Conrad's claim to the Throne

[Kalken]

Honestly, the whole issue would've been avoided if they made Conrad the YOUNGer brother (if only by a year) and established succession law in Zofia does not discriminate against women. He wouldn't be king since he had a lesser claim than Celica.

Of course I'm sure that they threw in Conrad to begin with to cash in on Lucina from Awakening (secret mask wearing family of lord except brother instead of daughter).

[Seazas]

10 hours ago, Jotari said:

Having her ask Conrad to take care of Zofia when she's about to sacrifice herself to Duma (and have Conrad respond by clearly saying he doesn't want to be king along with the whole you promised not to throw your life away line) would have been nice too. Not like she really expects to end up as queen at that moment.

Okay, guess I'll just quote myself again.

 

 

 

He didn't do it because Halcyon said so, Conrad did it because he had faith in Celica. To the point he said that no one, not even Mila, can save the world except for the princess. He did the coronation, gave Celica her crown and stuck by her side purely to fight not ascend to the throne with her.

[Kalken]

He brought nothing to the plot besides making Celica look even more incapable. That's what happens when you have to force in an Awakening allusion.

[Seazas]

44 minutes ago, Kalken said:

He brought nothing to the plot besides making Celica look even more incapable. That's what happens when you have to force in an Awakening allusion.

Conrad gave more of a purpose to Halcyon and added more to Celica's past. He's not a perfect inclusion but he does in fact add to the story. "Look even more incapable" guess the circlet scene doesn't exist when Conrad's the one saying that Celica is their hope of Valentia, not Mila nor anyone else. He hypes her up a lot in canon.

[Jotari]

On 3/19/2021 at 7:56 PM, Seazas said:

He didn't do it because Halcyon said so, Conrad did it because he had faith in Celica. To the point he said that no one, not even Mila, can save the world except for the princess. He did the coronation, gave Celica her crown and stuck by her side purely to fight not ascend to the throne with her.

Okay, then why does he feel this way about someone he hasn't met since he was a child above and beyond his ability to believe in his own capabilities?

9 hours ago, Kalken said:

He brought nothing to the plot besides making Celica look even more incapable. That's what happens when you have to force in an Awakening allusion.

Awakening allusion? Ah, I guess Masked Lucina. Actually I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread, so I shouldn't be too surprised. Though personally I always saw more Sirius parallels than Lucina Parallels, given the class and the fact that they're in the same continuity (and apparently Conrad gave Zeke his mask).

[Seazas]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Okay, then why does he feel this way about someone he hasn't met since he was a child above and beyond his ability to believe in his own capabilities?

Awakening allusion? Ah, I guess Masked Lucina. Actually I think someone mentioned earlier in the thread, so I shouldn't be too surprised. Though personally I always saw more Sirius parallels than Lucina Parallels, given the class and the fact that they're in the same continuity (and apparently Conrad gave Zeke his mask).

Because Celica is family and the only one back in that Vila to be nice to Conrad? Regardless it's irrelevant to my point, Conrad still placed a lot of faith in Celica which is why he does what he does.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Because Celica is family and the only one back in that Vila to be nice to Conrad? Regardless it's irrelevant to my point, Conrad still placed a lot of faith in Celica which is why he does what he does.

Yes, but why place faith in Celica above and beyond his own capabilities to lead as king of the nation? Which he has more entitlement and responsibility to than Celica. Answering this is very much relevant to your point, as it's the point of the whole thread. That being the fact that the game never answers this question, nor even addresses it in the slightest.

[Acacia Sgt]

The prophesy? Very likely Halcyon told him.

[Jotari]

6 minutes ago, Acacia Sgt said:

The prophesy? Very likely Halcyon told him.

Well like I said, it's a good headcanon explanation, but the game never actually provides that explanation at all. Halcyon and Conrad never even speak to each other (on screen). Which is a major shame.

[Seazas]

9 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, but why place faith in Celica above and beyond his own capabilities to lead as king of the nation? Which he has more entitlement and responsibility to than Celica. Answering this is very much relevant to your point, as it's the point of the whole thread. That being the fact that the game never answers this question, nor even addresses it in the slightest.

 Because his character is written this way to choose to rely on Celica, it literally doesn't matter. Conrad chose to have faith in Celica, that is why he's never really contested with the throne, which makes sense as Conrad already did a coronation with Celica and placed everything on her shoulders. The brand is shown in Echoes' new timeline to be significantly important for Valentia and its culture as well. Alm and Celica get priority by default.

You randomly shifting from "why did no one ask Conrad" to "why did Conrad act his character and rely on Celica!?" is an inherent shift of goalposts. Stop being bent out of shape over something as miniscule as this. The game has no reason to place detail on it, Conrad isn't that important nor does he need to be as this story is about Alm and Celica and their unique struggles. Not Alm, Celica + random Conrad and forced throne subplot when in canon that's not important. The gods and the entire war took priority. The game consistently put importance on that, not the throne nor Conrad, that is what the game chose to focus on and did a good job at it. They shouldn't detract from it to force an artificially inflated importance on lesser things. Things that make zero fucking sense to focus on as the throne is 100% less important than the ongoing battle and the state of Valentia without gods.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Seazas

[Ottservia]

I will agree that this complaint is a minor nitpick all things considered. Like what’s one minor world building inconsistency in the grand scheme of things. Shit like this is not the end of the world. Authors aren’t perfect they’re gonna make mistakes. You can find a plot hole in anything if you look hard enough. That said, I still think Conrad was a mistake because of how he saves Celica more often than not which makes her look dumber than she is. I doubt it was intentional but the implications of a dude telling her not to do something only for her to do it anyway and have to get saved by said man is not the best look. I mean Celica already has to rely on Alm for everything. You’re just rubbing salt in a wound in how she’s stupid and needs a guy to come save her at every second. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Ottservia

[Seazas]

39 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I will agree that this complaint is a minor nitpick all things considered. Like what’s one minor world building inconsistency in the grand scheme of things. Shit like this is not the end of the world. Authors aren’t perfect they’re gonna make mistakes. You can find a plot hole in anything if you look hard enough. That said, I still think Conrad was a mistake because of how he saves Celica more often than not which makes her look dumber than she is. I doubt it was intentional but the implications of a dude telling her not to do something only for her to do it anyway and have to get saved by said man is not the best look. I mean Celica already has to rely on Alm for everything. You’re just rubbing salt in a wound in how she’s stupid and needs a guy to come save her at every second. 

She doesn't have to rely on Alm for everything, she took down a significant entire pirate organization without him and handled a LOT of Duma Faithful's threats. Imagine in the final battle we also had to deal with the cantors that summoned necrodragons and gargoyles? Thank Celica for taking those people down lmao.

It's not like Alm doesn't depend on Celica for some things, the game puts him in a spot that would've caused his death if Celica didn't help.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Seazas

[Ottservia]

1 minute ago, Seazas said:

She doesn't have to rely on Alm for everything, she took down a significant entire pirate organization without him and handled a LOT of Duma Faithful's threats. Imagine in the final battle we also had to deal with the cantors that summoned necrodragons and gargoyles? Thank Celica for taking those people down lmao.

It's not like Alm doesn't depend on Celica for some things, the game puts him in a spot that would've caused his death if Celica didn't help.

Yeah but it’s not like he ever considers her perspective on things or anything(which is supposed to be the entire point of their relationship). The issue is that Alm is never wrong but Celica is constantly wrong. It should be that they’re both right and wrong in certain ways and need each other to consider different perspectives. That’s what the story tries to do but it’s not very good at showing that

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

2 hours ago, Seazas said:

Because his character is written this way to choose to rely on Celica, it literally doesn't matter. Conrad chose to have faith in Celica, that is why he's never really contested with the throne, which makes sense as Conrad already did a coronation with Celica and placed everything on her shoulders. The brand is shown in Echoes' new timeline to be significantly important for Valentia and its culture as well. Alm and Celica get priority by default.

Yeah, but why is Conrad written that way? He's hardly reliant on Celica at first - rather, he's the one saving her. He has enough confidence in his abilities to advise Celica, then save her when he doesn't take his advice, and then show up out of nowhere with Liprica's Circlet. He clearly has confidence in himself, and if anything, the game repeatedly gives him cause to question Celica's judgement. If he had faith in Celica, why did he intervene to save her? Surely, she wouldn't have taken that super dangerous path he warned her about.

My point is, rather than adhering to a consistent characterization or arc, Conrad just shows up and does whatever the story demands of him. He's simultaneously competent and confident, but also never once considers - nor is ever considered for - the throne, despite it being, by all outside appearances, his right and duty by birth. It's because Conrad was clumsily inserted into a story where he didn't exist previously. 

[Seazas]

11 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Yeah, but why is Conrad written that way? He's hardly reliant on Celica at first - rather, he's the one saving her. He has enough confidence in his abilities to advise Celica, then save her when he doesn't take his advice, and then show up out of nowhere with Liprica's Circlet. He clearly has confidence in himself, and if anything, the game repeatedly gives him cause to question Celica's judgement. If he had faith in Celica, why did he intervene to save her? Surely, she wouldn't have taken that super dangerous path he warned her about.

My point is, rather than adhering to a consistent characterization or arc, Conrad just shows up and does whatever the story demands of him. He's simultaneously competent and confident, but also never once considers - nor is ever considered for - the throne, despite it being, by all outside appearances, his right and duty by birth. It's because Conrad was clumsily inserted into a story where he didn't exist previously. 

Simple, because the writers wanted to write Conrad to be fond of Celica. Nothing more, nothing else. Conrad saving her than leaving Celica to handle everything and constantly making a big deal out of her decisions only reaffirm how much he cares for her. How much hope and value he places into her life, that he can't afford to lose Celica. He can have faith while wanting to keep her safe.

Conrad has faith in Celica to save them, he wouldn't say that Celica is their hope if he had no ounce of faith in Celica to rule over them. Doesn't mean he has to be blind to everything, there's different nuances in faith. He's absolutely a consistent character, everything he's done lines up to his immense care and hope for Celica to guide them to a better future. It's why Conrad doesn't lead anything while Celica does, it's why he consistently acts for Celica to survive even if it means voicing a differing opinion. Him believing Celica can save them doesn't mean one has to believe everything she does is perfect, that's absurd.

20 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Yeah but it’s not like he ever considers her perspective on things or anything(which is supposed to be the entire point of their relationship). The issue is that Alm is never wrong but Celica is constantly wrong. It should be that they’re both right and wrong in certain ways and need each other to consider different perspectives. That’s what the story tries to do but it’s not very good at showing that

That's headcanon. The story never placed Alm and Celica's relationship for the themes to "consider each other's perspective". Their relationship is purely a relationship with aspects of representing Duma and Mila to some degree. That's all there ever was since Gaiden and the fandom decided to snowball things and assume way too much. 

Even then, Alm still places value in Celica and her view all the same and Celica was still correct in some aspects. To say she's entirely wrong is objectively incorrect since the Gods is the entire reason Valentia still survives and why they defeat the Faithful to begin with. The gods are still praised in Awakening's Valm. She was also right about Rudolf not being a dastardly man, something Alm is kicking himself about.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, Seazas said:

 Because his character is written this way to choose to rely on Celica, it literally doesn't matter. Conrad chose to have faith in Celica, that is why he's never really contested with the throne, which makes sense as Conrad already did a coronation with Celica and placed everything on her shoulders. The brand is shown in Echoes' new timeline to be significantly important for Valentia and its culture as well. Alm and Celica get priority by default.

You randomly shifting from "why did no one ask Conrad" to "why did Conrad act his character and rely on Celica!?" is an inherent shift of goalposts. Stop being bent out of shape over something as miniscule as this. The game has no reason to place detail on it, Conrad isn't that important nor does he need to be as this story is about Alm and Celica and their unique struggles. Not Alm, Celica + random Conrad and forced throne subplot when in canon that's not important. The gods and the entire war took priority. The game consistently put importance on that, not the throne nor Conrad, that is what the game chose to focus on and did a good job at it. They shouldn't detract from it to force an artificially inflated importance on lesser things. Things that make zero fucking sense to focus on as the throne is 100% less important than the ongoing battle and the state of Valentia without gods.

It's not a shift of the goalposts because it's part of the overall issue of the fact that the game never actually addresses this point. If Conrad was the younger sibling or a bastard or there was some kind of established female primogenitary in Zofia it wouldn't be much of an issue, but as things stand Conrad is literally the rightful heir to Zofia and the game is offering no explantion as to why he's abandoning his kingdom in favor of his younger sister and your response is basically "characters don't require a reason for their actions".

51 minutes ago, Seazas said:

She doesn't have to rely on Alm for everything, she took down a significant entire pirate organization without him and handled a LOT of Duma Faithful's threats. Imagine in the final battle we also had to deal with the cantors that summoned necrodragons and gargoyles? Thank Celica for taking those people down lmao.

It's not like Alm doesn't depend on Celica for some things, the game puts him in a spot that would've caused his death if Celica didn't help.

Course it actually was Conrad who took down the Necro Dragon summoning cantor...

Edited March 21, 2021 by Jotari

[Ottservia]

53 minutes ago, Seazas said:

That's headcanon. The story never placed Alm and Celica's relationship for the themes to "consider each other's perspective". Their relationship is purely a relationship with aspects of representing Duma and Mila to some degree. That's all there ever was since Gaiden and the fandom decided to snowball things and assume way too much. 

Even then, Alm still places value in Celica and her view all the same and Celica was still correct in some aspects. To say she's entirely wrong is objectively incorrect since the Gods is the entire reason Valentia still survives and why they defeat the Faithful to begin with. The gods are still praised in Awakening's Valm. She was also right about Rudolf not being a dastardly man, something Alm is kicking himself about.

I mean if it was headcanon then why does Duma outright say that at the end of the story. They’re supposed to represent Duma and Mila in that alone they’re ideals will lead to ruin but when those ideals are put together then that’s when a kingdom will truly prosper. Alm and Celica’s relationship are supposed to reflect that. The story isn’t exactly subtle about that. The problem is that don’t show that very well because Alm is not a good representation of Duma’s ideals at all. He’s more representative mila if nothing else and that’s what Celica is supposed. It isn’t so much they’re right or wrong from our moral perspective but rather a narrative one and to that notion Alm is never wrong. Or at the very least the narrative never considers him wrong.

[Seazas]

38 minutes ago, Jotari said:

It's not a shift of the goalposts because it's part of the overall issue of the fact that the game never actually addresses this point. If Conrad was the younger sibling or a bastard or there was some kind of established female primogenitary in Zofia it wouldn't be much of an issue, but as things stand Conrad is literally the rightful heir to Zofia and the game is offering no explantion as to why he's abandoning his kingdom in favor of his younger sister and your response is basically "characters don't require a reason for their actions".

Course it actually was Conrad who took down the Necro Dragon summoning cantor...

Conrad already has a reason. He makes his faith clear in Celica and finds her fit to be ruler. Simple as that, you're trying to make a big deal out of nothing, he long ditched "being the rightful heir" when he hid his identity and did the coronation with Celica. 

Celica and co did the heavy lifting with Conrad doing a backstab but okay. Conrad did not solo his necrodragons.

12 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I mean if it was headcanon then why does Duma outright say that at the end of the story. They’re supposed to represent Duma and Mila in that alone they’re ideals will lead to ruin but when those ideals are put together then that’s when a kingdom will truly prosper. Alm and Celica’s relationship are supposed to reflect that. The story isn’t exactly subtle about that. The problem is that don’t show that very well because Alm is not a good representation of Duma’s ideals at all. He’s more representative mila if nothing else and that’s what Celica is supposed. It isn’t so much they’re right or wrong from our moral perspective but rather a narrative one and to that notion Alm is never wrong. Or at the very least the narrative never considers him wrong.

The only thing Duma says is not to repeat their mistakes, Alm has Duma's strength and Celica has Mila's love. It's entirely assumption from there on out.

"Representative of Mila" No? Alm literally has a speech that's 1 to 1 with Duma's ideals. He talks about man being strong without the need of gods. So that's incorrect, Alm does not represent Mila, Celica does. Celica is actively thoughtful of others and didn't blindly write off Rudolf as evil like Alm did.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

6 hours ago, Seazas said:

Simple, because the writers wanted to write Conrad to be fond of Celica. Nothing more, nothing else. Conrad saving her than leaving Celica to handle everything and constantly making a big deal out of her decisions only reaffirm how much he cares for her. How much hope and value he places into her life, that he can't afford to lose Celica. He can have faith while wanting to keep her safe.

Conrad has faith in Celica to save them, he wouldn't say that Celica is their hope if he had no ounce of faith in Celica to rule over them. Doesn't mean he has to be blind to everything, there's different nuances in faith. He's absolutely a consistent character, everything he's done lines up to his immense care and hope for Celica to guide them to a better future. It's why Conrad doesn't lead anything while Celica does, it's why he consistently acts for Celica to survive even if it means voicing a differing opinion. Him believing Celica can save them doesn't mean one has to believe everything she does is perfect, that's absurd.

I agree that Conrad is fond of Celica - and actually, that goes more into my own perspective of their relationship. Conrad acts to protect Celica, working toward what he believes to be her best interest, even if it's against her expressed will. He doesn't fully trust her, for instance, to defeat Dolth, so he follows behind. And when Celica chooses to sacrifice herself to save her friends, he intervenes so she doesn't have to make that choice. And tells her not to be so ready to sacrifice herself (you know, one of the strongest personality traits she exhibits). So his faith in Celica is, at best, tinged with reservations.

So, why does he want Celica to be the ruler of Zofia? My best guess is, it's not out of faith in Celica, but rather, faith in Halcyon. If Halcyon, the Sage who has taken care of him, told him that "Celica is a child of fate, she will save us, so you should protect her and make her the ruler of Zofia.", Conrad would have a clear motivation and rationale for doing all this. But we don't know if Halcyon gave Conrad such a mission - or, if he did, why he did so.

Edited March 21, 2021 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Missed half a line.

[Seazas]

4 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I agree that Conrad is fond of Celica - and actually, that goes more into my own perspective of their relationship. Conrad acts to protect Celica, working toward what he believes to be her best interest, even if it's against her expressed will. He doesn't fully trust her, for instance, to defeat Dolth, so he follows behind. And when Celica chooses to sacrifice herself to save her friends, he intervenes so she doesn't have to make that choice. And tells her not to be so ready to sacrifice herself (you know, one of the strongest personality traits she exhibits). So his faith in Celica is, at best, tinged with reservations.

So, why does he want Celica to be the ruler of Zofia? My best guess is, it's not out of faith in Celica, but rather, faith in Halcyon. If Halcyon, the Sage who has taken care of him, told him that "Celica is a child of fate, she will save us, so you should protect her and make her the ruler of Zofia.", Conrad would have a clear motivation and rationale for doing all this. But we don't know if Halcyon gave Conrad such a mission - or, if he did, why he did so.

Conrad is overprotective, him going out of his way to constantly look after her shows the full extent of how valuable her life is to him. Further highlighting and consistently lining up with the man claiming that Celica can save this world. She's done a lot for Conrad and everyone ever since she was a child. He trusts her to be the one watching over them with her motherly gaze, while everyone else does their best to keep her safe. Like how most queens and royalty function with their knights.

Conrad is allowed to have a functioning brain, if Celica makes a decision that he isn't sure about, then he'll speak out of care for her. Which is what he does all the time, and why he's still involved with Valentia post-Echoes if you look at his ending. Conrad never settled down with a woman, instead dedicating his life to the kingdom.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Seazas said:

Conrad already has a reason. He makes his faith clear in Celica and finds her fit to be ruler. Simple as that, you're trying to make a big deal out of nothing, he long ditched "being the rightful heir" when he hid his identity and did the coronation with Celica.

You know he actually didn't want to hide his identity, right? Halcyon made him do that. But leaving that aside, none of what you said actually answers the question. Why does he believe Celica is a more fit ruler than himself despite him having the better claim and both of them being in hiding?

[Seazas]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

You know he actually didn't want to hide his identity, right? Halcyon made him do that. But leaving that aside, none of what you said actually answers the question. Why does he believe Celica is a more fit ruler than himself despite him having the better claim and both of them being in hiding?

Still, him doing that coronation and placing his faith on Celica's shoulders disqualify him. Celica also has the brand and he doesn't.

Because of his inherent personality and him finding out someone as reliable as Celica is still alive. Conrad has shown to latch onto old memories and his connection with Celica if we account for the base conversations and support conversation.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Seazas

[Jotari]

29 minutes ago, Seazas said:

Still, him doing that coronation and placing his faith on Celica's shoulders disqualify him. Celica also has the brand and he doesn't.

Because of his inherent personality and him finding out someone as reliable as Celica is still alive. Conrad has shown to latch onto old memories and his connection with Celica if we account for the base conversations and support conversation.

Yes, Conrad clearly likes Celica. That's obvious. But it's not the answer. It's why he believes she is more suited to the role of monarch than he is. Because presumably he likes and is confident in himself too, there's certainly nothing to suggest he has any self doubt. We can come up with explanations like the fact that she has a brand, but the game never actually addresses it at all.

[Seazas]

3 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Conrad clearly likes Celica. That's obvious. But it's not the answer. It's why he believes she is more suited to the role of monarch than he is. Because presumably he likes and is confident in himself too, there's certainly nothing to suggest he has any self doubt. We can come up with explanations like the fact that she has a brand, but the game never actually addresses it at all.

He's fine with settling for a role of using his abilities to protect Celica, continuing to do so once Echoes is over. He clearly was satisfied with that since he doesn't even get a lover despite having admirers in his ending. Conrad had no need to pursue the throne or he wouldn't have done the coronation or at least have a different ending lmao.

[Ottservia]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Yes, Conrad clearly likes Celica. That's obvious. But it's not the answer. It's why he believes she is more suited to the role of monarch than he is. Because presumably he likes and is confident in himself too, there's certainly nothing to suggest he has any self doubt. We can come up with explanations like the fact that she has a brand, but the game never actually addresses it at all.

Does the story really need to though? I mean if you can come up with a reasonable explanation then I think it’s fine cause it’s not like it’s that big of a plot point or anything. It’s not like Vallite curse where a detailed explanation for how it works would make the story less confusing. The only thing something like that would add would be to add more depth to Conrad’s character. I mean granted he does need a little more fleshing out because as it stands he’s about as interesting as stale white bread(like the majority of SoV’s cast). But I dunno it just seems like a minor thing that wouldn’t change much even if it was added.

Like my philosophy towards these sorts of things is that if it doesn’t add anything of note to the story then it’s not needed. If it doesn’t add anything or make the story more interesting then I don’t see why it’s necessary.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Ottservia