Crimson Flower isn't a end route ! Other route is more revelated !

[drattakbowser]

Very dispointed Crimson Flower no more paralogue and no end , other route can be more good !

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Crimson Flower and Azure Moon are both predominantly character-driven routes, with Edelgard and Dimitri's backstory, character development and relationship with Byleth being the main focus. Personally, I think this makes CF and AM the two best routes in the game, as Edelgard and Dimitri really are the two central characters and driving forces behind the story. The routes that make them the focus tell the strongest, most compelling narrative, imo.

Verdant Wind and Silver Snow are the lore-dump routes. They explain everything about Byleth's birth, Nemesis and the history between the Agarthans and the Nabateans, but the stories themselves come off as half-assed as a result. So while more of the game's backstory is delved into on VW and SS, we end up with narrative disasters like zombie Nemesis, Byleth's sudden Rhea obsession post-skip, Dimitri's dumbass redshirt death at Gronder and the whole "God-Emperor Byleth" ending. Claude in particular gets steamrolled the worst, since his own route hardly gives him or his goals the same attention as CF and AM give Edelgard and Dimitri.

Also, CF does have an ending. Rhea and the Church are defeated, the three regions of Fódlan are united under one banner and Edelgard’s goals of reforming the corrupt nobility system realized. If you're talking about there being no on-screen fight against TWSITD, this is explained in Hubert's paralogue:

Quote

Hubert: They are looking down on us. They think we cannot touch them. But the closer we get to them, the less true that becomes. Just look at this weaponry we received as a token of their appreciation. It would be impossible for us to manufacture such a piece with our current tools and knowledge. It is not as powerful as a Relic, but it is nearly so. We will keep them close, for now, while we still need their strength to rule Fódlan. Once Fódlan is united, however, the focus of this war will shift. Rather than swords clashing on the battlefield, it will be knives cutting in the darkness. Lady Edelgard's war will be over, and House Vestra's will begin. We who rule the shadows will eradicate those who slither in the dark. When that time comes, Professor, you will be quite useful to us.

Hubert basically plans to assassinate Arundel and whoever's left of TWSITD's leadership after that.

[Barren]

9 minutes ago, RainbowMoon said:

Crimson Flower and Azure Moon are both predominantly character-driven routes, with Edelgard and Dimitri's backstory, character development and relationship with Byleth being the main focus. Personally, I think this makes CF and AM the two best routes in the game, as Edelgard and Dimitri really are the two central characters and driving forces behind the story. The routes that make them the focus tell the strongest, most compelling narrative, imo.

Verdant Wind and Silver Snow are the lore-dump routes. They explain everything about Byleth's birth, Nemesis and the history between the Agarthans and the Nabateans, but the stories themselves come off as half-assed as a result. So while more of the game's backstory is delved into on VW and SS, we end up with narrative disasters like zombie Nemesis, Byleth's sudden Rhea obsession post-skip, Dimitri's dumbass redshirt death at Gronder and the whole "God-Emperor Byleth" ending. Claude in particular gets steamrolled the worst, since his own route hardly gives him or his goals the same attention as CF and AM give Edelgard and Dimitri.

Also, CF does have an ending. Rhea and the Church are defeated, the three regions of Fódlan are united under one banner and Edelgard’s goals of reforming the corrupt nobility system realized. If you're talking about there being no on-screen fight against TWSITD, this is explained in Hubert's paralogue:

Hubert basically plans to assassinate Arundel and whoever's left of TWSITD's leadership after that.

I second this. These two are the better story driven routes considering that pending which house you pick between the two you see how they develop as people as you got to know them. I like Claude as a character but to me he felt like a passenger. Silver Snow does reveal Byleth's birth in detail but then you get a random transformation from Rhea and nearly everyone went berserk. That I still couldn't wrap my head around how that happened in Silver Snow but not in Verdant Wind. It's probably something I'm missing here or I maybe something I don't quite understand.

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28 minutes ago, Barren said:

That I still couldn't wrap my head around how that happened in Silver Snow but not in Verdant Wind. It's probably something I'm missing here or I maybe something I don't quite understand.

It feels like such a huge plot hole. On SS, tanking the javelins is enough to kneejerk her into berserk dragon mode for the final map, but on VW she's... suddenly fine even though the exact same thing happened to her there? It's the same cutscene and everything, it makes no sense at all.

And all so we can have sweet zombie Nemesis singing opera in the shower instead? lol

[Sooks]

Verdant wind is the perfect ending “but-not-evil” route and also dumps all the lore so I guess it becomes the best ending route. And we randomly learn that opening Fodlan’s borders is important, and that’s achieved and racism is over. Hooray!

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

Byleth's sudden Rhea obsession post-skip,

What..?

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19 minutes ago, Sooks said:

What..?

If you check out her post-skip dialogue choices on VW, Byleth talks a lot about Rhea and how important it is that they find her, even more so than on SS. There's no real explanation to why she's suddenly so attached to Rhea, especially on a route where they have such limited interaction prior. It feels almost like something from SS they forgot to edit out when they made VW.

[vikingsfan92]

8 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Crimson Flower and Azure Moon are both predominantly character-driven routes, with Edelgard and Dimitri's backstory, character development and relationship with Byleth being the main focus. Personally, I think this makes CF and AM the two best routes in the game, as Edelgard and Dimitri really are the two central characters and driving forces behind the story. The routes that make them the focus tell the strongest, most compelling narrative, imo.

Verdant Wind and Silver Snow are the lore-dump routes. They explain everything about Byleth's birth, Nemesis and the history between the Agarthans and the Nabateans, but the stories themselves come off as half-assed as a result. So while more of the game's backstory is delved into on VW and SS, we end up with narrative disasters like zombie Nemesis, Byleth's sudden Rhea obsession post-skip, Dimitri's dumbass redshirt death at Gronder and the whole "God-Emperor Byleth" ending. Claude in particular gets steamrolled the worst, since his own route hardly gives him or his goals the same attention as CF and AM give Edelgard and Dimitri.

Overall I agree with this for the most part. I just think AM goes to much into the all about Dimtri side for my liking.  I think this mostly is due to the fact the structure of the plot is kind of more about 2 sides (empire vs others) than it is three. If you want to see anti-empire characters of other houses you can take your pick on the three non-cf routes. Blue lion route Petra and Golden Deer route Petra for an example aren't that different if at all.  Something more to diverge AM, VW and SS more noticeably would probably go along way to generating interest in other recruited characters without Dimtri being involved.

CF has to show different sides to the recruits of other houses you bring by necessity of it being anti church.  So even if people you grabbed from the blue lions or golden deer don't show up in cutscenes you still get dialogue that is the most changed when you do encounter them.  The situation around them provides something to go more in on that is unique to them.  It would be nice to say the same about AM but unfortunately other routes are also focusing on fighting the same enemy so motivations don't change that much.

[Barren]

2 hours ago, vikingsfan92 said:

Overall I agree with this for the most part. I just think AM goes to much into the all about Dimtri side for my liking.  I think this mostly is due to the fact the structure of the plot is kind of more about 2 sides (empire vs others) than it is three. If you want to see anti-empire characters of other houses you can take your pick on the three non-cf routes. Blue lion route Petra and Golden Deer route Petra for an example aren't that different if at all.  Something more to diverge AM, VW and SS more noticeably would probably go along way to generating interest in other recruited characters without Dimtri being involved.

CF has to show different sides to the recruits of other houses you bring by necessity of it being anti church.  So even if people you grabbed from the blue lions or golden deer don't show up in cutscenes you still get dialogue that is the most changed when you do encounter them.  The situation around them provides something to go more in on that is unique to them.  It would be nice to say the same about AM but unfortunately other routes are also focusing on fighting the same enemy so motivations don't change that much.

I think Lysithea’s dialogue in the beginning of Azure Moon is different from Crimson Flower as well as Silver Snow and Verdant Wind. Something about not really caring about the kingdom one way or another as long as she gets back at Edelgard or something. I don’t remember the exact wording but I know she mentions her. But yes it would have been rather interesting if everyone you recruited all had different dialogue pending on the route. The only ones that are vastly different or the original students from the house you picked.

[HK Motendra]

11 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

It feels like such a huge plot hole. On SS, tanking the javelins is enough to kneejerk her into berserk dragon mode for the final map, but on VW she's... suddenly fine even though the exact same thing happened to her there? It's the same cutscene and everything, it makes no sense at all.

Isn't it implied that she dies from her wounds afterwards?

[------]

1 hour ago, Motendra said:

Isn't it implied that she dies from her wounds afterwards?

The ending never confirms what exactly happened to her, she just kinda... vanishes. She isn't seen or mentioned again after giving her infodump speech, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of her disappearance. She could've died, or run off to Zanado like on AM, or she's still living in Garreg Mach, it's pretty much left up in the air.

The thing I find strange though is that she doesn't go berserk like on SS. On both routes, she goes with Byleth and co. to Shambhala, Thales fires off the javelins and she goes dragon mode to shoot them down. On SS, this triggers her dragon madness and she has to be taken down by force, but on VW she's severely wounded and seemingly dies offscreen. Even though nothing happened differently between the two routes.

[Etrurian emperor]

14 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Also, CF does have an ending. Rhea and the Church are defeated, the three regions of Fódlan are united under one banner and Edelgard’s goals of reforming the corrupt nobility system realized. If you're talking about there being no on-screen fight against TWSITD, this is explained in Hubert's paralogue:
 

14 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

Hubert basically plans to assassinate Arundel and whoever's left of TWSITD's leadership after that.

 

Personally I never had much issue with Crimson Flower treating the Slitherers like an afterthought because in the end that's exactly what they are. A collection of joke villains who Edelgard crushes as casually as Duke Aegir once their use has run out. Sure they have nukes but also a low population and a dirt of competence. Them also completely dropping their guard at the idea of Edelgard turning on them, despite them knowing she'll turn on them isn't exactly going to help their war effort either. Going straight from a climactic final battle with Rhea in a burning city to hunting down joke villains would just be weird. 

However I think that the writers kinda changed their mind about the Slitherers all getting assassinated. The update that made Jeritza playable showed that there really was an assault on Mole town and that Jeritza and Byleth were part of it. The endings of Alois and Balthus(neither good candidates for assasins) also suggest that at one point Edelgard marched down her army into Mole town and started wrecking up the place. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Personally I never had much issue with Crimson Flower treating the Slitherers like an afterthought because in the end that's exactly what they are. A collection of joke villains who Edelgard crushes as casually as Duke Aegir once their use has run out. Sure they have nukes but also a low population and a dirt of competence. Them also completely dropping their guard at the idea of Edelgard turning on them, despite them knowing she'll turn on them isn't exactly going to help their war effort either. Going straight from a climactic final battle with Rhea in a burning city to hunting down joke villains would just be weird. 

I don't think the Slitherins are as weak as suggested - as you said, they have the nukes, and Arundel is already the second-highest authority in the Empire. If they were vaguely competent, they could totally pull off a coup. But yeah, the competence isn't there, since the story wouldn't work if it was.

I think the bolded one is the more significant point - Rhea is the perfect final boss for Edelgard's route. Defeating her, and loosing the Church's grip over Fodlan, is her principal rationale for the war. Any other final boss would be a serious anti-climax.

1 hour ago, RainbowMoon said:

The thing I find strange though is that she doesn't go berserk like on SS. On both routes, she goes with Byleth and co. to Shambhala, Thales fires off the javelins and she goes dragon mode to shoot them down. On SS, this triggers her dragon madness and she has to be taken down by force, but on VW she's severely wounded and seemingly dies offscreen. Even though nothing happened differently between the two routes.

This is a perfect instance of how not to do "the course of events varies based on which route you pick". If Rhea not going berserk were, say, the result of arcane research conducted by Claude, then the difference could be explained. Similarly, if Nemesis waking up were the result of Claude going to Shambhala (maybe his curiosity gets the better of him, and he presses the jolly, red candy-like button), at least then there's a rationale for him not being on Silver Snow.

[Moltz23]

2 hours ago, RainbowMoon said:

The ending never confirms what exactly happened to her, she just kinda... vanishes. She isn't seen or mentioned again after giving her infodump speech, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to make of her disappearance. She could've died, or run off to Zanado like on AM, or she's still living in Garreg Mach, it's pretty much left up in the air.

If you do Catherine's S-rank support in VW it's alluded that Rhea passed away already. The only way to prevent the same in SS is by having unlocked Rhea's A-Support.

   Catherine: Now that she's gone, I'm lost. I don't know what to do.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Moltz23

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I don't think the Slitherins are as weak as suggested - as you said, they have the nukes, and Arundel is already the second-highest authority in the Empire. If they were vaguely competent, they could totally pull off a coup. But yeah, the competence isn't there, since the story wouldn't work if it was.

I don't think they're completely incompetent, but I do think Thales is arrogant (we don't get much dialog from him because the game doesn't care about him much, but what's there comes off as arrogant bluster dismissive of humans) and underestimates how much Edelgard and Hubert have done their homework. From VW/SS we know the javelins of light can be used to trace the location of Shambhala so we know Edelgard and friends have a bit of a trump card in the post-game espionage war.

[Etrurian emperor]

46 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I don't think they're completely incompetent, but I do think Thales is arrogant (we don't get much dialog from him because the game doesn't care about him much, but what's there comes off as arrogant bluster dismissive of humans) and underestimates how much Edelgard and Hubert have done their homework. From VW/SS we know the javelins of light can be used to trace the location of Shambhala so we know Edelgard and friends have a bit of a trump card in the post-game espionage war.

Thales is easily the most competent of the bunch. Unlike Solon and Kronya he doesn't drop his disguise and the benefits that would come with it out of a desire to commit random acts of evil, nor does immediately give away the plot like Cornelia by whispering to Gilbert ''Lol I'm actually really evil and I'm gonna destroy the nation for fun''. His power in the empire seems unusually stable for a Slitherer.

But he's still really incompetent. Its rather telling that Dimitri can stop him by complete accident without ever finding out he's Thales to begin with. He's also a bit too passive aggressive towards Edelgard for his disguise to really be a disguise.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Etrurian emperor

[------]

8 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

The endings of Alois and Balthus(neither good candidates for assasins)

What do you mean? How could Alois say no to Swordfaire, Locktouch and Stealth?! It's all too good to pass up!

crickets

...no? Okay, I'll grab my coat.

[vikingsfan92]

9 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I think the bolded one is the more significant point - Rhea is the perfect final boss for Edelgard's route. Defeating her, and loosing the Church's grip over Fodlan, is her principal rationale for the war. Any other final boss would be a serious anti-climax.

I personally think Thales actually makes more sense or at the very least as much sense as Rhea does as a final boss. I do think he is literally the only other final boss that would make sense though.  Hubert in general on CF tells us how much animosity there is between him and Edelgard on Edelgards side.  Heck even in part 1 as the flame emperor she says to his face there will be no salvation for his kind. And in the final chapters she actually likes it if Byleth tells Aurindel that killing Cornellia who was loyal to Thales was intentional.  He also was responsible for imprisoning all the emperors heirs and experimentation on Edelgard and her siblings which played a big role in making Edelgard dislike the church in the first place.

 

I do think Rhea is a great final boss mechanically and for story reasons. I just think there are a lot of lore reasons for Thales to be the final boss and there are arguments to be made for both to be final boss.  No one else would make sense to me other than one of Rhea or Thales. I kind of view it the same way as I do one piece where I don't think there would be wrong answer for Luffy's final enemy to the government or his biggest pirate rival both would work for me. But I do want to see both conflicts though. Just like I want see the confrontation between Thales and Edelgard at the end of CF. I wouldn't mind if they put Thales before Rhea either just as long as we see it.

Edited February 14, 2021 by vikingsfan92