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Altha

Why Eliwood is so hated?

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The fact that Ike is in a much easier game with access to broken resources makes him better than Eliwood. It helps that he is always going to be deployed too whereas Eliwood doesn't get that luxury in the mode where he actually promotes at a reasonable time, but that's more of a minor thing. Otherwise you've listed several characters that people don't have a good opinion of and female characters that people tend to like to use and therefore overrate. Those don't really fall into the category of characters that are way worse than Eliwood who are ignored either.

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1 hour ago, Altha said:

Lyn, Eirika, Roy, Marth(FE11), maybe even Ike from FE9(the lack of 1-2 range option is really hurts him in such an easy game), Celica(but there I might just nitpicking to Celica route in general). Ike and Eirika not way worse than Eliwood since they're both in a much easier games, but the lack of mobility and/or lack of 1-2 range option really hurts him which make them worse imo

Lyn is only worse than Eliwood in HHM when not doing Lyn Mode because the game decided to not give her an HM boost. As long as you do her mode she is way easier to train than Eliwood, if a bit prone to screwage. 

You already covere Eirika and Ike.

Marth never seemed bad to me but i never touched Hard5 and if the scaling is crazy enought i see why.

What is so bad about Celica? She is not as dominating as Alm but she has lots of good tools. It's because she don't do much in Desert Hell while playing efficiently(but then, every lord not named Claude would suck in those maps)?

 

The biggest issue whit Eliwood is that he just don't have much going for him. Pretty much every other lord has special toys that make them useful, but Eliwood really has nothing that cannot be done by Lyn or Hector. Rapier is the worst prf weapon, his promotion is arguably the best but came too late and whitout a special weapon, Durandal comes super late. Pretty much everyone else has exclusive access to "Rapier utility" or has better stats, or promote earlier. Roy is the only one i would call worse.

 

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8 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Lyn is only worse than Eliwood in HHM when not doing Lyn Mode because the game decided to not give her an HM boost. As long as you do her mode she is way easier to train than Eliwood, if a bit prone to screwage. 

You already covere Eirika and Ike.

Marth never seemed bad to me but i never touched Hard5 and if the scaling is crazy enought i see why.

What is so bad about Celica? She is not as dominating as Alm but she has lots of good tools. It's because she don't do much in Desert Hell while playing efficiently(but then, every lord not named Claude would suck in those maps)?

 

The biggest issue whit Eliwood is that he just don't have much going for him. Pretty much every other lord has special toys that make them useful, but Eliwood really has nothing that cannot be done by Lyn or Hector. Rapier is the worst prf weapon, his promotion is arguably the best but came too late and whitout a special weapon, Durandal comes super late. Pretty much everyone else has exclusive access to "Rapier utility" or has better stats, or promote earlier. Roy is the only one i would call worse.

 

Well, yes, if Lyn trained in Lyn, she is better than Eliwood, but there is also better units to train(2 cavaliers and Florina), so for the most part it's just a waste of exp to train Lyn. And even than, Lyn is just better in the early game. But this doesn't say much, since even in early game she strugles to do anything meaningful. Sometimes she can't ORKO an enemy, sometimes she face weapon triangle disadvantage and most of the time she can't survive more than 2 hits from anything(sometimes can't survive even one hit). Eliwood is more of a long-term unit. I never saw a problem to get Lyn and Eliwood to promotion level. And while Lyn promotion is just lol, Eliwood becomes a viable unit, by having a mount and 1-2 range option which is good. And thus Eliwood good for the rest of the game while Lyn can't do much after promotion. Of course for the most part I'm refering to HNM, since I'm yet to finish HHM, but I'm also picked some notes from Mekkkah's Lyn's analysis(such as unabality to ORKO enemys, she have durability issues even in HNM).

Marth is just visiting the villages all the time and does not see any combat. Considering that there are a lot of great mounted units, even if there were no places Marth should visit, he still rarely see combat+warpskip chapters. I would have also include Marth from FE12, but there he have good bases, access to Drilling Grounds and ability double and kill enemys he have effectiveness against, so I won't nitpicking.

Maybe I have just a bad impression of Cellica and that's why I said that I'm not sure about that pick. She have good tools, sure, but they are going to late in the game, she really not contribute with it that good(but I'll say that she's one of the better mages in her route). She struggles to double much in mid-late game and gets doubled at the same time. While Alm have an access to Double Lion, Cellica have nothing. In her route there are so many units, that do better job than her: Sabar, Leon, Kamui, Palla, Catria, Deen. Overall I'm not sure about this pick, since I haven't that much expirience with fe15, so I can't say for sure

 

 

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I am not reffering to trained Lyn. I am reffering to Lyn that is not purposefully neglected.

Level 5 is stupidly low for an unit that existed for 10 chapters. If you count that she will level up once in prologue, that's 30 exp per map, a single red unit. 

 

Edited by Flere210

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Lyn: Lyn is mixed in terms of how good people think she is. She is definitely a popular character and there are people that are biased towards her and ignore her weaknesses, but from what I’ve seen, most people consider her really bad. If you play through Lyn Mode she can at least be stronger offensively than Eliwood but it’s hard to fix her durability problems. And if you skip Lyn Mode then she’s really bad.

Marth: Do people think Marth is good? I haven’t seen much talk of Marth. FE7 is a popular game, that’s probably the reason Eliwood is discussed much more than Marth.

Erika: She is considered pretty bad too.

Ike: I thought he was really good when I played POR. I can recognize his weaknesses but I don’t know if he is any worse than Eliwood. Relative to the enemy, he is probably stronger. POR is an easier game. Eliwood has noticeable problems against enemies in HHM. If you’re only talking about HNM, then maybe you’re right. Eliwood might perform better there.

Celica: Really? What’s wrong with her? She’s a good mage. Seraphim is a good spell. She can heal after promoting. I didn’t know she had any weaknesses. She’s not as strong as Sabre but neither are most characters.

Roy: Everyone says that Roy is bad. He is always voted as the worst Lord in polls. I actually think he is underrated but I agree that he’s bad.

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10 hours ago, Altha said:

Well, yes, if Lyn trained in Lyn, she is better than Eliwood, but there is also better units to train(2 cavaliers and Florina), so for the most part it's just a waste of exp to train Lyn. And even than, Lyn is just better in the early game. But this doesn't say much, since even in early game she strugles to do anything meaningful. Sometimes she can't ORKO an enemy, sometimes she face weapon triangle disadvantage and most of the time she can't survive more than 2 hits from anything(sometimes can't survive even one hit). Eliwood is more of a long-term unit. I never saw a problem to get Lyn and Eliwood to promotion level. And while Lyn promotion is just lol, Eliwood becomes a viable unit, by having a mount and 1-2 range option which is good. And thus Eliwood good for the rest of the game while Lyn can't do much after promotion. Of course for the most part I'm refering to HNM, since I'm yet to finish HHM, but I'm also picked some notes from Mekkkah's Lyn's analysis(such as unabality to ORKO enemys, she have durability issues even in HNM).

This doesn't tell me how Eliwood is better when at least two of those problems you say apply to Lyn also apply to Eliwood.

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18 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

This doesn't tell me how Eliwood is better when at least two of those problems you say apply to Lyn also apply to Eliwood.

Eliwood is able to survive more hits which gives you a lot more options in how you use him, making more useful in more situations. Lyn dies too easily.

Eliwood gets Lances after promoting, including 1-2 range Javelins which have many uses.

Eliwood also gets a horse after promotion, giving him 7 Mov, very high Aid, and Canto. Even aside from combat. He now has more utility than Lyn.

Altha mentioned all of those things.

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Wich are all things that make him a worse paladin. Lyn at least has unique access of rapier utility in her whole mode, while eliwood has that for one chapter(iirc whit no cavalry or armors) or never.

Requiring tons of babying just for being a worse Sain is better than doing so while being a worse Guy, but both are quite bad.

Also, even whitout her mode, Lyn start whit the same base str of Eliwood and a better "rapier" meaning she come better equipped at using that one niche that lords have whitout babying, even if she is far worse than Hector at that.

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32 minutes ago, Whisky said:

How do I delete this?

Reporting your post usually helps. That's what I have done when I double post anyway =P.

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Well, yes, if Lyn trained in Lyn, she is better than Eliwood, but there is also better units to train(2 cavaliers and Florina), so for the most part it's just a waste of exp to train Lyn.

You want to be careful about saying this sort of thing. It's not worth putting resources into either of the two long term unless Eliwood gets blessed, so if we go by that logic then the better character is determined by what they contribute early on. Eliwood exists in the first 5 chapters of HHM, so by that logic he's still better, but he also doesn't get deployed after that unless he gets blessed enough to the point that it's worth using him.

The Lyn vs. Eliwood discussion isn't really doing much to show that there are characters that are much worse than Eliwood that are ignored though. Lyn is often overrated and not really ignored (or at least she was historically, and I would argue that it has more to do with the fact that people like Lyn than how she performs as a character). That being said Eliwood isn't actually good, so there aren't many lords that are much worse than him to begin with. He might get a mount in chapter 26, but getting one doesn't automatically make him good.

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1 hour ago, Whisky said:

Eliwood is able to survive more hits which gives you a lot more options in how you use him, making more useful in more situations. Lyn dies too easily.

Eliwood gets Lances after promoting, including 1-2 range Javelins which have many uses.

Eliwood also gets a horse after promotion, giving him 7 Mov, very high Aid, and Canto. Even aside from combat. He now has more utility than Lyn.

Altha mentioned all of those things.

Problem is, he gets his horse and Lances rather late. That's what Altha glossed over. Also, I'm not sure he can take that much more punishment than Lyn can. Considering how bad Eliwood is to start off, I'm not convinced that it would be worth the investment if I was playing HHM.

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7 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Problem is, he gets his horse and Lances rather late. That's what Altha glossed over. Also, I'm not sure he can take that much more punishment than Lyn can. Considering how bad Eliwood is to start off, I'm not convinced that it would be worth the investment if I was playing HHM.

 

Oh, I don’t think Eliwood is worth using, but I don’t think Lyn is either. We are basically comparing two bad characters and trying to figure out which is less bad. They both start off bad. Eliwood promotes late but so does Lyn and at least he gets more out of it than Lyn.

 

Eliwood certainly isn’t tanky, but compared to Lyn he kind of is. Even at level 1 Eliwood has 18 HP, 5 Def. at level 5 he his average is 23 HP, 6 Def. Lyn if you skip LHM has 18 HP, 2 Def. That’s a pretty noticeable difference. Lyn will get 2HKOed by almost anything, and can even get OHKOed by strong enemies. Eliwood can survive 2 hits from a lot more enemies than Lyn which helps a lot. 
 

If you train Lyn to level 7 in LHM she should have 20 HP, 3 Def. Still gets 2HKOed by anything with at least 13 Atk. Eliwood can survive two hits from enemies with up to 17 Atk. There are quite a lot of enemies in that range.

 

Lyn’s biggest advantage is her Spd. But at some point in the game Eliwood will reach a point where he can double most normal enemies, making Lyn’s high Spd a situational advantage over Eliwood. Whereas I think that Eliwood’s higher durability and promotion bonuses once he gets them, are going to be useful in more situations than Lyn’s Spd.
 

Now I think it is worth something (if not much) that Lyn has access to an Angelic Robe and Energy Ring in LHM. It shouldn’t be worth much because there are better candidates for those items. But at least you can use them on Lyn. You cannot use them on Eliwood. 
 

I don’t really know if Lyn can be better than Eliwood without these items.

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EDIT: woops, missed that there was a page 2. My bad.

Those units are certainly not waaay worse than him. Worse than him at all is questionable, even.

Eliwood is not a good unit. On his own route he's screwed over by his late promotion, and that's the one everyone has to do.

Even on Hector route, he has the same sword-lock problem as Lyn, Eirika, and Ike9 for a long time, but at least they join with 9 base spd (or in Ike's case, has 55% growth), get axe-heavy softball parts of their games to get rolling (Lyn Mode, early Eirika route, and early FE9 all feel both easier and have fewer units available than early Hector route imo). Eirika's Rapier is better than Eliwood's to boot due to 3x mt. You can say he's better than them post-promotion when he gets javelins but even then I'm kinda skeptical because Eirika gets a 21-mt prf (37-mt vs monsters) so she can ORKO basically anything and Ike9 should be unhittable by then with 40+ avo from supports.

I'm not trying to get into a tier discussion because that can focus on specific things, but there's a reason that most players would casually have a low opinion on Eliwood gameplaywise, even compared to the other units you mentioned.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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On 12/13/2019 at 12:43 AM, Altha said:

so for the most part it's just a waste of exp to train Lyn.

Just gonna chime in to say this is not an argument. You don't compare unused Lyn to Eliwood or to anyone; obviously she'll be bad. You judge her (and anyone else) based on using her.

I also think durability in FE7 is overrated but, *shrug*

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I don't think there's anything wrong with Eliwood, he's just bland to use from a gameplay point of view, I think. Like for Hector, you can say he's going to have a monster str stat, but for Eliwood, he's just that average guy, usually. I couldn't say for a practical use, since I don't take FE that seriously, but he just isn't a "fun" unit to use to me.

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Just gonna chime in to say this is not an argument. You don't compare unused Lyn to Eliwood or to anyone; obviously she'll be bad. You judge her (and anyone else) based on using her.

I'm assuming that he's trying to compare Lyn to Eliwood in a theoretically 'optimal' playthrough, and we can absolutely judge characters based on that.

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55 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

I'm assuming that he's trying to compare Lyn to Eliwood in a theoretically 'optimal' playthrough, and we can absolutely judge characters based on that.

That doesn’t change anything.

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That doesn’t change anything.

No, it absolutely does change things.

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You judge her (and anyone else) based on using her

I provided an instance where we don't compare Lyn to other characters based on using her.

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1 hour ago, samthedigital said:

No, it absolutely does change things.

I provided an instance where we don't compare Lyn to other characters based on using her.

Alright, you got two options here.

  1. You do what I say, and use a so-called "optimal" team that also includes Lyn or Eliwood for the purposes of, you know, actually judging what they're capable of.
  2. You use only the most optimal team, which doesn't include Lyn or Eliwood, and therefore they are both unused and thus equally worthless.

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Alright, you got two options here.

  1. You do what I say, and use a so-called "optimal" team that also includes Lyn or Eliwood for the purposes of, you know, actually judging what they're capable of.
  2. You use only the most optimal team, which doesn't include Lyn or Eliwood, and therefore they are both unused and thus equally worthless.

Eliwood is slightly more useful than Lyn in the second context because he has some early game contributions. I don't disagree with your sentiment though; I would also rather use the first criteria to compare characters, but I don't think that Altha is comparing characters that way.

Edited by samthedigital

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16 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

Eliwood is slightly more useful than Lyn in the second context because he has some early game contributions. I don't disagree with your sentiment though; I would also rather use the first criteria to compare characters, but I don't think that Altha is comparing characters that way.

Altha started this thread talking about how he used Eliwood for an entire playthrough (talking about his promotion), which strongly suggests the first criteria.

(The second criteria is awful for conversations anyway.)

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