Pokémon Sword and Shield Spoiler Discussion

[NegativeExponents-]

6 minutes ago, Emerson said:

I'm not talking about time, nor skill. I'm talking about space. And in absolutely no way are these models cheap or sloppily made, there's a reason they stopped making 100-150 new Pokemon after Gen 5, they take quite a lot of resources to make, as well as make sure they work in the new/altered engine, and with every new feature that uses them. Sprites may also take plenty of hard work, but by no means are they any easier or harder to do than a 3d model, especially ones of such quality as the Pokemon ones, but they ARE significantly smaller. Ignoring the animations, which yes they are bland (which is a whole other topic), the models aren't just something you throw together in a few minutes.
And a reminder that, allegedly, Sword and Shield had issues with the old models. Meaning apparently they remade them all. Now don't get me wrong, thats a terrible way for them to do things. But they did do that, apparently.
The models were also MADE to be used for a long period of time. There's a reason they lagged the 3ds, beyond some other GF bad programming. They're pretty high poly count for what they needed to be and have a pretty large file size because of it.

also HAH there it is! Dynamax isn't just blowing up the model. You can't. It'd look absolutely awful, even for how high poly count models like these. They had to make new models most likely. Even at up to 12,000+ tris, I can't imagine they'd work blown up. I don't have personal experience with such a thing, but it's not hard to visualize. That said if they did I'd be rather impressed that a model like that could run on a 3ds alongside up to 3 other ones of the same size plus an environment and other models.

Next, the environments really aren't that bad, at all. Firstly, the wild area is a big open area because it's... a big open area. It is the size of like 1-2 regions in BotW, apparently. And that all has to get loaded. We also have seen like... 1 part of it in any proper demo. Which is the starting area.
Secondly... yeah the trees are kinda awful honestly. It's an awful model but it's like, the 1 exception so far. Everything else ranges from acceptable to pretty good. Texture work isn't even *that* bad. It's better than Three House's in any case lmao god some of that game's textures can be awful.
The bad stuff's also in the 1 big wide open area, meanwhile the towns and other locations look great.

But I actually do agree their water needs hella work, especially in that last image we got? Looks pretty great, but the water is really bad right up against the rocks.

Now, what personally surprises me is that Sword and Shield is 10 gigabytes. Only 10? They could've done more, so I'm not sure what made them stop honestly, BotW is 13GB. THAT'S the oddity to me personally. Is... GF really that bad at programming..? Or are the limits of the game made during development, and not what's put on the cartridge..?

Colors on the models are washed out and pokemon have lost expressiveness. All the birds just kinda float and slowly flap their wings and some pokemon lost key design traits like Typhlosion's fire that erupts from his body. The animations for everything is just crap. Maybe the models aren't cheap but they certainly aren't being used to their full potential.

That whole trouble importing them is either a lie or shows how incompetent they are if they decided to animate everything exactly the way it was before instead of improving them since that would take even longer to do. That applies to dynamax too. If you're gonna create an entire new model just to make a pokemon big why not change up the animations a bit? Why have it be the exact thing but slowed down?

Maybe not all environments are bad as seen by that new screenshot but that would just mean they are certainly inconsistent which doesn't make it a whole lot better.

10 gigs sounds like problems with compression honestly which I'm just gonna have to chalk up as GF having bad programmers

[Emerson]

13 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Colors on the models are washed out and pokemon have lost expressiveness. All the birds just kinda float and slowly flap their wings and some pokemon lost key design traits like Typhlosion's fire that erupts from his body. The animations for everything is just crap. Maybe the models aren't cheap but they certainly aren't being used to their full potential.

That whole trouble importing them is either a lie or shows how incompetent they are if they decided to animate everything exactly the way it was before instead of improving them since that would take even longer to do. That applies to dynamax too. If you're gonna create an entire new model just to make a pokemon big why not change up the animations a bit? Why have it be the exact thing but slowed down?

Maybe not all environments are bad as seen by that new screenshot but that would just mean they are certainly inconsistent which doesn't make it a whole lot better.

10 gigs sounds like problems with compression honestly which I'm just gonna have to chalk up as GF having bad programmers

I really, REALLY don't want to have this conversation right now, but

tl;dr on it, they have 800+ Pokemon to animate. It may be down to 400 at a time now, but considering also have to MAKE AN ACTUAL GAME at the same time, with their tiny ass team, in a short time frame dictated by TPC. It's not reasonable to give everything new animations. Also consider how widely used they are and how they usually do apply to all the situations they're used in, no matter the move or mode. This is why they have to be a bit generic and unfortunately boring, because there's too damn many to give every single one high quality animation and expressive idles.

Don't get me wrong I'd die to have cool ass animations for everything, but I also understand that they have other things to work on, and that's simply not a priority when they've been using this formula for like 20+ years and it has yet to truly fail. I think they could've made the initial animations better, but considering this was their first time working on them, AND they had to make every single one of them for XY, it's understandable why the majority are fairly dull.

And before someone brings up the previous console games...
Stadium, Stadium 2 and Battle Revolution barely have anything besides those animations. The majority of the development time, I'd assume, was put into those. They didn't have any actual GAME to make around it. Battle Revolutions models don't look great by today's standard either.
Colosseum and XD are the reverse, while Colosseum did have to make Gen 3 models, it also ONLY had to make Gen 3 models, plus the scope of it's world is pretty small, frankly. XD has it even smaller in that regard, since it has all the animations, it just made the world.

And, um, regarding the 10 GB thing... I was saying it's oddly SMALL. Like I said, BotW is even higher. They likely could've fit more Pokemon in, unless there's some behind the scenes limitation we don't know about, which is pretty likely tbh, but we won't know.

 

ANYWAYS
Regional Yamask evolution

Edited November 4, 2019 by Emerson

[NegativeExponents-]

20 minutes ago, Emerson said:

Hey, we have the full (mostly) dex now.

https://pastebin.com/dmN88QXE

No Zorua, unfortunately, but after USUM I was already pretty blessed for using it lmao.

I'm quite saddened with how little gen 2 pokemon there are and especially the choices that got in. Hoothoot, Octilerry, Delibird?! Hopefully that means they'll get some great buffs since I would like to see a useable Delibird. Gen 4 isn't doing too hot either but at least I like the choices better.

Yanmask first regional form didn't appeal but that new evolution has me sold on it.

 

7 minutes ago, Emerson said:

And, um, regarding the 10 GB thing... I was saying it's oddly SMALL. Like I said, BotW is even higher. They likely could've fit more Pokemon in, unless there's some behind the scenes limitation we don't know about, which is pretty likely tbh, but we won't know.

I'm also not looking forward to continue right now but I'll address this part quickly. I disagree with 10 gb being small. I think it's oddly big for game that cut so much corners.

[Emerson]

Just now, NegativeExponents- said:

I'm also not looking forward to continue right now but I'll address this part quickly. I disagree with 10 gb being small. I think it's oddly big for game that cut so much corners.

In what way did it cut corners? The cut dex..? That's the whole reason that it's 10 GB and not 20+. The visuals..? I mean if you think they look shitty... I suppose? The region size..? We don't really know that yet but the Wild Area's pretty large, and there's plenty of locations we haven't seen.

Considering we have Switch games up in the 20-30 GBs, Pokemon could've been higher. Really. I **have** to assume there's some limitation internally with the team. Maybe TPC wanted to keep them around 10 GB to make digital downloads less painful?

[NegativeExponents-]

3 minutes ago, Emerson said:

In what way did it cut corners? The cut dex..? That's the whole reason that it's 10 GB and not 20+. The visuals..? I mean if you think they look shitty... I suppose? The region size..? We don't really know that yet but the Wild Area's pretty large, and there's plenty of locations we haven't seen.

Considering we have Switch games up in the 20-30 GBs, Pokemon could've been higher. Really. I **have** to assume there's some limitation internally with the team. Maybe TPC wanted to keep them around 10 GB to make digital downloads less painful?

If pokemon took up that much space then sun and moon should be the ones at 20+ gb instead of being the 3gb size that they are. The wild areas don't look that big but I suppose that has yet to be seen. Maybe there will be multiple big wild areas that take up lots of space but I doubt especially with how they are supposed to be confined to only certain areas.

I can't really comment on them needing to be bigger honestly. Bigger size doesn't really mean much unless they are using that space for meaningful additions and even then I would still prefer it to be optimized to a smaller size to stop it from taking up so much memory space.

[Emerson]

8 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

If pokemon took up that much space then sun and moon should be the ones at 20+ gb instead of being the 3gb size that they are.

It's environments are way smaller and likely lower poly overall given the 3ds screensize, and it not being uses for other purposes later like the Pokemon models, and it also doesn't have a Dynamax form for everything to have to store. Although I do question where some of the the 10 GB does go tbh. Can't say some of it's not just GF having bad compression tbh.

The wild areas don't look that big but I suppose that has yet to be seen.

 

Again, we've literally seen 1 tiny area in action. The very, VERY beginning area outside of trailer snip-its. Like every time they show it off, it's the same general starting area.

 

I can't really comment on them needing to be bigger honestly. Bigger size doesn't really mean much unless they are using that space for meaningful additions and even then I would still prefer it to be optimized to a smaller size to stop it from taking up so much memory space.

uh bigger size would mean
all the pokemon
which people really seem to value

 

[NegativeExponents-]

With their backwards way of thinking I'm pretty sure bigger size would be used to add more curry than add back cut pokemon.

We've actually seen a few wild areas in trailers but never in full detail (besides the starting area). If they want to people to think the wild areas, even the beginning one, are big then maybe they should've showed it off some more and explored different parts instead of sticking to just one general area every time.

Edited November 4, 2019 by NegativeExponents-

[Dai]

Spoiler

More Yamask.

I am looking forward to the game being data mined and the models compared. If they’re completely identical, then GameFreak are fools.

[Emerson]

10 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

If they want to people to think the wild areas, even the beginning one, are big then maybe they should've showed it off some more and explored different parts instead of sticking to just one general area every time.

I agree. Their marketing for Sword and Shield hasn't been that great... when considering the situation around it and all the controversy. If you look at the marketing for Gen 7 and how it was generally received, it makes sense. Gen 7 showed a LOT pre-launch, frankly too much. Gen 8 decided to give the players much more of a surprise when they played. Good marketing for a game about discovering monsters and collecting them! Issue is with all the other issues, they really NEEDED to show off more stuff to get players interested now. It's likely why so many people are jumping at the leaks now. They did a good, but because of the other bad they did, it made the good a bad. If that makes sense.

Their general vagueness with the cut dex is stupid too, apparently Japan never even GOT a formal announcement about it either, so it's not just English-speaking communities that're in outrage over it fyi. I pray they hear people.

[Thane]

1 hour ago, Emerson said:

ANYWAYS
Regional Yamask evolution

Please be Ghost/Rock, please be Ghost/Rock...

[Emerson]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Please be Ghost/Rock, please be Ghost/Rock...

It is Ghost/Ground. (thought it was rock and said it was originally, my bad)

 

Here's everything new so far by the way. With visuals.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Emerson

[Thane]

Just now, Emerson said:

It is Ghost/Rock.

Yes! Finally. Ice/Bug and Ghost/Rock are two things I've waited for for a long time. Now let's hope for Bug/Dark and Bug/Dragon next.

It's kind of bizarre how long time it has taken for some type combinations. And we still have so many Bug/Flying. I know, many of them fly, but so does Beedrill and it's not Flying.

[Emerson]

1 minute ago, Thane said:

Yes! Finally. Ice/Bug and Ghost/Rock are two things I've waited for for a long time. Now let's hope for Bug/Dark and Bug/Dragon next.

It's kind of bizarre how long time it has taken for some type combinations. And we still have so many Bug/Flying. I know, many of them fly, but so does Beedrill and it's not Flying.

I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. I misread something before. It's Ghost/Ground.

[Thane]

1 minute ago, Emerson said:

I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. I misread something before. It's Ghost/Ground.

Spoiler

I forgive you because you like Ophelia.

[NegativeExponents-]

28 minutes ago, Dai said:

  Hide contents

More Yamask.

I am looking forward to the game being data mined and the models compared. If they’re completely identical, then GameFreak are fools.

Datamine is something I'm eagerly awaiting for. I wasn't even thinking about the comparisons though. I just want to know stats and move sets.

26 minutes ago, Emerson said:

Their general vagueness with the cut dex is stupid too, apparently Japan never even GOT a formal announcement about it either, so it's not just English-speaking communities that're in outrage over it fyi. I pray they hear people.

I think some Japanese fans knew but it never really blew up over there. Probably because, like you said, they didn't make any official announcements. I guess they saw how the west reacted and tried keeping it under wraps. Edit: oh wait I misread this. Japan is in an outrage over this too? Oh, now I need to see what it is they have to say about this.

Edit2: Well I tried searching on japanese twitter a bit and couldn't really find anything. Maybe everyone is just too absorbed in leaks right now or I'm just not searching the right stuff but at least I found this gem

21 minutes ago, Emerson said:

I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. I misread something before. It's Ghost/Ground.

RIP Thane's hopes and dreams. Well at least you still have bug/ice

Edited November 4, 2019 by NegativeExponents-

[Emerson]

18 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Edit: oh wait I misread this. Japan is in an outrage over this too? Oh, now I need to see what it is they have to say about this.

I've only heard secondhand but yeah they're in a similar state to our fanbase right now but a little more perturbed.

[Anacybele]

I'm confused about Zacian and Zamazenta now. They're not the same type? Why? They totally look the same type to me. And neither of them look like Fairy types. I like the Fairy type, it's my second favorite after Fire, but I would've never considered making either of these two Fairy type.

All in all so far, these new Pokemon are pretty hit and miss for me. I really like a bunch of them, and then the other bunch are just freaking weird. xP

My biggest gripe though? WE STILL DON'T HAVE A GOD DAMN FIRE/FAIRY. WHEN, GF?! 😞

[Espurrhoodie]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I'm confused about Zacian and Zamazenta now. They're not the same type? Why? They totally look the same type to me. And neither of them look like Fairy types. I like the Fairy type, it's my second favorite after Fire, but I would've never considered making either of these two Fairy type.

All in all so far, these new Pokemon are pretty hit and miss for me. I really like a bunch of them, and then the other bunch are just freaking weird. xP

My biggest gripe though? WE STILL DON'T HAVE A GOD DAMN FIRE/FAIRY. WHEN, GF?! 😞

What type are they?

[Flere210]

For the sword's one make perfect sense because most of the arthurian legendary swords like Excalibur and Arondight are made by fairies.

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, Espurrhoodie said:

What type are they?

The chart is right up there on this page... It says Fairy or Fairy/Steel for Zacian and Fighting or Fighting/Steel for Zamazenta. Apparently they each have a second form where they're without their gear.

2 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

For the sword's one make perfect sense because most of the arthurian legendary swords like Excalibur and Arondight are made by fairies.

Okay, but then explain Zacian still keeping the Fairy typing without its sword...

Edited November 4, 2019 by Anacybele

[Dai]

26 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

The chart is right up there on this page... It says Fairy or Fairy/Steel for Zacian and Fighting or Fighting/Steel for Zamazenta. Apparently they each have a second form where they're without their gear.

Okay, but then explain Zacian still keeping the Fairy typing without its sword...

The sword equates to the steel typing, so the dog itself is a fairy. I think the main thing is, outside of dragons, they mostly want some of the more folkloric entities in Pokemon to be fairy type. If memory serves, a lot of creatures that were considered fae were not always stuff like actual fairies (a-la Tinkerbell).

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, Dai said:

The sword equates to the steel typing, so the dog itself is a fairy. I think the main thing is, outside of dragons, they mostly want some of the more folkloric entities in Pokemon to be fairy type. If memory serves, a lot of creatures that were considered fae were not always stuff like actual fairies (a-la Tinkerbell).

Well yeah, I know not everything considered that are actual fairies. I mean, I'd been asking for a Fairy type unicorn which I got in Galarian Rapidash, so... It's just I would've never expected a sword-wielding armored wolf to be Fairy type.

Pretty sure Zacian and Zamazenta are wolves, btw, not dogs.

[Thane]

So what typing do you think Eternatus is? Kind of hard to classify that thing. Dark/Psychic? Or is it another Dragon?

[Dai]

Just now, Thane said:

So what typing do you think Eternatus is? Kind of hard to classify that thing. Dark/Psychic? Or is it another Dragon?

It's apparently Poison/Dragon.
 

Just now, Anacybele said:

Well yeah, I know not everything considered that are actual fairies. I mean, I'd been asking for a Fairy type unicorn which I got in Galarian Rapidash, so... It's just I would've never expected a sword-wielding armored wolf to be Fairy type.

Pretty sure Zacian and Zamazenta are wolves, btw, not dogs.

They're good bois, regardless.

[Thane]

Just now, Dai said:

It's apparently Poison/Dragon.

That's cool. Dragon is the standard Legendary typing even if they don't look it, but I didn't expect the Poison typing. Thanks!