Equippable Abilities Tier List

[LegendOfLoog]

20 minutes ago, dragontamer said:

The units I posted earlier have Proficiency 5 weapons (-10 Crit).

Yeah, I forgot about that. So if we switch to Fraldarius Soldiers for the extra 5 Crit, you're left with 93-98 Crit in the worst case scenario. I still think that's solid since it's about half and half for units that have 20 vs 30 Lck. Also, I'm also not entirely sure how the 2RN system works, but if it applies to Crit like it does to Hit and Avoid, this is close to 100% effectively, right? So the chance of him taking a hit is incredibly low, and he can one-shot everything on the map. And in a game with Divine Pulse, such a small percentage of failure is essentially non-existent. 

7 minutes ago, Cysx said:

But you probably shouldn't. Especially considering it's Dimitri we're talking about, spoilers, etc.

I'm 100% certain that you can get Lance Crit +10 by Chapter 22 on Maddening because I've done it myself. You're only investing into Authority, Riding, and Lances with this build. All of those are strengths. Keep in mind that I'm assuming you're literally tutoring him at every opportunity to make up for his midgame issue. You can even dump Riding if you want, but I easily managed to get Lance Crit +10, Movement +1, and Battalion Wrath/Vantage a few chapters before Chapter 22, so I think you probably should consider it as a part of the build. This is all without a Knowledge Gem btw which would make these concerns non-existent. 

[Silly]

Crit is traditionally 1RN.

[Cysx]

3 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

I'm 100% certain that you can get Lance Crit +10 by Chapter 22 on Maddening because I've done it myself. You're only investing into Authority, Riding, and Lances with this build. All of those are strengths. Keep in mind that I'm assuming you're literally tutoring him at every opportunity to make up for his midgame issue. You can even dump Riding if you want, but I easily managed to get Lance Crit +10, Movement +1, and Battalion Wrath/Vantage a few chapters before Chapter 22, so I think you probably should consider it as a part of the build. This is all without a Knowledge Gem btw which would make these concerns non-existent. 

I wasn't saying it was impossible, but unless we're building for one or two chapters in the game there's not much sense in including it in the calculations imo. You can also get tutoring-screwed since it's completely rng-based and all, which is another fun jar of pickles we'll probably have to deal with eventually

Edited September 23, 2019 by Cysx

[LegendOfLoog]

2 minutes ago, Silly said:

Crit is traditionally 1RN.

Ah, ok. I guess it's slightly less good, then. 

1 minute ago, Cysx said:

I wasn't saying it was impossible, but unless we're building for one or two chapters in the game there's not much sense in including it in the calculations imo.

This was to show that Wrath + Vantage was a viable strategy in the endgame for dealing with enemy units on Enemy Phase. I also can't do any other calculations because I only bothered to document the stats for Chapter 22 enemies on Maddening for endgame comparisons, so that's the main reason tbh. 

[Cysx]

3 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

This was to show that Wrath + Vantage was a viable strategy in the endgame for dealing with enemy units on Enemy Phase. I also can't do any other calculations because I only bothered to document the stats for Chapter 22 enemies on Maddening for endgame comparisons, so that's the main reason tbh. 

I know, I know, I just don't see that much value in that truth be told; it's just one chapter, and a difficulty spike to boot. Though I am assuming there's not a massive Lck difference on enemies from say, ch 20 to 22, and I could very well be wrong.

 

[LegendOfLoog]

7 minutes ago, Cysx said:

I know, I know, I just don't see that much value in that truth be told; it's just one chapter, and a difficulty spike to boot. Though I am assuming there's not a massive Lck difference on enemies from say, ch 20 to 22, and I could very well be wrong.

Depends on how exactly enemy growths work, I guess. Just looking at it myself, the only significant enemy Lck growth is for Mortal Savant which has a 20% boost. If Dimitri's (Dex + Lck) / 2 is mostly proportional to the Luck of most enemies throughout the post-timeskip, then he'll probably hover around the 80-90 Crit range for most of the game without Lance Crit +10. I also forgot about the Critical Ring earlier, so that helps too I guess. 

As far as its value, BL Chapter 22 is probably the most difficult map on the route after the earlygame, so I would say it's more important than the comparatively easy midgame, even if it's a single chapter. Many of your other combat units suddenly struggle, especially fliers since it's an indoor chapter. There's no Cooking boosts, you can't Warp cheese the chapter, and enemies have fairly high AS (even Ingrid needs a Speed Ring to double and ORKO the mages on Enemy Phase). Having a unit who can walk into hordes of enemies and fairly reliably one-shot them on Enemy Phase is nice. I wouldn't consider it valuable if Dimitri sucked up to that point, but since he's good regardless, I think it's fine to build for lategame. 

[dragontamer]

1 hour ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Ah, ok. I guess it's slightly less good, then. 

 

+10 Crit is available on Swordmaster and Warrior. +20 Crit is available on War Master. You need to master Warrior for (Non-battalion) Wraith anyway. If the strat is anywhere as good as you claim it to be, the goal of optimization is to make it relevant sooner. Warrior still has Axefaire and Killer Axe+ is reasonable, since it can be crafted from the Eastern Merchant.

 

I'm assuming your Dimitri build uses Battalion Vantage / Battalion Wrath? Normal Vantage / Normal Wrath requires Hero mastery and Warrior mastery respectively, but would be applicable to more characters.

Edited September 23, 2019 by dragontamer

[LegendOfLoog]

8 minutes ago, dragontamer said:

+10 Crit is available on Swordmaster and Warrior. +20 Crit is available on War Master. You need to master Warrior for (Non-battalion) Wraith anyway. If the strat is anywhere as good as you claim it to be, the goal of optimization is to make it relevant sooner. Warrior still has Axefaire and Killer Axe+ is reasonable, since it can be crafted from the Eastern Merchant.

  

I'm assuming your Dimitri build uses Battalion Vantage / Battalion Wrath? Normal Vantage / Normal Wrath requires Hero mastery and Warrior mastery respectively, but would be applicable to more characters.

Yeah, Dimitri uses the Battalion versions as I personally think they're easier to use. Vantage actually requires Mercenary mastery, so if you had a unit who doesn't mind using Swords or Axes, then you could go Mercenary -> Warrior to get both. I do think there is some potential for mixing and matching here between Battalion versions and non-Battalion versions, but it does require a bit more careful management since the two contradict each other. I guess Devil weapons could actually help here as I don't think they reduce your Battalion health, so you don't have to worry about losing your Battalion early. The units that come with Battalion Vantage are:

• Byleth, Edelgard, Dimitri, Felix, Sylvain, Lorenz, Ignatz, Catherine

You can probably cross Lorenz, Ignatz, and Catherine off this list as none of them really want anything to do with Warrior. Edelgard and Felix are iffy, but if you are going War Master Felix, picking up Wrath along the way could be useful. I don't think holding off Wyvern mobility for Edelgard is worth getting Wrath personally. War Master Byleth could potentially work well here. Units with Battalion Wrath are:

• Hubert, Bernadetta, Caspar, Petra, Dimitri, Dedue, Annette, Claude, Hilda, Raphael, Seteth, Alois, Gilbert

I think most of these are out of the question for getting Vantage. The only two I can reasonably see going Mercenary are Petra and Claude since they have a Strength in Swords. Both of them might want to go Pegasus Knight/Brigand to pick up the respective Blow skill instead, though. Maybe I could see an argument for Dedue, but he's just going to be a worse Dimitri for the most part. 

I think the Wrath + Vantage strategy is good, but I'm not sure if some of the other units will have the stats necessary to approach 100% Crit without being in an Advanced class and have high enough Strength to still one-shot. I might test it on Byleth on my next run. 

 

[Silly]

Battalion Wrath and Vantage are much better than actual Wrath and Vantage, because if you're in actual Wrath/Vantage range and somehow don't kill the enemy then you might just die.

On the other hand, on the off chance that Dimitri doesn't kill something with Battalion Wrath + Vantage (you miss your attack, or you don't roll your 95 crit, or the enemy has miracle), you're still at full HP so getting hit by a single enemy isn't going to be a big deal.

[Johnzin]

1 hour ago, Silly said:

Battalion Wrath and Vantage are much better than actual Wrath and Vantage, because if you're in actual Wrath/Vantage range and somehow don't kill the enemy then you might just die.

On the other hand, on the off chance that Dimitri doesn't kill something with Battalion Wrath + Vantage (you miss your attack, or you don't roll your 95 crit, or the enemy has miracle), you're still at full HP so getting hit by a single enemy isn't going to be a big deal.

Vantage require HP < 50% too?

[Cysx]

6 hours ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Depends on how exactly enemy growths work, I guess. Just looking at it myself, the only significant enemy Lck growth is for Mortal Savant which has a 20% boost. If Dimitri's (Dex + Lck) / 2 is mostly proportional to the Luck of most enemies throughout the post-timeskip, then he'll probably hover around the 80-90 Crit range for most of the game without Lance Crit +10. I also forgot about the Critical Ring earlier, so that helps too I guess. 

As far as its value, BL Chapter 22 is probably the most difficult map on the route after the earlygame, so I would say it's more important than the comparatively easy midgame, even if it's a single chapter. Many of your other combat units suddenly struggle, especially fliers since it's an indoor chapter. There's no Cooking boosts, you can't Warp cheese the chapter, and enemies have fairly high AS (even Ingrid needs a Speed Ring to double and ORKO the mages on Enemy Phase). Having a unit who can walk into hordes of enemies and fairly reliably one-shot them on Enemy Phase is nice. I wouldn't consider it valuable if Dimitri sucked up to that point, but since he's good regardless, I think it's fine to build for lategame. 

Yeah see, that's fine logic for an unit that generally excels(what I really want is for people not to bring up final chapter numbers to demonstrate that an unit struggles for the whole game), but while I absolutely am nitpicking, the lack of Crit +10 does make one key difference on that build; your battalion is almost dead at all times. Taking a hit will very likely finish it, lowering your crit further to a still respectable but much less reliable value for the rest of the chapter.

Also it's minor, but BL gets a second dancing battalion for ch22, so all in all it may not actually be the hardest around, despite being (I assume) a sizeable stat bump for enemies.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Cysx

[LegendOfLoog]

45 minutes ago, Cysx said:

Yeah see, that's fine logic for an unit that generally excels(what I really want is for people not to bring up final chapter numbers to demonstrate that an unit struggles for the whole game), but while I absolutely am nitpicking, the lack of Crit +10 does make one key difference on that build; your battalion is almost dead at all times. Taking a hit will very likely finish it, lowering your crit further to a still respectable but much less reliable value for the rest of the chapter.

Also it's minor, but BL gets a second dancing battalion for ch22, so all in all it may not actually be the hardest around, despite being (I assume) a sizeable stat bump for enemies.

Battalion health is certainly a concern earlier on in the game, but higher level Battalions generally have higher HP pools as well. I know that Fraldarius Soldiers has something like 105, and the KOL Corps has 120 at base (not sure if it levels up at all atm). I don't know exactly how much damage a Battalion takes relative to the unit it's equipped to, but if the Battalion is relatively close to the highest point where Wrath + Vantage comes online, 35/40 Battalion Endurance is not that bad. Also, this is a bit niche, but I think every unit gets Defensive Tactics which halves battalion damage. If you consider that Dimitri should only really have Battalion Wrath, Battalion Vantage, and Lance Prowess as his required skills here from going Cavalier -> Paladin -> potentially Great Lord, he should have enough space to equip that before Lance Crit +10.

I see a two-fold use here. It slows down the rate that his Battalion takes damage, so it's less likely that the Battalion will have dangerously low Endurance before Wrath + Vantage is active. Once you're there, his Battalion will also survive for longer in the event he doesn't pull off a crit with his 80+ chance. Couple this with solid physical bulk and his Avoid personal, and I think the chances are that his Battalion will survive for quite a few hits even if the crit roll doesn't favor him.

I actually didn't need use any dance Battalions, so I can't say how useful it would have been. Didn't find the need since Dimitri's carrying occurs mostly on Enemy Phase.  

Edited September 24, 2019 by LegendOfLoog

[Silly]

From what I understand, if all you care about is beating the final chapter of BL you can fairly reasonably "cheese" it in 2-3 turns by rushing the boss.

You have Stride + Dance + Warp to move your combat units forward at a quick pace. Dance battalions also help you move more quickly or give you additional actions when fighting the boss.

You have Impregnable Wall + Sacred Shield battalions to ensure your advancing units survive through 1-2 enemy phases. In particular, the enemy seems to completely ignore Sacred Shield and will happily attack you at 2+ range even though they're doing no damage. Also the description on that ability is wrong, and it actually blocks both physical and magic attacks at 2+ range.

At the end you bonk the boss (who has a ton of HP but isn't actually that strong) and end the map.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Silly

[Cysx]

29 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Battalion health is certainly a concern earlier on in the game, but higher level Battalions generally have higher HP pools as well. I know that Fraldarius Soldiers has something like 105, and the KOL Corps has 120 at base (not sure if it levels up at all atm). I don't know exactly how much damage a Battalion takes relative to the unit it's equipped to, but if the Battalion is relatively close to the highest point where Wrath + Vantage comes online, 35/40 Battalion Endurance is not that bad. Also, this is a bit niche, but I think every unit gets Defensive Tactics which halves battalion damage. If you consider that Dimitri should only really have Battalion Wrath, Battalion Vantage, and Lance Prowess as his required skills here from going Cavalier -> Paladin -> potentially Great Lord, he should have enough space to equip that before Lance Crit +10.

I see a two-fold use here. It slows down the rate that his Battalion takes damage, so it's less likely that the Battalion will have dangerously low Endurance before Wrath + Vantage is active. Once you're there, his Battalion will also survive for longer in the event he doesn't pull off a crit with his 80+ chance. Couple this with solid physical bulk and his Avoid personal, and I think the chances are that his Battalion will survive for quite a few hits even if the crit roll doesn't favor him.

I actually didn't need use any dance Battalions, so I can't say how useful it would have been. Didn't find the need since Dimitri's carrying occurs mostly on Enemy Phase.  

I THINK battalions take 1/2 your damage. But that's largely a guess, I haven't researched that specifically. The issue being, while later Battalions are indeed safe at full health, <1/3 of 105 is <35, so slightly above 30... probably less. If I'm correct you may be safe from a single hit, but then again, you might not. But you're right that Defensive Tactics could round out the build decently well, at the moment I don't really see anything you'd need more.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Cysx

[LegendOfLoog]

8 minutes ago, Cysx said:

I THINK battalions take 1/2 your damage. But I could be wrong. The issue being, while later Battalions are indeed safe at full health, <1/3 of 105 is <35, so slightly above 30... probably less. If I'm correct you may be safe from a single hit, but then again, you might not. But you're right that Battalion Endurance could round out the build decently well, at the moment I don't really see anything you'd need more.

Just checked myself. I took 9 Damage from an Enemy and lost 4 Battalion HP, so it looks like it is 1/2. In that case, Dimitri would need to take 140 total damage with Defensive Tactics on him before losing his Battalion if it's at 35 Endurance. It appears that damage outside of battle like Poison Strike and probably Devil weapons don't apply to it either, although that's fairly minor. I guess the last skill slot could just be filler until Lance Crit +10 is available. 

[Cysx]

7 minutes ago, LegendOfLoog said:

Just checked myself. I took 9 Damage from an Enemy and lost 4 Battalion HP, so it looks like it is 1/2. In that case, Dimitri would need to take 140 total damage with Defensive Tactics on him before losing his Battalion if it's at 35 Endurance. It appears that damage outside of battle like Poison Strike and probably Devil weapons don't apply to it either, although that's fairly minor. I guess the last skill slot could just be filler until Lance Crit +10 is available. 

Then yeah, sounds like that works.

[DefyingFates]

This stuff is still relevant so I hope I'm not accused of necroposting...

Anyway, Chaz Aria LLC uploaded a video about Class abilities worth getting. Since this tier list has those, I figured it was worth sharing (final tier list in the spoiler tag):

Spoiler

[Jayvee94]

On 10/5/2019 at 12:03 AM, DefyingFates said:

This stuff is still relevant so I hope I'm not accused of necroposting...

Anyway, Chaz Aria LLC uploaded a video about Class abilities worth getting. Since this tier list has those, I figured it was worth sharing (final tier list in the spoiler tag):

  Hide contents

Thank you! Should I use these tiers for combat arts?

[DefyingFates]

8 hours ago, Jayvee94 said:

Thank you! Should I use these tiers for combat arts?

The tier names? Nah, I think we should have something simpler for our lists 😛 Also, thanks; you're welcome!!

[Shadow Mir]

On 10/5/2019 at 9:51 PM, Jayvee94 said:

Thank you! Should I use these tiers for combat arts?

Personally, I'd much rather use letter grades for tiers. Those are much simpler.