Best Weapon Usage?

[dragonlordsd]

4 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

What's do special about the weapons of Zoltan compared to your usual weaponry?

They are superior to silver weapons, but not usually better than brave weapons.

 

21 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I completely benched the Relics because they're terrible. Not terrible in terms of raw power, mind you, but terrible because of how much it costs you to repair them: 20 measly uses + ridiculously rare materials you can only get if you fully break a monster's barrier (with no guarantee you'll even get the right material for the Relic you would want to repair) + a shitload of money = I'm not going to use that. Like ever.

Otherwise, my go to weaponry is the free Steel something+ and later Silver something+ you get from participating in relevant tournaments at the monastery. Repairing those is fairly cheap and they come with more uses and more power than regular Steel or Silver weapons. I like to keep these things simple and efficient; that's the curse of being the son of an accountant.
EDIT: Forgot to mention everyone else who doesn't get a Steel something+ or Silver something+: If I have the materials to spare, I usually forge one of those for them or just use regular weaponry. On some characters, I even like to keep standard Iron weapons, because don't have much weight compared to Steel weapons especially.

Relics have a couple of things. First, some are so much better than others that it’s difficult to actually compare them.

Second, I imagine that they would be much more useful if enemies had higher stats overall.

Brave weapons are most useful if the enemy has LESS defense than you have strength. This, unfortunately, is the case for most enemies.

Relics are most useful if the enemy has MORE defense than you have strength.

[Shadow Mir]

30 minutes ago, De Geso said:

The might loss on Killers in Fates is more than made up for by being able to actually double.

You are just wrong, and oddly obdurate, about Berserkers in Fates. But I don't want to get into this discussion again, lol.

Also - I misremembered Killers in 3H having less might than Steel Weapons, they have the same might (swords do, anyway). Still, I think they're kind of heavy and would rather use a Silver or Brave weapon. Well, except for Combat Arts - Brave Weapon don't get the doubling effect with Combat Arts, so using Braves with them is usually a bad call.

Except you're still losing enough might to not make it worth it, especially when killer weapons don't give nearly enough crit chance to make up for it (that is, aside from the "Great" Club, which instead is inaccurate to the point of being unusable).

Except you're forgetting that Fates is a new low for axe infantry, which Berserkers are. Who the hell am I gonna use, Miss Whiffsalot (AKA Charlotte, who happens to be one of the absolute worst units in the game)? Arthur the Liability, who is easily one of the worst units in the game? That's a lot of risk for very little reward, you know. But I digress.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Silly]

Keep in mind that brave weapons are only excellent on player phase. On enemy phase they're hot garbage.

If your unit does not ORKO on enemy phase with a Silver weapon then often the best option is a Killer weapon.

[De Geso]

22 minutes ago, Jayvee94 said:

Looking at the forge paths. Had anyone really tried to upgrade existing weapons instead of buying the same in the armory?

IE. Hand Axe to Short Axe

Also, has anyone actually needed a longbow?

Do we have decent candidates for magic weapons?

Edelgard and Byleth both make decent use of the magic weapons (assuming you mean the Levin Sword and its compatriots). Edelgard has surprisingly high magic, and Byleth can do just about anything anyway (and he'll usually have decent sword rank by the time you get Levin Swords if you go with Swords as your main weapon of choice).

I guess mages have potential if you use instruction to get their ranks high enough to use them.

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Except you're still losing enough might to not make it worth it, especially when killer weapons don't give nearly enough crit chance to make up for it (that is, aside from the "Great" Club, which instead is inaccurate to the point of being unusable).

Except you're forgetting that Fates is a new low for axe infantry, which Berserkers are. Who the hell am I gonna use, Miss Whiffsalot (AKA Charlotte, who happens to be one of the absolute worst units in the game)? Arthur the Liability, who is easily one of the worst units in the game? That's a lot of risk for very little reward, you know. But I digress.

Go be wrong about Fates in the Fates forum.

[DragonFlames]

15 minutes ago, dragonlordsd said:

Relics have a couple of things. First, some are so much better than others that it’s difficult to actually compare them.

Second, I imagine that they would be much more useful if enemies had higher stats overall.

Brave weapons are most useful if the enemy has LESS defense than you have strength. This, unfortunately, is the case for most enemies.

Relics are most useful if the enemy has MORE defense than you have strength.

This is a good point. As it stands, though, I'd still peg them as too inefficient.
Well, except for Thyrsus and the staff you get from Flayn's and Seteth's paralogue.

I'll admit I have never once used Brave weapons in Three Houses so far. I didn't feel like I needed them, either, to be honest.

[Shadow Mir]

1 minute ago, De Geso said:

Go be wrong about Fates in the Fates forum.

Thank you for this thought-provoking commentary. Allow me to respond with something that's equally convincing. 

no u

[Silly]

12 minutes ago, De Geso said:

 I guess mages have potential if you use instruction to get their ranks high enough to use them.

No no no no no.

Magic weapons on mages is a huge, HUGE trap.

What niche does a magic weapon have? It allows your physical unit to target enemy res, which means that against high def, low res enemies you're hitting their weaker stat.

What does a mage not need? An additional weapon that lets them hit enemy res, because they ALREADY hit res with literally any of their attacks. Also take into account that using a magic weapon instead of any spell you happen to have means that your attack is not boosted by Reason/Faith Prowess (as a mage these will likely be your highest weapon ranks) and is not affected by Thrysus or Caduceus Staff.

There are very few situations where you have access to magic but still choose to use a magic weapon instead.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Silly

[DragonFlames]

6 minutes ago, Silly said:

No no no no no.

Magic weapons on mages is a huge, HUGE trap.

What niche does a magic weapon have? It allows your physical unit to target enemy res, which means that against high def, low res enemies you're hitting their weaker stat.

What does a mage not need? An additional weapon that lets them hit enemy res, because they ALREADY hit res with literally any of their attacks. Also take into account that using a magic weapon instead of any spell you happen to have means that your attack is not boosted by Reason/Faith Prowess (as a mage these will likely be your highest weapon ranks) and is not affected by Thrysus or Caduceus Staff.

There are very few situations where you have access to magic but still choose to use a magic weapon instead.

Like running out of uses on your magic or the magic you have left causing you to get doubled, maybe?

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Silly said:

No no no no no.

Magic weapons on mages is a huge, HUGE trap.

What niche does a magic weapon have? It allows your physical unit to target enemy res, which means that against high def, low res enemies you're hitting their weaker stat.

What does a mage not need? An additional weapon that lets them hit enemy res, because they ALREADY hit res with literally any of their attacks. Also take into account that using a magic weapon instead of any spell you happen to have means that your attack is not boosted by Reason/Faith Prowess (as a mage these will likely be your highest weapon ranks) and is not affected by Thrysus or Caduceus Staff.

There are very few situations where you have access to magic but still choose to use a magic weapon instead.

I can largely agree with this, but I wanna ask, are there any physical units that have enough magic to make magic weapons viable? Because those tended to be rare in past Fire Emblem games, and I'm not sure this game is much better with regards to that.

[Jayvee94]

Just now, Shadow Mir said:

I can largely agree with this, but I wanna ask, are there any physical units that have enough magic to make magic weapons viable? Because those tended to be rare in past Fire Emblem games, and I'm not sure this game is much better with regards to that.

Cavalier!Lorenz Hermann Gloucester is our best example. However, he could be heavily reliant on Arrow of Indra or a magic based combat art.

[DragonFlames]

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I can largely agree with this, but I wanna ask, are there any physical units that have enough magic to make magic weapons viable? Because those tended to be rare in past Fire Emblem games, and I'm not sure this game is much better with regards to that.

Byleth, Edelgard, Felix, maybe Lorenz, maybe Claude. Those are the ones that have been getting decent magic stats despite being mostly physical units for me.
Interestingly enough, nearly everyone has at least an existing magic growth. I've never seen physical units gain this much magic without ever reclassing any of them to a primarily magic-using class. I didn't use magic weapons much, because, like Relics, the materials needed to repair them are pretty hard to come by.
At least you can get more than one of each, I guess.

[Silly]

7 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

Like running out of uses on your magic or the magic you have left causing you to get doubled, maybe?

When have you ever run out of magic...

Not to mention that the Levin Sword, the lightest magic weapon (outside of the gauntlets, which are terrible) weighs 9. Which means that outside of seige magic, the only Reason tome that is heavier than it are the super high level ones (Agnea's Arrow, Dark Spikes, Hades). Don't even get me started on the Bolt Axe, which weighs 15!

 

2 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I can largely agree with this, but I wanna ask, are there any physical units that have enough magic to make magic weapons viable? Because those tended to be rare in past Fire Emblem games, and I'm not sure this game is much better with regards to that.

There aren't that many. Edelgard is probably the most obvious one given her standout magic growth (though she probably doesn't actually need to use a bolt axe to kill armors, she can just use a hammer). Lorenz also sports a fairly high magic growth which you can access with a magic weapon if you don't want to put him in Dark Knight. Other than that, they're very niche, but can be used by units that happen to have gained a respectable amount of magic (maybe RNG is nice to you). It isn't out of the question for someone like Ingrid to be doing more damage to armors with a magic weapon, given that she has a 35 Str and 35 Mag growth.

[Silly]

2 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

I didn't use magic weapons much, because, like Relics, the materials needed to repair them are pretty hard to come by.

There's a lategame quest that lets you access a shop where you can buy arcane crystals.

At least, it existed on the BE route. I'm not there yet on my second run so I can't confirm that it exists on all routes.

[dragonlordsd]

53 minutes ago, DragonFlames said:

This is a good point. As it stands, though, I'd still peg them as too inefficient.
Well, except for Thyrsus and the staff you get from Flayn's and Seteth's paralogue.

I'll admit I have never once used Brave weapons in Three Houses so far. I didn't feel like I needed them, either, to be honest.

Yeah, I'll chalk that up to general difficulty lack. It's really a balance issue.

Murdock, in Binding Blade, had 25 base defense on normal mode, plus throne bonus. The MAX strength for a hero is 25. This means that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a hero with a brave axe to do more damage to Murdock than a hero with Armads, even though the brave axe has 10 might to Armads' 18.

Since the stat caps are much higher in this game, it's harder to balance the bosses to appropriately ceiling out, but even so, most enemies could use some extra stats.

That said, what else do you use umbral steel for?

[De Geso]

45 minutes ago, Silly said:

No no no no no.

Magic weapons on mages is a huge, HUGE trap.

What niche does a magic weapon have? It allows your physical unit to target enemy res, which means that against high def, low res enemies you're hitting their weaker stat.

What does a mage not need? An additional weapon that lets them hit enemy res, because they ALREADY hit res with literally any of their attacks. Also take into account that using a magic weapon instead of any spell you happen to have means that your attack is not boosted by Reason/Faith Prowess (as a mage these will likely be your highest weapon ranks) and is not affected by Thrysus or Caduceus Staff.

There are very few situations where you have access to magic but still choose to use a magic weapon instead.

That's a fair point - you're right.

[dragonlordsd]

49 minutes ago, Silly said:

No no no no no.

Magic weapons on mages is a huge, HUGE trap.

What niche does a magic weapon have? It allows your physical unit to target enemy res, which means that against high def, low res enemies you're hitting their weaker stat.

What does a mage not need? An additional weapon that lets them hit enemy res, because they ALREADY hit res with literally any of their attacks. Also take into account that using a magic weapon instead of any spell you happen to have means that your attack is not boosted by Reason/Faith Prowess (as a mage these will likely be your highest weapon ranks) and is not affected by Thrysus or Caduceus Staff.

There are very few situations where you have access to magic but still choose to use a magic weapon instead.

Eh, it's really a trade off.

Bolt Axe has 14 might. In terms of pure might, it will only be out damaged by Agnea's arrow, Ragnarok, and Hades Omega. Additionally, any spell that could realistically compete with it in damage is severely restricted in usage. Ragnarok has a maximum of six uses (depending on class) while the others only have 4. Four casts for a large level is not a good idea strategically. Bolt axe also has three range. While the other spells CAN have 3-4, it requires using Thrysus or Caduceus, and you only have one of each, so someone will be left out, unless you're only using two mages. Further, not everyone with good magic has access to good spells. For example, my Marianne has higher magic than Lysithea, at 41 to her 40. But her best spell is the fairly weak Fimbulventer.

HOWEVER. 

Bolt axe has a weight of 15, heavier than any of those spells. Additionally, it costs resources to obtain and repair, and uses up durability. Further, it is still affected by terrain, unlike all other magic, and there are more forests in this game than any other game I can remember.

All in all, it's not super clear cut. Some mages will NEVER require a magic weapon (Lysithea, Dorothea), whereas others will ALWAYS want a magic weapon (Edelgard, gotta get that 3 range!), Ingrid, Marianne.

Others fall in the middle.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

Byleth, Edelgard, Felix, maybe Lorenz, maybe Claude. Those are the ones that have been getting decent magic stats despite being mostly physical units for me.
Interestingly enough, nearly everyone has at least an existing magic growth. I've never seen physical units gain this much magic without ever reclassing any of them to a primarily magic-using class. I didn't use magic weapons much, because, like Relics, the materials needed to repair them are pretty hard to come by.
At least you can get more than one of each, I guess.

Speaking of, I've been watching omegaevolution's playthrough, and he's regularly commented about magic level ups.

1 hour ago, Silly said:

There aren't that many. Edelgard is probably the most obvious one given her standout magic growth (though she probably doesn't actually need to use a bolt axe to kill armors, she can just use a hammer). Lorenz also sports a fairly high magic growth which you can access with a magic weapon if you don't want to put him in Dark Knight. Other than that, they're very niche, but can be used by units that happen to have gained a respectable amount of magic (maybe RNG is nice to you). It isn't out of the question for someone like Ingrid to be doing more damage to armors with a magic weapon, given that she has a 35 Str and 35 Mag growth.

I see. I was largely curious because like I said, only a few physical units over the course of the series could use magic weapons well; off the top of my head, the only ones coming to mind are Mist, Elincia (both of whom are in a game where magic weapons save for the swords were not that great; both are healers, too, which means you're likely going out of your way to raise their sword rank), Robin, Corrin (both of whom are avatars), and Saizo (who has a great magic growth for a physical unit). In particular, I find the Bolt Axe especially hard to get any use out of - Awakening is the one game where it could reasonably be used.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Shadow Mir

[Sire]

Regarding the Levin Sword+, I mainly used it for Byleth in my first playthrough (Hard Classic). Yes, Byleth's MAG stat falls behind his STR, but handling Archers with that 1-3 range becomes really useful. Also, Byleth may not be training in Reason or Faith. At the very least, I find the Levin Sword to be better than Handaxes and Javelins.

When I used for my Dancer Lysithea (NG+, Hard Classic), that is more "for fun" than optimal. Lysithea can become a "dodge tank" of sorts, especially with the +20 Sword Avoid from being a Dancer. So, everyone tries to hit Lysithea and she just annihilates them with her Levin Sword. (Disclaimer: I have been pumping statboosters into Lysithea, so this is probably not a optimal tactic. Like I said, this is for fun and not efficiency.)

The main reason I recommend the Levin Sword+ is the 1-3 range to counter Archers/Snipers, and because Javelins and Hand Axes seem to suck due to their massive drawbacks. (The Spear seems to be doing okay though, but I have that on Dimitri). If you toss on the +1 Range Staff you get from Seteh's & Flayn's paralogue, the default spells on any spellcaster is enough to counter archers. Then, some spellcasters innately learn 1-3 range spells (Thoron, Mire) which can be used as well.

For other magic weapons, they exist for more "hybrid" characters, such as Edelgard, Felix, Sylvain, Ingrid, Lorenz, Ignantz, Manuela, and Seteth. I'm not saying for everyone to have a magic weapon, but if you want a character or two who specializes in them, go for it.
... Now I want to see a Levin Sword on Ingrid while she's on a Pegasus. Guess that's an idea for a later run.
* * * * *
As for Killer Weapons, I just use them over Steel weapons as they have similar statlines and because critting constantly is rather fun. Granted, I've been running Crit builds for Petra and Felix, so that's why I get so much use out of them (especially when using the Wo Dao instead of a Killer Sword).

My other characters tend to use Silvers or the other unique weapons.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Sire

[Silly]

1 hour ago, dragonlordsd said:

Eh, it's really a trade off.

Bolt Axe has 14 might. In terms of pure might, it will only be out damaged by Agnea's arrow, Ragnarok, and Hades Omega. Additionally, any spell that could realistically compete with it in damage is severely restricted in usage. Ragnarok has a maximum of six uses (depending on class) while the others only have 4. Four casts for a large level is not a good idea strategically. Bolt axe also has three range. While the other spells CAN have 3-4, it requires using Thrysus or Caduceus, and you only have one of each, so someone will be left out, unless you're only using two mages. Further, not everyone with good magic has access to good spells. For example, my Marianne has higher magic than Lysithea, at 41 to her 40. But her best spell is the fairly weak Fimbulventer.

HOWEVER. 

Bolt axe has a weight of 15, heavier than any of those spells. Additionally, it costs resources to obtain and repair, and uses up durability. Further, it is still affected by terrain, unlike all other magic, and there are more forests in this game than any other game I can remember.

All in all, it's not super clear cut. Some mages will NEVER require a magic weapon (Lysithea, Dorothea), whereas others will ALWAYS want a magic weapon (Edelgard, gotta get that 3 range!), Ingrid, Marianne.

Others fall in the middle.

I've found that enemies in this game tend to have fairly low Res. If your mage is able to double you will be ORKOing regardless of what weapon you use. 

Also, Fimbulvetr isn't "fairly weak". It has 12 mt, 65 hit, 25 crit, 10 weight. Compare that with the Bolt Axe's 14 mt, 60 hit, 0 crit, and 15 weight. The Bolt Axe is only 2 mt stronger, and in return you lose out on all the other stats. Plus, keep in mind that Fimbulvetr is also boosted by Reason Prowess skills, as well as Black Tomefaire, which are more common skills for you to have compared to Axefaire on a mage or significant Axe Prowess levels. Plus, Marianne learns Thoron, which innately has 3 range. Throw in Tomefaire and it's just as powerful as a Bolt Axe, while likely having considerably more hit, extra crit, and importantly, +8 AS over the Bolt Axe.

Thrysus and Caduceus Staff should be enough for your dedicated mages. I haven't found it very good to have more than 2-3 core magic users on a team (since while magic utility is very important, the mage classes themselves are pretty terrible and need to be worked around until you get to master tier). Throw Thrysus on one, Caduceus Staff on the other, and if you happen to have a third mage they are likely a bit more utility focused or already innately have 3 range and can get away with not having a staff. Plus leveling Reason to S rank also comes with +1 range innately.

Mages almost never want a magic weapon (you might be able to make an exception for relics or something, but for the most part spells will suffice). Magic weapons are good on units that primarily attack defense but still have a fairly reasonable magic stat, like Edelgard or Ingrid as you mentioned. But those units are not generally mages, and if you make them mages you probably want to use your actual spells most of the time and not magic weaponry.

[Shadow Mir]

3 minutes ago, Sire said:

... Now I want to see a Levin Sword on Ingrid while she's on a Pegasus. Guess that's an idea for a later run.

Speaking of which, I saw the aforementioned omegaevolution do just that in one of his more recent videos.

[Silly]

1 minute ago, Sire said:

Regarding the Levin Sword+, I mainly used it for Byleth in my first playthrough (Hard Classic). Yes, Byleth's MAG stat falls behind his STR, but handling Archers with that 1-3 range becomes really useful. Also, Byleth may not be training in Reason or Faith. At the very least, I find the Levin Sword to be better than Handaxes and Javelins.

That's because Hand Axes and Javelins are horrendous in this game.

Your use of the Levin Sword here is fairly justified, as you're using on a unit that has reasonable magic and might not naturally have access to spells. They're bad on spellcasters but fairly good on hybrid characters that can attack with both damage types.

Also, the best way to deal with archers is to kill them on player phase with a high move unit. If you have to kill them on enemy phase then the best way to handle them is usually your own archer. But in a pinch a mage with 1-3 range or a unit with a magic weapon can work, so it is a niche.

[Chaotix]

2 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

Looking at the forge paths. Had anyone really tried to upgrade existing weapons instead of buying the same in the armory?

IE. Hand Axe to Short Axe

Also, has anyone actually needed a longbow?

Do we have decent candidates for magic weapons?

I played Edelgard's entire route without ever having a Longbow, never ran into any range problems. Curved Shot, Deadeye, Bow Knights - all let you get crazy good range relative to when they are available.

Similarly it's usually not even worth bothering with the ranged lances/axes because Close Counter exists and bows are so good.

As for magic weapons - at base level they are just okay, but forge them and they get 1-3 range, which is amazing. Arrow of Indra (the only Magic Lance) is only available in Edelgard's route though. But Levin Sword, Bolt Axe, Magic Bow, and Aura Knuckles are all forgeable from basic weapons.

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Chaotix said:

I played Edelgard's entire route without ever having a Longbow, never ran into any range problems. Curved Shot, Deadeye, Bow Knights - all let you get crazy good range relative to when they are available.

Similarly it's usually not even worth bothering with the ranged lances/axes because Close Counter exists and bows are so good.

As for magic weapons - at base level they are just okay, but forge them and they get 1-3 range, which is amazing. Arrow of Indra (the only Magic Lance) is only available in Edelgard's route though. But Levin Sword, Bolt Axe, Magic Bow, and Aura Knuckles are all forgeable from basic weapons.

Deadeye's not very useful, if you ask me - no hit boost to make up for the fact that you're taking a hit penalty, unlike Curved Shot, and at max range, you might as well forget about hitting whatever you were trying to attack.

The Levin Sword is great, but the Bolt Axe and Aura Knuckles... not so much. The former has 15 weight, and the latter is locked to 1 range, even when forged.

[Chaotix]

9 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Deadeye's not very useful, if you ask me - no hit boost to make up for the fact that you're taking a hit penalty, unlike Curved Shot, and at max range, you might as well forget about hitting whatever you were trying to attack.

The Levin Sword is great, but the Bolt Axe and Aura Knuckles... not so much. The former has 15 weight, and the latter is locked to 1 range, even when forged.

Deadeye is definitely more situational, but most archers have high Dex and +20 Bow Accuracy is a thing. I'd argue there are situations where without Deadeye, your archer wouldn't be attacking at all, in which case it's good to have it even if you only have 50% chance to hit.

Example: Dedue's and Manuela/Hanneman's paralogues, where the map is split vertically down the middle by two tiles and you're unlikely to have a Bow Knight yet.

[Burklight]

2 hours ago, DragonFlames said:

Byleth, Edelgard, Felix, maybe Lorenz, maybe Claude. Those are the ones that have been getting decent magic stats despite being mostly physical units for me.
Interestingly enough, nearly everyone has at least an existing magic growth. I've never seen physical units gain this much magic without ever reclassing any of them to a primarily magic-using class. I didn't use magic weapons much, because, like Relics, the materials needed to repair them are pretty hard to come by.
At least you can get more than one of each, I guess.

The dark merchant sells them. Gotta wait till sorta late to buy them, but you can absolutely buy them.