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Good post!

I agree in particular that Claude often gets a bit of a pass by players (and to be fair, the writers let him get this pass) - he's not some goody-two-shoes nice person and there's a very high chance his plans would have involved armed conflict at some point. Since the conflict starts without him, he adjusts his plans to take advantage of the conflict.

I also think that Fodlan was a powder-keg in general. You can't look at the situation in Faerghus as anything remotely sustainable: recent years have seen multiple uprisings and a genocide, and the nation appears to be outright plagued by banditry and disorder. The best-case scenario was Faerghus imploding in a bloody civil war, the worst-case is that the Knights of Seiros and the other nations get dragged in too.

One thing I really enjoyed about 3H is that, in many other FEs, the situation is often painted as idyllic, while in 3H, we see a society that made me stop and think "No, this is wrong". Which set the stage nicely for the three lords and their different visions of how to make things right.

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Claude would definitely leverage military strength to achieve his goals, but he's in a much more precarious position of power than Edelgard is. The Sword of the Creator is a useful tool to use when he has to fight, but... can't see him getting a whole lot of support from the Alliance itself if then outright declares war on the Church like Edelgard does. He has to be much more careful in his dance, as a foreigner who was abruptly made House Riegan's heir so they can maintain their hold on power after a period of mismanagement.

I see him as a much more covert assassination guy, and if he does that well enough, he may not even have to use military force to decentralize everything. Like, subjugation as a solution is on his list... but I think it'd be at the bottom.

EDIT: Though I don't think he'd... actually succeed in that assassination attempt and might be in for an unpleasant surprise for obvious reasons.

Edited by Crysta

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The only war that is inevitable is that one directed against the TWSITD. Other wars ofc may happen but also may not.

For your points regarding the other lords:

- Dimitri:

I dont think he is actually that stupid some people think he is. He knows that faerghus has no chance against the empire. So I dont think that he will declare war against them even if he knows of Arundels involvement in it. He certainly would do it if he had enough support (like from the knights of seiros or the alliance), but it is highly questionable that he will get that for an event that no one outside the kingdom cares for.

Ofc Assassination is a possibility (and a declaration of war when failed) but so is exposing the truth. If he somehow manages to connect Arundel to lets say the experiments on Remire village (Which are still imperial citizens after all) and other shady stuff TWSITD do he might get rid of Arundel without conflict. (Thales would probably just take a new host/look, but if he gets wind of that then the inevitable war against TWSITD follows).

 

- Claude:

Unfortunately I didnt play Verdant Wind but I always saw him as the shemer guy who probably would use violence to achieve his goals but not as a first choice. Also he is not stupid. You cant get rid of centuries of prejudges instantly. So I think the way he will try to achieve his dream of almyran/fodlan relations is nice and slowly through setting the right people in the right places.

 

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For Edelgard, we're kinda assuming that she has to become Emperor. Aside from her personal feelings, is there anything stopping her from grabbing Aymr, defecting to the Alliance/Kingdom, and letting Claude/Dimitri know about the slitherers? Feels like Fodlan could have been unified over a DnD session with Byleth and the lords, if only for the fact that everyone has twisted feelings and nobody has the full picture.

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2 hours ago, Nihilem said:

 

I dont think he is actually that stupid some people think he is. He knows that faerghus has no chance against the empire. So I dont think that he will declare war against them even if he knows of Arundels involvement in it. He certainly would do it if he had enough support (like from the knights of seiros or the alliance), but it is highly questionable that he will get that for an event that no one outside the kingdom cares for.

 

Euuuuuh, his reaction to the Flame Emperor in AM, and his behavior in VW and AM before Rodrigue's death kinda sorta tells me than yes, he is totally going to do that sort of mad dash for 'justice', and to the eternal flames for everything not helping him get that revenge.

 

2 hours ago, msterforks said:

For Edelgard, we're kinda assuming that she has to become Emperor. Aside from her personal feelings, is there anything stopping her from grabbing Aymr, defecting to the Alliance/Kingdom, and letting Claude/Dimitri know about the slitherers? Feels like Fodlan could have been unified over a DnD session with Byleth and the lords, if only for the fact that everyone has twisted feelings and nobody has the full picture.

 

1) Amyr doesn't exist yet. Mole People created it for that war, likely after Garreg Mach since Edelgard only got it after that.

2) You assume the Mole People is letting their precious Nemesis 2.0 get away like that. The way MoniKronya was glued to her pretty much screams 'handler' to me, and before her, ThomaSolon was creeping around. Kinda doubt it was ever gonna be that easy, even once that little bitch and the human-sized the Brain were shanked. And before Garreg Mach, I guess she was watched over quite closely precisely to avoid that sort of move.

3) It would also mean ditching her personal goals of reforming the shit out of Fodlan's rotten structure, since it would mean The Church would remain the central moral authority, and it is probably not taking kindly to reforms which take an axe to the social order they support after the deed is done, and an Empire already gutted by a war won't be able to resist pressures to ditch these reforms.

4) Also, timing. Before Remire and the chapel, she can't exactly prove that Mole People thing. Rhea had to get the truth pulled out like a rotten teeth by Claude in VW, and by Seteth in SS actually, despite the fact other people already knowing part of the truth were telling her 'time to fix it all for good about the secrecy and the lies' after the humble pie of the emprisonment for five years. And it still took Shambhalla razed to get her to fess up for good. She is so not telling anything now. After? Look at Dimitri's reaction, and tell me it is good idea of doing that after the Mole People have burnt all bridges needed to jump ship.

5) Dialogue was tried, and no trust was reached between Edelgard and Claude in VW, chapter 4/5. Why would it succeed and trust be reached for something twith even higer stakes? And Dimitri explicitely tells in his Goddess Tower event that he is uniterested in renewing dialogue with Edelgard.

6) That would also mean leave the entire country in the Mole People's hands. Who would wish that to their own country?

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15 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I also think that Fodlan was a powder-keg in general. You can't look at the situation in Faerghus as anything remotely sustainable: recent years have seen multiple uprisings and a genocide, and the nation appears to be outright plagued by banditry and disorder. The best-case scenario was Faerghus imploding in a bloody civil war, the worst-case is that the Knights of Seiros and the other nations get dragged in too.

Exactly. Faerghus was incredibly volatile and toxic. There was a lot of widespread issues across the entire continent that needed someone to actually do something. The biggest issue is that overall, Rhea and the widespread number of corrupt nobles needed to be dealt with. 

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On 11/22/2019 at 12:16 PM, omegaxis1 said:

The primary thing is that people that condemn Edelgard as a villain or an antagonist and see her nothing beyond that, they tend to see her as someone that is unjustifiable, or just hate the fact that she started the war in 3H and think that it was totally unnecessary. 

This is completely false

I disagree. No matter what, if you are going to start a continental war to try to push your views onto others, you will always be seen as a villain, and from what we see of Edelgard, she truly believes Fodlan should be united again. I highly doubt that DImitri would have started a war since he was actually honing onto Arundel before he realized that the Flame Emperor was Edelgard. If he just killed him, Edelgard likely wouldn't take much offense to that since she knows that he is the leader of TWSitD. And I doubt that Claude would truly start a continental war just for better relations with another continent.

Now, if you say that TWSitD would start a war no matter what, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Suggesting that Dimitri or Claude would start it is pretty eh though.

Edited by MrPerson0

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2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

I disagree. No matter what, if you are going to start a continental war to try to push your views onto others, you will always be seen as a villain, and from what we see of Edelgard, she truly believes Fodlan should be united again. I highly doubt that DImitri would have started a war since he was actually honing onto Arundel before he realized that the Flame Emperor was Edelgard. If he just killed him, I doubt Edelgard would take much offense to that since she knows that he is the leader of TWSitD. And I doubt that Claude would truly start a continental war just for better relations with another continent.

Now, if you say that TWSitD would start a war no matter what, I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Suggesting that Dimitri or Claude would start it is pretty eh though.

Several issues with this.

First off, she didn't start a continental wide war so much as she declared war strictly on the Church of Seiros. This is true in any route. If any nation ends up taking a stance in the war, they are making a stance that invites conflict to their nation no matter what. Example being in how in Crimson Flower, the Empire never once touched the Alliance during the five years since the war began, stated by both an NPC and Hubert. During the other routes, Cornelia basically forced Faerghus into the war thanks to her coup and forming the Dukedom, which basically made Edelgard lose a lot of control over the war, hence why it's mentioned that Edelgard attempted to strengthen her reign.

Second, you seemed to have ignored the majority of my post. Arundel is not only the regent of the Empire, but Edelgard's family holds no political power any longer, thanks to the Insurrection of the Seven. If Dimitri so much as attacks Arundel, doesn't even have to kill, what Edelgard wants or not does not matter. The war would be decided then and there, before Dimitri, the crown prince of Faerghus, tried to assassinate Arundel. 

Claude starting a war would never be his intent. But his desire to force the borders open while expressing desire to unite all of Fodlan himself would have landed a war no matter what. Hence why he wanted the Sword of the Creator on his side, as that is basically the ultimate weapon that would force others to comply. 

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Just now, omegaxis1 said:

First off, she didn't start a continental wide war so much as she declared war strictly on the Church of Seiros.

Her war statement literally had her suggesting that the Church split the Empire up. This, along with the fact that many nobles wanted to see all of Fodlan back under their power, makes it obvious that she started the war to take over the other countries.

2 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Example being in how in Crimson Flower, the Empire never once touched the Alliance during the five years since the war began, stated by both an NPC and Hubert.

Yes, until the moment Byleth comes back, which is an opportune time for them to start invading the Alliance.

As for Arundel's power, this all ties back to TWSitD, who would be the ones starting the war. As I said, no one disagrees that a war would start because of them. This is what they always wanted.

6 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

But his desire to force the borders open while expressing desire to unite all of Fodlan himself would have landed a war no matter what.

Seeing that Dimitri shared a similar view where he wanted everyone to be equal, we do not know if this is truly the case. The facts we have are both Edelgard and TWSitD wanting to start a war no matter what.

 

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On 11/23/2019 at 9:07 AM, omegaxis1 said:

First off, thanks for pointing out the typo thing.

Now, to your main two points. 

1) If a villain is defined by who started the war, there's a LOT of villains that are depicted as heroes then. Hell, going to the Tellius series, Ike and the Laguz Alliance are the ones that overall started the war that nearly caused all life to be erased. So would that not make them be the villains? They could have ignored the Begnion Senate having committed the Serenes Massacre, which would be downright horrible, but they went into the war KNOWING that the war may very well spell the end of all life, and still went and did it, so by your logic, Ike and the Laguz are the villains, not the Begnion Senate.

2) The point of the matter is that whether Edelgard wanted the war herself or not, it would have happened. So if it was going to happen either way, Edelgard would take advantage of it and fulfill her ambitions from it. Simply put, the war was going to happen. No literally way of avoiding it. 

"The war", not just any war. Edelgard initiated an unprovoked war of conquest. That's not the same as the Laguz Alliance seeking revenge for the destruction of Serenes Forest. It's much closer to the destruction of Serenes Forest in the first place.

If Edelgard didn't want the war, people wouldn't see her as a villain.

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1 minute ago, MrPerson0 said:

Her war statement literally had her suggesting that the Church split the Empire up. This, along with the fact that many nobles wanted to see all of Fodlan back under their power, makes it obvious that she started the war to take over the other countries.

Irregardless, it does not mean that she declared war officially on either the Kingdom or the Alliance. The reason the other nations end up becoming involved is cause the Church of Seiros holds a lot of political influence over the other nations. And you honestly cannot expect that either the Kingdom or the Alliance were actually going sit and do nothing when the Empire goes to war against the Church, did you? 

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, until the moment Byleth comes back, which is an opportune time for them to start invading the Alliance.

Except the thing is that Edelgard wasn't moving to invade the Alliance. She even specifically states that the Empire does not need to occupy the Alliance territory. Simply prevent Claude from keeping the other noble houses that wished to join the Empire. Not only that, but Edelgard already expected that Claude was planning something, proven further when they learned that Claude had shut down Derdriu, making it clear that Claude was preparing to attack. 

5 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

As for Arundel's power, this all ties back to TWSitD, who would be the ones starting the war. As I said, no one disagrees that a war would start because of them. This is what they always wanted.

 

The slithers and the other corrupt nobles that helped the slithers experiment on Edelgard and her siblings to create the "peerless emperor". 

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Seeing that Dimitri shared a similar view where he wanted everyone to be equal, we do not know if this is truly the case. The facts we have are both Edelgard and TWSitD wanting to start a war no matter what.

This is overall false. Dimitri might have spoken of his own personal views, but he for one never once expected to even live that long. He even stated it him. He came to Garreg Mach for the purpose of revenge. Even his own ideals is not even about equality. Dimitri is someone that does believe in the crests and nobility, never actually considering getting rid of them and believing that it exists for a good reason.

2 minutes ago, Seafarer said:

"The war", not just any war. Edelgard initiated an unprovoked war of conquest. That's not the same as the Laguz Alliance seeking revenge for the destruction of Serenes Forest. It's much closer to the destruction of Serenes Forest in the first place.

If Edelgard didn't want the war, people wouldn't see her as a villain.

Um, no. Not at all. First off, as I literally pointed out, there was going to be a war no matter what. Even if Edelgard didn't want to, she would have been used to start one. She simply chose to accept that the war was going to happen and made use of it for her own ambition. 

Not to mention, the entire continent was messed up with the multitude of corrupt nobles, the obsession with Crests across the realm, and xenophobic culture, the blind worship of a false Goddess, and Rhea being an incompetent leader that overall caused the land to decay as it does. 

The Laguz Alliance went to war for the sake of revenge or wanting justice, but that does not mean that they had no choice in the matter. They 100% knew and were warned that this would aggravate Lehran's Medallion, but still they chose to go along with it. And the result became that nearly all life was wiped out as a result. They could have chosen to let the Serenes Massacre go. Let bygones be bygones. No war, no unnecessary bloodshed, etc. Would it be horrible to ignore a genocide? Absolutely. But would it prevent literal omnicide? Yes. 

But they wanted justice, and they would go to war for it. Which was noble.

It's a noble cause, but it ultimately does not change that they nearly got literally everyone killed. 

It ended up being a case of literal plot convenience that everything managed to work out. You know, that Ashera didn't kill everyone, but simply petrified them. Imagine if it was actually killing them. Then suddenly the war was absolutely not worth it.

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1 hour ago, omegaxis1 said:
18 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

 

Exactly. Faerghus was incredibly volatile and toxic. There was a lot of widespread issues across the entire continent that needed someone to actually do something. The biggest issue is that overall, Rhea and the widespread number of corrupt nobles needed to be dealt with. 

 

And when you think about it... Leicester isn't in that much of a better shape, even sans Almyran raids. Current heir Claude is a complete unknown appearing after an 'accidental' death of his uncle. Not the nice stable situation. And the Paralogues happenning here show that:

Lorenz's? Petty warfare which looks like something of a constant, with treaties signed and broken one after another. What a peaceful situation.

Raphael and Ignatz's? Welp, looks like it was what Daddy Gloucester's troops were busy doing while Acheron attacked. Banditism, for the most petty and stupid pretext (of ducking courses merchant caravans will go to the trade port, you moron).

Alois and Shamir's? The Alliance capital and seat of power of House Riegan, Derdriu, is under attack by pirates, and is unable to mobilize troops to defend itself, or have allies from within the Alliance to do so. For its capital, its big city, reserve of manpower, and big moneymaker. Even when the raiders pretend to be more Almyran invaders. Look at history and ask CK2 players. When you can't defend your own capital, against bandits to boot... Your kingdom is pretty much up for grabs.

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5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Irregardless, it does not mean that she declared war officially on either the Kingdom or the Alliance.

Yes, it does. Her outright suggesting that the Church split up the Empire suggests that she wants to reunite it again, and that's what she gets in the end.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

The slithers and the other corrupt nobles that helped the slithers experiment on Edelgard and her siblings to create the "peerless emperor". 

Yes. Once again, no one will disagree that TWSitD wanted war no matter what. Suggesting that Dimitri and Claude wanted it is very unlikely though.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

Simply prevent Claude from keeping the other noble houses that wished to join the Empire.

This is still invading the Alliance, who was remaining neutral in this conflict. Assuming Claude was going to attack is not enough of a reason to make you seem to be in the right for invading another country.

5 hours ago, omegaxis1 said:

This is overall false.

No, it isn't. After the Miklan chapter, Dimitri outright says that he believes everyone (crest wielders and non-crest wielders) should acknowledge each others' strengths and learn to respect each other based on personal merits (basically what Edelgard wanted), extending to lineage, race, faith, and ideologies (what Claude wanted), and that people should be able to accept one another with mutual concessions.

Edited by MrPerson0

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4 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

And when you think about it... Leicester isn't in that much of a better shape, even sans Almyran raids. Current heir Claude is a complete unknown appearing after an 'accidental' death of his uncle. Not the nice stable situation. And the Paralogues happenning here show that:

Lorenz's? Petty warfare which looks like something of a constant, with treaties signed and broken one after another. What a peaceful situation.

Raphael and Ignatz's? Welp, looks like it was what Daddy Gloucester's troops were busy doing while Acheron attacked. Banditism, for the most petty and stupid pretext (of ducking courses merchant caravans will go to the trade port, you moron).

Alois and Shamir's? The Alliance capital and seat of power of House Riegan, Derdriu, is under attack by pirates, and is unable to mobilize troops to defend itself, or have allies from within the Alliance to do so. For its capital, its big city, reserve of manpower, and big moneymaker. Even when the raiders pretend to be more Almyran invaders. Look at history and ask CK2 players. When you can't defend your own capital, against bandits to boot... Your kingdom is pretty much up for grabs.

Or how House Ordelia tried and failed to help House Hrym when the latter tried to defect from the Empire, and thus suffered a lot from the Empire. It's what got Lysithea and many others to suffer the experiments by the slithers. And no other lord of the Alliance even tried to help someone that holds a seat on the roundtable. The Alliance was overall very unstable.

Just now, MrPerson0 said:

Yes, it does. Her outright suggesting that the Church split up the Empire suggests that she wants to reunite it again, and that's what she gets in the end.

 

Um, she only gets it because Claude literally giftwraps the Alliance for Edelgard at the end, even saying that he smoothed things out to make sure that the Alliance was going to be ceded to the Empire. He does the exact same thing in Azure Moon. And the Kingdom in CF joins the war of its own volition when Dimitri agrees to help the Church of Seiros. Regardless of what Edelgard said in the scene you are going on about, it does not change that officially, the Empire strictly declared war on the Church of Seiros. You cannot ignore how the official proclamation went. 

2 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Yes. Once again, no one will disagree that TWSitD wanted war no matter what. Suggesting that Dimitri and Claude wanted it is very unlikely though.

 

You're ignoring the fact that it isn't JUST the slithers. The other nobles of the Empire also want this war. 

3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And when you think about it... Leicester isn't in that much of a better shape, even sans Almyran raids. Current heir Claude is a complete unknown appearing after an 'accidental' death of his uncle. Not the nice stable situation. And the Paralogues happenning here show that:

Lorenz's? Petty warfare which looks like something of a constant, with treaties signed and broken one after another. What a peaceful situation.

Raphael and Ignatz's? Welp, looks like it was what Daddy Gloucester's troops were busy doing while Acheron attacked. Banditism, for the most petty and stupid pretext (of ducking courses merchant caravans will go to the trade port, you moron).

Alois and Shamir's? The Alliance capital and seat of power of House Riegan, Derdriu, is under attack by pirates, and is unable to mobilize troops to defend itself, or have allies from within the Alliance to do so. For its capital, its big city, reserve of manpower, and big moneymaker. Even when the raiders pretend to be more Almyran invaders. Look at history and ask CK2 players. When you can't defend your own capital, against bandits to boot... Your kingdom is pretty much up for grabs.

A feigned neutrality. Literally even stated in the narration. And once again, if she wanted to invade the Alliance overall, she would not specifically state that the Empire would not need to occupy the Alliance. The point of an actual invasion would mean that the Empire occupies it, but they don't.

Also, by your logic, if Edelgard didn't make her attack to stop Claude when he was by all accounts planning to attack, and therefore allowed Claude to get the drop on her, making the war get worse than it was already, that would be better? 

5 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

No, it isn't. After the Miklan chapter, Dimitri outright says that he believes everyone (crest wielders and non-crest wielders) should acknowledge each others' strengths and learn to respect each other based on personal merits (basically what Edelgard wanted), extending to lineage, race, face, and ideologies (what Claude wanted), and that people should be able to accept one another with mutual concessions.

Um... yeah. Might want to actually realize the overall context of the matter. It basically means that there should still be a case that Crests and nobility exists. Dimitri overall doesn't believe that the system is wrong, just needs some tweaking, but this overall continues to have a divide between commoners and nobility. 

Saying that they should acknowledge each other on their personal merit does not, in any way, actually allows social mobility. 

Edelgard is the one that actually abolishes nobility in the end. Only her. Dimitri, Claude, nor Byleth ever accomplishes these in the other routes. 

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22 minutes ago, Hardric62 said:

 

And when you think about it... Leicester isn't in that much of a better shape, even sans Almyran raids. Current heir Claude is a complete unknown appearing after an 'accidental' death of his uncle. Not the nice stable situation. And the Paralogues happenning here show that:

Lorenz's? Petty warfare which looks like something of a constant, with treaties signed and broken one after another. What a peaceful situation.

Raphael and Ignatz's? Welp, looks like it was what Daddy Gloucester's troops were busy doing while Acheron attacked. Banditism, for the most petty and stupid pretext (of ducking courses merchant caravans will go to the trade port, you moron).

Alois and Shamir's? The Alliance capital and seat of power of House Riegan, Derdriu, is under attack by pirates, and is unable to mobilize troops to defend itself, or have allies from within the Alliance to do so. For its capital, its big city, reserve of manpower, and big moneymaker. Even when the raiders pretend to be more Almyran invaders. Look at history and ask CK2 players. When you can't defend your own capital, against bandits to boot... Your kingdom is pretty much up for grabs.

Yeah, the Alliance was a house of cards waiting to collapse on itself. That's why it's so easy for the other lords to defect once they see a better offer in CF. A nation where one of the lords decides to feed merchants to monsters isn't exactly screaming stability. Not least of which that the sovereign duke has an agenda of his own that distinctly is not what any of his retainers or allies would care for, intentions or not. Claude basically has to trick Holst into meeting with Nader to begin with. The reason the Sword of the Creator is useful to Claude's plans is precisely because what they want or not no longer matters if the legends about it are true. 

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29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Um, she only gets it because Claude literally giftwraps the Alliance for Edelgard at the end, even saying that he smoothed things out to make sure that the Alliance was going to be ceded to the Empire. He does the exact same thing in Azure Moon. And the Kingdom in CF joins the war of its own volition when Dimitri agrees to help the Church of Seiros. Regardless of what Edelgard said in the scene you are going on about, it does not change that officially, the Empire strictly declared war on the Church of Seiros. You cannot ignore how the official proclamation went. 

That is simply due to Claude being prepared for both outcomes. Even if he does the same thing in AM, it's a completely different context, as he was literally saved from an invasion. In CF, he gives it to you due to you being the invader, whether or not you kill him off.

And you are ignoring that this whole time, she and the other nobles always wanted to bring the Empire back to its original power.

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

You're ignoring the fact that it isn't JUST the slithers. The other nobles of the Empire also want this war. 

If this is the case (I could be wrong, but I assumed that TWSitD helped with the Insurrection), this still doesn't mean that Dimitri or Claude would be the ones starting the war. The nobles in the Empire also wanted it.

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Dimitri overall doesn't believe that the system is wrong, just needs some tweaking, but this overall continues to have a divide between commoners and nobility. 

Or, he realizes that they can work together without that, which is something Edelgard was so hardheaded about.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Dimitri gives more power to the people at the end of his route, which Edelgard doesn't even do.

The second to last quote was not by me, or you messed up the quoting scheme.

29 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Also, by your logic, if Edelgard didn't make her attack to stop Claude when he was by all accounts planning to attack, and therefore allowed Claude to get the drop on her, making the war get worse than it was already, that would be better? 


There was no proof that Claude was ever going to attack. In fact, I don't think Claude ever attacked in any of the routes outside of Gronder and VW. This is what puts Edelgard in the wrong.

Edited by MrPerson0

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3 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is simply due to Claude being prepared for both outcomes. Even if he does the same thing in AM, it's a completely different context, as he was literally saved from an invasion. In CF, he gives it to you due to you being the invader, whether or not you kill him off.

And you are ignoring that this whole time, she and the other nobles always wanted to bring the Empire back to its original power

Are you again ignoring that she never once declares war on the other nations? How many times would I need to repeat this? Edelgard uses how the Church divided the Empire and then the Kingdom to create the three powers was overall propaganda toward declaring war against the Church of Seiros. She even states it in that same scene you pointed out. Never once did she ever actually say that they should go and conquer the other nations. The other nations overall fell into place, with Claude willing to cede the Alliance, and Dimitri being in the war. 

You keep saying that Edelgard wants the other nations back to its original power, but is that simply going about how she refers to the other nations as offshoots? That doesn't in any way prove that she wants the other nations back. 

6 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

That is simply due to Claude being prepared for both outcomes. Even if he does the same thing in AM, it's a completely different context, as he was literally saved from an invasion. In CF, he gives it to you due to you being the invader, whether or not you kill him off.

And you are ignoring that this whole time, she and the other nobles always wanted to bring the Empire back to its original power

The slithers helped with the Insurrection, taking advantage of a conflict that was already happening, which is how the slithers tend to work. 

Dimitri would be attacking the regent of the Empire, a man of high political standing, influence, and power. And Dimitri is the prince of Faerghus. How much are you going to ignore the fact that such an act would be an easy declaration of war? Just as revealing that the regent of the Empire killed the King would be equally as detrimental in creating a war. 

And as I very much pointed out, by Claude's admission in two routes, he wanted to unite Fodlan himself so that he could shatter the borders that kept cultural exchange out. Uniting Fodlan is literally impossible without any conflict. Even if Claude doesn't want a war to happen, his plans would have inevitably caused a war.

10 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Or, he realizes that they can work together without that, which is something Edelgard was so hardheaded about.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Dimitri gives more power to the people at the end of his route, which Edelgard doesn't even do.

The second to last quote was not by me, or you messed up the quoting scheme.

My quoting thing is a little iffy. Sorry about that.

Dimitri doesn't actually create social mobility. His reforms overall more or less just gives a voice to the people. Being active participants in the government does not, in any way, prove that commoners hold any political power of authority. Given that Dimitri hardly ever talks about his goals, he really isn't inspiring much belief over social mobility. The concept of having the nobility and commoners try and acknowledge each other's merits may as well be the case of how a noble should thank a farmer for growing food. 

Edelgard actually does provide a lot more social mobility thanks to the creation of a free education system that replaces the nobility, allowing anyone, regardless of stations, to be able to prove their own merit and rise in the social ranks. The literal fact that Edelgard even abdicates the throne and places a successor on the throne kind of makes it clear that she shattered an age old tradition of bloodlines defining who rises in the ranks. 

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35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Are you again ignoring that she never once declares war on the other nations? How many times would I need to repeat this?

And you are ignoring the fact that she outright mentioned the Church splitting up the Empire, and that the nobles wanted the Empire to control everything again. How else do you think she was able to get their support for her war? Just because she doesn't go to war with them doesn't start with her army (which TWSitD is also a part of, seemingly of her own accord according to Hubert right after you get back in CF) taking over many parts of the Kingdom and Alliance in three out of four paths.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Just as revealing that the regent of the Empire killed the King would be equally as detrimental in creating a war. 

Guess if were to ever come to that, that would be true. Still, seeing that TWSitD helped with the Insurrection, and that they were the cause of the initial attack, things would tie back to them wanting to start a war no matter what.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

And as I very much pointed out, by Claude's admission in two routes, he wanted to unite Fodlan himself so that he could shatter the borders that kept cultural exchange out. Uniting Fodlan is literally impossible without any conflict. Even if Claude doesn't want a war to happen, his plans would have inevitably caused a war.

This is something that you cannot state for fact because TWSitD were always in the picture (evidentially due to them helping with the Insurrection), and no matter what, they wanted war. If they weren't there in the first place, who knows how things would have turned out in Fodlan.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Edelgard actually does provide a lot more social mobility thanks to the creation of a free education system that replaces the nobility, allowing anyone, regardless of stations, to be able to prove their own merit and rise in the social ranks. The literal fact that Edelgard even abdicates the throne and places a successor on the throne kind of makes it clear that she shattered an age old tradition of bloodlines defining who rises in the ranks. 

We do not actually know if this is successful, or at least more successful than the others. We are led to believe that all endings turn out to be the best for Fodlan (like Dimitri "creating a world free from oppression"), so you really can't say one is better than the other.

35 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

The concept of having the nobility and commoners try and acknowledge each other's merits may as well be the case of how a noble should thank a farmer for growing food. 

If you're going to ignore what Dimitri stated (where he wants equality between everyone), by that logic, for all we know, Edelgard's successor could be someone in her family/circle of friends.

Edited by MrPerson0

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21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

And you are ignoring the fact that she outright mentioned the Church splitting up the Empire, and that the nobles wanted the Empire to control everything again. How else do you think she was able to get their support for her war? Just because she doesn't go to war with them doesn't start with her army (which TWSitD is also a part of, seemingly of her own accord according to Hubert right after you get back in CF) taking over many parts of the Kingdom and Alliance in three out of four paths.

Arguments where you're saying that she is going to definitely going to invade the other nations is purely headcanon. Because the problem is, in that very same scene, where she says that the division was done, she explicitly uses that as reasons for attacking the Church at the very end.

Quote

And so, I have decided-- by order of the Adrestian Emperor, Edelgard von Hresvelg-- the Empire hereby declares war on the Church of Seiros!

Does she, in any way, say that she is going to war against the Kingdom or the Alliance. 

Please provide the quote that proves it rather than insisting that she was going to invade the others the whole time. 

The entire reason the other nations get involved is cause of the very state of the war and how the other leaders are handling things. 

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

Guess if were to ever come to that, that would be true.

The point overall stands. Dimitri was in every likely chance of causing a war to happen because of his desire to get revenge. Hell, even in CF, he very much proves that his desire for revenge will make him go to war where he joins with the Church of Seiros and drags his nation to the war. 

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

This is something that you cannot state for fact because TWSitD were always in the picture (evidentially due to them helping with the Insurrection), and no matter what, they wanted war. If they weren't there in the first place, who knows how things would have turned out in Fodlan.

Guess what? Even if Edelgard didn't start a war, Claude's own actions would have inevitably caused one. Why do you think this guy wanted the Sword of the Creator? He didn't want it as a backscratcher, I'll tell you that much. A weapon that is known to be able to wipe out armies and cleave mountains in two. You think that that isn't something that would be good for use as a nuclear deterrent to try and force the other nations to comply? Not that it would have worked, since Rhea would definitely have gotten pissed at that.

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

We do not actually know if this is successful, or at least more successful than the others. We are led to believe that all endings turn out to be the best for Fodlan (like Dimitri "creating a world free from oppression"), so you really can't say one is better than the other.

Then by that logic, you cannot make any definite statements that Dimitri's reformations are in any way better. Also, mind you, the ending states that Dimitri sought to create a world free from oppression, not that he does or would even be able to, given that it's impossible to utterly remove oppression as humans are always going to oppress in some way in the world.

However, optimism aside, it does not change that Edelgard creates the most progressive form of changes, having abolished nobility, created free education, separated the church from the state, and also removed the borders herself, overall allowing cultural exchanges to happen. 

Keep in mind that depending on the paired ending, Manuela actually proves to ascend in the ranks, such as in her ending with Ferdinand, she's the one that becomes the prime minister, not him. Something that would not have been possible in any other route. 

21 minutes ago, MrPerson0 said:

If you're going to ignore what Dimitri stated (where he wants equality between everyone), by that logic, for all we know, Edelgard's successor could be someone in her family/circle of friends.

No, I don't ignore what he said. In fact, it's precisely BECAUSE I know what he said and the context in which he said it in that I know that he isn't actually wanting equality. You're kind of ignoring the context of the conversation. 

Well, Edelgard doesn't have any other family for that matter. Only ending where she even has kids are with Ferdinand, and with the ending even remarking that they encourage them to follow their own paths, rather than be bound to a position. 

So if we go with the circle of friends, Edelgard is still choosing someone that she deems is worthy to lead all of Fodlan. Not exactly something that Edelgard would do if that person was not in any way capable. Not to mention, it isn't someone blood related, therefore, completely breaks the normal tradition. 

Edited by omegaxis1

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1 hour ago, SigurdVII said:

The reason the Sword of the Creator is useful to Claude's plans is precisely because what they want or not no longer matters if the legends about it are true. 

Even Nemesis needed the help of his Ten Elites, and that was before the Church/Empire was formally established, and he still failed. This is putting too much stock into the Sword of the Creator as an end-all to Claude's impending difficulties even if he was to steal it.

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

Even Nemesis needed the help of his Ten Elites, and that was before the Church/Empire was formally established, and he still failed. This is putting too much stock into the Sword of the Creator as an end-all to Claude's impending difficulties even if he was to steal it.

We know he can't use it. The issue is that Claude himself believes in its power and that of the Relics. Hence why he was attempting to find out the truth about them. Keep in mind that Claude's plans in Verdant Wind only work because Byleth is in his corner. Which is the case in pretty much every route. Edelgard herself describes the power of the Sword of the Creator to take on entire armies. While the game can't account for that level of power, it should be approached this way: if Byleth used the full power of the Sword of the Creator, it'd look more like the way it does in the opening cutscene, which would probably lead to a lot of friendly fire.

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Just now, SigurdVII said:

We know he can't use it. The issue is that Claude himself believes in its power and that of the Relics. Hence why he was attempting to find out the truth about them. Keep in mind that Claude's plans in Verdant Wind only work because Byleth is in his corner. Which is the case in pretty much every route. Edelgard herself describes the power of the Sword of the Creator to take on entire armies. While the game can't account for that level of power, it should be approached this way: if Byleth used the full power of the Sword of the Creator, it'd look more like the way it does in the opening cutscene, which would probably lead to a lot of friendly fire.

The previous wielder of the Sword of the Creator obviously failed in his conquest. Pretty sure he's not going to be banking on it alone given the end result, even if the legends about it are 100% true.

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

The previous wielder of the Sword of the Creator obviously failed in his conquest. Pretty sure he's not going to be banking on it alone given the end result, even if the legends about it are 100% true.

His plans in Verdant Wind are only possible because he has the wielder of the Sword of the Creator on his side. He's also shown to be investigating the Relics in general. 

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2 minutes ago, SigurdVII said:

His plans in Verdant Wind are only possible because he has the wielder of the Sword of the Creator on his side. He's also shown to be investigating the Relics in general. 

And that the Church is in shambles/working with him. That is a far more deciding factor, imo. Stealing the sword, angering a dragon and an immensely powerful religion, while a teenager who isn't actually the leader of the Alliance yet, sounds like a horrendously dumb idea for someone who is known to be incredibly careful when taking risks. Going up against Edelgard/an invader and going up against Rhea/a powerful organized religion are two very different things.

 

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1 minute ago, Crysta said:

And that the Church is in shambles/working with him. That is a far more deciding factor, imo. Stealing the sword, angering a dragon and an immensely powerful religion, while a teenager who isn't actually the leader of the Alliance yet, sounds like a horrendously dumb idea for someone who is known to be incredibly careful when taking risks. Going up against Edelgard/an invader and going up against Rhea/a powerful organized religion are two very different things.

 

Yes, but not to the extent that the Sword of the Creator is. The Church is in shambles after five years, as opposed to when they're at peak strength in CF. It's more gameplay than anything else that creates the illusion of it not being much more powerful than the average relic. But the Sword is explicitly described by multiple people as being powerful enough to destroy mountains, armies, etc.

Nemesis losing is down to him taking on Seiros who may have been blessed by the Progenitor God too (she mentions having been blessed by Sothis as well and has the same class mastery ability as Byleth's Enlightened One class). It's impossible to deny the power of the Sword of the Creator as being important to Claude when he's shown searching for it at multiple points and straight up says to Byleth he wanted to use their power to his advantage. 

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