What’s your least favorite Smash argument?

[Jingilator]

Just as the title says. What arguments can you not stand in the least when it comes to Smash speculation, whether it be characters, stages, mechanics, etc.?

For me, it’s a myriad of things, but one thing I recently don’t like is the idea of Byleth being a Pokémon Trainer-esque character when the whole point of Three Houses is that the house leaders have their reasons for fighting separately, hence the choice of which house leader you should pick.

[Fabulously Olivier]

I don't like the above argument, because it doesn't take into account the nuance of Smash character representation and fun gameplay, but rather obsesses over trivial concerns. Byleth is a teacher, and that implementation would be a fantastic way of representing this core pillar of Three Houses as a game while pleasing fans of all houses.

 

But onto my pet peeve - too many sword wielders. Outside of echo fighters, they all play substantially differently. 

[Flere210]

Asking for FoTM that will be forgotten 5 years from now to be in smash. 

[vanguard333]

12 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I don't like the above argument, because it doesn't take into account the nuance of Smash character representation and fun gameplay, but rather obsesses over trivial concerns. Byleth is a teacher, and that implementation would be a fantastic way of representing this core pillar of Three Houses as a game while pleasing fans of all houses.

This. Byleth being Pokémon Trainer would also allow for plenty of variety: Edelgard brings the axes and magic, Dimitri brings lances, and Claude brings bows and poisoned lunch. 

 

For me, it's the idea that Fire Emblem is over-represented. Yeah; it has seven characters, which is too many. But four of them are derived from Marth, either directly (Marth, Lucina, Roy) or indirectly (Chrom). In a way, Fire Emblem doesn't have seven characters; it has four that are actually different. At least the three versions of Link have enough differences that they don't feel exactly the same to play. Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom feel almost exactly the same to me. 

[lightcosmo]

6 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

For me, it's the idea that Fire Emblem is over-represented. Yeah; it has seven characters, which is too many. But four of them are derived from Marth, either directly (Marth, Lucina, Roy) or indirectly (Chrom). In a way, Fire Emblem doesn't have seven characters; it has four that are actually different. At least the three versions of Link have enough differences that they don't feel exactly the same to play. Marth, Lucina, Roy and Chrom feel almost exactly the same to me. 

This, and when people try to defend the buffer system, like it's good for the game. All it does is make inputs unreliable, honestly.

[Reality]

People arguing that you must face the ledge for ledgegrab to activate (ala melee) … This annoys everyone in the room compared to the modern ledges, and the chars that benefit are mostly ones that Shouldn't - the ones that already have good aerial mobility, and  Doctor / Mario's Cape. 

[lightcosmo]

6 minutes ago, Reality said:

People arguing that you must face the ledge for ledgegrab to activate (ala melee) … This annoys everyone in the room compared to the modern ledges, and the chars that benefit are mostly ones that Shouldn't - the ones that already have good aerial mobility, and  Doctor / Mario's Cape. 

Not that i don't agree, but doesn't the game always favor the more mobile characters? Another one i don't like is that people like to argue that safe grabbing a ledge with recoveries is a great idea. I would rather have some actual risk on a recovery, so you can actually go offstage against some characters.

[NinjaMonkey]

33 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

For me, it's the idea that Fire Emblem is over-represented. Yeah; it has seven characters, which is too many.

I like how you contradict yourself immediately after saying that you hate the idea that FE is over-represented, by saying that it has too many representatives.

[vanguard333]

35 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

I like how you contradict yourself immediately after saying that you hate the idea that FE is over-represented, by saying that it has too many representatives.

That was intentional; if you read on, you'll see that I immediately bring up my main point that explains why it isn't a contradiction: it may have too many characters, but only because a majority of them are either Marth or one of his (semi-)clones, and that that's the real problem; too many Marths. It isn't as easy as saying FE is over-represented. 

My stance isn't that Fire Emblem doesn't have too many characters; my stance is that it's more complicated than that, so it's not a contradiction. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by vanguard333

[Flere210]

I feel the problem whit fire emblem is highlighted when compared to pokemon. Both have a multitude of character whit many variations of fighting styles, but fire emblem get as many reps as pokemon despite: 1) having far less characters and 2) being a much smaller franchise. And to add salt to the injury, while the pokemon's roster is way less diverse than it could be, it's still far more diverse than the fire emblem's roster.  

Fe has both too many character and wrong characters and is one of the reasons i actually don't like "everyone is here"(the others are pichu and the 3 versions of Link)

 

 

As for the topic: people wanting to keep Falcondorf because they like the playstyle. Because nintendo can just make a new character that fit the theme(i like the suggestion of Black Shadow, but they are not going to put another F-Zero rep in 2020) whit the moves of Falcondorf and gives to Ganondorf a moveset that looks like how he fight in the games he is in.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Flere210

[Gregster101]

Bandana Dee being "a goomba with a hat". I hate that argument to death.

[vanguard333]

34 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

As for the topic: people wanting to keep Falcondorf because they like the playstyle. Because Nintendo can just make a new character that fit the theme(i like the suggestion of Black Shadow, but they are not going to put another F-Zero rep in 2020) whit the moves of Falcondorf and gives to Ganondorf a moveset that looks like how he fight in the games he is in.

I completely agree. Ganondorf should have moves derived from The Legend of Zelda, not Captain Falcon, and they can add a character that has Falcondorf's moveset. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

2 hours ago, Flere210 said:

Asking for FoTM that will be forgotten 5 years from now to be in smash. 

I dislike the argument that pre-supposes that a current character will be forgotten in a few years without evidence, and often in direct contradiction to what we've seen happen these past few years. 

 

Should we be giving all of our attention to nostalgia bait from the 90s and 2000s? No. We should be acknowledging our new icons as well as the past. 

[Flere210]

11 minutes ago, Etheus said:

I dislike the argument that pre-supposes that a current character will be forgotten in a few years without evidence, and often in direct contradiction to what we've seen happen these past few years. 

 

Should we be giving all of our attention to nostalgia bait from the 90s and 2000s? No. We should be acknowledging our new icons as well as the past. 

How protagonists of top selling games of 2014 can you mention whitout googling? 

[Florete]

Anyone being a "waste of a slot," especially when it concerns clone characters. Some people just don't realize that if Lucina wasn't in the game, it wouldn't mean [your most wanted] would get in...unless [your most wanted] would work as a Marth clone.

[Fabulously Olivier]

7 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

How protagonists of top selling games of 2014 can you mention whitout googling? 

Considering I don't catalogue games by year, that's an unfair question. I couldn't tell you what year Pokemon Red and Blue came out without googling it.

 

As far as iconic games go, 2014 was a bad year, and part of me thinks that you picked a poor year intentionally. But it did have The Last of Us, Shovel Knight, and Bayonetta. Those have all remained mainstays.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Etheus

[Flere210]

Just now, Etheus said:

Considering I don't catalogue games by year, that's an unfair question. I couldn't tell you what year Pokemon Red and Blue came out without googling it.

 

As far as iconic games go, 2014 was a bad year. But it did have The Last of Us, Shovel Knight, and Bayonetta. Those have all remained mainstays.

You can tell that 2014 was a bad year because we are in 2019.

I am not saying that the current decade has no iconic character, i am saying that FoTM are not always iconic. For example, Ezio Auditore stuck as the face of Assassin Creed even after many games not featuring him. Another example is that Xenogears was extremely higly regarded(and imo overrated) in the PS1 era, but now Xeboblade fans more often than not only vaguely know what the Xeno stand for. If evalutated in 1998 people would rate Xenogears as a much greater icon of what it turned out being. 

[Fabulously Olivier]

1 minute ago, Flere210 said:

You can tell that 2014 was a bad year because we are in 2019.

I am not saying that the current decade has no iconic character, i am saying that FoTM are not always iconic. For example, Ezio Auditore stuck as the face of Assassin Creed even after many games not featuring him. Another example is that Xenogears was extremely higly regarded(and imo overrated) in the PS1 era, but now Xeboblade fans more often than not only vaguely know what the Xeno stand for. If evalutated in 1998 people would rate Xenogears as a much greater icon of what it turned out being. 

It's funny that you mention Xeno, because even though the earlier Xeno games are not iconic, KOS-MOS is.

 

Also, the entire argument is silly because Smash creates icons. No one would care about Ike and Roy if not for Smash. Bayonetta's games sold terribly, and her icon status is because of Smash. And do you think anyone would still care about Earthbound/Mother 3 if not for Smash?

[Flere210]

Just now, Etheus said:

It's funny that you mention Xeno, because even though the earlier Xeno games are not iconic, KOS-MOS is.

That my entire point. The moment xenogear was released they could not predict that KOS-MOS would stole the glory from its cast. As Yoko Taro could not predict that 2B was going to make people forget that Nier is part of the Drakengard franchise. 

"Wich characters keep going strong after further games are released" imo is a decent litmus test to check who become an icon. 

 

[This boi uses Nino]

I actually kind of do like the argument that many sword users exist. And I also don't think we should bring FE characters from every game that comes out. Like... no? We don't need that many new characters, the roster is pretty damn big as it is I think we can slow down.


So I suppose the argument I dislike is the ones that dislike how people dislike FE characters in Smash. Not that I don't like FE characters in Smash just that we don't need that many anyways.

[Fabulously Olivier]

6 minutes ago, This boi uses Nino said:

I actually kind of do like the argument that many sword users exist. And I also don't think we should bring FE characters from every game that comes out. Like... no? We don't need that many new characters, the roster is pretty damn big as it is I think we can slow down.


So I suppose the argument I dislike is the ones that dislike how people dislike FE characters in Smash. Not that I don't like FE characters in Smash just that we don't need that many anyways.

On the other side of the coin, this is also the first FE to enter the cultural zeitgeist in a big way. When people call this "the game that launched a billion memes," they are only slightly exaggerating.

 

I think that's a landmark that deserves crowning. But unfortunately, because FEs chances at reps in Smash were so thoroughly overdone and misused, we may not see it happen now that it actually deserves it most.

 

And I think that also applies to spinoffs as well. FE Warriors would be a far better and more diverse game now than it was back in the Fates era. 

[Captain Karnage]

1 hour ago, Florete said:

Anyone being a "waste of a slot," especially when it concerns clone characters. Some people just don't realize that if Lucina wasn't in the game, it wouldn't mean [your most wanted] would get in...unless [your most wanted] would work as a Marth clone.

I really hate that argument too, I swear some people must think they build characters like her from the ground up like the original instead of modifying assets to make it happen.

___

Any argument for Sora without Disney, as much as I dislike the idea of him being in Smash, it's a part of his core identity 

[Glennstavos]

When people defend the sword characters by saying "nobody complains about too many fist fighters" Just...what? The vast majority of characters have arms and legs, how does that make them unoriginal? And that venn diagram of sword fighters and "brawlers", yeesh what a trainwreck. There's nothing wrong with rating characters by their moveset potential. And in a 2D plane, there are only so many ways you can swing a pointy stick. There's the good way - vertically, the bad way - horizontally, and stabbing - which is the same as horizontally as far as hitboxes are concerned.

[Flere210]

Also not all brawler are anime pretty boys that comes from a JRPG.

[Yexin]

i hate it when people try to find justifications for their most wanted characters to be dlc by stating that assist trophies and spirits don't deconfirm said characters (looking at you, waluigi fans)