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[Eltosian Kadath]

19 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Corrin and Byleth do the same thing but better since they're actual characters that fit in their own stories.

By being both the main character and an Avatar, they force the negative aspects of an Avatar into the main character of the entire story, whereas Marth is still around in FE12, and still the main character...

 

32 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Kris doesn't add much of anything nor what Kris "brings" is exclusive to them nor that great. A lot of characters' only support in FE12 center around Kris and their minimal 

And adding anything is better than the other Avatars do for their games.

 

8 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Jagen doesn't steal Marth's moments of competency actually.

Jagen literally does that in Book 2 chapter 1. I am sure I could dig through the script for more, but the very first chapter of Mystery of the Emblem book 2 has Jagen stealing a clear moment of competency from Marth.

 

16 minutes ago, Seazas said:

In Chapter 17, Marth cooks up a plan to show his competency, in FE12 he asks Kris to do it. That is some prime character butchering just to make Kris look good.

And it instead show Marth being this thing called a competent leader.

 

21 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

Norne as a character had some relations and interesting potential before FE12, and then FE12 reduced her to a Kris cheerleader. Say what you will about Byleth and Corrin, at least they have the decency not to have characters' entire traits be worshipping them.

And that is more a problem with the new character (at least for those that don't intentionally suck at FE11 normal mode...) Faye Norne, not specifically with Kris...plus there are multiple entire school classes of characters that worship Byleth and Corrin isn't far behind with the worshipers, so only having one sounds far less awful...

 

[Seazas]

8 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

By being both the main character and an Avatar, they force the negative aspects of an Avatar into the main character of the entire story, whereas Marth is still around in FE12, and still the main character...

 

And adding anything is better than the other Avatars do for their games.

 

Jagen literally does that in Book 2 chapter 1. I am sure I could dig through the script for more, but the very first chapter of Mystery of the Emblem book 2 has Jagen stealing a clear moment of competency from Marth.

 

And it instead show Marth being this thing called a competent leader.

 

And that is more a problem with the new character (at least for those that don't intentionally suck at FE11 normal mode...) Faye Norne, not specifically with Kris...plus there are multiple entire school classes of characters that worship Byleth and Corrin isn't far behind with the worshipers, so only having one sounds far less awful...

 

Which makes it even worse when Marth is dragged down in quality for the sake of an avatar. Byleth and Corrin are accounted for far more in their respective worlds while Kris feels shoehorned in every possible way.

Go ahead and dig it, because he doesn't. Jagen stops Marth from acting too rash "betraying Archanea" since Lang had the advantage in that moment and held it over their heads. Only for Marth to shine and completely clown on Lang in an elegant respectful manner later on.

No it's not, it makes Marth look dumber despite handling things on his own before. Instead he clings onto Kris to solve his problems.

Naaahhh, Norne existed in FE11 with zero problems. It's purely on FE12 feeling the need to butcher her. Kris also gets a cast worshipping them, but Byleth and Corrin don't have the case of someone's entire character being to worship the avatar like Norne is unfortunately stuck as.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Considering Kris actively shafts the cast to make the writing more about them, yes they do. If you're so desperate to defend Kris that you make stuff up while dissing an entire cast, you're blinded. Kris making scenes like the retreat turn into praising Kris is fucking awful. Gaiden had less than Archanea and yet Gaiden was able to make a full likable cast out of these nobodies. Archanea absolutely deserved more than the complete shafting they had.

Celica is surrounded by far more people that know her identity and she accepts the circlet and role as a princess. Conrad already disclaimed his status as heir by trusting his sister to do it.

It's always a controversial thing with Conrad. Kris is Conrad's controversial story scenes but way worse since it makes a lot FE3's stuff turn into pure Kris praise. Even Conrad's scenes have the cast poking fun of him unlike that piece of garbage Kris.

Like I said, that would be the case if Mystery of the Emblem had an actual plot relevant cast to begin with (it doesn't, it has Jaegen telling everyone he's old and Came dumping exposition).

[Eltosian Kadath]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

 

Go ahead and dig it, because he doesn't. Jagen stops Marth from "betraying Archanea" since Lang had the advantage in that moment, only for Marth to shine and completely clown on Lang in an elegant respectful manner.

Jagen does. Check both the scripts, Jagen is giving the orders, and makes Marth look like an incompetent leader who can't even come up with something incredibly basic (and in character for Marth specifically) like I should try talking to the enemy leader that I personally know...

 

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

No it's not, it makes Marth look dumber despite handling things on his own before. Instead he clings onto Kris to solve his problems.

Read through the dialogue, Marth is in control of that conversation

Spoiler

Jagen:
Sire, to keep fighting like this is pointless. All we are accomplishing is buying Hardin more time.

Marth:
My thoughts exactly. If we continue like this, more blood will be spilt for naught. Chris, do you have any sort of plan?

Chris:
According to our information, the enemy's primary force is concentrated along the highway. I wonder if we can avoid that route, by passing through the mountains?

Jagen:
Hmph, we'd have to cross Adria Pass... But the steep mountains make it dangerous for an army of our size.

Chris:
That's true, and I fear the enemy may have prepared an ambush as well. Our bravery could be our undoing. But it is the fastest possible route. If we could just break through there, we'd be in walking distance of the palace.

Marth:
I am prepared for the danger. We managed to conquer the same perilous road that Anri walked. Compared to that... Jagen, Chris. We can overcome this challenge. Order the advance!

Jagen brings up some valid concerns, Marth specifically asks for a plan from his advisors to solve this issues, and he agrees with the advise, and is the one to give the orders to set the plan into motion. Marth is the one giving the orders and in control of that situation, and is willing to delegate, all signs of a good leader.

 

3 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Naaahhh, Norne existed in FE11 with zero problems. It's purely on FE12 feeling the need to butcher her.

The only way for Norne to exist in FE11 (outside of hacking her into the game) is to have too many characters die in the prologue of the easiest difficulty mode. Even in the unlikely event that you saw her, the only line she has in the entire game is her death quote:

“Heh… Oops…unnh…”

Even her character ending adds little to her utter lack of character:

The Volunteer – Norne

Her stint as a warrior over, Norne returned to her home in Altea and lived an unremarkable but happy life.

If FE12 butchered her its only that the made her an actual character that always existed in the game...

13 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Kris also gets a cast worshipping them, but Byleth and Corrin don't have the case of someone's entire character being to worship the avatar like Norne is unfortunately stuck as.

...few characters do "worship" Kris, who are you claiming does?

[Seazas]

25 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Like I said, that would be the case if Mystery of the Emblem had an actual plot relevant cast to begin with (it doesn't, it has Jaegen telling everyone he's old and Came dumping exposition).

Nobody was relevant in Gaiden unless your name was Alm and Celica. Echoes had way less and they made that work.

16 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Jagen does. Check both the scripts, Jagen is giving the orders, and makes Marth look like an incompetent leader who can't even come up with something incredibly basic (and in character for Marth specifically) like I should try talking to the enemy leader that I personally know...

 

Read through the dialogue, Marth is in control of that conversation

  Reveal hidden contents

Jagen:
Sire, to keep fighting like this is pointless. All we are accomplishing is buying Hardin more time.

Marth:
My thoughts exactly. If we continue like this, more blood will be spilt for naught. Chris, do you have any sort of plan?

Chris:
According to our information, the enemy's primary force is concentrated along the highway. I wonder if we can avoid that route, by passing through the mountains?

Jagen:
Hmph, we'd have to cross Adria Pass... But the steep mountains make it dangerous for an army of our size.

Chris:
That's true, and I fear the enemy may have prepared an ambush as well. Our bravery could be our undoing. But it is the fastest possible route. If we could just break through there, we'd be in walking distance of the palace.

Marth:
I am prepared for the danger. We managed to conquer the same perilous road that Anri walked. Compared to that... Jagen, Chris. We can overcome this challenge. Order the advance!

Jagen brings up some valid concerns, Marth specifically asks for a plan from his advisors to solve this issues, and he agrees with the advise, and is the one to give the orders to set the plan into motion. Marth is the one giving the orders and in control of that situation, and is willing to delegate, all signs of a good leader.

 

The only way for Norne to exist in FE11 (outside of hacking her into the game) is to have too many characters die in the prologue of the easiest difficulty mode. Even in the unlikely event that you saw her, the only line she has in the entire game is her death quote:

“Heh… Oops…unnh…”

Even her character ending adds little to her utter lack of character:

The Volunteer – Norne

Her stint as a warrior over, Norne returned to her home in Altea and lived an unremarkable but happy life.

If FE12 butchered her its only that the made her an actual character that always existed in the game...

...few characters do "worship" Kris, who are you claiming does?

No Marth does not look incompetent. Jagen is a war veteran and his advisor. However, Marth trusting everything in the hands of a nobody who isn't a war hero like Jagen was complete shit. Marth never does that and canonically ignores people he doesn't know personally (Tomas). He isn't upfront to people he cares for either, he tries to get Caeda off the battlefield out of love for her. Kris being so special that he's "Marth's other half" despite Marth barely spending time with Kris is AWFUL. Kris did not fit and was shoehorned to a ridiculous degree. You still didn't make a counterargument for how forced Kris was that they made Elice break character and downplay Marth (when she never did that, ever). 

Norne had potential and had a confirmed relation to Draug and Gordin. Having little character does not justify reducing a canon character to an avatar cheerleader. Many Gaiden characters had less than Norne and they still worked in Echoes, there is no excuse.

Yeah because Jagen and Marth totally didn't worship Kris. Kris gets a disproportionate amount of praise in general and gets a lot of bullshit in their favor. Like Michalis and Sirius' entire supports with Kris. Or Nagi's entire thing where she pretty much just praises Kris.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Celica is surrounded by far more people that know her identity and she accepts the circlet and role as a princess. Conrad already disclaimed his status as heir by trusting his sister to do it.

That's the thing, though - as a Princess. Celica receiving the Circlet doesn't make her Queen, or Ruler of Zofia. It's just her royal status being recognized. Conrad still has a claim (and arguably, a responsibility) to the throne. Which nobody seems to acknowledge, so the point is buried.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

How did a topic about avatars end up talking about Shadows of Valentia? And could someone please reply to what I said about Kris, Robin, Corrin and Byleth?

Wild tangent. I should probably quit, since Conrad's story role has no bearing on Kris's role in an entirely different game.

3 hours ago, vanguard333 said:

Is this really headcanon? I figured it was just something you were supposed to infer given, as you pointed out, the boost when the student is being trained in a subject that Byleth's higher-ranked in, especially since the other professors have no real-world combat experience and they teach their students just fine.

The headcanon is the methodology aspect. That the Professor is better at instructing in subjects, where their skill rank exceeds that of their student, is canon.

[Seazas]

Just now, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's the thing, though - as a Princess. Celica receiving the Circlet doesn't make her Queen, or Ruler of Zofia. It's just her royal status being recognized. Conrad still has a claim (and arguably, a responsibility) to the throne. Which nobody seems to acknowledge, so the point is buried.

Wild tangent. I should probably quit, since Conrad's story role has no bearing on Kris's role in an entirely different game.

The headcanon is the methodology aspect. That the Professor is better at instructing in subjects, where their skill rank exceeds that of their student, is canon.

Because Conrad doesn't take responsibility, he gives it to Celica since he's handing her the circlet than taking it himself. Alm was already proving to be a suitable leader around that point, acknowledged in game since all of the royal line was presumed to be dead. 

It definitely does, Conrad is controversial and an inclusion that doesn't feel natural for some people. Kris is that but worse since even Conrad stays out of 90% of the story.

[vanguard333]

1 minute ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Wild tangent. I should probably quit, since Conrad's story role has no bearing on Kris's role in an entirely different game.

The headcanon is the methodology aspect. That the Professor is better at instructing in subjects, where their skill rank exceeds that of their student, is canon.

Okay. Before you quit though, could you please look over what I said about Kris, Robin, Corrin and Byleth?

I see. That makes sense.

[Eltosian Kadath]

11 minutes ago, Seazas said:

No Marth does not look incompetent. Jagen is a war veteran and his advisor.

Yes, Marth does look incompetent there. Marth is also a war veteran, and Jagen is just commanding his lord (not advising, Jagen is giving out commands here, to Marth) like he doesn't understand the most basic politics or battle plans. Plus the whole battle plan sounds more like a plan Marth would make than Jagen.

 

Spoiler

Marth trusting everything in the hands of a nobody who isn't a war hero like Jagen was complete shit. Marth never does that and canonically ignores people he doesn't know personally (Tomas). Kris did not fit and was shoehorned to a ridiculous degree.

And New Mystery added a whole 8 chapter prologue where Kris proves themselves to be the most competent of the new recruits, and meet with Marth, and even then it takes something like 8-9 chapters after that before Marth knows and trust Kris well for him to be giving out advice.

 

5 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Like Michalis and Sirius' entire supports with Kris.

...let me just put a quote from the Michalis support here

Quote

Michalis:
I don't like you, just as I don't like Prince Marth.

In both of those supports they acknowledge that Kris is canonically supposed to be competent, but they aren't really worshiping him.

 

9 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Or Nagi's entire thing where she pretty much just praises Kris.

Perhaps it went over your head, but all Nagi was doing was recognizing (and acknowledging in universe) that Kris is an avatar for the player...

 

[Seazas]

43 minutes ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Yes, Marth does look incompetent there. Marth is also a war veteran, and Jagen is just commanding his lord (not advising, Jagen is giving out commands here, to Marth) like he doesn't understand the most basic politics or battle plans. Plus the whole battle plan sounds more like a plan Marth would make than Jagen.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Marth trusting everything in the hands of a nobody who isn't a war hero like Jagen was complete shit. Marth never does that and canonically ignores people he doesn't know personally (Tomas). Kris did not fit and was shoehorned to a ridiculous degree.

And New Mystery added a whole 8 chapter prologue where Kris proves themselves to be the most competent of the new recruits, and meet with Marth, and even then it takes something like 8-9 chapters after that before Marth knows and trust Kris well for him to be giving out advice.

 

...let me just put a quote from the Michalis support here

In both of those supports they acknowledge that Kris is canonically supposed to be competent, but they aren't really worshiping him.

 

Perhaps it went over your head, but all Nagi was doing was recognizing (and acknowledging in universe) that Kris is an avatar for the player...

 

Jagen was in an appropriate position to do as such, he's skilled and Marth is perfectly just to look to Jagen for advice or help sometimes. Jagen also says constantly that he looks to Marth to guide them all, Jagen stepping in when Marth was making a rash decision is fine.

And? Characters like Gordin and Draug dedicated a lot of effort and time for Archanea (they were there since the beginning) and you don't see Marth putting them on a pedestal. He treats people like Cain with an appropriate amount of respect but he doesn't declare anyone his "soulmate" like he did with Kris. That is literally just garbage writing to pander to the player. 

Michalis literally praises Kris constantly, when he's the same dude that shits on whoever regardless of capability (unless you're Maria). If Byleth and Corrin are going to get shit for being praised then Kris isn't an exception, it's hypocritical. Especially when characters like Leonie and Saizo do not worship Byleth/Corrin and yet it's conveniently ignored.

That's not a good excuse, it's praise and putting Kris on a pedestal all the same. Regardless of the reasoning that's a trash justification when Kris is treated as their own character anyway.

[Axie]

i think kris was competently added to the storyline and that marth is a better character for having kris with him in NM. tears?

the supports are mostly boring and pointless though.

[Seazas]

12 minutes ago, Axie said:

i think kris was competently added to the storyline and that marth is a better character for having kris with him in NM. tears?

the supports are mostly boring and pointless though.

Shadow Dragon Marth had a better arc and didn't randomly make strangers his soulmate nor get dissed by his own sister.

So that's just not true. Why try and bait like this though, come on 😞

Edited March 16, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Nobody was relevant in Gaiden unless your name was Alm and Celica. Echoes had way less and they made that work.

 

Yeah...Kris isn't in Shadows of Valentia. But how in the world is that anything resembling a valid point? Could New Mystery have been made without Kris? Sure, of all the games Mystery of the Emblem certainly needed something like an avatar and the assassin subplot to breed more life into it, but it could have been made without Kris. I think it's a pretty decision that they did add Kris though.

8 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

That's the thing, though - as a Princess. Celica receiving the Circlet doesn't make her Queen, or Ruler of Zofia. It's just her royal status being recognized. Conrad still has a claim (and arguably, a responsibility) to the throne. Which nobody seems to acknowledge, so the point is buried.

Wild tangent. I should probably quit, since Conrad's story role has no bearing on Kris's role in an entirely different game.

The headcanon is the methodology aspect. That the Professor is better at instructing in subjects, where their skill rank exceeds that of their student, is canon.

I think a seperate topic analysing Conrad's claim is warranted. It's an interesting topic but really has no bearing here.

EDIT: Made that topic.

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yeah...Kris isn't in Shadows of Valentia. But how in the world is that anything resembling a valid point? Could New Mystery have been made without Kris? Sure, of all the games Mystery of the Emblem certainly needed something like an avatar and the assassin subplot to breed more life into it, but it could have been made without Kris. I think it's a pretty decision that they did add Kris though.

I think a seperate topic analysing Conrad's claim is warranted. It's an interesting topic but really has no bearing here.

EDIT: Made that topic.

 

It's immensely stupid to say "wELL THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH CHARACTER ANYWAY SO THAT JUSTIFIES KRIS SHAFTING THEM" when Echoes made due with less. The logic is trash and doesn't take from my point that Kris is a bad inclusion that actively hogs the writing and wasn't necessary. 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

It's immensely stupid to say "wELL THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH CHARACTER ANYWAY SO THAT JUSTIFIES KRIS SHAFTING THEM" when Echoes made due with less. The logic is trash and doesn't take from my point that Kris is a bad inclusion that actively hogs the writing and wasn't necessary. 

No, the logic is that Kris didn't shaft them because  there was no one to shaft to begin with.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Stones]

40 minutes ago, Jotari said:

No, the logic is that Kris didn't shaft them because  there was no one to shaft to begin with.

The argument is that Echoes was in the same situation with Gaiden's characters, but rather than adding a new character and doing very little with the old characters like New Mystery did, it developed it's existing characters instead.

[Seazas]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

No, the logic is that Kris didn't shaft them because  there was no one to shaft to begin with.

And that logic isn't any less stupid because they do exist and have more of a personality than Gaiden's blank shells did. Kris was a forced inclusion and if you have to diss other characters to try and make Kris look good then your logic has fell flat.

[Jotari]

23 minutes ago, Stones said:

The argument is that Echoes was in the same situation with Gaiden's characters, but rather than adding a new character and doing very little with the old characters like New Mystery did, it developed it's existing characters instead.

Which is just as good a choice. But it isn't accurate to say Kris shafted them when they had no more relevance to begin with.

2 minutes ago, Seazas said:

And that logic isn't any less stupid because they do exist and have more of a personality than Gaiden's blank shells did. Kris was a forced inclusion and if you have to diss other characters to try and make Kris look good then your logic has fell flat.

Not dissing anyone. Gaiden and Old Mystery both had bare bones characterization. That's not an insult, it's just fact. It's not like the existence of Berkut shafted Rudolf.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Which is just as good a choice. But it isn't accurate to say Kris shafted them when they had no more relevance to begin with.

Not dissing anyone. Gaiden and Old Mystery both had bare bones characterization. That's not an insult, it's just fact. It's not like the existence of Berkut shafted Rudolf.

Yes it is accurate, Kris 100% shafted characters with loads of potential. FE3 gave them a semblance of personality and character that FE12 could've further focused on. Instead they pushed an avatar that does not fit well in the canon story. 

Also, you're literally dissing characters. Claiming that they have nothing despite having a place and position in the world as a deflection to defend Kris. Every single character was recruited at a point in the story and the majority had a tie in to the overall plot. Like Linde's significant thing with Gharnef or Ogma + Navarre's entire thing. FE3 gave its cast more than Gaiden's. 

[Jotari]

24 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Yes it is accurate, Kris 100% shafted characters with loads of potential. FE3 gave them a semblance of personality and character that FE12 could've further focused on. Instead they pushed an avatar that does not fit well in the canon story. 

Also, you're literally dissing characters. Claiming that they have nothing despite having a place and position in the world as a deflection to defend Kris. Every single character was recruited at a point in the story and the majority had a tie in to the overall plot. Like Linde's significant thing with Gharnef or Ogma + Navarre's entire thing. FE3 gave its cast more than Gaiden's. 

And all the characters in Old Mystery do exactly the same things in New Mystery. So none of them are shafted. It's not like Kris shoves Merric out of the way and has a complicated history with Arlen, Arlen and Merric still have their thing, Linde still shows up with the Fire Embelm, Abel still fights Marth because Est is threatened. None of them actually have their roles stolen, except for like a single line or two from Jagen. Do you want them to have more relevance? Well, yeah, sure, that'd be great. But it's not Kris's fault. New Mystery came out like two years after Shadow Dragon and the characters do just as little beyond their original appearance in that game as they do in New Mystery. So it's not the existence of Kris that means characters roles are reduced, it's just the way they chose to remake the games. If anything Kris gives more characterization opportities to a bunch of units by adding in a prologue and a bunch of Gaidens where they get to try out different clothing styles. You might as well blame Norne for Hardin being shafted in Shadow Dragon for all the sense it makes.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

22 minutes ago, Jotari said:

And all the characters in Old Mystery do exactly the same things in New Mystery. So none of them are shafted. It's not like Kris shoves Merric out of the way and has a complicated history with Arlen, Arlen and Merric still have their thing, Linde still shows up with the Fire Embelm, Abel still fights Marth because Est is threatened. None of them actually have their roles stolen, except for like a single line or two from Jagen. Do you want them to have more relevance? Well, yeah, sure, that'd be great. But it's not Kris's fault. New Mystery came out like two years after Shadow Dragon and the characters do just as little beyond their original appearance in that game as they do in New Mystery. So it's not the existence of Kris that means characters roles are reduced, it's just the way they chose to remake the games. If anything Kris gives more characterization opportities to a bunch of units by adding in a prologue and a bunch of Gaidens where they get to try out different clothing styles. You might as well blame Norne for Hardin being shafted in Shadow Dragon for all the sense it makes.

Not enough, the remake had every opportunity to further flesh out the cast and instead Kris dominates the dialogue. All while feeling forced in the game and having people like Elice break character purely to put Kris on a pedestal. Elice has always been one of the people praising Marth for his growth and competency, not putting him down as weak. It's trash writing.

Also that's not true, Marth received lots of character improvements, the dialogue was crisp in Shadow Dragon, and the prologue gave even more. Meanwhile... as you said, everything's the same in New Mystery. Not even Marth received a massive character boost. 

"Kris isn't at fault!" *Proceeds to try and credit Kris for something they didn't create* Kris didn't create the support system, you are acting ridiculous to make a claim like "Kris gave opportunities" when supports long existed.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

Jagen was in an appropriate position to do as such, he's skilled and Marth is perfectly just to look to Jagen for advice or help sometimes. Jagen also says constantly that he looks to Marth to guide them all, Jagen stepping in when Marth was making a rash decision is fine.

Marth was the leader of the War of Shadows, while Jagen had always been a knight whom simply followed orders. Jagen transforming into an advisor akin to the mysteriously absent Malledus off screen, while Marth reverts to a child like incompetence in no more egregious than Kris showing he is competent enough to be included in counsels of war part way into the game.

 

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

And? Characters like Gordin and Draug dedicated a lot of effort and time for Archanea (they were there since the beginning) and you don't see Marth putting them on a pedestal. He treats people like Cain with an appropriate amount of respect but he doesn't declare anyone his "soulmate" like he did with Kris. That is literally just garbage writing to pander to the player. 

Why would Marth listen to someone he don't really know, just like that Tomas character you emphasized earlier? The only way Draug has more than a cursory interaction with Marth is if Jagen is dead in Shadow Dragon (and even then it isn't much), and Gaggles gets even less (and most of it while gagged). Marth actually interacts with Kris, and more than a handful of times.

 

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

 

Michalis literally praises Kris constantly, when he's the same dude that shits on whoever regardless of capability (unless you're Maria). If Byleth and Corrin are going to get shit for being praised then Kris isn't an exception, it's hypocritical. Especially when characters like Leonie and Saizo do not worship Byleth/Corrin and yet it's conveniently ignored.

That's not a good excuse, it's praise and putting Kris on a pedestal all the same. Regardless of the reasoning that's a trash justification when Kris is treated as their own character anyway.

You should try paying attention to the DS Archanea games' stories when you play them, you might notice that Michalis doesn't "shits on whoever regardless of capability (unless you're Maria)". One of the first and most major interactions we see from him is him being respectful to Gotoh due to his capabilities, and most of his shit talking is well deserved by those that get it. He insults Minerva for her naiveté, for she is naive, he insults many as traitors, when they are, and if he insults Marth its only for his youth (although how insulting Whelp is, is debatable).

 

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Shadow Dragon Marth had a better arc and didn't randomly make strangers his soulmate nor get dissed by his own sister.

So that's just not true. Why try and bait like this though, come on 😞

At least try and understand Marth's arc in New Mystery before failing to dunk on it (or are you just trying to bait like that). You might dismiss his sister's so called dis, but she is hitting on a key aspect of Marth's arc, that he has placed upon himself an impossible burden that no one could possibly live up to, while everyone else is isolating him on the pedestal of Hero. Marth is his harshest critic, if someone falls in battle he feels the loss all the more due to the responsibilities of leadership; and when men call him hero king he think not about his own accomplishments, but those of his friends who made him a hero. Elice cares about her brother, and when she tells Kris about this weakness she is trying to make Kris into someone that can look past the title of hero, and could become a friend to Marth. In the end they do become close friends, as Kris helps Marth in way he never knew he needed, and in the end helps him to accept that when people call him Hero King, it was never about who Marth was, or what Marth did, or even what other did, but about what his people needed.

 

55 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Yes it is accurate, Kris 100% shafted characters with loads of potential. FE3 gave them a semblance of personality and character that FE12 could've further focused on. Instead they pushed an avatar that does not fit well in the canon story. 

We already saw what an Archanea game without Kris was like, it was Shadow Dragon, where most were lucky to have a single line and all that potential was utterly wasted. Kris gave all the minor characters at least a small chance to be seen, a chance for that potential to shine, which is a lot more than they had before Kris entered the picture. You like pointing at FE15 as how it should have been handled, but Gaiden's cast is much smaller, and when FE15 came out they had better technology and a larger budget to work with. Having Kris as the easy fall back to give characters someone to support off of let them create approximately 4 time the number of support chains than Echoes had for the Archanea cast to work with. Kris didn't shaft the cast of FE12, nor squandered their potential, but the lack of a Kris sure did in FE11.

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

Not enough, the remake had every opportunity to further flesh out the cast and instead Kris dominates the dialogue. All while feeling forced in the game and having people like Elice break character purely to put Kris on a pedestal.

Then why didn't FE11 flesh out the cast? There was no Kris to "dominate the dialogue" when that game was made, and Elice is entirely in character when she trys to help her brother in ways he wouldn't want her to.

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

 

Also that's not true, Marth received lots of character improvements, the dialogue was crisp in Shadow Dragon, and the prologue gave even more. Meanwhile... as you said, everything's the same in New Mystery. Not even Marth received a massive character boost. 

You are looking at that game through rose colored glasses. For every moment of excellent writing like chapter 17

Spoiler

 

(End Chapter)

Nyna:
“Marth! Any word? Have you found your family? Your sister?”

Marth:
“…My sister was taken by Gharnef. She is no longer here… And my…my mother is… She is dead. Slain…by that Dolunian dragon…”

Nyna:
“….! Marth, I am truly sorry…”

Marth:
“I thought there would be something…some part of my old life I would be coming back to. I fought so hard…”

Nyna:
“You fought wonderfully, Marth.”

(Enter Malledus)

Malledus:
“…Sire, might I have a moment?”

Marth:
“All the moments you want, Malledus. What is it?”

Malledus:
“Your people have gathered outside the castle. They are overjoyed to be free again, sire, and would like very much to see their prince.”

Marth:
“All right, then. I’ll go at once.”

Nyna:
“Marth…perhaps you should let that wait, just until you are able to share their joy with them. We could send someone in your stead-“

Marth:
“No, that would not do. Today is a momentous day for my kingdom and my people. I must celebrate with them now, not later. Anything else would be a disservice to those who died to save Altea. I am a prince before I am a son or a brother. Come, Malledus. Let us go greet my people.”

(Switches to a scene with Marth waving to crowd. Dialogue runs from a narrator on the top)

“Thus Altea was liberated. Its people, ragged from years of Dolunian tyranny, scrambled to the castle and flocked beneath its walls, eager to celebrate what, for many, would be remembered as the happiest days of their lives. They clapped each other on the back, laughed; and when Marth, their prince, appeared up above, they saluted their hero with a thunderous cheer:
“Glory to Marth, our prince of light! Glory to our star and savior!”
Marth smiled down at his people and waved. The great commander’s last victory of the day was commanding his tears not to flow.”

there are numerous (I put the first 5 examples I could find below, but I could keep going if I wanted to...) where someone talks to utterly silent and unmoving face of Marth

Spoiler

Chapter1:

Quote

(Chapter End)

Talys King:
“Ah, Prince Marth! You have saved us in our hour of need. Please accept my thanks. Lad, I believe you are ready. If you wish to seek out allies in Aurelis, I will give you what soldiers I can to see you arrive there safely. Captain Ogma is a fine swordsman, brave and true. I know he and his fighters will serve you well. Another thing…During your travels, you are certain to meet many who despise Doluna. Some may be hiding in villages; other may have been captured or forced to fight against their will or better judgment. It falls upon you to find these individuals and win them over your cause. Understood, lad? Then go! The time has come! Be patient, steady, strong: I know you will do great things.”

Chapter 2:

Quote

 

(Chapter End)

Villager:
“You have our gratitude, sire, for finally chasin’ those pirates away. Now, as I hear it, you plan to march on to Aurelis…That’ll take you right up through the Ghoul’s Teeth. With all due respect, sire, you’re taking a great risk crossin’ those mountains that’s Soothsire territory. The Soothsires are fearsome bandits, always raidin’ the villages and harryin’ what travelers dare pass by. And the swordsman with ’em- goes by the name o’ Nabarl- he’s a terror with a blade, so they say. If you go up there, keep your wits about you- or you won’t come back down.”

Chapter 3:

Quote

(Chapter End)

Malledus:
“Sire! Would you look at this! Those rogues left 15,000 gold here when they fled! This money will buy plenty of new equipment for your army. Tomorrow is the day, sire, when we finally arrive in Aurelis. Be sure to rest up tonight.”

Chapter 4:

Quote

(Chapter End)

Elder:
“Prince Marth, you have our thanks for liberating the south castle. You’ll find Captain Hardin protecting the king and the lady Nyna at the Northern Fortress, located in Aurelis. When you find him, please be sure to give him this silver sword.”

(Obtained Silver Sword)

Chapter 5:

Quote

(Chapter End)

Aurelis King:
“Prince Marth, your arrival could not have been better timed. Please accept our gratitude. Princess Nyna of Akaneia is en route from the fortress. I am sure she will wish to meet you. The battle is not won yet, though: many of the enemy continue to hold out within the castle’s halls. Stay wary.”

 

and acting like the prologue of Shadow Dragon was important is a joke, if it was it would have been available on every difficulty like New Mystery's prologue was, instead of just the easiest.

 

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Not enough, the remake had every opportunity to further flesh out the cast and instead Kris dominates the dialogue. All while feeling forced in the game and having people like Elice break character purely to put Kris on a pedestal. Elice has always been one of the people praising Marth for his growth and competency, not putting him down as weak. It's trash writing.

Shadow Dragon had every opportunity to further flesh out the cast (and far more motivation to on Hardin's part), yet didn't. So it's irrational to blame that on Kris when the direct predecessor does the same thing.

Quote

Also that's not true, Marth received lots of character improvements, the dialogue was crisp in Shadow Dragon, and the prologue gave even more. Meanwhile... as you said, everything's the same in New Mystery. Not even Marth received a massive character boost. 

Sure. What about every other character?

Quote

"Kris isn't at fault!" *Proceeds to try and credit Kris for something they didn't create* Kris didn't create the support system, you are acting ridiculous to make a claim like "Kris gave opportunities" when supports long existed.

Take a look at my comment again, I never mentioned the supports at all. I mentioned the Kris focused Gaidens and prologues (ie the assassination sub plot).

Edited March 17, 2021 by Jotari

[Seazas]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Shadow Dragon had every opportunity to further flesh out the cast (and far more motivation to on Hardin's part), yet didn't. So it's irrational to blame that on Kris when the direct predecessor does the same thing.

Sure. What about every other character?

Take a look at my comment again, I never mentioned the supports at all. I mentioned the Kris focused Gaidens and prologues (ie the assassination sub plot).

They don't actively make the story worse like what Kris does to FE12. It's complete nonsense and nothing but avatar pandering to put Kris on a pedestal as much as he did.

The charming dialogue of Shadow Dragon gave some more things to the characters, at least more than what they had in the original.

And the Gaidens focus on Kris, as I said, Kris steals the spotlight that could've went to other characters.

11 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Marth was the leader of the War of Shadows, while Jagen had always been a knight whom simply followed orders. Jagen transforming into an advisor akin to the mysteriously absent Malledus off screen, while Marth reverts to a child like incompetence in no more egregious than Kris showing he is competent enough to be included in counsels of war part way into the game.

 

Why would Marth listen to someone he don't really know, just like that Tomas character you emphasized earlier? The only way Draug has more than a cursory interaction with Marth is if Jagen is dead in Shadow Dragon (and even then it isn't much), and Gaggles gets even less (and most of it while gagged). Marth actually interacts with Kris, and more than a handful of times.

 

You should try paying attention to the DS Archanea games' stories when you play them, you might notice that Michalis doesn't "shits on whoever regardless of capability (unless you're Maria)". One of the first and most major interactions we see from him is him being respectful to Gotoh due to his capabilities, and most of his shit talking is well deserved by those that get it. He insults Minerva for her naiveté, for she is naive, he insults many as traitors, when they are, and if he insults Marth its only for his youth (although how insulting Whelp is, is debatable).

 

At least try and understand Marth's arc in New Mystery before failing to dunk on it (or are you just trying to bait like that). You might dismiss his sister's so called dis, but she is hitting on a key aspect of Marth's arc, that he has placed upon himself an impossible burden that no one could possibly live up to, while everyone else is isolating him on the pedestal of Hero. Marth is his harshest critic, if someone falls in battle he feels the loss all the more due to the responsibilities of leadership; and when men call him hero king he think not about his own accomplishments, but those of his friends who made him a hero. Elice cares about her brother, and when she tells Kris about this weakness she is trying to make Kris into someone that can look past the title of hero, and could become a friend to Marth. In the end they do become close friends, as Kris helps Marth in way he never knew he needed, and in the end helps him to accept that when people call him Hero King, it was never about who Marth was, or what Marth did, or even what other did, but about what his people needed.

 

We already saw what an Archanea game without Kris was like, it was Shadow Dragon, where most were lucky to have a single line and all that potential was utterly wasted. Kris gave all the minor characters at least a small chance to be seen, a chance for that potential to shine, which is a lot more than they had before Kris entered the picture. You like pointing at FE15 as how it should have been handled, but Gaiden's cast is much smaller, and when FE15 came out they had better technology and a larger budget to work with. Having Kris as the easy fall back to give characters someone to support off of let them create approximately 4 time the number of support chains than Echoes had for the Archanea cast to work with. Kris didn't shaft the cast of FE12, nor squandered their potential, but the lack of a Kris sure did in FE11.

 

Then why didn't FE11 flesh out the cast? There was no Kris to "dominate the dialogue" when that game was made, and Elice is entirely in character when she trys to help her brother in ways he wouldn't want her to.

 

You are looking at that game through rose colored glasses. For every moment of excellent writing like chapter 17

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(End Chapter)

Nyna:
“Marth! Any word? Have you found your family? Your sister?”

Marth:
“…My sister was taken by Gharnef. She is no longer here… And my…my mother is… She is dead. Slain…by that Dolunian dragon…”

Nyna:
“….! Marth, I am truly sorry…”

Marth:
“I thought there would be something…some part of my old life I would be coming back to. I fought so hard…”

Nyna:
“You fought wonderfully, Marth.”

(Enter Malledus)

Malledus:
“…Sire, might I have a moment?”

Marth:
“All the moments you want, Malledus. What is it?”

Malledus:
“Your people have gathered outside the castle. They are overjoyed to be free again, sire, and would like very much to see their prince.”

Marth:
“All right, then. I’ll go at once.”

Nyna:
“Marth…perhaps you should let that wait, just until you are able to share their joy with them. We could send someone in your stead-“

Marth:
“No, that would not do. Today is a momentous day for my kingdom and my people. I must celebrate with them now, not later. Anything else would be a disservice to those who died to save Altea. I am a prince before I am a son or a brother. Come, Malledus. Let us go greet my people.”

(Switches to a scene with Marth waving to crowd. Dialogue runs from a narrator on the top)

“Thus Altea was liberated. Its people, ragged from years of Dolunian tyranny, scrambled to the castle and flocked beneath its walls, eager to celebrate what, for many, would be remembered as the happiest days of their lives. They clapped each other on the back, laughed; and when Marth, their prince, appeared up above, they saluted their hero with a thunderous cheer:
“Glory to Marth, our prince of light! Glory to our star and savior!”
Marth smiled down at his people and waved. The great commander’s last victory of the day was commanding his tears not to flow.”

there are numerous (I put the first 5 examples I could find below, but I could keep going if I wanted to...) where someone talks to utterly silent and unmoving face of Marth

  Reveal hidden contents

Chapter1:

Chapter 2:

Chapter 3:

Chapter 4:

Chapter 5:

 

and acting like the prologue of Shadow Dragon was important is a joke, if it was it would have been available on every difficulty like New Mystery's prologue was, instead of just the easiest.

 

FE3 still showcases Marth's capability, and he relied on Jagen for advice more than anyone in all Archanea games. So it makes sense, better than some random nobody forced in FE12 for the sake of it.

"Elice was in character" nope, even Heroes had her acknowledge Marth's growth and never call him weak. She always showed extensive faith in Marth and whenever Marth may have been in over his head, Elice says as such to her BROTHER and brother alone without calling him weak, never does she say shit like that to a random stranger whom she doesn't know like she does her brother. FE12 had her break character to put Kris on a pedestal.

Stop crediting Kris for the support system, THAT is a complete and utter joke. The devs were going to add supports with or without Kris since it was a commonly criticized thing in Shadow Dragon. FE11 tried too hard to focus on the classic with minimal growth, which is what they improve upon. They were going to add the support system and trying to credit Kris for a concept that existed long before FE12 shows your blinded behavior. There's plenty of supports with FE12 that don't involve Kris, proving that Kris was not needed to flesh out the cast. Binding Blade and Blazing Blade gave every character at least 4 supports each. Trying to credit Kris for shit they don't do nor is exclusive toward is insane. Even lords like Marth were used as a springboard for more side cast dialogue (it's the source of many characters' only piece of dialogue in original games). Kris was not needed and never was.

"Excellent writing" it was better in FE3 where it showcased Marth's capability of tactics than having Kris do it for him. It's trash. Even worse when Marth makes a nobody his "other half" purely because they're an avatar. If you're going to whine about "leader Marth letting others like Jagen guide him" then it's even worse that Marth's competent moments has Kris shoved into them when Marth spent 10x less time with Kris than he has with Jagen, who's words have proven reliability. Kris is put on a pedestal because they're a player character and it's really fucking bad. Like changing an entire retreat scene against Hardin to highlight Kris and Kris alone. "With Kris here EVERYONE can escape!" Awful. It's not even consistent since Marth never acted as dependent as he was with Kris, not even with Jagen. Last time I checked, Marth never called Jagen his soulmate and has made independent decisions without Jagen. Meanwhile in FE12, Marth always turns to Kris for approval or help because apparently Marth's not allowed to function without the avatar character.

Edited March 18, 2021 by Seazas

[Eltosian Kadath]

22 minutes ago, Seazas said:

FE3 still showcases Marth's capability, and he relied on Jagen for advice more than anyone in all Archanea games. So it makes sense, better than some random nobody forced in FE12 for the sake of it.

And FE3 Jagen was blatantly shafting Malledus when he arbitrarily usurped the advisor role in FE3. Why is it fine for some nobody like Jagen to steal the advisor role, when it isn't for Kris?

 

25 minutes ago, Seazas said:

 

"Elice was in character" nope, even Heroes had her acknowledge Marth's growth and never call him weak. FE12 had her break character to put Kris on a pedestal.

And  as it said in that conversation, all of that growth was thanks to Marth's friends...FEH is showing a post FE12 Marth and Elice, where he has overcome that weakness thanks to his friends. Plus immediately after that line she utterly embarrasses Marth by forcing him to shop for feminine gifts for Caeda when he doesn't feel comfortable doing so. Elice was entirely in character, as even in that conversation she shows she will embarrass Marth if its for his own benefit.

 

54 minutes ago, Seazas said:

There's plenty of supports with FE12 that don't involve Kris, proving that Kris was not needed to flesh out the cast.

And they literally made more of those than they did supports in Echoes, and 1/3 (closer to 3/8th really..) of the cast would still be getting nothing (and needless to say those are already spread thinner than Echoe's supports thanks to the massive cast).

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

 

Stop crediting Kris for the support system, THAT is a complete and utter joke. The devs were going to add supports with or without Kris since it was a commonly criticized thing in Shadow Dragon. FE11 tried too hard to focus on the classic with minimal growth, which is what they improve upon. They were going to add the support system and trying to credit Kris for a concept that existed long before FE12 shows your blinded behavior. 

You might not like it, but Kris is a useful narrative device for fleshing out characters with supports, especially when they have to create supports for such a large cast, and with the smaller budget of a remake. Kris's blandness even help keep them from overshadowing the characters those supports are for...

 

58 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Even worse when Marth makes a nobody his "other half" purely because they're an avatar.

And that is no worse than any of the other avatars on this list. Kris is simply doing the same sort of thing all the other avatars do in warping the story around them, and they get more flak for it than they deserve.

 

1 hour ago, Seazas said:

 

"Excellent writing" it was better in FE3 where it showcased Marth's capability of tactics than having Kris do it for him. It's trash. Even worse when Marth makes a nobody his "other half" purely because they're an avatar.

You might want to try reading more carefully before commenting next time, as I was critiquing the writing of Shadow Dragon, not commenting on New Mystery's.