're speaking to. People don't want realistic gay characters, they want compelling gay characters. (atleast from what im gathering because they don't like the amount of options, or the options in general)

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11 minutes ago, Tsak said:

Lets say Reinhardt is a finished character (which he is). Lets make him gay. Does that work without having to change most of his character?

I mean, if you go ahead and pick a male character who has established feelings for a female character, strangely enough, making them gay would result in changes. Not every character has established feelings for an opposite-sex character. Try not intentionally picking a terrible example.

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9 minutes ago, Tsak said:

I specifically said shoehorning a character design into making them gay for the sake of it, is not good character design. because at that point if a character is already finished, its kinda hard to add a nuance like that and it be good aka make sense. Lets say Reinhardt is a finished character (which he is). Lets make him gay. Does that work without having to change most of his character? Maybe if you make him bi, but even then it FEELS like pandering, which to me, doesn't make sense. It's a way to ruin a character for the sake of diversity. Sure people can be closet gay and show none of that, but does that even appeal or appease what people want in this? No, not really. But it's realistic, which is what you're speaking to. People don't want realistic gay characters, they want compelling gay characters. (atleast from what im gathering because they don't like the amount of options, or the options in general)

Is there any part of Reinhardt's character that is specifically heterosexual? Does he get married to a woman or hit on women often? I legit don't know, by the way.

But if not, then yes, making him gay absolutely works without changing his character. Why wouldn't it? And how does this ruin him? It just says that he's a character first and a gay man second.

And yes, this absolutely appeases people who want more gay representation (so long as it is clear, somehow, that he is gay). I don't mean closet gay, but not always showing that the character is gay. You don't seem to understand what LGBT people want as far as representation.

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4 minutes ago, Florete said:

Is there any part of Reinhardt's character that is specifically heterosexual? Does he get married to a woman or hit on women often? I legit don't know, by the way.

From memory, confirmed by a glance on the wiki, he wants to fuck Ishtar. So it's a pretty terrible example given that Ishtar's story role can't really be replaced by another man in FE5.

Edited by Parrhesia

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1 minute ago, Parrhesia said:

From memory, confirmed by a glance on the wiki, he wants to fuck Ishtar.

Doesn't Ishtar have a brother that looks pretty much exactly like her but is a dude? Just make him the main romance for Reinhardt and the story probably stays the same

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Ishtor is a nobody who dies a long time before his sister. I'm not even sure he appears in FE5, and dies offstage to Seliph's army during the events of the lategame. Meanwhile, Ishtar's a relatively major player. So, no, it doesn't really work.

Pick 95% of characters, though, and it doesn't really make a difference. Hell, Olwen works. Sure, she can potentially marry Fred (apparently?), but if her romantic interest was Selphina instead, would that affect the plot? No.

(Which isn't even particularly relevant to the discussion, which is writing gay characters, not retconning them as such.)

Edited by Parrhesia

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11 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's not entirely correct. I don't think following what I suggested would decrease the number of LGBT pairings. It would just replace a Heather with a Linhardt. 

Heather is gay and that's kinda all she is. Soleil technically(and strangely) isn't gay and her technically not being gay is all she is. Linhardt is gay but that's not all he is. Its part of him but it gets to join other aspects of his personality like laziness, wasted intellect, a small amount of sass, fear of blood and a carefree attitude. Heather is a gay character, Soleil is technically not a gay character and Linhardt is a character who just happens to be gay.

Its true most people would assume a character is straight until confirmed otherwise. I'm sure most people expected Linhardt to be straight. But that's hardly a bad thing. Me being surprised Linhardt is an LGBT option strikes me as an indication that its better handled than if I would identify him as gay at first glance. Because unless we're talking about people who match all the stereotypical traits you wouldn't identify a real person as gay at first glance either. 

He bi man not gay. Full on gay is leon and maybe lucius in fe7 remake.

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I'll say here what I said on the same topic on another board. What this game needs is not necessarily everybody to be Bi, but a good mix of Straight, Gay and Bisexual characters. Let some characters only be romanced by Byleth of the same gender, others by Byleth of the opposite gender, and others by both. Regardless of whether you play as Male or Female Byleth and choose to make them Gay or Straight, you should have plenty of choices to pick from.

I also feel it's better to give every character a clearly defined sexuality because it can lead to more interesting conversations that can help build up the characters rather than just repeating the conversations for both genders.

I'm signing the petition. I'm not expecting IntSys to do much about it but I hope they address it, or at the very least take the advice for future entries. We're long past the era were "Baby steps" are a valid excuse.

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2 hours ago, Jave said:

I'm signing the petition. I'm not expecting IntSys to do much about it but I hope they address it, or at the very least take the advice for future entries. We're long past the era were "Baby steps" are a valid excuse.

Not that I disagree. But expecting them to make decent changes is expecting alot. I mean, we still have terrible character/weapon balance, this far into the series. I wouldn't expect anything from them, to be honest.

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It's really obvious that the reason that Sothis and Rhea are S-rankable regardless of Byleth's gender is because they are NPC characters that can only support with Byleth. They're a special case. Putting those two aside it's 3 to 3 which is equal.

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2 hours ago, Popers1328 said:

It's really obvious that the reason that Sothis and Rhea are S-rankable regardless of Byleth's gender is because they are NPC characters that can only support with Byleth. They're a special case. Putting those two aside it's 3 to 3 which is equal.

The S supports for Alois and Gilbert are not romantic (with the Alois paired ending even having male Byleth marry a woman), so even if we went with your logic, the number of same gender romance options is 1 to 3 which is not equal.

Edited by PurpleHairedMage

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To be honest, as a straight guy who is not the best about theses kinds of things, I was still stunned at the m/m options.

I ASSUMED Claude would be an option. After all, if Edelgard is an option it’s only fair. Or at least Dmitri or... something. I was also surprised that the supports are basically the exact same. I don’t... know if that’s a good or bad thing.

But yeah, the options are so skewed it’s ridiculous.

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21 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

Ishtor is a nobody who dies a long time before his sister. I'm not even sure he appears in FE5, and dies offstage to Seliph's army during the events of the lategame. Meanwhile, Ishtar's a relatively major player. So, no, it doesn't really work.

 

He doesn't, he gets only a namedrop at the start of Chapter 20, by which point he dead.

21 hours ago, Parrhesia said:

Pick 95% of characters, though, and it doesn't really make a difference. Hell, Olwen works. Sure, she can potentially marry Fred (apparently?), but if her romantic interest was Selphina instead, would that affect the plot? No.

Are you looking to a homewrecker? Selphina has Glade as her husband, who else gives her the Brave Bow?

I'm not sure if Alfred weds Olwen, it'd make sense, since the Exile translation says "he went on to marry a young noblewoman with close ties to Freege's inner circle". Olwen's ending says she married "a rather unremarkable man". And Alfred's ending says an age difference made the couple the butt of jokes, which begs the question, do the ages SF has listed and I think are canonical, enough to make fun of? Alfred is apparently 25, Olwen 18, seven years of difference. Selphina is 26 to Glade's 34 as an aside.

 

21 hours ago, Book Bro said:

1 confirmed gay Leon and 1 confirmed lesbian Heather

You forgot Kyza. Understandable, since NoA toned down his gayness for uprightness, which is still part of his Japanese characterization. But the gay man gets subdued, while Heather doesn't hide at all, odd.

Of course, Kyza is just Leon with some Touch of Gray hair dye and some genetic modifications. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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On 8/11/2019 at 1:10 AM, Parrhesia said:

'Forced diversity' is an insane thing to argue. The world isn't universally full of straight white cis men. FE generally has a cast of about 30-40 PCs; a smattering of them being queer is to be expected.

Less than 5 percent of the population in the US is some form of LGBT.

Out of 30-40 people, I would argue that you're pretty unlikely to find a "smattering" of them to be anything but straight. Maybe one or two of them, maybe three, but even then that would be unlikely.

You wanting something to be true doesn't make it true. Guaranteeing that at least x amount of characters are nonstraight is forcing diversity to appease a loud, small group of people.

Edited by De Geso

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 I think it's safe to assume that the developers/writers for Three Houses had little to no intention to put in any m/m options. I'd argue that Linhardt was shoed in as an option to 'avoid backlash' and here are the reasons why: 

3 (arguably 5?) romantic f/f options vs 1 m/m option is so ridiculous that it's actually quite funny.

Between the paired endings of students, there is a handful of explicit f/f endings whereas there are maybe 1 or 2 paired endings between male students that can be considered romantic (but probably intended to be a totally platonic close friendship like all close male relationships in FE). 

Alois' S support have you marrying a girl (arguable because this is obviously implemented to fulfil a gay man's ultimate fantasy -.-).  

The fact that they could've easily avoided this 'mess' by simply changing pronouns of the supports and they still chose not to really shows that they're pretty unconcerned with m/m options. 

I put 'mess' in quotations because I honestly don't think the devs or most of the FE community consider this an issue. The fact that there's not much backlash since the game's release and anytime someone from the community raises the issue gets told to shut up (mostly on reddit) shows that at the end of the day, the FE fans are largely unaffected by the whole situation. In fact, the game is pretty well received and the most common criticism I see is that it's too easy. Why would IS or Nintendo change anything relating to the current situation now and future games when the majority of the fans have shown that they don't care or see the lack of m/m options as an issue at all? 

Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I think Three Houses might be setting a standard of what to expect in future FE games. Maybe it would be lucky if we still get to have 1 m/m option in the future.

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